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What a fanatastic reply. You have cleared many of my doubts. We are a 3 car home, the 16 yr old puppy just got her wheels. So every penny saved in preventives adds up. I am told that oil change is the most recommended service (Click and Clack on NPR) for the car.
My Wal Mart lists only 3 types of services, but as per your suggestions I will ask fore Penzoil + Supertech filter w/o inspection. I think that would be the best deal for our cars (2005 Corolla, 2000 Odyssey and 1994 Altima).
Thanks again
The PD has special high pressure injectors which will clog if you use regular diesel oil, that is the reason for the difference.
Synthetic is better for winter use. You need all the lubricity you can get at 0°F out of oil. Most conventional oils start gelling at that temp and your start ups are oil starved. High heat has nothing to do with the oil. The engine with fully functional cooling system operates at a very narrow range of temps. So, whether is -20°F or 100°F engine, once warmed up, is at the same temprature. So, if you are just using synth for th summer because of the heat, you are wasting your money, or doing it for the erroneous reasons. I use Mobil 0W-20 year around, because it gets to -20°F in the winter and cold start ups are better with low winter number oils. Summer heat has nothing to do with the oil.
Synthetic oil is praised for its high flash point - resistance to high temperature. But of course if the temperature is very high, viscoscity - thinning of the oil - becomes a problem much sooner than oxidation.
So I agree that summer weather in Texas is probably not a conventional oil vs. synthetic oil issue. Still, you pointed out that cooling systems have a "range" of normal operating temperatures and thus the oil could well be running hotter in the summer, which leads me to think that thicker oil in summer might be a good idea. For example, 5-30 instead of 5-20. Also, a synthetic oil is better than a conventional oil because they need fewer, and sometimes no, viscoscity improvers, where as a 5-20 conventional oil could degrade to 5-15 etc by the middle of the oil change cycle.
I also prefer synthetic because it doesn't form sludge nearly as easily as conventional oils.
I agree that synthetic really shines when it gets cold and conventional oils get gummy; car manufacturers keep reminding us that more wear takes place during start up and warmup so this is an important issue.
All in in I think I'd run 5-30 full synthetic in the summer in Texas and 5-20 full synthetic in the winter (in cars recommending 5-20).
BTW, 0-20 Mobil 1 is replaced by 5-20. But of course we know its still 0-20, right?
For my 4 dollars per quart, the above quote is a little like the sound of one hand clapping. There is almost no other oil I would chose in a cross country 10 hr a day cruising speeds of 80 plus mph in 105 degrees ambient temperatures than a quality group IV synthetic. Will a group III or non synthetic work? Absolutely!
PepBoys have a calendar, there is a coupon inside for Mobil 1 "buy 3 get 3 free." I waited until it was on sale for $3.99 at PEpBoys. Bought 6 packs with coupon, ended up paying $12 for 6 quarts of Mobil 1. Then sent in receipts to Mobil 1 rewards for $5 super certificate for each six pack. Here is the math: $12-$5=$7, $7/6=$1.17 per quart.
I have enough 0W-20 to last me 2-3 years with 5000 mile oil change intervals. I may even take Honda up on their 10,000 mile recommended intervals with dyno oil. But, I live in an area where it gets bellow 0°F in the winter and above 90°F in the summer, which puts me in the Severe schedule. I would hate to void the OEM warranty on such technicality. Plus, my daily commute is a lttle over 5 miles one way.
I just bought Penzoil Synthetic 5W-30 for "free after rebate." I know they are just purified dyno oils, so that will serve well in the Lawnmower (Honda) and Snowblower (Ariens).
So, these users are (true) believers in first case and (most than) suspicious in other one. Is it really necessary to suspicious in synthetic oil manufacturer's recommendations (Amsoil for instance) and to their knowledge and experience if they are (very successfully) doing it for 32 years? A number of OEM's have a much shorter history and mentioned users readily believe their recommendations. Strange?
