74 back on the latest VDS survey which sounds big till you that is problems per 100 vehicles. I will take a chance of .7 more problems with a car to have a much better driving more engaging drive.
Then you have to figure in all the extra complexity of the AWD and hybrid systems. The jag is a simple RWD platform with a proven ZF 6 speed automatic that goes in nearly ever BMW, Jag and Land Rover.
My former Land Rover service rep is now also a Jag/LR service rep and he would put any Lexus up against the new jags for quality. This guy used to be a Peugeot/Land Rover tech and has been in the business nearly 40 years so he knows a thing or to about good and bad vehicles.
"My former Land Rover service rep is now also a Jag/LR service rep and he would put any Lexus up against the new jags for quality. This guy used to be a Peugeot/Land Rover tech and has been in the business nearly 40 years so he knows a thing or to about good and bad vehicles."
Sounds like a reliable source. :shades:
I recall the brand scoring well in the quality surveys, shame they don't gloat about it in their advertising...
the headline in Auto News this week about Toyota joining the Detroit companies to lobby against the legislation to increase fuel efficiency? I was very disappointed to hear about that, and Toyota's official line of "this hurts our competition too much, and we just don't want to see them at any more of a disadvantage" is paper-thin and no longer really holding water with me. Nissan and Honda, of course, did NOT join this effort.
This could be Toyota's strike three, as far as I am concerned. Already they have all but abandoned fun, sporty models, have almost done the same with stick shifts in favor of automatics, and have had too many quality glitches and obvious cost-cutting efforts in the last 5-10 years. My current Toyota may be my last. :-(
I'm lucky I have Honda and Subaru to fall back on, not to mention I will likely give GM (in the form of Saturn) another shot before too much longer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My wife still has an issue with the Hyundai name, and I've been trying to convince her about this for years.
Interestingly, our next door neighbor has twin boys, and they just bought a pair of matching Elantras. Well, at least the colors are different.
So it'll be interesting to see how they enjoy those. I'm sure we'll get periodic feedback. Their parents have had Volvos, Audis, and a Benz, so I was surprised to see a pair of Hyundais suddenly in the driveway, in fact I thought they'd moved out!
It sounds a little GM, but make a SCion-like brand based on affordable spoty cars. Make a $16k, a $22k, and un under $30k sports car, and package them as a new brand, with under 100k sales a year.
Obviously they can make a new brand, and do it right.
Obviously the Toyota brand can't sell sporty cars properly. The public doesn't want a sporty Toyota. People don't go to Toyota for sports.
Build from the ground up. :surprise:
The basic car needs to weight 2500lbs, with the Camry engine, and some type of tuning (Not Scion tC).
The next car has the Camry V6 (if it is matable with a manual), and offer a limited slip, trd suspension, and stay under 3100 lbs.
And then you have your Supra/Hybrid/Turbo machine that has 350HP for under $30k.
Target 75k units a year, and go from there.
I know! Let's come up with a fantasy name for our new sports division! Names for the new cars! :shades:
I don't. The last Celica was a dog as far as sales were concerned and so was the MRS or MR2 as they called it for our market. The Supra would be nice to have back but it wouldn't be a volume seller. I want more bland looking appliances like the Corolla, Camry, and Avalon. Those are the cars that buyers want and I want to sell. Mackabee
Hehe, you know what's funny? I don't know if you made that comment tongue in cheek or not, but I doubt Toyota will miss me, even though more than 1/2 of all the vehicles I have owned have been Toyotas (and 3 out of the 6 I have bought new). Toyota has begun to have the classic attitude that they share with most of the big-box retail stores in the States: "You are a single customer, so go if you want. We don't really care because we are just THAT big!".
So go, we will. My family has been almost Toyota-exclusive for the last 30 years, but the last 3 cars they have purchased included a Mazda3, Honda Civic, and Acura RSX. Not a Toyota in the bunch, and they are very satisfied with their purchases.
And Doc: GIVE ME A BREAK! You don't need to invent a whole new brand to sell sporty Toyotas. Toyota has a long heritage of sporty models. It's just the last 10 years they have forgotten that. Serve up a couple of really good sport models, and the buyers would flock to Toyota dealerships.
