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Does America Even Need Its Own Automakers?
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I bet that's not true with a lot of defense contracts. I think a lot of countries that purchase military weapons or planes require big offsets of foreign investments in that country or a co-production arrangement. At least EU ones seem to. I wonder if Airbus got bid points that way. The "Airbus" tanker will be partly built (~40% iirc) in Alabama. Maybe they'll steal work from some of the Mercedes-Benz suppliers down there.
The offsets are a rich source of bribery btw. link
So, CR is the ONLY rag that counts, eh??? edmunds means nothing, MT- nada, C&D puhleeze.
We've got people on other blogs that think BMW S&$Ts ice cream, even though their reliability is subpar. Why??? C&D, MT, R&T, etc.
Why is it there seems to be a double standard for American cars???? Not reliable like the [non-permissible content removed]. The ones that come close aren't sporty& refined like the Germans. Corvette?? Not as cheap as the Koreans. What gives?????
You also need to look at those publications as two different groups. There are the buff books and the consumer guides. Buff books like Car & Driver only care about how it feels when you push the car around the track; long-term reliability and resale value are minor players in their ratings. On the other hand, consumer guides like Consumer Reports cares more about cars as transportation and appliances.
According to buff books, American cars aren't as much fun to drive (aside from the Corvettes and Mustangs of the world).
Bob Eaton is the guy that sold out Chrysler. He retired, with a nice severence package, a year or two after the "merger of equals".
I really don't believe (anymore) that domestic car companies embody a culture of success---certainly there are MANY people within these organizations that do have this goal, but I think the prevailing monolithic monster they call GM, Ford or Chrysler is genetically designed to be mediocre in overall execution. I can't explain it any other way, that it never seems to get any better. No sooner do the Big Three improve, then their competition improves even faster.
Well, time will tell as far as cars like the Malibu, G8, CTS, and Lambda CUV's are concerned.
Scott
How are the best, new American cars doing?
Styling? I think they are generally as good as the competition (finally)
Reliability? Still a question mark vis a vis the Japanese. If you go by the last 5 years in Consumer Reports, it's not good enough. It's simply not good "overall". either CR is making stuff up out of thin air, or there's something still wrong here.
Dealer service? Nothing to write home about. But then, whose dealers are?
Interiors? From what I've read, still not quite up to snuff compared to direct competitors from Japan and Germany. But better than before. Corvette and Cadillac especially took the hint and upgraded.
Depreciation? Most models don't do well after 3-5 years. But neither do most of the Koreans, nor Jaguar, Saab, etc. Still, you can take a big hit on a domestic car.
So, we have some gains and some ground left to cover, looks like.
Funny if you include Italy in there they make the original AXIS OF EVIL lol.
We beat them in a conventional war, but who's winning now lol.
Seriously, somebody should make a car with Italian design, german engineering, japanese manufacturing and call it the Axis. That would be an unbeatable car.
Or maybe the Karman Ghiata.
I can name a few but definitely the Lexus dealers.
Respectively, the Big 3 make more cars, make more parts, have more engineers working on R&D, have more dealers and have more interest and infrastructure in the United States than any car manufacturer selling cars over here. It's a fact. Just look at the listing of plants that the Big 3 have on Wikipedia, or on their own corporate websites - the info is readily available for anybody. GM has over 80 plants in the US alone - I think Toyota has about 10 or so? Sure, the American companies have plants in other countries, but so does every major manufacturer. Moreover, the Big 3 DO INDEED employ designers and engineers in the United States - as well as in most other large developed countries - just like all of the other multi-national car companies.
Bottom line - these are important companies, that contribute quite a bit to the overall US economy. Who cares if they don't show a profit on paper (for now) - they still employ thousands of Americans and support hundreds of vendors - most of which are located in the United States.
Honda and Toyota build a few models here, and do indeed make a contribution to our economy - but not in the same kind of numbers that the American companies do. They seem to get way more credit for it than they really deserve.
