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Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
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You can't have it both ways...on the one hand spending gazillions of dollars in advertising and image-building to turn Americans into product-happy consumers and then on the other get angry when they choose the better product value over the inferior one? Do we slap the hand of every Wal-Mart shopper who picks up the shirt made in China rather than Indiana?
did I miss something here? Is it my responsibility as a citizen to insure Ford a profit no matter what they build?
Gee, we could protect our cars from foreign invaders...we could be....FRANCE! :P
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
Down, boy! Down!
Shudders at thought of us all running around in LeCars....
I understand that the subject generates a lot of heat. Let's hope some light comes of it.
Wish I had the answer for how we try to reestablish some real industry in this country but it's late here on teh East Coast and I'll have to sleep on it...
But they are also an excellent and juicy target. They're seen as predatory, driving out small town business. I won't deny that, but I can also tell you that many many other stores do this as well. Examples: CVS Pharmacy used to be Revco Pharmacy here, and Revco drove out a local brand of stores called Hooks. Revco was then bought by CVS. Now we only have CVS. We used to have a great small chain of hardware stores here too called Hines Hardware. Family owned, extremely helpful. But Ace Hardware popped up a mile or so down the road. The local Hines closed. Then an Ace popped up 2 miles down the road from another Hines. And so on and so on. Buffalo Wild Wings ran out some small bars and eateries here. None of them are nearly as tempting a target though as Walmart, but they've done equal or more damage to the number of alternatives here.
As far as the product goes, all their shirts are made elsewhere, but when I bought some shirts at Kohls the other day, they were all made in Guatemala or Pakistan (a country known to be harboring Bin Laden within their borders).
As a nation, we're extremely capable of turning a blind eye to anything inconvient, but then inexplicably torture others.
Point... it's easy to jump on the bandwagon. Especially when it's about GM or Walmart.
What a fascinating discussion. It kind of examines the issue of globalization head-on.
To respond a bit to Shifty's original post, I'm not sure we should see the writing on the wall just this minute for the domestic automakers, but I agree that a lot of it is there. Before we waste billions and billions more of taxpayer dollars bailing out this industry again and again in the next 20 or 30 years (and you just KNOW that at least 2 of the 3 are headed for bankruptcy court at some point, which hurts everyone inside and outside the companies and serves little long-term good), I would like to see some sort of government-directed reorganization of the Big 2.5 into the Mega 1.
The folks who still bleat on and on about American jobs and patriotic this and that have to begin to accept that the only way that Ford and GM will survive the next decade or two is by offshoring most of the jobs, unless the UAW decides to just pack up shop and disappear into a hole in the ground (care to bet on that outcome anyone?! ;-)).
So, Mexico and parts of eastern Asia and beyond, here come Ford and GM factories. In the new economy it's all about the money. And just as we have one of the last two big airplane builders in the world, Boeing, I would like to see us have one of the last 5 or 6 big carmakers in the world. The massive consolidation of the last half century isn't done, you know, and now that this industry is properly globalized, that process will culminate with the existence of maybe a half dozen, maybe as many as 8, automaking conglomerates. The more I think about that, the more I am convinced that only one will be American, because the trend of the next 50 years will be for the importance of the American market to fade on the global scene.
Which brings me to an even further-ranging thought: as our economy becomes more and more focused on information services and large-scale investing, I think we ought to be mustering up our financial resources at a high level so that they are not just shed needlessly until we don't have the power to regain them.
So, I would like to see some sort of forced restructuring that merges GM and Ford and allows for the shedding of the very large parts of both enterprises that are money-losing, especially as they relate to labor issues, so that they can take on the rest of the world. Because whatever you may think of the "Way Forward", GM's 5-year plan, and the Cerberus buyout, it is still the case that none of these 3 companies can see their way out of the forest yet. MAYBE GM can see its way to a place where they won't be losing any more sales, and can break even in the North American operation, and that's about it - the other two can't even say that. And while it would have been nice to get this restructuring started BEFORE these companies were all dead broke and operating on borrowed time, it is still better to strike now and not wait for the bankruptcies, and the further disintegration of supplier networks, and whatnot.
Seems to me like it's now or never.
BTW, I'm not totally married to the idea that America needs to have the "Mega 1" automaker I am describing, certainly not for the security reasons some have cited here. But it does seem to be a matter of national pride to some extent. And if operated well (a huge if) it could be a source of significant revenues flowing into the U.S.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
These days, it seems the quality of the merchandise, the atmosphere, and the clientele has greatly diminished over the years. Low price isn't everything to me. You usually find you get what you pay for.
Unless you buy a Sonata or Santa Fe. A good chunk of that money goes to Alabama.
When I buy a Chevrolet, I know that the money is going back to corporate in Detroit
And corporate thanks you for your money, then sends it over to China so they can have a full-size RWD Buick Park Avenue while we get reheated leftovers.