The problem, I think, goes deeper. Look at the press reviews of EVERY sporty model Toyota has introduced in the last decade, including the ones where Toyota's own press release said "this is it! We have come roaring back! This is the sport model to end all sport models, we are going head to head with BMW, Nissan, you name it!". Without exception they are criticized as numb, over-nannied, and unexciting. This includes most of the Lexus cars now including the sport models, and also the sporty variants of every one of its Toyota models. Not to mention the latest xB and probably the xD when it arrives.
Does Toyota even remember HOW to build a truly exciting, involving sporty car?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think that people that buy these cars worry about what others may think. And I don't think they care about the environment either or the gas mileage, they just want the latest technology and they can afford it. Mackabee
Toyota may be capable of building an uninvolving, well-insulated-from-the-world car with very high track limits and 1/4-mile times, which I'm sure is what the LF-A will be, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking abotu a fun-to-drive sports car or sporty car. Think a Miata-type driving experience, whether the actual car is a convertible roadster or a 4-door sedan.
That's what I doubt they still know how to build. Americans looking for sporty cars usually prefer ones that go very fast in a straight line and have a smooth relaxing highway ride, even if they want a sporty ride. Toyota will cater to that middle-of-the-road audience, ignoring everyone else, in its aggressive business plan to pursue the middle of the market to maximize profits.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They won't get respect from german car fans anyway, so why bother spending all that money when they are profitable now?
BMW fans cry that the IS350 doesn't come with a manual, yet the IS250 does, and it's a V6. They act like it doesn't exist.
LF-A will be met with skepticism, too, just watch.
The Celica required refreshed styling every 4 years and still failed, and to make things worse many considered it a secretary's car, not a sports car. It did nothing to create a halo over Toyota.
MR2 was invisible. I bet even today most people would not recognize it.
I guess the thing is people do not look to Toyota for a sports car, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Heck, I was in the camp that called them bland, yet some times you need a bland car to transport the kids. Suddenly there is a Sienna in my driveway.
Their cars do the inteded job quite well, it's just that driving thrills isn't one of those jobs. They do everything else well enough and that's good enough.
I do think they could make Scion sportier without really taking many risks.
Obviously the Toyota brand can't sell sporty cars properly. The public doesn't want a sporty Toyota. People don't go to Toyota for sports.
This is the truth. There's lots of hype and excitement about sports cars and very little fire.
Lots of kids come in gushing and wanting to drive the new hot item and always..always..'My Dad is coming in Saturday to buy it for me.' Yawn [14th time this month ].
We've had exactly one used Supra on our lot in the 8 yrs I've been here. There have been 10..count-em..10 firm buyers for it. "You got a Supra on your lot??? I'll be right down to buy it WooHoo. [ I just got to get my Dad, Mom. grandfather, whoever to give me the downpayment ]". This is wheel-spinning, literally, to the max. It's a colossal waste of time and generates little or no profit.
It's also cheaper, offers more standard equipments than the 328i. Oh by the way, you can order it with a stick. Isn't that the most criticism regarding Lexus now-a-day?
According to Edmunds, The IS250 with manual tranny and sport-tune suspension is a very capable performance sedan (not a rocket like the IS350, 335i, and G35).
By the way, I thought the 0-60 times is not that important when talking about performance sedans (well, at least that's the case before 335i was introduced... :P )
Have you driven a IS250? I have and it is a dog compared to the 3 series.
Now I haven't driven a manual transmission IS250 but I don't think they actually exist either at least not in large numbers. I have never seen one.
It is cheaper but you get what you pay for. It is a slower car, it has less road feel and it sure didn't feel like a better handling car then a 3 series to me. Oh it also doesn't have a pre-paid maintenance package like BMW has. Everything but tires covered for four years or 50,000 miles is convenient.
Trust me, manual IS250 does exist. My neighbor back in Florida has a white manual IS250. We've talked about our cars quiet often since I have an IS350. He said the only reason he opted for IS250 instead of IS350 is because he likes to row himself. Me, I like power and don't care for a stick thus the IS350.
I will agree manual IS250 does not exist in large number. Reasons? We are in America and IS is a Lexus. Even the manual 3-series does not exist in large numbers (30% last time I checked, which is tremendous in America).
