Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

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Comments

  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Dodge Ram has actually gained in what is considered a down market for PU trucks."

    Yeah but didn't Chrysler have to offer even more incentives on the Ram in the month of June than Toyota offered incentives wise on the Tundra in order to move Rams out of Dodge dealers lots?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svtruck.asp

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=121824

    Is it me, or does anybody else get the feeling people aren't diggin' the new Silverado? :blush:

    Seems like another new truck has caught there fancy.

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    REAL truck drivers are smarter than the average buyer. They do not jump on the first year of any vehicle. Wait till the bugs are worked out in the 2nd or third year. A lot of Tundra buyers would have been smart to do that. How many engines and transmissions did you change this week?

    By the way a 1/2 ton PU is not what most real truck drivers buy. They get 3/4 ton or 1 ton diesel trucks. Check the stats if you don't believe me.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Wow, I'm surprised to see the Lincoln LT outsells the EXT Escalade. Both are pointless but still...

    Oh, and the Silverado is just plain fugly. Haven't seen too many of those pigs in N.E. thankfully.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-planning-to-trim-back-production-of-pickups.html

    General Motors' all-new pickup trucks have been facing tough competition from an equally-new Toyota Tundra, as well as heavily discounted Dodge and Ford models. GM's heavy duty models, in particular, have seen the biggest drop in sales, due in part to high gas prices, according to the automaker. Now, GM is looking to slow down production at its Pontiac, Mich., plant in order to reduce the automaker's unsold inventory.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Looks like all those "REAL truck drivers" are going to have fewer choices.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    maple2: I look at the article more in depth and also realized the Aura had far less equipment, so half of the price discrepancy is explained by that.

    Shame on Edmunds for saying it would take 18 years to break-even when they're not comparing similarly equipped models.

    The Aura was $23k, you can actually get a Camry hybrid for $27k, not 30 plus. 30 plus gets you a loaded up leather model like Edmunds tested.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Gosh, how much erroneous opinions can you cram into one paragraph? The goofiest statement is this one...( this really cracks me up )..

    The Camry failed to impress anyone except Motor Trend.

    Uhhhhhh, the record number of buyers taking delivery each month don't count?

    Based on this statement alone the rest of it is....
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The facts are in. The biggest segment buying the new Tundra are previous Tundra owners. It looks like they did steal a few from the Titan. How many upgraded from smaller Tacomas etc? Dodge Ram has actually gained in what is considered a down market for PU trucks. That leaves a very small amount of turncoats from GM & Ford.

    I have the facts. Wanna see them? It's not pretty?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The Camry doesn't impress me but then I am about as far away from the intended Market for a Camry as I can be.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    "The Camry doesn't impress me but then I am about as far away from the intended Market for a Camry as I can be."

    Albuquerque?
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I'll probably never be in the market for a Camry, but the car is fine, it serves its intended purpose and people are still buying them in droves year after year.

    Must be doing something right...
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I'd be very interested in them...
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Nah I took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

    If I am going to get a practical family car then it is going to be something that is fun to drive and hatch/wagon body style.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Oh, say a Mazdaspeed 3?
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yup or the new Clubman. I loved my old MINI and if the clubman drives about the same I will be all over it.
  • advequityguyadvequityguy Member Posts: 138
    Since the other guy is busy trying to find good news about Tundra sales, I figured I'd post some numbers that might be a little more factual.

    Here's some from the Automotive News:

    Sales of Big Pickups, January through March

    2007 2006
    GM total 200,505 191,375
    Ford total 173,879 203,399
    Dodge Ram 91,313 90,386
    Toyota Tundra 29,186 31,825
    Nissan Titan 18,847 21,277

    Here are some randon quotes from various news sources:

    Toyota Motor continues to increase discounts on its new full-size pickup, the Tundra, another sign that it is not cutting into the profitable truck market as much as rival automakers had feared.

    Analysts say they are surprised to see such heavy incentives on a vehicle that went on sale less than two months ago, but Denise Morrissey, a spokeswoman for the automaker, said that such offers were “just part of how you do business.”

    So far the Tundra, which was redesigned to be bigger and brawnier, has fallen short of its publicity. Toyota, known for its commitment to vehicle safety, suffered a mild embarrassment last week when the federal government gave the Tundra a four-star rating in frontal crash tests — one star fewer than all competing models made by Detroit.