GM has 80 US plants to produce ~3 million vehicles, while Toyota has 10 plants to produce ~1.5 million vehicles. Think about it. :sick:
Happy to say, some young people are still interested in American cars. A young lady who works with me is interested in buying a Dodge Charger.
Not every single plant that GM has actually assembles cars you realize - GM also has stamping plants, parts plants, engine plants as well as assembly plants all here in the United States. Toyota mainly has just assembly plants here in the US. Many of it's parts, stamping, engine plants and so on are in other places - so your argument is totally moot.
:confuse: It's not 1985 anymore.
Don't get me wrong, Toyota builds a good car, and they certainly make a lot of money and put some of that back into the US economy, but not in the same way GM does.
Moreover, when you buy a Japanese car - much of that revenue goes straight back to Japan, where the money gets sent back over to us in the form of loans - which they make a lot of interest on - ultimately Japan (and China) will have more control over our economy then any of us are going to like - it could make for a very sour situation (especially when they want their money back, and we don't have it). This may or may not stop me from buying an imported vehicle - hell, I buy so many other things that are made overseas, who cares, right? But it IS some food for thought.
Despite where any of these cars are built, I still like to support the Big 3 when I can, and I'm of the belief that after many years of mediocrity, they're actually putting out some damn fine cars - like the new CTS (built in Michigan btw), and the new Chevy Malibu (built in Kansas) and the new trucks (not only built in Mexico, but also built in Indiana).
Let's face it - our country is changing dramatically - we aren't a growth market anymore for cars. Toyota may add a few factories here, and GM may take a few away as their market share goes down more, but the real growth for all of these big car companies will be in what once was considered "Third World" countries. That's where a lot of these car companies are really going to start building factories.
" Who cares if they don't show a profit on paper"
I say:
the stockholders (me). :P
How exactly then does a huge company stay in business by losing money and market share? My tax dollars as a subsidy?
I don't THINK so.
Why can't the Big Three compete toe to toe with the world after so many years of trying?
As you can tell I am so FRUSTRATED by the lackluster performance of the Big Three that I can't help but wonder if they are serious about being #1.
What GREATER guarantee of jobs than to produce excellent cars?
As for "which country makes the best cars" argument, I think the American car buyer has voted on that, and it wasn't the Big Three.
I've had one big problem and maybe one little problem with Honda (over the course of 5 vehicles). Honda was very responsive.
When I had a problem with Ford what a different story! They made you feel like a leper for reporting a problem and gave zero remedy.
Probably everyone will agree, however, that when it comes to poor customer service no one comes near Volkswagen.
Example: I started a business in Durango a few years ago, I employed a bunch of guys, I bought a lot of supplies from local businesses, and I contributed to the local economy - I didn't make very much money - it was a start up business. Same idea.
Of course, if GM goes away, so does all of those local economic benefits - but do you actually think Toyota is going to swoop down and save the day? I don't know, but my thoughts are it wouldn't happen overnight
Another thing - GM and the other 2 are not asking the Government for a subsidy or a bailout - they just want a fair and level playing field and they also want what a lot of Americans are asking for - subsidized health care - which would benefit a lot of other industries (I don't necessarily agree with that - I'm more of a Ron Paul guy). And don't kid yourself - Toyota and other import car makers get HUGE subsidies for building plants in the South. It's not a huge secret that the import car companies lobby Washington big time for tax breaks and subsidies - of which we're all paying for. (the Big 3 do it too) - We'd all be sick if we knew how much money was being funneled to not only car companies (import and domestic) , but just about every other company that has an interest in making a profit in this country.
Your question about not being able to go to toe to toe I have no response to. You'll have to write a letter to Rick Wagoner or the other 2 CEO's on that one. My quick answer is greed and quick profits on truck based SUVs for so many years. But to give the Big 3 credit (where you don't) - I believe the products they produce now are very good, and right on par with many of the import products.
Which country makes the best cars?