Granted it doesn't handles as good as the 3er or be as fast as the 3er but it indeed is cheaper and it does offer more standard equipments than the 3er either. To each of their own, not everyone is a "hard core" enthusiast you know...
Next time try a manual IS250, maybe you'll have a better experience (no guarantee though).
Welllll, I agree the business case is strong to ignore the sporty buyers altogether - there is plenty of money to be made in the smooth/quiet/daily transportation appliance market.
But then, why did Sube design and market the WRX, probably its single biggest commercial success ever (maybe running neck and neck with the original Outback on that score)?
Why is it that Nissan can successfully a number of different sporty models that really do give the BMWs of the world a run for their money, yet still market a full line and make more than 1 million sales a year in the States?
I think the answer to my question is that there are SO MANY dull appliance models on the market that even if you make the best, safest, most reliable dull appliance models around, you still may be limiting your future growth potential.
For me the point is moot, as the time is not that far off when Toyota abandons the manual altogether, I think, and with that I will have bought my last Toyota.
edit...You know it's hard to root for a company just on the basis of its really great business model. Even the fans of GM, the huge conglomerate that most of the time DEFINES the term "dull appliance model", don't wax ecstatic about Caprices and Cavaliers (!!). They love the fast cars, or the huge trucks, or the Cadillacs, or whatever. NOT the middle 90% of GM's offerings, but those ones that are out there on the edges of the range. The fun ones that AREN'T just used for transportation.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's been 15 years since Toyota has had any significant market presence in sports cars.
Toyota avoids manual transmissions like the plaque.
The Tacoma X-Runner is very well done, I've driven it, and it doesn't have any market presence. Do you remember buyers going crazy for All-Trac Turbos and MR2 Sypders. I don't.
If they can make Scion work and Lexus work, which EVERYBODY said you're crazy, it'll never work, than why not wash, rinse, and repeat for sports cars?
Do you see a dedicated sports car outfit taking off? I do.
As a separate enterprise? No, I don't. As a tack-on outfit like Scion has been? Yeah, maybe then, but geez! There's no more space on Toyota dealers' sales floors! Scion would have to move off into a separate stand-alone venture before they could repeat the Scionization process for a sporty-car brand.
Toyota won't do it, that much is for CERTAIN.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I was on the waiting list when the IS appeared in the rags, I was less than 3 months away from recieving it too, 1000 dollar deposit (refundable of course) figuring I was going to love it, 200hp was going to be plenty if I was willing to work for it. Manual gearbox in a Lexus, easily one of the best looking cars in its class? Oh and that interior, wow... I was a rabid regular on the "Future IS" boards on Edmunds and a member of the Lexus club outside Edmunds. COuldn't wait to drive it and be one of the first to own one...
Then the pricing hit, 29k starting price before options. With the options I wanted, I was looking at a 36 thousand dollar car with a back seat the size of a Civic and performance mimmicking one. The car was more of a rear drive ES than an sporty IS. I backed out of the deal within a couple of weeks before it hit the lot.
Now, I'm not knocking the car overall, as I still think it's is a top notch offering, but I was hoping for a bit more beef and a little less tofu in the numbers. The IS350? that's a heck of a ride. Too bad it's Auto only... Even worse is that silly looking IS-F with the snow clearing ground effects and the 8 speed automatic.
Really, that's the best Lexus can do against the 3-series? :sick:
I mean, when is Toyota going to let the enthusiasts (no offense to the Automatic fans) have a crack at that 3.5? It is an absolute gem of a motor, it spools up so fast and sooooo smooth, I go crazy thinking how awesome that engine would be in a manual. I drove a RAV4 with it and I fell in love. The IS just seemed like a perfect car for it, a true BMW alternative. But alas, it was not to be...
I think I am with Nippononly on this. It is a crying shame that for a company with more money than many small countries, you'd think they could at least come up with the guts to take a chance for once. I mean, a pet project like the S2000 or something to commemorate their 1 trillionth sale :shades: I really think it would change a lot of the perceptions that peopke have about them.
"Scion-ize" the IS250, make it one way, comprehensively loaded for $29K, and call it a day. No factory options except transmission choice. I would rather have a TSX than the IS250, and save $5 grand in the process, even though it breaks my cardinal rule of "no more FWD sporty cars".