He's out of jail now, and there was a lot of South Korean politics involved in putting him there in the first place.
Which engineering and design department are you funding? Detroit or Tokyo or Seoul or wherever else?
Depends on what you buy. GM has farmed out development of small cars to South Korea, midsizes to Europe, RWD cars to Australia, etc. Meanwhile, Toyota and Nissan have US-based teams developing products solely for the North American market.
I would not step foot in a WalMart 10 years ago. We do go now for 3 things. Shampoo, wild bird seed and Purina Cat Chow. All made in the USA. It is the only place around that I can get the 50LB sacks of bird seed. My daughter worked there for a year. It started out as a good job. It went down hill from there. She went back into the title/escrow business. She took the WalMart job to work part time while my grandson is in school. It was fine for a while then they started playing games with her schedule. So she quit. I would not recommend them as employers. Costco pays better and has better benefits. Costco also sells higher quality products including their name brand. I was sad to see the local stores get run out of business. I guess that is the progressive way.
In WalMart you are hard pressed to find any kind of assistance when looking for things. Lots of clueless bodies wandering around the store.
They have about as low a turnover rate as you'll find in retail.
But I think the real nail that's killed off the mom & pops is that the big box stores generally have more liberal return policies.
Now imagine that the car dealer lobby lost their clout and the franchise laws were changed to permit Wal-Mart to sell cars. Then we'd really see a shift of auto production to China. :P
The other thing about Wal-mart is that they can let one store operate at a loss long enough to eliminate any local competition. Kind of like when a large manufacturer takes a loss selling one product to displace a smaller competing company.
I think nippononly made a good point...it's really the American consumer who is making choices here....not ALL the choices of course, as the consumer is being manipulated left and right...but still...he/she is no dope...the consumer walks up to the product, hefts it, looks it over and basically says "I like it and the price is right for what it is". They want a Timex---they know it's not a Rolex.
What they DON'T want is a Timex at Rolex prices.
It's not that American cars are "inferior" per se, but the whole package....mechanics, styling, appeal, status, price, resale....in that sense they do seem inferior over all to the majority of foreign competition. At least consumers seem to think so, as the Big 2.5 market share dwindles year after year.
RE: ASIAN automakers --- China and Korea and Obscuristan better learn one thing...without swiss-watch reliability and a comprehensive roadside assistance program, they aren't going to succeed in America---not a chance in hell.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
But part of the loss of market share is due to changing consumer preferences (recently caused by increasing gas prices) and another part is do to a reduction in the dumping of vehicles into rental fleets.
You might find one American model that is superior in THIS but deficient in THAT, or type A Buick better than most and Type B Buick worse than most....however it all shakes out, it shakes out to less market share.
MrShiftright
Just Visiting
Try signing the paperwork at Costco. For even more fun, go to a dealer's big tent sale, agree to buy the most expensive car on the tarmac and then try signing the paperwork there instead of going to the dealer.
Most dealers won't do that since a tent isn't their normal place of business and the three day right of cancellation rule could kick in, just like on a door to door sale.
You'll likely find, as I have, that there are people who on first impression you don't like but after a little back and forth there's some good exchange of ideas.
Is '00 a typo...17 K mi in 7 years???
I hear that and I'll give you an AMEN.
Resale is falling regardless of manufacturer, as the market becomes more and more flooded. (There was a temporary blip upwards recently in resale values, but for the most part I think my statement is true).
I personally don't find anything much to love among the current offerings out there: they all have the new "bathtub" styling with belt lines so high I can't rest my elbow on the window sill or see out properly any more. They have all been cheapened to the point of no return on the inside. They have all put on so much weight that most of the driving experience is lost to remote control, even as fuel economy totally stagnates.
I say this even as I BOUGHT a new car this year, but even that happened to be the second of two of the same model I have owned. And it is basically my second choice in an auto market where my first choice simply isn't being offered.
If 2 out of 3 of the American automakers simply went kaput, I realy wouldn't miss them. Right now I hope those two are Ford and Chrysler, neither of which has ever offered anything I would remotely want to buy, and seem to continue offering all the same old schlock with most of the issues I named above.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What's interesting is that Hyundai sells plenty of cars into fleets also, and if you're willing to part with the 100K warranty and take the 60K one, then some of those year old rental Sonatas can be excellent deals
I guess the Sonata might become the new Taurus- the quintessential rental car. (assuming Toyota doesn't start dumping Camrys into fleets; for a while they dumped quite a few 05/06 Camrys into fleets)
The domestics weren't the only ones to chase visions of gold by building bigger vehicles.
