Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?

imidazol97

>all now made in third-world toilets

That was the case I understood from many years back. We had a Toshiba, which had Zenith parts in it, and it lasted and lasted. That won't happen with more recent things. It's the same with refrigerators and washers/dryers. At the parts counter for a freezer coil thermostat replacement that I found had gone back in our 6 year old (Name brand not important) refrigerator, the guy said I didn't want the newer washers and dryers from another (Name brand not important) common brand to replace the 12 year old ones I have at home; people are coming in all the time now for parts and with problems. They're not made to last.

Imagine how good these electronics products could have been if the US brands had been allowed to prosper instead of having been driven out of business by dumping in the 70s and 80s.

gagrice

Does anyone know if Zenith TVs are made in US for sure?

Zenith moved their production to Mexico in the early 1980s. They were the last USA made TVs. When I worked for RCA in the 1970s they were getting their TV chassis from Japan.

I think you will find most electronic (computer module) devices in our cars are now built in the Pacific Rim. You know the parts that cost $1000s to replace after the warranty is gone. These modules probably cost the auto maker a buck to build for a given model. Then 6 years later it becomes a jewel that sells for whatever the market will bear.

louiswei

I am really more interesting in which companies are "American owned" or headquartered in America. This is more comparable to "buy domestic" since many GM, Ford and Chrysler models are built outside the country anyway.

If what's important is "made in America" then many import models such as the Accord and Camry should pass the test without any sweat.

gagrice

If what's important is "made in America" then many import models such as the Accord and Camry should pass the test without any sweat.

I would agree, as long as the employees are paid comparable to current domestic car maker's employees. I do not expect HonToy to buy into all the open ended entitlement programs that are hanging around the necks of the Big 3. When I say comparable I mean a good living wage for the area. With health and retirement benefits. The future for our people under 40 in this country is BLEAK. Very few companies are offering good retirement programs. If they have a generous 401K that is good. At least 6% matching would be a good starting place, with a bigger percentage as the employee ages.

lemko

Funny. Some of the older employees who are eligible are going to seminars for retirement this week. A young guy who just started made a comment that retirement is probably a pipe dream for people his age, that he'll probably be working until he's dead.

gagrice

Anyone working for a company without a retirement program will be working till they drop dead. My step father worked till he was 78 and died two years later. He only had Social Security and could not live on it. It will only get tougher as prices go up and wages stay stagnant.

rorr

"It doesn't matter whose name is on a television these days - Zenith, Sony, Magnavox, etc. They're all now made in third-world toilets."

It doesn't matter whose name is on the TV? Doesn't all the profit that Zenith makes stay in the U.S. even if they are manufactured overseas? I mean, even if they're all made in third-world toilets, don't you think it's worthwhile supporting that American corporation that is using foreign labor simply because they're an American corporation?

And how might this apply to the American auto industry?

If Sony had a US factory using US labor, while Zenith was simply headquartered in the US yet they used cheap foreign labor......whose TV would you buy?

bumpy

all of our wealth going over seas never to return..

Most of it does return, in the form of Treasury bonds.

gagrice

That is a good point. WHO owns America? I understand a big part of the money we used to buy Middle East oil with ends up in US investments. Sure they build fancy palaces and drive silver plated Audi cars. The bulk of that oil revenue ends up in a bank in NYC.

w9cw

Zenith is now owned by LG - Lucky Goldstar of Korea. See this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenith_Electronics

fezo

Hasn't had any connection to the United States for ages other than that they sell their product here. Same for RCA and Sylvania. Don't fool yourself. They bought up the company specifically so people would be fooled into thinking they were buying American.

Sony, on the other hand, made picture tubes in the US until the market for those went away. I believe they and Toshiba have US plants but I;d have to look further to confirm.

I agree that I'd like there to still be a domestic auto industry but am hard pressed when the choice is between a GM or Ford built in Mexico or a Honda built in the USA.

qbrozen

If Sony had a US factory using US labor, while Zenith was simply headquartered in the US yet they used cheap foreign labor......whose TV would you buy?

Sony. They are employing my neighbors, friends, relatives, and even strangers, who then support the local economy.

Other than paying taxes and employing a limited amount of overpaid figureheads, I can't think of what good the "american" company is doing.

rorr

"Zenith is now owned by LG - Lucky Goldstar of Korea."

I'm not in the slightest bit surprised. Lucky them....