Hey, by the way, I started checking out this thread when it was well underway, but how did anyone justify the assertion that Toyota is on the offensive? Toyota is in what is perhaps its biggest entrenchment in the last 20 years, slowing down the development of new models, trying to bring the quality control back up to historic levels, etc etc. No way is it on the offensive, except perhaps in the full-size truck arena, and so far that offensive has consisted mostly of pouring on cash incentives higher than anything it has offered before, just to get sales started. There was an article in Autmotive News a couple of weeks ago talking about how they weren't sure what they were going to do with the idle hands at the Princeton plant...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In what way is Toyota on the offensive? New surprising products coming in the next 18 months? Anything out of the ordinary planned and in development? Entering new market segments not previously covered by the Toyota corporation? Absolutely not, to any of those three, with one exception, the Tundra. Time will tell on the Tundra, I will not, but cash rebates have been disappointingly high as I think even fans will concede.
Camry Corolla RAV4 and Prius do not represent an offensive, they just are making good sales. And two of those four are old enough to be showing their age. Corolla is at 15% fleet sales, so it's just "selling like gangbusters" because it is currently one of the bargain basement models in the compact segment. That is not an offensive.
Toyota in the last year has delayed the intro of the Highlander, delayed the debut of the new Corolla, suffered the total lack of interest on the part of the public concerning several of its hybrid models, with the Prius and RX400H the notable exceptions, and apologized publicly and profusely on no less than two occasions for its lack of attention to detail and quality control, as well as the extent of its cost-cutting (this was in the Auto News headlines just this weekend) which has come home to roost.
Toyota is retrenching and catching up with its own breakneck sales increases of the last few years, not going on the offensive at the current time.
And BTW, I would be very curious to hear of the last model Toyota that had a 4-year product cycle. I am straining to think of one myself. Several-years-old JDM Toyotas introduced here as new Scion models not included.
Highlander was renewed on a 6-year cycle, which is OK if you consider it part of the truck line-up. Corolla has ended up on a 6-year cycle. The last couple of gens of Corolla were 5 years, as were the last couple Camry cycles. Ditto Tercel when they still sold that one, and Echo ran six years as did the last Celica. If they execute a 5-year cycle of product renewal from here on out, it will be a case of speeding up, not slowing down.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Camry Corolla RAV4 and Prius do not represent an offensive, they just are making good sales. And two of those four are old enough to be showing their age. Corolla is at 15% fleet sales, so it's just "selling like gangbusters" because it is currently one of the bargain basement models in the compact segment.
Corolla may be old, but it seems to age like fine wine. IUt's selling like ganagbusters because...... it is a Corolla! :surprise:
The other model that is showing it's age?
Product cycle doesn't matter. If it's selling, why rush a replacement? This also helps deliver quality vehicles, if you can extend the cycle. Toyota doesn't need to constantly reinvent itself. We all know the deal. And we like it.
The current generation Corolla is a fine car, but I have a major problem with Toyota, and its dealers in the marketing of the Corolla. Try to find a Corolla LE on a dealer's lot with side-curtain airbags - it's almost impossible. Honda offers side-curtain airbags across all lines - standard equipment, as does Hyundai and Kia. I question Toyota's commitment to safety when they, or their dealers, make it so difficult to find one so equipped. At our local Toyota dealer, only 1 Corolla out of 28 currently in stock are equipped with side-curtain airbags. This is a disservice to consumers.
By the way, since luxury and hybrid flow well together, how well do the words luxury and diesel flow together?
Wonderfully, as proven by Mercedes, BMW & Audi. Too bad we are so far behind in the USA. I can understand Lexus trying to recoup some lost R&D by ripping the wealthy buyer. Most wealthy folks I know are not the easily parted with their money. They will go for the LS460L over the LS600h.
If they sell 3000 LS600h vehicles I will be surprised. They cannot get rid of the GS450h. Sales are dropping like a rock. Only 141 sold last month.
It is all about PR. The Prius proved a success as a PR stunt. Wait for 3 years you will get a Lexus hybrid off lease for pennies on the dollar.