Well, it's how you want to define "best" quite frankly. I'm not trying to be a penis about this - but how do you want to define that? If I buy a late model Buick Regal, and it lasts 250,000 miles - provides years of trouble free service but doesn't corner or accelerate like a 3 Series, which may or may not cost as much to maintain, but certainly costs a lot more to buy, then who got more "value"? It's a function of priorities.
Value wise - it's a toss up - American cars can be bought cheaper than Japanese cars, and some of them actually do last a long time - I think your better off with the American car. If you don't mind paying a little more, and resale value is your big thing, then the Japanese cars are a better value. This will change over time, as the Big 3 cars improve, and less of them are sold, they'll go up in value. I also think there will be a big push internally with these companies to have their dealer networks turn in their used car sales reports on time , which also influence used cars prices. That has been a disaster for the Big 3 ever since they took outside reps away a long time ago.
Keep in mind too, Toyota's quality isn't what it's all cracked up to be - even the CEO of the company has said as much.
At the end of the day - The Big 3 shouldn't be written off. They know their treachery, and I believe they're correcting their mistakes - maybe not quick enough - but they have a huge perception problem to overcome. It should happen - hopefully when the economy starts turning around next year, we'll start seeing auto sales go up for every major company.
As for the "best" cars, my motto has always been:
"the cars that sell the best in a free market are probably the best, because....American buyers are not stupid. "
What re-inforces my belief in the above is that Americans will pay MORE for a foreign car with the same content as an American one. They must see some other form of value, don't you think?
I also call it THE CHECKBOOK WARS
Really, how else can one judge success?
hmmmm... PT Barnum disagrees.
However, I do have to jump on that "what is the best" bandwagon. By your definition, it would be a Camry, would it not? That is not something I cannot agree with. But if you said "what is the best souless appliance for getting from A to B?" well then maybe I'd have to agree your definition may work.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Certainly a Camry is no more soulless than a Buick or a Malibu.
It's good to have an open mind, and accept every country and culture for what it is, and Japan certainly has a wild if not fascinating history. But when I think about American pop culture, and how the automobile influenced the way the United States grew and developed during the 20th Century, I prefer to give nameplates like Buick and Chevrolet a lot more credit than Toyota for molding those thoughts. As open as I am about the rest of the world, I am biased towards the US, despite some of our shortcomings, because I was born here, and I live here. I dunno. If you took away our insanely stupid politicians, this would be the best country in the world, hands down.
In a sad way, I actually think you're right - most of the current Buicks and the Malibu don't have soul - and I think GM has done that on purpose, because they're seeing that people aren't necessarily buying cars based on style and character so much anymore. Personally, it's sad.
oh, no, of course not.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You're kidding, right? At what point, exactly, do you believe they were following rather than leading? Your 57 Toyopet is a good example to start with. What were the American manufacturers producing that you think this copied? And when they were "coming into their own" and making small, efficient, FWD vehicles, what were they copying then?
Just like you said in your closing paragraph, it is the american manufacturers who are following the foreign makers. Not because they want to, but because they must.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And when they were "coming into their own" and making small, efficient, FWD vehicles, what were they copying then?
European cars.
I was referring to the american manufacturers the original poster mentioned. :b
the early Celicas clearly ape a contemporary Mustang.
Hmmm... well, certainly not "clearly" because I don't see it. Just because it was a rear drive coupe? They were smaller cars with smaller engines and superior build. Heck, you could say it was more like a bimmer than a stang.
As far as certain design elements ... well, 2 things: 1: 99% of cars had similar design elements in the '50s ... then again in the '60s, 70s, 80, and before that in the '30s, etc, etc. 2: A tiburon steals some elements from Ferrari ... Personally, I'd never say Hyundai is even trying to copy, compete, steal sales, or do anything even remotely like Ferrari.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Our food prices are going up our fuel prices are going up and our wages aren't going up to match. Isn't it about time we start to think about cutting our losses and do something else the Japanese do? Maybe we should restrict imports like they have for years? Choke off supply of foreign imports and you will create demand for domestic produced products over night. One advantage the US has is we can be self supporting. We could easily balance the cost of oil by raising the cost of exported food. By decreasing imports we could lower the unemployment in our own country significantly. We can protect our fishing by increasing our coastline out to 250 miles like many others have and protect those areas as only the last superpower can.