My mom and dad actually owned a Zenith COMPUTER (early 80's). Yes, Zenith built computers for the US market for a while.

gagrice

Zenith was sole source for certain types of computers to the Government in the 1980s.

Zenith was a great name at one time long ago. Hopefully names like Chevrolet and Ford do not end the same way.

fezo

That is the shame about Zenith. They were absolutely terrific. Good quality that lasted forever. Heck, my dad only finally replaced his old Zenith TV from 1975 a few years ago. They were forced out of the market because they could not build Zenith quality material and price competitively. One would think we would learn from that.

rorr

"Sony. They are employing my neighbors, friends, relatives, and even strangers, who then support the local economy."

You mean you are able to look past what the shiny piece of chrome plastic says on the decklid.....I mean, under the screen?

Huh....imagine that.....

qbrozen

i wonder if companies like honda and toyota put a big sticker on their cars of the american flag that says boldly "made in america" it would change anyone's buying choice (be that to choose or not to choose to buy it).

rorr

Probably not many - I mean, for those who are buying and who actually care, stickers are already on the window indicating % of domestic content and place of final assembly.

Like it or not, I think that 95% of our minds are already COMPLETELY made up on this issue one way or another.

imidazol97

>forced out of the market because they could not build Zenith quality material and price competitively.

That's because of the dumping by foreign electronics companies at below their cost into our market.

daysailer

"stickers are already on the window indicating % of domestic content.."

But they are not very meaningfull since Canada is counted as "domestic".

lemko

We had them too at my workplace!!! They were a little better than dumb terminals. I remember when we finally got PCs running Microsoft Windows 3.1. It was like a quantum leap in technology.

lemko

I remember a lot of great names that were dragged down into the mud. Maybe Zenith should be renamed Nadir to reflect the real quality of their current products. I had an old Proctor-Silex toaster that was so solid I once dropped it and it left a dent in the floor. My girlfriend had a recently manufactured one that was made in China. It was a crappy piece of plastic and the crumb door fell off when she first took it out of the box. It lasted all of six months. She replaced it with another Chinese-made piece of junk. If you want a decent toaster these days, you can get a $350 one made in the U.K. at Williams-Sonoma.

I still have an old G.E. can opener that once belonged to my Grandmom. It was made in the U.S.A. and is so sturdy you can cave somebody's skull in with it. Too bad it's an ugly 1970s green.

qbrozen

the problem is, most people don't know to look there for that information. If you told all the joe schmoe buyers on a lot that they could see domestic content on the window sticker, i bet 95% of them would be surprised.

fezo

The dumping charges that are constantly heard would make more sense if the price of electronics went up after the American companies were driven out of business, but they didn't. They went down.

The loss of Zenith gives me no pleasure at all but its cause goes beyond simple dumping practices.

Toasters - you want a good toaster and don't want to spend a lot of money? Go check out Ebay and enter something like Sunbeam and T. Turns out that for decades Sunbeam made these Ts - they have model numbers like T-20, T-40... - and you get folks (lots of old tinkerers) who find them, fix them up and sell them.

You would be astounded by the build on them! They were built to last forever. You can pick one up for $20 or $30. Added bonus - on mine there is no lever. The bread goes down on its own and rises back up when it is done. I remember this from when I was about 6. I thought it was magic.

bumpy

Does a toaster really need to double as a wrecking ball? I and most people don't see any need to pay extra for 10 pounds of cast aluminum or whatever they made those old bombers out of, which is why those things aren't made any more. $350 to toast bread... :confuse: :sick:

m6vx

The dumping charges that are constantly heard would make more sense if the price of electronics went up after the American companies were driven out of business, but they didn't. They went down.

Ah, but the price of electronics keeps going down! You get more speed/memory/etc for a lower price as time passes. That's the economics of electronics. ;-)

lemko

Cool. Gotta check it out! We had an old Royal vacuum cleaner from the 1940s that just kept going and going and going... I understand you still can get a Royal of this excellent quality. The Kirby also seems pretty sturdy but is expensive as heck.

fezo

If you liked that vacuum you'll love the toaster. As a bonus it it's a nice piece of art deco design.

andres3

We haven't done anything right in this country with automobiles, we have no business making them!

lemko

...was import any of those Japanese electronics or vehicles. I see them both as foreign species as destructive as the gypsy moth caterpillar. All they have done is devour our industries and leave destruction in their wake.

qbrozen

hahahahaa.

yeah, you're right. we could instead be completely used to deplorable quality. it would simply be status quo. after all, you can't miss what you've never known.

rorr

"All they have done is devour our industries and leave destruction in their wake."