And BTW, I would be very curious to hear of the last model Toyota that had a 4-year product cycle. I am straining to think of one myself. Several-years-old JDM Toyotas introduced here as new Scion models not included.
About 2 yrs ago Toyota indicated during the Camry launch ( 4.5 yrs ) training that it was endeavoring to shorten the cycle from about 5 yrs to say 4 yrs. The use of computer-assisted designs in designing, building, testing!, and production planning were intended to shorten the cycle and bring fresh new vehicles to market quicker.
As you noted in your prior post they announced recently that they were relooking at this and going back to doing more validation taking a longer time.
Toyota avoids manual transmissions like the plaque.
I cannot understand that. My 1994 Toyota PU truck clutch went out at 11k miles. NOT covered by the pathetic Toyota warranty. $900 down the Toyota toilet.
to see if the new HL allows more incursion into Toyota's territory by its competitors. I have sat in it and driven it now, and it has only taken baby steps forward from the last model IMO. I think GM and Hyundai will compete against it very successfully, while Pilot will also take some sales away over the next 15 months with its end-of-the-model-run discounts. However, since Toyota is only looking for 150K sales a year and this segment is growing in leaps and bounds, they will probably hit their target. This is the second model after the new Camry last year that only took baby steps forward from the last model. I sure hope Corolla is more evolved next spring than these two are.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
To the applause of many, I am going on Summer Vacation a little late this year, and will not be posting again, unless it's an emergency, until late September.
Comments
Why aren't people flocking to the GS450h?
I will take the S class with the V12 (S600).
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/jd-power-and-associates-2007-initial-quality-stud- - y/266375/full/
74 back on the latest VDS survey which sounds big till you that is problems per 100 vehicles. I will take a chance of .7 more problems with a car to have a much better driving more engaging drive.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2006133.pdf
Then you have to figure in all the extra complexity of the AWD and hybrid systems. The jag is a simple RWD platform with a proven ZF 6 speed automatic that goes in nearly ever BMW, Jag and Land Rover.
My former Land Rover service rep is now also a Jag/LR service rep and he would put any Lexus up against the new jags for quality. This guy used to be a Peugeot/Land Rover tech and has been in the business nearly 40 years so he knows a thing or to about good and bad vehicles.
When the battery production improves both on technology and cost then a V8 hybrid will make a V12 irrelevant (well, to a point that is).
Sounds like a reliable source. :shades:
I recall the brand scoring well in the quality surveys, shame they don't gloat about it in their advertising...
Toyota broke the ground, and have shown people will get on board, if you did your job.
So sell some boarding passes.
Those who are late do not get fruit cup!
DrFill
Keep in mind you may be quoted a year from now, and may end up sounding more than a little foolish.
I wouldn't bet against the LS Hybrid.
This could be Toyota's strike three, as far as I am concerned. Already they have all but abandoned fun, sporty models, have almost done the same with stick shifts in favor of automatics, and have had too many quality glitches and obvious cost-cutting efforts in the last 5-10 years. My current Toyota may be my last. :-(
I'm lucky I have Honda and Subaru to fall back on, not to mention I will likely give GM (in the form of Saturn) another shot before too much longer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hyundai Surpasses Porsche and Lexus in New Global Brands Study
Reminds me of when they said they would not offer incentives when GM and Ford were really hurting, yet a few days later they did announce incentives.
This is all PR nonsense.
Interestingly, our next door neighbor has twin boys, and they just bought a pair of matching Elantras. Well, at least the colors are different.
So it'll be interesting to see how they enjoy those. I'm sure we'll get periodic feedback. Their parents have had Volvos, Audis, and a Benz, so I was surprised to see a pair of Hyundais suddenly in the driveway, in fact I thought they'd moved out!
I was talking about luxury/ultra luxury hybrids - I just don't think the word luxury and hybrid flow well together.
About time, eh?
I dream for the return of Celica, MR2, Supra...
As one of the posters in the link said, and I'd agree. I desire the 97 lineup, not the 2007/2008 lineup.
Obviously they can make a new brand, and do it right.
Obviously the Toyota brand can't sell sporty cars properly. The public doesn't want a sporty Toyota. People don't go to Toyota for sports.