The mistake the domestics made was in putting the lion's share of their efforts into the bigger vehicles while ignoring the smaller segments
They, or at least Ford, did not completely ignore smaller cars. The Focus was top rated by CR, based on their road tests, when it came out in 2000. I think subsequently it has always (or nearly always) been rated average or better in reliability. Yet, while sales may have been okay, I don't think it has ever been a profitable vehicle for Ford and certainly never generated the profits that F-150s and SUVs did. Ford, like everyone else, is in business to maximize profits not sales volume.
This is one of the main criteria for my car purchase is to support/buy American, such as it is. The second is fuel economy.
However, the US auto makers don’t make it easy by producing low mileage cars and totally disregarding the diesel as an option for passenger vehicles.
They push ethanol as the “alternative fuel” with the end result of driving up food prices, etc., etc. Now I spend more for gas AND food. Gee, thanks :mad: (The US auto makers are not totally to blame for the push to ethanol, but they are right up front on the band wagon touting its alleged virtues.)
You're generally viewed around here as a reasonable guy, nippon but really - you don't give a rip if Ford & Chrysler die? Whether or not a Mustang or a 300 ever appealed to you - the American economy, and possibly Canada and some of Europe depend so heavily upon these manufacturing jobs, that the demise of these two companies suddenly would throw this continent into a grave depression for years! You don't have to buy American ever, I own an Escalade made in Mexico, a Lexus made in Japan, and an Explorer made in the USA - so I'm not an extremist - but I do not want these companies to founder - and if buying their product would assure their success, or was necessary for their continued viability - I would do it. In fact, you may have just turned me a little more toward a Buy American stance. I don't like what the UAW and CAW has done to this industry in America - and they don't get it. But the companys MUST survive.......for America to survive.
Chrysler's got one foot in the grave anyway...and the other one is in the air.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
I think if the U.S. surrender's it's manufactoring base we will lose our know how and capability's of building products. I know the automobile industry is just one segment to the manufactoring basein this country but if it goes away what's next ???? We are the only major industrialized nation that does zilch to protect our workers and business. :sick:
-Rocky
Anderson Analytics took a survey of 1,000 college students from more than 375 universities and discovered that many of them don't know where a car companies country of origin is. A third of the respondents thought Lexus was American.
More than half of them thought Hyundai was Japanese, and at the same time, two-thirds of them think Korean products are no good.
Almost half thought Volvo and Saab were German, and more than half thought Land Rover is American. Which, technically, it is, but probably not in the way they meant it.
I guess the big 3 can go to hell and it's ok. A full 1/3 of our country would think that Lexus would be left standing. I think that one about Hyundai is hysterical. Reminds me of the guy I saw running around in a new Altima w/ a bumper sticker saying to boycott the French.
Hey, Rocky, where youse been, man????
Seems to me if a government is willing to let the individual go down if he can't hack it, they should let a business go down if it can't hack it, or conversely, everyone gets propped up. Subsidizing Ford rather than say health or education sounds pretty short-sighted to me at any rate, as it seems based on the past not the future. I don't see nationalization as a wise expenditure of national treasure and I don't see The Big Three remaining profitable enterprises in their current form.
We would have to put on the table THIS rather uncomfortable thought:
That, perhaps, the culture of the Big Three is such that they are condemned to mediocrity---that is, from the Top, they don't know how to compete anymore.
A similar situation could be found in British management of their auto industry in the 1960s--80s. It's not unheard of that a corporation becomes concretized and unchangeable.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
So THAT'S why Bush doesn't want to withdraw from Iraq! Ah HA! It's not terrorism, and it isn't even oil! He's found a way to subsidize the Big 3!
There are many threats to any industialized nation's status quo. Peacetime can radically change an economy, and drive it into recession. Perhaps consumers will revolt and not want to buy as much in the future due to some environmental/spiritual revolution---who knows?
But right now right here we have an ailing auto industry and nobody's doing anything about it it seems except writing new slogans and taking money out of one pocket, putting it another, and calling it "productivity".
Makes me worry actually. A rational transition beats a collapse every time. Who's going to face this and do something to make that happen? Or does GM, Ford and Chrysler have to end up like Triumph, BSA, Enfield, Norton, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Alvis, Aston Martin, MG, Jaguar, Rover....a bunch of cripples put up on the global auction block and re-packaged as some other country's goods? Hope not.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
More than half of them thought Hyundai was Japanese, and at the same time, two-thirds of them think Korean products are no good.
That doesn't indicate much. Lexus WAS American until a year or two ago. Hyundai has established itself as a maker of good Asian cars, so that translates into many people's minds as "Japanese" since Hyundai, Samsung, LG, etc. haven't been making good stuff long enough for South Korean manufacturing to gain a positive reputation here.
The thing that makes GM and Ford different is that they have large operations outside the home country that are doing pretty well and can carry the load for a while (but not forever), and if worst comes to worst the shrinking, money-losing North American operations can be jettisoned to save the rest of the empire.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host