    Changing everything, baby. Changing everything.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Through March? Was the new Tundra even available that long ago?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    ...through March? What the heck does that prove? The thing came out at the end of January, they weren't even on dealers lots in numbers till February. Yay, so sales didn't blow up right out of the gate, big deal. Everybody knew that.

    Doesn't seem very reliable or pertinent to what is happening now. ;)
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I thought it came out in February.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    LOL!!

    Yes, those numbers are factual but outdated. You do know that the new Tundra debuted around February of this year right? So basically the number you posted for Tundra is largely consisted of by the old Tundra.

    January through March...

    Cracks me up. :P

    Hey, if you got some January through June numbers I'd be more interested.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That means the new one wasn't available at all for half that time period. It's more of a measure of how the outgoing model sold as it was being discontinued.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    Since it doesn't matter what's happening now... ;)
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    That was just like Hummer boasting about the huge increase in sales for the hummer line as a whole and the H3 the other year.

    What they failed to leave out was that the H3 was only available for a few months the year before so they were comparing a few months of sales to almost an entire year of sales. They also conveniently left out that when you only really sell one model, the H1 doesn't count as it never sold in large numbers and was being discontinued at the time, when you introduce a second model of course sales are going to go up. All of those H3 sales manged to make up for the lost H2 sales and them some at least temporarily.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Focus, man! We are talking about January, before the new Tundra was for sale. ;)

    :D
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    2nd quarter (April-June 2007)

    F-series 181,559
    Silverado 158,181
    Ram 93,944
    Tundra 59,654
    Sierra 51,503
    Titan 14,226
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Fine! January it is... lol

    If anyone is looking for me, I'll be at the ski slopes getting a few runs in...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's see...

    1st Quarter 29,186
    2nd Quarter 59,654

    Nah, no increase there. Just over 100% or so. Mumble mumble.
    The Tundra is DOOOMED I tell ya! LOL :D
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Much appreciated :thumbup:

    The Tundra is still a ways from matching the "big boys" in sales but beating out the Sierra should at least be a confidence booster...

    What the heck happened to Nissan? :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. It won't happen overnight but I doubt Toyota's bean counters are disappointed with a 100% plus increase from one quarter to the next.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    What the heck happened to Nissan?

    The Titan is near the end of its model cycle, and the reliability problems on the early ones scared off a lot of people who might have bought one otherwise.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    The Tundra happened.

    I wonder if Toyota can get to 500k with the Camry. They're over 240k going into July. The new Accord could hamper it, but a couple more 50k months may seal the deal. :blush:

    DrFill
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    For the 6 months ending in June....2007 vs 2006 sales

    F150........ 355K vs 400K ... -45K
    Silverado.. 339K vs 335K ... + 4K
    Ram........ 185K vs 183K ... + 2K
    Sierra......... 99K vs 102K ... -3K
    Tundra....... 83K vs 57K .... + 26K
    Titan.......... 33K vs 39K ..... -6K

    Totals...... 1094K vs 1116K .. - 22K

    It appears on the face of it that the planned contraction by Ford ( closure of Norfolk Assembly ) is driving buyers to Toyota. Some of the Toyota buying may be pent-up demand by current owners but from comments here and at TS the new Tundra may be just too big for most traditional Toyota owners. It's right in the wheelhouse of the Big 3 buyers though.

    But here is the scary part as regards GM. The 2007 sales figures above while almost dead even with last year contain a significant portion of 'Classic' GMT800 sales! IOW while the GMT900 which debuted last Sept is a much much better vehicle, to many, thus far it is not selling as well as last year's outdated GMT800.

    So what is it about the T900 that the buyers don't like?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    There were better fire sales last year, not that they could compete with the Employee Pricing giveaways of '05. And GM is lower incentives this year.

    Looks like the 5.7 definitely caught the domestics off guard, and when people hit the Toyota lot, that's all they really care about.

    I personally liked the '06 Silvy style better. But the interior is quite car-like (if you like GM cars), and light-years better. :blush:

    The '06 Tundra was quite car-like, and that didn't win it any awards. Truck buyers want to know do you have the guts.

