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Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
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Thin LED strips running along the hoodline, if you could convince the DOT to sign off on that.
It is very convenient for a Sentor from AL, home to several auto manufacturing facilities owned by the likes of: Hyundai, Honda, M-B, to have the opinion that the end of GM, for example, is not a problem.
I'm not necessarily saying that it is a problem, just that the motivations of the bailout opponents are not necessarily completely pure and solely about what is in the entire nation's best interests.
Actually I had thought of that. But isn't Audi already supplementing their headlights with LED strips on some of their cars? Having a thin strip run along the hoodline seems like an evolution of the "light bar" that they tried with the 1986 Mercury Sable, and I seem to recall Pontiac trying to imitate it on the Grand Prix sedan in the early 90's.
:surprise:
It doesn't matter if the Volt looks like a Corvette because the Prius is a REAL car today and there are bunch of them running out there everywhere. According to the General, the Volt will cost around $35k with limited production, how the hell is that suppose to compete with the Prius? There is not doubt that the new Prius is going to be a regular in the top 10 sales list but I predict that the Volt is going to be a niche product at best if not totally irrelevent. If that's GM's way to one-up the Prius then I have to say: you are owned.
The Civic Hybrid on the other hand is a complete failure, everyone who has kept up with the auto industry, except you apparently, knows that. Civic Hybrid was Honda's Prius fighter but that didn't work and that's why Honda is bringing back the Insight which looks exactly like the Prius. People who are buying these hybrids don't just want to save gas, they also want other people know that they are driving a car to save the planet (I personally think that's stupid but hey, they are paying...). The prius may look like a toy to you but it is the best selling hybrid by a wide margin and that's something you really can't argue with.
A bailout is less likely before Feb. 1 and even then, I don't think GM will like the conditions that Obama will put on this loan.....i mean gift (who are we kidding, it will never be paid back). GM needs to act with some urgency like Ford did a couple of years ago. Ford realized what they were doing was not working and have a good chance of surviving and ultimately thriving. I think arranging a line of credit for Ford is a good investment. GM needs to start a survival plan that does not include a bailout. I would love to hear from Rick Wagoner what he envisions GM looking like in 5 years. From what I have heard from this guy over the past several months, he is no visionary and I do not think he has the ability to turn GM around. heck, you can make the argument that he is ultimately responsible for where they are now. That is the job of the CEO. Also he is worrying about people buying cars from a bankrupt company. I know I wouldn't buy a car from a company tha has the financial mess that GM is in now. Didn't Oldsmobile have their best sales year, the year following the announcement that they were shutting the doors?
My suggestion, File chapter 11 and then come back to the governement with your restructuring plan and ask for help. Get your Saturn's and Pontiac's before the big sell off!!! GM will not go out of business but they must understand that the status quo is not acceptable! To the UAW, you will lose jobs! You can re-negotiate your contracts now and lose 10,000 jobs or wait until GM HAS to file Chapter 11 and have your entire union disintegrate in front of you.
One last thing we keep forgetting: with all the new cars that have been purchased over th past 7 years, another reason demand is down is people don't necessarily need new cars. I will be in the market for a car in April. I'm looking a a used car. Why spend $20k-$25k on a new car when a $10k used car will do the same job?
Back to work for me...
Yeah, that's one thing that annoys me, too, that whole "wear it on your sleeve" mentality. It's not enough to "save the planet" but now they have to let the whole world know they're doing it! Next thing you know Prius owners are going to start inhaling their own farts! :P
I think the car is a great idea, but I just can't get past the styling. But to be fair, that ugly, purpose-built styling is the reason that the thing can boast midsized car room in a compact car package. It's narrower inside than a "real" midsized car, but it's still a very comfy 4-seater. And has a 16 cubic foot trunk. I think most hybrids that are based off of existing cars only have like a 9-10 cubic foot trunk. Heck, most regular midsized cars don't even have a 16-cubic foot trunk anymore!
The new Insight is definitely a Prius ripoff, but I think it's also more attractive looking. It just seems a bit cleaner and less goofy.
Sorry, but Honda already did...
Guess what, apparently the shape of the Prius is most aerodynamically efficient so Honda had no choice but to "rip off" the Prius.
Maybe the Big Three should just build their own Prius rip-offs and shut up all these idiots who complain the domestics don't have a viable hybrid.
I'd like to see Toyota maybe expand the HSD to include models like the Matrix or even something like the Scion tC in the future.