But, on the other side you use computer, newer cars, modern appliances,... You accepted these things easily and don't want to give a (little bit) chance to modern chemistry, research, ...How it comes?... :confuse:
You asked (some time ago) and I tried to answer. If you reply to all answers similarly,,,
If we can't move on to other subjects or maintain a civil attitude, I'm going to start removing posts, regrettably. So don't waste time writing in invisible ink. Have fun and keep the subject moving if you please.
Thank you for your consideration
MrShiftright
Host
Any help in answering this question for me will be helpful!
The Sandman :confuse:
Best Regards,
Shipo
Is it strange to you that car manufacturers kept customers for decades misinformed about synthetic lubricants? Why? Because of profit! More oil exchanges - more money. Petroleum oil companies just perfectly supported that concept because of same thing. They spent huge amounts of money to bunk and disqualify "synthetic idea". Result of that approach is 3000 miles oil drain rule (recommendation, habit,...). Wanted they it or not customers accepted that concept and stuck with it years.
Today all of "petroleum oil companies" have their synthetic oil products. For all of them, synthetic oil “suddenly” became top quality product and so important that some of them even mark hydrocracked petroleum oil as "full synthetic" and invested a lot of money to fight for that.
One of the most known and emphasized synthetic oil advantages is longer drain interval. Resulting benefit is cheaper maintenance in the long run. All the manufacturers and great part of customers already are familiar with that. But, great part of manufacturers for their (lets say) $5/l products still recommend 3000 miles change interval! Wouldn’t be it notorious puling a money out of customer’s wallet? They want sell to customer more expensive product and keep him stuck with old habits. The most common question in this situation would be: why that product is more expensive?
On the other side some of synthetic oil manufacturers (Amsoil and Exxon, for instance) are honest with customers and recommend oil drain intervals from 7.500 miles to indefinite. Wouldn’t it be much financially better for them to recommend 3000 mi? Certainly would! But, that would put them in bunch of greedy, dishonest and common companies what is completely opposite of their policy and (32 years, for Amsoil) reputation.
Let me, once more, elaborate customers with synthetic oil drain concept of 3000 miles. Despite written (bottles and other literature) recommendations of (lets say) 25.000 miles they, because of old habit mainly, decide to change oil @ 3000 miles! Is it OK? Do they assume themselves as more qualified than whole researching teams with years of experience? If manufacturer (Amsoil) stands behind product for over 32 years with same or improved recommendation why should I rather have my own idea based on old habit than believe to longer drain interval?
I am a typical example. On the one hand, I personally find changing out synthetic oil at 3,000 miles rather wasteful to say the least; but would I wait 25,000 miles to change oil in my $12,000 engine? I don't think so, I don't see the point of going to that level of "economy".
As for "science", we all know that there is good science and not so good science. In fact, "science" constantly re-invents and corrects itself. The builders of the Titanic relied on science, after all. And commercial / industrial science should always be approached with a bit of skepticism, as it is not quite the same as pure clinical scientific research with no motive except knowledge.
Last of all, the science we get in an advertisement is a condensation of a rather elaborate test procedure, which may have all kinds of caveats and exceptions which are not quoted in the sales literature. It's hard to say if the average consumer really digests all the "science" behind a product.
Going to "point of economy" of 25.000 (or even 35.000) miles is not any kind of extreme. Driving an 18-wheeler for 409.000 miles without oil change could be considered as it! For me all of this is not (cheap) economy. It is just optimal usage of available resources! If, for instance I were in some mountain spa I wouldn't breathe just with half of lungs.
You're right about average customer's knowledge and approach. Rather than explore little bit through (easily available) documentation about some product they comply by ample advertising campaigns. Regarding that, for instance, it happened that some of my friends tried to convince me that Castrol Syntec is "full synthetic oil" like it is marked on the bottles.
It happens that I understand this forum as supposed place where those who know a little bit more about some problems, products, technologies,... are available to common customers for all their questions and concerns. Why Mr/Mrs X have to spent hours in reading different documents about some problem while Mr. Shiftright or Mr. Y already spent (lets say) half of life in solving same or similar problems. That is one of the ways how to educate common ("non-digestible") customer. Isn't it?