Remember this is all hypothetical anyway? But one way we survived the depression was to turn inward and try and solve our own problems. Or we can do nothing and just sit back and watch like it seems our government wants and for the most part our own people. Of course it wouldn't hurt if we decided not to try and protect the rest of the world. That could save us a trillion or two to help lower oil costs and improve the housing market. Without out US jobs it is hard to sell Us houses.
Relax, is is only cold water.
If imports are banned or restricted, GM will definitely revive the cavalier since there are no competition. Take it or leave it, suckers!
There were once over 1,500 car companies in America, obviously too many, and they've been shaking out ever since Day One.
If not letting the Japanese and Germans build our cars, how about having just ONE BIG CAR COMPANY, but smaller than the Three are now?
That way, the ONEBIG MOTOR CO. will compete solely with the Japanese and Germans, and not with each other----they say competition is healthy but this doesn't seem to be the case with the Big Three---they fight each other over old models designs, like this "retro" nonsense, whilst the foreign companies bring in new and innovative ideas.
If the Japanese build our cars, how do you guarantee they get built here???? What would stop Watanabe from saying screw you and taking all the jobs back to Japan???
Let's face it, even in the worst of times, America will purchase about 10-12 MILLION NEW CARS, every year. That is alot of money to be sending overseas in the form of profits. At least with ONEBIG making cars here, and profits staying HERE, people would be able to vote their conscience w/ their pocketbooks. I wonder how many people that own Corollas and Camrys would go elsewhere to buy a car manufactured HERE, if they pulled production of those 2 and sent them back home??? How many have purchased them previously because they can say that they supported American manufacturing???
But we could survive as a third world nation because we can produce enough food to eat. We don't "need" their cars and we have a large enough military to protect ourselves. We have the natural resources to manufacture all we need and when the smoke clears we would still be here and our people would be working.
I realize this idea is out there but it wasn't a serious forum question to begin with. No we don't need our own car manufacturers if we are ready to totally trust another country to provide our vehicles to us. But then again we don't need their vehicles either. We "can" provide for ourselves. The US has used embargos to protect itself before and the government still has the number one responsibility to the people in the US first and everyone else second.
Lets be honest none of what we have been talking about is going to come to pass. we have just been speculating on one big global family each providing what it does best with no national interests ever showing its ugly head. So the Japanese will do away with their rice industry because we can provide rice in larger quantities and for less money. And the Japanese will stop rice farming because we do it better? The Us and the rest of the world will have free access to bid on construction projects in Japan? China can't compete with us in technology so they will stop trying to copy Intel and AMD products and import them all from us and assemble the computers for us.
I have simply given the counter point. Each country will be looking out after number one if the economy continues to slide. If we enter another great depression I wouldn't be surprised if the US shuts its doors and looks out for itself first. we need our own auto manufacturers because we can't trust anyone else to help us if things go to pot. Remember we shut things down during the great depression so this wouldn't be anything new.
This recession should pass and we will be talking about it as a close call in a year or two. But I don't think we will ever look at our lives in the same way as we used to. It might be time to consider when happens when we allow our manufacturing to be shipped out of the country. Americans out of work can't buy cars built by Japanese here or in Japan or anywhere else.
Things more than likely will not change in our lifetime because we simply don't trust each other enough to let our guards down. To even think that every other country will give up doing what another country can do better or for less money is interesting when view through rose collored glasses. But with those glasses we might see peace in the middle East and the price of oil will be cut in half.
You're not going to get the average American to buy what they perceive to be an inferior car, based on their sense of patriotism. That is no way to run a car business. It sounds like an act of desperation to me at any rate.
So I wouldn't count on it.