While it's hardly a sex panther, I think it's easier on the eyes than the Prius. Losing the rear quarter window in the C-pillar helps make it look cleaner IMO, although I don't know what that does for visibility. And I like the narrower, wider headlights, that give it a more aggressive look than that peeled back, "aging actress" look of the Prius.
Basically, you've already heard his vision of the future GM. Much like today's GM, but using government money to get by, and benefiting from slightly lower labor costs from the UAW contract that kicks in for 2010.
dtownfb: From what I have heard from this guy over the past several months, he is no visionary and I do not think he has the ability to turn GM around.
That's the understatement of the year...
dtownfb: Didn't Oldsmobile have their best sales year, the year following the announcement that they were shutting the doors?
Oldsmobile sold over one million vehicles annually (and that's just cars - no trucks or SUVs in the lineup) several times in the late 1970s and early 1980s. And those were mostly retail customers.
When GM pulled the plug on Oldsmobile in late 2000, sales were down to about 350,000 units annually, and a fair chunk of those were to rental car agencies.
After the announcement, GM was practically giving Oldsmobiles away to get people to buy them.
GM tries to hit a market and then misses it. I love the CTS but if you're over 6'tall you won't fit in the back seat. Tried an STS and it was marginally better. Why would you want to design a car to exclude so many people. I would have to buy a DTS if I wanted a comfortable (for me) Cadillac. Then there is the culture issue. My wife says I'm not old enough for a DTS. Buick is the same way. No matter what they do on advertisements, I still think of it as my Grandfathers car. It was the "premium car" in the 70's when I started to work for executives that didn't want to show off and drive Lincolns and cadillac's. Soon all Americans made enough that the premium to go from a base ride to a premium ride was not all that much. Families with two incomes now bought premium cars even though they were blue color workers. The lines disappeared, and that was a good thing, but the Big 3 continued to make all the choices, when they really were not any longer needed.
GM tries to push this culture. The insist that Pontiac is their performance brand, I love the interior size of the new G8, but I don't necessarily want a hot rod. I like the idea of AWD but it's in the cadillac that doesn't fit. I like RWD but for practicality need AWD or FWD. They have so many options but then package them in a way that makes even their main stream line of cars a "nitch" market car.
I drove a Camry Hybrid for the last two and a half years. Personally I liked the new body style. However the interior was bland and even boring. However other than change oil all I had to do was drive this car and averaged 37+ mpg in 63,000 miles. I've never had that kind of luck in the other 35+ new cars I've driven.
It's good to recognize people have preferences, and most people have to purchase a car that they at least like the looks. However our differences are what makes the market what it is or black yugo's are all any of us would need.
The successful company will market something that appeals to the masses. It will be attractive and reliable and fuel effecient. Then if they are successful they can afford to have a few offshoots and provid the nitch market cars of interest. However when a car company tries to survive without that base load and only provide the nitch cars I can't see them surviving if they want to be a Big 3.
I traded yesterday for a Highlander Hybrid. Does not meet all my expectations. I like the looks of a Tahoe but the bulk and comfort was lacking as well as the FE. I like the bling of an Escalade but the bling is not worth the buck's especially after depreciation., The Acadia is a consideration but I really don't want another 15 mpg vehicle.
There are a lot of things I like but I narrow them down to what it is that will fulfill my current needs and desires. Toyota has been good at analysing that in their marketing.
You can't effeciently be all things to all people. GM and Ford have tried to be that and it has cost them dearly. It's time to change.
Looks like the foreign brands have been offering incentives, rebates as well as dealer incentives, to move cars. This is the current list. link title
I trust it's correct since it's here on Edmunds.
I recall in years past Honda folks bragged about how Honda never had to use incentives like the US brands did because their cars were so good. However they did have dealer incentives that customers didn't know about. But since 2003 it's been downhill for the two main foreign brands and rebates.
2008 Toyota 4Runner cash low apr leases
2008 Toyota Avalon cash low apr
2009 Toyota Camry cash low apr leases
2008 Toyota Camry Solara cash low apr
2009 Toyota Corolla cash low apr leases
2008 Toyota FJ Cruiser cash low apr
2008 Toyota Highlander cash low apr leases
2009 Toyota Matrix cash low apr leases
2008 Toyota RAV4 cash low apr leases
2008 Toyota Sequoia cash low apr leases
2009 Toyota Sienna cash low apr leases
2009 Toyota Tacoma cash low apr leases
2008 Toyota Tacoma cash low apr
2008 Toyota Tundra cash low apr
2008 Toyota Yaris cash low apr
2008 Honda Accord low apr marketing support
2009 Honda Accord low apr leases
2009 Honda CR-V low apr leases
2008 Honda CR-V low apr
2009 Honda Civic low apr leases
2008 Honda Civic low apr
2008 Honda Element low apr marketing support
2009 Honda Odyssey low apr leases
2008 Honda Odyssey low apr marketing support
2009 Honda Pilot low apr leases
2008 Honda Ridgeline low apr marketing support
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't think the Civic hybrid is a flop - just not as popular as the Prius for the already mentioned reasons.