    DrFill
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Wow, rock and roll! Nice to see the Tundra picking up. I had a weekend with one and I can understand the draw, the 5.7 is a monster of an engine and the engine/tranny combo work really well together. Those are some impressive sales gains...

    As a Ford guy at heart, I must admit the Tundra has struck a chord with me. It looks great (as opposed to those fugly GM'ers IMO, especially the Chevy) and the power and smoothness are top notch. Toyota really did their homework with this one... But to me, it's not so much as how impressive the Tundra is, its that the next F-series has a serious challenge that they must at least match or outdo with their next generation. Knowing them, they definitely can do it because when they put real effort into something, they tend to field a top notch product. But the Tundra has really gave me a new respect for Toyota, in general.

    They deserve the success they are having wih it. :shades:
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    But will only get a warmed-over update next year. Too bad.

    The Ram should send at least 400HP, but Chrysler redesigns haven't been going well at all recently. :lemon:

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So I guess that means the LS600h with its $125,000+ price tag will add a cool $54,000 hybrid premium for the 2 MPG gain in mileage over the LS460L. How many millions of miles will the payback be on that hybrid from ToyLex?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You feature adjustment calculations recently. Or been to the Lexus site, either. :(

    Now do your homework!

    DrFill
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ehh well according to this review the LS600HL doesn't really get any better gas mileage then the regular LS.

    Conspicuous Consumption With Green Illusions
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I guess that is what drfill was referring to. I was giving the LS600h the benefit of the doubt. I heard most of the pre-orders were cancelled because of the poor showing on the mileage. Who wants to be the laughing stock at the country club?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I heard most of the pre-orders were cancelled because of the poor showing on the mileage.

    Source(s) please.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How is this? If you believe a Lexus salesman. I am sure you can get one if you want it. This from a prospective buyer.

    I was just talking to the salesman at my dealer and he told me the following rather startling story: He asked me if I wanted to order a Nieman-Marcus edition of the LS600HL. At first I thought he was joking. But he was serious. I responded by stating that there is no way I could get one even if I wanted one since they are all sold out. He said that they were all originally "sold" but evidently there have been cancelled orders (I think he said 180 orders cancelled).

    cyclone4, "Lexus LS 600h/600h L" #319, 15 May 2007 11:03 am
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    gagrice,

    So what your are really saying is Lexus, was trying to charge (not just electric current :P ) the customer and make them believe they were doing their part for the good of the enviroment by gettingbetter mpg's when in reality they were actually throwing good money down a drain. :confuse: WOW !!!!

    -Rocky
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Than a German V12, with similar power, is wrong, Lexus doesn't want to be right. ;)

    If you want to talk about throwing money down the drain, check posters at your local GM thread for more information. :blush:

    DrFill
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, gagrice, you have proved one thing: There are canceled orders for the LS600hL. And according to the Lexus sales man there are 180 orders canceled out of something like 3000, that's 6% my friend. I don't know what's the average percentage for all pre-order that has been canceled industrial wise but 6% seems a small amount to me.

    However, gagrice, you still haven't prove that all canceled orders are due to the gas mileage.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The doc is right...

    If you guys want to compare the gas mileage between LS460 and LS600hL, then might as well comparing the following:

    750i and 760i
    S550 and S600

    The more "reasonable" gas mileage comparison should be:

    LS460 vs. 750i vs. S550 (all V8 engine)
    LS600hL (V8 hybrid with V12-like power) vs. 760i (V12) vs. S600 (V12)

    Let's stick with apples to apples here guys...
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I would rather have the Jaguar Super V8 over any of those.

    Just as reliable as the Lexus, light weight all aluminum body, simpler supercharged V8, handles better, equal highway mileage and unique styling instead of a S-Class knock off.

    I don't care about the AWD as I would not be driving a 100,000 dollar vehicle in snow anyway.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "Just as reliable as the Lexus"

    Wow, really? Not questioning this nor being critical but do you claim this based on stats like JD and CR or is this something you are seeing this on the dealership/service dept. level? Are you seeing a low frequency of warranty claims/ unscheduled repairs on these cars?

    I've just never known them to be that reliable, let alone on the same level as a Lexus.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    I think the Jag is a more viable used car option to compare to lexus than the Germans, based on overall quality, ergonaomics, and cost of maintanance.

    Never really see them down south at all.

    DrFill
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