I guess if you banned all foreign cars from being sold in America, that would work.
I am not talking patriotism I am talking survival. The Stock market is taking a nose dive. Housing is down and every indicator says the Auto industry is next. When faced with a depression America starts to look inward for survival. When the dollar falls cars made in other countries start getting pretty expensive. So do we even need our own auto manufacturers? Don't know, do we need the jobs? Most of us don't care one way or another we just like cars. But for all of the UAW workers working for Ford and GM and all the homes they support and the differences between how the Japanese and Americans feel about retirement I think the answer would be we should keep all of the jobs we have.
Remember you said this was just an exercise. Who knows what Americans would do if we were convinced we were in an economic war of survival? All my experience tells me if things get as bad as they are predicting people will start getting nationalistic and you will hear the words, "it is them or us." Lets just see if cars sales fall off anywhere near as bad as housing has? If they do my prediction is the doors will start closing. Unless we are being lied to and things aren't as bad as they say. That has happened before as well.
Viola! Harley listens to THE WORD, does make a better motorcycle which cannot in any way outperform a Japanese superbike, AND sells it for more money than the competition!!
How on earth? In Harley's case, they fired their customers and found new ones. They made riding a Harley respectable and they polished that "outlaw" image so that it would fit smartly on Everyman.
Very clever. Brillaint actually.
Can the Big Three do this? Maybe, even though the scale is so much larger? Sure, why not? They COULD make a better car and get out of the cellar in Consumer Reports listings year after year...or at least get more than one car in the top 10.
They could "fire their customers" like Cadillac and Corvette is doing as we speak now, and like Oldsmobile and Thunderbird tried to do and failed to do.
Surviving requires imagination. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of it in Big Three boardrooms at the moment. They sit at big oak tables, they wear nice suits, they talk great talk----but comes the accounting day?
Nothing seems to change.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/03/07/entering_the_- repossession_lane/
"Lenders, meanwhile, are cracking down. GMAC Financial Services, the country's largest auto-finance operator, recently tightened its underwriting standards to authorize fewer subprime loans and also increased its collection force to work with customers who are late on auto payments."
This is like the guy who wants to lose weight by eating fewer Whoppers every day. If they want to fix this thing they have to stop writing subprime loans altogether.
If this is going to keep picking up steam, which I believe it is, it will be great for those of us who might be in the used car market and have our economic house in order. Prices should decline as more of these hit the market and fewer people are buying.
The 1976-77 Celica fastback is a 3/4s copy of a 1969 Mustang fastback. The similarity between the cars is far too strong to merely be the result of Toyota using design elements that were widely shared among all cars.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and Ford had every reason to be flattered by the first Celica fastback.
And the original Celica coupe used the Mustang formula - take sedan underpinnings and cover them with a sexier two-door coupe body (with long hood, short deck, and a close-coupled passenger compartment) to keep the price low while creating a car that is accepted as "all new" by the public.
That ONE BIG CAR COMPANY sounds suspiciously like British Leyland, and we all know how well that one worked!
Mr_Shiftright: That way, the ONEBIG MOTOR CO. will compete solely with the Japanese and Germans, and not with each other----they say competition is healthy but this doesn't seem to be the case with the Big Three---they fight each other over old models designs, like this "retro" nonsense, whilst the foreign companies bring in new and innovative ideas.
I doubt that a combined company would compete any more effectively with the Japanese and Germans than GM, Ford and Chrysler do now. The only way this would work is if the new company could shed divisions and dealers, close factories and void the UAW contracts. GM and Ford have too many divisions and dealers, and shedding those would, in turn lower sales to some extent, which means laying off UAW members (who, under the current contract, go into the Jobs Bank, and receive pay and benefits regardless of whether they are working, thus making labor a fixed cost to be spread over the sales of fewer vehicles).
If the merged company does not address those handicaps, then it will not be any more successful than GM, Ford and Chrysler are now.
The problem with British Leyland was the management. The basic idea might not have been bad. Management was thoroughly incompetent.