Yeah! How dare they offer better products at a lower price! That's just not FAIR!

And you just KNOW that as soon as the last domestic automaker is put to rest by those sneaky guys, they'll do JUST what they did with the electronics industry.....KEEP improving their products and lowering their price!

Oooooooh, it's all a nefarious plot, I tell you.....

british_rover

Can you imagine what kind of cars we would be driving if the Japanese had not forced the domestic automakers to innovate. We would all still be driving giant dinosaur like vehicles that get 10 mpg, handle poorly, look strange, and are way too expensive...

OMG we would all be driving Hummers. :surprise:

lemko

Feh! I don't remember domestic cars really declining in quality until AFTER the Japanese car invasion. Maybe the domestic manufacturers were starting to build their cars DOWN to the Japanese standards as they saw the public would actually buy these ugly little insects. Wait 'til they actually succeed in killing off the domestic auto industry. They immediately close all their NA factories and move 'em back to Japan or maybe to some low-cost country like Malaysia or Thailand. You'll then be paying $50K for a strippo Camry with all the quality of an '87 Hyundai Excel.

As far as electronics, many of the best high-end stuff is still made in the United States. I guess you guys are happy with the crap from Best Buy and Circuit City.

lemko

Are you kidding? We'd be driving AWESOME cars like Hemi Road Runners, SS Impalas and Malibus, and Boss Mustangs. We'd also have drop-dead gorgeous Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams, Imperial LeBarons, and Lincoln Continental Town Cars. Heck, we'd even have beautiful Plymouth Furies, Ford LTDs, Dodge Royal Monacos, Pontiac Grand Villes and Chrysler New Yorker Broughams!!!

WE'D ALSO HAVE PLENTY OF GOOD WELL-PAYING JOBS AND FAR LESS POVERTY, DRUGS, AND VIOLENCE

nippononly

"i wonder if companies like honda and toyota put a big sticker on their cars of the american flag that says boldly "made in america" it would change anyone's buying choice"

That's funny - you reminded me of Subaru, which used to do just that with all the Legacys and Outbacks from the Indiana plant. It was a big waving flag stuck in the back window of every car that said something like "proudly built in America". I wonder if they still do that.

I bet it would change a few minds, but not many these days, especially on the coasts.

The car industry is a lot less diversified than all these other examples being mentioned. In a more diverse market it is easier to swallow up the small fish or force them out of business. It takes a pretty wild scenario to envision that happening to ALL THREE American automakers. Maybe one, pooooooossibly two, but not all three.

bumpy

Awesome is in the eye of the beholder. I see a pile of big giant barges that look pretty standing still. Most people didn't drive those. They drove smaller, plainer barges that were slapped together with all the care one would expect from drunken hobos. Tokyo didn't order the UAW to sabotage the production lines.

I'd trade your entire list for a first-gen NSX-R without blinking, but I'd still keep my truck.

qbrozen

hahahahaha!

man, you keep cracking me up!

so you think, if not for the japanese, the gas shortage would have never happened? The epa would never have forced CAFE on the nation? you ARE joking, are you not??

qbrozen

I guess you guys are happy with the crap from Best Buy and Circuit City.

you've got to tell me what exactly you are referring to. I really have no idea. Is there an American TV I am unfamiliar with?

My 2 main TVs are a Pioneer and a Westinghouse. You'd think those are american, wouldn't you? Both purchased at Best Buy, by the way. Yet, all the little components inside are made in Taiwan. Hmmmm.....
boy, there are more parallels to the auto industry here than I would have thought possible!

lemko

There was no "gas shortage." It was orchestrated by OPEC and Big Oil and they were laughing at the whole country the whole time.

lemko

I said earlier it doesn't matter whose name is on a TV these days. They're all throw-away consummables made by third-world children under abominable working conditions.

lemko

My first car was a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe 6-passenger station wagon - hardly a luxury car, yet it lasted for over 24 years. It's exponentially more likely that I'll see a surviving 1973 Chevrolet Nova, Ford Maverick, or Plymouth Valiant than a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. So much for the smaller, plainer barges argument. Now if you talk about Pintos and Vegas, I guess they're just as scarce as contemporary Corollas and Civics. They are all disposable throw-away cars.

imidazol97

>Japanese had not forced the domestic automakers to innovate.