Build from the ground up. :surprise:
The basic car needs to weight 2500lbs, with the Camry engine, and some type of tuning (Not Scion tC).
The next car has the Camry V6 (if it is matable with a manual), and offer a limited slip, trd suspension, and stay under 3100 lbs.
And then you have your Supra/Hybrid/Turbo machine that has 350HP for under $30k.
Target 75k units a year, and go from there.
I know! Let's come up with a fantasy name for our new sports division! Names for the new cars! :shades:
DrFill
Mack
Mackabee
By the way, since luxury and hybrid flow well together, how well do the words luxury and diesel flow together?
So go, we will. My family has been almost Toyota-exclusive for the last 30 years, but the last 3 cars they have purchased included a Mazda3, Honda Civic, and Acura RSX. Not a Toyota in the bunch, and they are very satisfied with their purchases.
And Doc: GIVE ME A BREAK! You don't need to invent a whole new brand to sell sporty Toyotas. Toyota has a long heritage of sporty models. It's just the last 10 years they have forgotten that. Serve up a couple of really good sport models, and the buyers would flock to Toyota dealerships.
The problem, I think, goes deeper. Look at the press reviews of EVERY sporty model Toyota has introduced in the last decade, including the ones where Toyota's own press release said "this is it! We have come roaring back! This is the sport model to end all sport models, we are going head to head with BMW, Nissan, you name it!". Without exception they are criticized as numb, over-nannied, and unexciting. This includes most of the Lexus cars now including the sport models, and also the sporty variants of every one of its Toyota models. Not to mention the latest xB and probably the xD when it arrives.
Does Toyota even remember HOW to build a truly exciting, involving sporty car?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And I don't think they care about the environment either or the gas mileage, they just want the latest technology and they can afford it.
Mackabee
Does Toyota remember how to build a sporty car? It wasn't that long ago so I think the answer is yes.
Is Toyota capable of building a sporty car? Sir YES Sir.
Is Toyota dedicated to build a sporty car? We shall see...
He didn't say "sporty" he said "spoty"
Mackabee
That's what I doubt they still know how to build. Americans looking for sporty cars usually prefer ones that go very fast in a straight line and have a smooth relaxing highway ride, even if they want a sporty ride. Toyota will cater to that middle-of-the-road audience, ignoring everyone else, in its aggressive business plan to pursue the middle of the market to maximize profits.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They won't get respect from german car fans anyway, so why bother spending all that money when they are profitable now?
BMW fans cry that the IS350 doesn't come with a manual, yet the IS250 does, and it's a V6. They act like it doesn't exist.
LF-A will be met with skepticism, too, just watch.
The Celica required refreshed styling every 4 years and still failed, and to make things worse many considered it a secretary's car, not a sports car. It did nothing to create a halo over Toyota.
MR2 was invisible. I bet even today most people would not recognize it.
I guess the thing is people do not look to Toyota for a sports car, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Heck, I was in the camp that called them bland, yet some times you need a bland car to transport the kids. Suddenly there is a Sienna in my driveway.
Their cars do the inteded job quite well, it's just that driving thrills isn't one of those jobs. They do everything else well enough and that's good enough.
I do think they could make Scion sportier without really taking many risks.
This is the truth. There's lots of hype and excitement about sports cars and very little fire.
Lots of kids come in gushing and wanting to drive the new hot item and always..always..'My Dad is coming in Saturday to buy it for me.' Yawn [14th time this month ].
We've had exactly one used Supra on our lot in the 8 yrs I've been here. There have been 10..count-em..10 firm buyers for it. "You got a Supra on your lot??? I'll be right down to buy it WooHoo. [ I just got to get my Dad, Mom. grandfather, whoever to give me the downpayment ]". This is wheel-spinning, literally, to the max. It's a colossal waste of time and generates little or no profit.
Well the IS250 essentially doesn't exist in comparison to the 328i.
Just check these specs
The IS250 is heavier, makes less hp, less torque gets worse gas mileage and is slower.
According to Edmunds, The IS250 with manual tranny and sport-tune suspension is a very capable performance sedan (not a rocket like the IS350, 335i, and G35).