We've all figured out that virtually every manufacturer uses some incentives to move the metal.
It's undisputed that the domestics have been using much heftier incentives to move their vehicles than most of the imported marques. GM, Ford and Chrysler regularly use more incentives than anyone else, with a few exceptions (Nissan and Mitsubishi, if I recall correctly).
They also rely more heavily on sales to rental car companies, which further erode resale value and brand image.
you can print whatever you want about Honda and Toyota using special financing and rebates. last I checked neither one of their CEOs was begging to Congress to loan them money to stay in business. Also both are reporting PROFITS even in this market. they can afford to offer these incentives. Also their market share has increased. This is not a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".
I forgot about the fleet and rental sales. But Toyota has dumped vehicles as well into the rental fleets.
I"m sorry about your Ford and your Malibu.
>have to build cars that people are willing to buy without the use of special incentives.
I'm afraid that as things changed the rebate mentality is ingrained in many buyers' minds and isn't going away. Note the popularity of sales at certain stores as buying opportunities.
The decline of sales has been helped by the UAW's overpriced workforce and the company's having put money into that and retirements for healthcare costs for nonproductive workers instead of into higher quality interiors, e.g.
However the sales numbers decline because of more players with more cars in the market through the decades. It's a catch 22.
As well, the attitude is ingrained in people that it's great to criticize GM, e.g., for something because everyone "knows" they build bad cars. Similarly it's not good to criticize Toyota or Honda when they do (and they do) have problems. Note the reaction to posters with VCM problems, Toyota's shifting and transmission problems, and paint-chipping problems on Toyotas and how posters are treated by some of the gatekeepers in the discussions.
For the US car makers, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
A real solution would be to dissolve the requirements to use the UAW and allow the car makers to go through a reformulation without having to go through a chapter 7. Also getting rid of the overpaid bigwigs who have led them into the problems without enough management would be needed. However the members of congress campaigning in their questions in the hearings aren't exactly people capable of seeing into business methods and putting them straight; the congress people in front of the cameras that I saw epitomize state and federal government problems.
So perhaps it's best to just let them go away and take their lumps. The resultant unemployment and problems might be here by 2010 and affect the elections.
Honda rebates--Element, e.g.
Marketing Support
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Capitalism is about unabashed greed and profit. Recognize that from the start and things become very simple.
The HCH is a very very good hybrid and does exactly what it should do. However it's too easily dominated by the current Prius in so many areas that it can't be a success, ergo the new Honda Prius ( er Insight ).
The HSD version of the Matrix is the Prius!!! :surprise: Think about it. Both are 4cyl 5 door hatchbacks on compact car frames. They have almost identical room inside. When equipped as equally as possible the standard Matrix lists for ~$20400 while the standard Pckg #2 Prius lists for ~$24400. The key differences are the styling and the fuel economy.
There is talk of a hybrid coupe down the road when and if Toyota brings out a mini-brand of Prius'.
I wonder when they'll STOP lending us money? :surprise:
These guys need to be fired, period. If I were to make a case for $25B with that level of planning and presentation, I would have been toast!
Regards,
OW
Why doesn't GM copy Toyota and make a Prius???? Surely if we can put a man on the moon (remember that?) we can build a Malibu that averages 37mpg like my TCH did or a Cobalt that gets over 45 mpg.
I still can't get over the mass of people that think having a mid size car like a camry that can AVERAGE over 37 mpg is no big deal. It's achievable, I've done it. Why can't GM do it? Do it and I would buy it. However I fon't want it to be the size of an Aveo. I need to be able to use it.
Yes, America needs its own automakers. We also need our own electronic factories and farmers and banks and energy supplies tapped. We need to get back to being a world leader because frankly, the poeple that are currently heading towards world domination want to do just that, dominate the world. Only America has demonstrated that while "in power" we don't want to dominate others.
As far as indifference to customers, the Cadillac people treat me really well, so much that I'm almost uncomfortable with the kind of attention and respect they show me.
You are their breakfast, lunch and dinner! The problem is, you are in the minority and the economy will put a real hurting on ALL luxury brands.