I'm trying to figure out how they innovated. The Japanese makers built econoboxes with the minimum of parts and options. The US makers (wrongly) didn't build econoboxes. Americans bought them in the early 80s, late 70s, for their economy. Power steering. Nah. Power brakes. Nah. Radio. Maybe. Size. Nah. Don't need it for one person. Good gas mileage. Yes. Auto transmission. Nah.

It was much later when the econoboxes began to grow in size (remember the narrow wheelbase cars with wide bodies... tottering down the road on narrow tires because they were cheaper to put on...) and they began to offer the options that US makers had available in larger, and more expensive cars. But with more options come more chances for failure. The Japanese did well with keeping failures to a minimum.

Wasn't it in the 90s when Honda finally put in a V6, they were forced to do so to be competitive as they moved to larger cars. I'm sure others can follow the chronology and interplay much better than I can.

I wonder where we would be if the US makers had built small, small European like cars in the 70s for the fuel crunch, artificial or real... Would the invasion have occurred?

bumpy

True in absolute terms, but the survivor percentage might be different. I can't remember the last time I saw any domestic midsize older than I am on the road: one guy has a late '70s Nova with rims and a motor swap, but that's it. No Mavericks or Valiants or any of that utterly forgettable dross. Even the '80s domestic midsizers are rare beaters now.

british_rover

That was kind of my point with the HUMMER joke. The US automakers did innovate to some extent and did build some good cars but on the whole they always seemed to be a step behind the Japanese. Instead of learning how to build good small to medium sized cars they just built big trucks/SUVs instead. Yes there were some good domestic cars from time to time but overall they were not as good as the Japanese.

My 1989 Pontiac Bonneville was a great car but it was an exception not the rule. Those H-bodies in general were very good cars. Much better then the average domestic car.

Are they equal now? Yeah, probably about equal except when it comes to compacts or sub-compacts. The domestic automaker never figured out how to make a good small car. Saturns to some extent were good cars but again always a step behind the Japanese equivalent. I think the Neon could have been the great small domestic car but Chrysler kind of dropped the ball on it.

Still perceptions are just as strong if not stronger then reality and people have long memories.

bumpy

I wonder where we would be if the US makers had built small, small European like cars in the 70s for the fuel crunch, artificial or real... Would the invasion have occurred?

Not in the '70s, but when the invasion did occur the domestics would have ruined themselves to the point of committing collective suicide like the British auto industry did. Japan saved the domestics from their own fatal ineptitude.

british_rover

First V6 from Honda would have been for the Legend back in the late 80s and then the NSX for 1991.

If you want to get picky about it that was Acura though so the first V6 for Honda was the 1995 Accord.

andres3

WE'D ALSO HAVE PLENTY OF GOOD WELL-PAYING JOBS AND FAR LESS POVERTY, DRUGS, AND VIOLENCE

I don't know about less poverty, that Dodge Neon I had almost sent me to the poor house! However, the Dodge dealers and other mechanics I went to did quite well, including the tow truck companies around Sacramento, CA.

Mr_Shiftright

You'd think from hearing all this that the American consumer didn't shoot the Big Three down with a huge NO THANKS and didn't buy boatloads of Japanese cars out of preference.

But we can't rewrite history because there are too many hard numbers out there, and we were all witness to the biggest, meanest, baddest consumer boycott of American product in American industrial history in the late 70s and 80s. It was truly an unparalled event. Perhaps not a CONSCIOUS boycott, but one of brutal power nonetheless.

American cars were out of touch with consumers' wants and needs in the 70s and 80s and that's why they almost went bankrupt. Were it not for strenuous government intervention (some of which I agreed with, BTW) I'm sure they would have all gone bankrupt, completely. Detroit was clueless as to changing American tastes and preferences.

Japan said: "oh, you want more of THESE and fewer of THOSE? Okay, we can do that!"

Detroit said: "oh, you don't like THOSE? Tough, that's all we got...here's one in a different color!"

british_rover

Detroit said: "oh, you don't like THOSE? Tough, that's all we got...here's one in a different color!"

Exactly...

"You can have any kind of car you want as long as it is ponderous and inefficient.