Follow-Up Test: 2007 Lexus IS 250
By the way, I thought the 0-60 times is not that important when talking about performance sedans (well, at least that's the case before 335i was introduced... :P )
Now I haven't driven a manual transmission IS250 but I don't think they actually exist either at least not in large numbers. I have never seen one.
It is cheaper but you get what you pay for. It is a slower car, it has less road feel and it sure didn't feel like a better handling car then a 3 series to me. Oh it also doesn't have a pre-paid maintenance package like BMW has. Everything but tires covered for four years or 50,000 miles is convenient.
I will agree manual IS250 does not exist in large number. Reasons? We are in America and IS is a Lexus. Even the manual 3-series does not exist in large numbers (30% last time I checked, which is tremendous in America).
Granted it doesn't handles as good as the 3er or be as fast as the 3er but it indeed is cheaper and it does offer more standard equipments than the 3er either. To each of their own, not everyone is a "hard core" enthusiast you know...
Next time try a manual IS250, maybe you'll have a better experience (no guarantee though).
Welllll, I agree the business case is strong to ignore the sporty buyers altogether - there is plenty of money to be made in the smooth/quiet/daily transportation appliance market.
But then, why did Sube design and market the WRX, probably its single biggest commercial success ever (maybe running neck and neck with the original Outback on that score)?
Why is it that Nissan can successfully a number of different sporty models that really do give the BMWs of the world a run for their money, yet still market a full line and make more than 1 million sales a year in the States?
I think the answer to my question is that there are SO MANY dull appliance models on the market that even if you make the best, safest, most reliable dull appliance models around, you still may be limiting your future growth potential.
For me the point is moot, as the time is not that far off when Toyota abandons the manual altogether, I think, and with that I will have bought my last Toyota.
edit...You know it's hard to root for a company just on the basis of its really great business model. Even the fans of GM, the huge conglomerate that most of the time DEFINES the term "dull appliance model", don't wax ecstatic about Caprices and Cavaliers (!!). They love the fast cars, or the huge trucks, or the Cadillacs, or whatever. NOT the middle 90% of GM's offerings, but those ones that are out there on the edges of the range. The fun ones that AREN'T just used for transportation.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota avoids manual transmissions like the plaque.
The Tacoma X-Runner is very well done, I've driven it, and it doesn't have any market presence. Do you remember buyers going crazy for All-Trac Turbos and MR2 Sypders. I don't.
If they can make Scion work and Lexus work, which EVERYBODY said you're crazy, it'll never work, than why not wash, rinse, and repeat for sports cars?
Do you see a dedicated sports car outfit taking off? I do.
DrFill
Toyota won't do it, that much is for CERTAIN.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Imagine the possibilities! :surprise:
DrFill
Then the pricing hit, 29k starting price before options. With the options I wanted, I was looking at a 36 thousand dollar car with a back seat the size of a Civic and performance mimmicking one. The car was more of a rear drive ES than an sporty IS. I backed out of the deal within a couple of weeks before it hit the lot.
Now, I'm not knocking the car overall, as I still think it's is a top notch offering, but I was hoping for a bit more beef and a little less tofu in the numbers. The IS350? that's a heck of a ride. Too bad it's Auto only... Even worse is that silly looking IS-F with the snow clearing ground effects and the 8 speed automatic.
Really, that's the best Lexus can do against the 3-series? :sick:
I mean, when is Toyota going to let the enthusiasts (no offense to the Automatic fans) have a crack at that 3.5? It is an absolute gem of a motor, it spools up so fast and sooooo smooth, I go crazy thinking how awesome that engine would be in a manual. I drove a RAV4 with it and I fell in love. The IS just seemed like a perfect car for it, a true BMW alternative. But alas, it was not to be...
I think I am with Nippononly on this. It is a crying shame that for a company with more money than many small countries, you'd think they could at least come up with the guts to take a chance for once. I mean, a pet project like the S2000 or something to commemorate their 1 trillionth sale :shades: I really think it would change a lot of the perceptions that peopke have about them.