Regards,
OW
No, they're not. Rebates are a very specific type of incentive. They were invented by Chrysler in 1975 during another severe sales slump. Marketing support to dealers existed long before 1975, and continues to this day. Rebates hurt resale value; marketing support does not.
So it can happen, but would I say that his dealership represents the make of car he sells? Not at all. He's not corporate. He hasn't made all the bad decisions that might eventually sink him.
In a sense, how one is treated at his dealership has nothing to do with the product's quality.
The cars they are designing, building, and engineering are far inferior to the competition from Germany and Japan. They don't have the same high dependability, reliability, gas mileage, fuel economy, nor power. They are crude and don't handle well. They are cheaply made, have cheap parts, and are generally very poorly assembled with terrible fit and finish.
Frankly, most people wouldn't buy from the BIG 3 even if they slashed their costs and their PRICES by 33%.
Too many have been previously burned, and the proof that they haven't improved one iota is that the BIG 3 management refuse to extend their warranties to match those of the Koreans.
Frankly, if Honda or Toyota went out of business and into bankruptcy, less than 1% of their customers could give one iota, because the warranty is basically worthless, since you never really need it or use it.
Since the Big 3's customers say 80% of them wouldn't buy from a bankrupt Big 3, it shows that they know the warranty will still be needed, time and time again.
If Honda offered me as little as $100 to forgo the warranty, I"d sign on the dotted line before they could finish asking me.
Let's see what they need by January 20th. At least the commute is getting cheaper for the CEO's!!! :mad:
Regards,
OW
Hyundai for sale
"What was once thought "unthinkable," that being Toyota cutting factory workers, many come to pass. In the 24 years that Toyota has been building cars here, they have never had to let anyone go. That may change as their sales continue to slump."
Toyota may be forced to cut U.S. factory workers
"Detroit is not a lost cause"
Ten Things The Taxpayer Should Know About The U.S. Auto Industry Now That They Own It
But many of the other points are valid, and one point is quite lame--that Detroit needs to earn "respect". Well that only comes one way---build better cars.
I think the point is very valid, I think many people vastly overestimate the significance of whatever reliability gap there still is.
Edmunds figures for maintenance and repair costs are one data point. Here is a comparison for one vehicle category...
For new 2009 models, here are expected average maintenance and repair cost totals for 5 years and 75,000 miles:
Fusion - $5075
Camry - $4915
Malibu - $4802
For used 2006 models, here are expected average maintenance and repair cost totals for the next 5 years and 75,000 miles:
Fusion - $6904
Camry - $6056
Malibu - $6225
These differences are a bit larger, but are much less than the purchase cost difference. For used 2006 models edmunds lists these average purchase prices:
Fusion - $10,872
Camry - $12,723
Malibu - $9,803
1. The time you will spend at the dealer getting your domestic car squared away with all the nuisance issues.
2. The amount of money the factory will spend (a closely guarded secret) on warranty work that you don't have to pay for.
3. The glitches, spits and sputters that you learn to live with.
4. The brutal hit you may have to take on resale value.
Again, I don't think American consumers are idiots. They shop for the best product for their needs. They vote with their checkbooks and the votes are reflected in market share statistics.
If someone can explain any OTHER plausible (please, no conspiracy theories) reason why Big Three market share keeps going down, fire away, I'm listening!
Even in compacts the domestics have been very very uninspiring. Neon? Escort? Cavalier? The Cobalt is the small car that drives like a big car, no thanks. Caliber? What a bad joke. The Focus is a little better, but the newer Civic and Mazda3 were much better.
I don't tend to just buy the very cheapest thing I can get in the right size, I like to spend more if necessary and buy the best one, and the domestics have never offered that in small and very small cars. I don't see that changing, with the exception of the Fiesta which will be on my short list in 2011.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Car buyers drive the domestic product and you know, it's not bad. So they think it over, and then try out the foreign competition.
After the test drive, many of them end up buying the foreign car, even though the domestic car might cost less (especially in the mid-size and full-size sedan category)
It's also interesting to me that this DOESN'T happen when they test drive pickup trucks, as a rule, and they'll stick with the domestic product even after the test drive.
It's not that the domestic products aren't improving---they ARE!
But.....the foreign cars are improving as well, year after year.
If the foreign manufacturers all suspended their research and development for 3 years, and kept re-selling the same product until 2012, Detroit would be in great shape I think.
I'm sold!!! I love the smooth ride of a big car! I don't want to have every pothole or expansion joint knock the teeth out of my head or feel like I'm about to be blown over on my side by a passing semi truck!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)