DrFill
Hey, by the way, I started checking out this thread when it was well underway, but how did anyone justify the assertion that Toyota is on the offensive? Toyota is in what is perhaps its biggest entrenchment in the last 20 years, slowing down the development of new models, trying to bring the quality control back up to historic levels, etc etc. No way is it on the offensive, except perhaps in the full-size truck arena, and so far that offensive has consisted mostly of pouring on cash incentives higher than anything it has offered before, just to get sales started. There was an article in Autmotive News a couple of weeks ago talking about how they weren't sure what they were going to do with the idle hands at the Princeton plant...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Like everyone else the heavy vehicles, save the Tundra are in decline. The Tacoma is solid.
The Highlander, Scions and Yaris are still too new to make any judgement about them yet.
I guess we'll have to wait a while to see if they do actually slow down from their purported 4 yr cycle back to a 5 or 6 yr cycle as before.
In what way is Toyota on the offensive? New surprising products coming in the next 18 months? Anything out of the ordinary planned and in development? Entering new market segments not previously covered by the Toyota corporation? Absolutely not, to any of those three, with one exception, the Tundra. Time will tell on the Tundra, I will not, but cash rebates have been disappointingly high as I think even fans will concede.
Camry Corolla RAV4 and Prius do not represent an offensive, they just are making good sales. And two of those four are old enough to be showing their age. Corolla is at 15% fleet sales, so it's just "selling like gangbusters" because it is currently one of the bargain basement models in the compact segment. That is not an offensive.
Toyota in the last year has delayed the intro of the Highlander, delayed the debut of the new Corolla, suffered the total lack of interest on the part of the public concerning several of its hybrid models, with the Prius and RX400H the notable exceptions, and apologized publicly and profusely on no less than two occasions for its lack of attention to detail and quality control, as well as the extent of its cost-cutting (this was in the Auto News headlines just this weekend) which has come home to roost.
Toyota is retrenching and catching up with its own breakneck sales increases of the last few years, not going on the offensive at the current time.
And BTW, I would be very curious to hear of the last model Toyota that had a 4-year product cycle. I am straining to think of one myself. Several-years-old JDM Toyotas introduced here as new Scion models not included.
Highlander was renewed on a 6-year cycle, which is OK if you consider it part of the truck line-up. Corolla has ended up on a 6-year cycle. The last couple of gens of Corolla were 5 years, as were the last couple Camry cycles. Ditto Tercel when they still sold that one, and Echo ran six years as did the last Celica. If they execute a 5-year cycle of product renewal from here on out, it will be a case of speeding up, not slowing down.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Corolla may be old, but it seems to age like fine wine. IUt's selling like ganagbusters because...... it is a Corolla! :surprise:
The other model that is showing it's age?
Product cycle doesn't matter. If it's selling, why rush a replacement? This also helps deliver quality vehicles, if you can extend the cycle. Toyota doesn't need to constantly reinvent itself. We all know the deal. And we like it.
DrFill
Oh, and no car short of collectibles ages like fine wine, and certainly not the Corolla.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wonderfully, as proven by Mercedes, BMW & Audi. Too bad we are so far behind in the USA. I can understand Lexus trying to recoup some lost R&D by ripping the wealthy buyer. Most wealthy folks I know are not the easily parted with their money. They will go for the LS460L over the LS600h.
If they sell 3000 LS600h vehicles I will be surprised. They cannot get rid of the GS450h. Sales are dropping like a rock. Only 141 sold last month.
It is all about PR. The Prius proved a success as a PR stunt. Wait for 3 years you will get a Lexus hybrid off lease for pennies on the dollar.
That is a true fact. Lexus cannot convince Japanese buyers they are as good as MB & BMW. That would be a shame if Lexus flops at home :sick:
About 2 yrs ago Toyota indicated during the Camry launch ( 4.5 yrs ) training that it was endeavoring to shorten the cycle from about 5 yrs to say 4 yrs. The use of computer-assisted designs in designing, building, testing!, and production planning were intended to shorten the cycle and bring fresh new vehicles to market quicker.
As you noted in your prior post they announced recently that they were relooking at this and going back to doing more validation taking a longer time.
5.5 yrs actually on the Highlander
I cannot understand that. My 1994 Toyota PU truck clutch went out at 11k miles. NOT covered by the pathetic Toyota warranty. $900 down the Toyota toilet.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I wish you all good luck, and enjoy yourselves!
DrFill