While the Mercedes is under warranty, I have no problem with their oil intervals as they are paying the bills. When I myself have to pay the bills, I have a problem with it unless I use oil analysis. You can't tell the condition of oil by just looking at it.
I believe that the 25,000 miles oil life is good only for driving on highways, in light traffic.
I have two cars in my family, 2000 and 2004 Buick Regals. The both have oil monitors. The manual for the older car recommends changing oil after 7,500 miles maximum; with the newer car the maximum increased to 12,000 miles. The both numbers are for natural oil, for the ideal driving conditions.
However, in the real conditions - hilly terrains, city traffic, and 25 traffic lights on my 7.5 mile commute to work - I have to change oil every 6,000 miles. This is according to the oil monitors. I am using Mobil 1, and change the oil every 6 months. As a rule, it is also close to the mileage limit.
Are your "serious doubts" based on any other particular reason (or known case) other than "being skeptic not gambler"? Am I missing some (well known probably) info?
Without any personal offence could you tell me do you have any stronger reason than believing that 25.000 miles oil is “good just for light traffic on highways”? For me, as technically inclined person, believing is not an argument (at all).
The most interesting part of your post for me is: you drive Mobil 1 for 6.000 miles without any Exxon’s written recommendation like that. Your decision in this case is based just on personal suppositions about its quality. On the other way you quickly reject Amsoil's recommendation despite they support that claim for over 32 years. Do you think that they could survive harsh N.American market just with unsupported claims and weak (comparing with Exxon, Castrol, ) advertising.
ican market with advertising and unsupported claims?
Appears to me to be six of one thing, half a dozen of another. Something to think about.
Insofar as being a tool for changing attitudes, I don't think the hard facts have changed many minds, both percentage and volume. In fact, the qwiky lube oil change industry surveys have indicated most average oil change intervals are app 5k instead of the much marketed 3k interval. They of course see this as an ominous trend. For informational purposes, I really think that in all fairness, oil analysis should be done for both conventional and synthetic. As a practical matter, the cost is not justified.
Given how my vehicles are driven, I have no concerns at all for my average of 15,000 mile OCI's. I have been both amazed and impressed with how far conventional oil has come. On the Honda Civic VP (used as a commuter) they recommend 10,000 mile OCI's on conventional oil!! In this case 20,000 miles on Mobil One 0W20/5W20 presents no concerns to me at all.
I have done oil analysis 6 times and the results are outstanding, oil is suitable for continued use every time.
The oil used is Amsoil ASL 5W-30. I am pretty sure that the new Mobil 1 for extended service would perform similarly.
50% of my commute of 40 miles each way is stop and go so I would call this severe service.
Mr. Shiftright: In Germany Porsche recommends an OCI of 30000 Kms (18645 miles) for some of their cars (like the Cayenne). As you know, cars there are driven at MUCH higher speeds than in the USA and the engines survive that type of use without any problems.
Synthetic oils are mandatory for those long intervals.
djordan: Show me ONE case (please document it) where Amsoil has had to replace an engine under their warranty. It does not exist. Engines will fail for many reasons but it is pretty much impossible to prove that oil is the cause for the failure.
I believe that to go to 25k or 35k oil change intervals oil analysis is indispensable.
15K oil change = 8 quarts synthetic @ $5 + fact. oil filter $10 = $50 X 1time = $50
Annual miles = 12,000
Savings per year (time to go 12K) by using synthetic + 15K interval = $32
3 mpg on a truck getting 15 mpg is a 20% increase in fuel economy. Any engineer would tell you he'd sell his grandmother into slavery for such a massive gain in economy. It sounds way too good to be true, and so simple a solution for manufacturers to optimize their fleet CAFE standards. Why would Toyota spend all that $$ on hybrid technology when all they needed was Amsoil in their crankcases?
See what I mean?
Besides, I've tested gas mileage extensively and thoroughly on my own cars, and synthetic didn't change it over the long haul, or the variation was so slim that it could have been due to statistical variations.
But if someone wants me to give a .5 to 1 mpg gain, I'd say "sure, that's plausible".
> Toyota and others have to meet the EPA deadlines. Then, as is the case now in some states and Canadian provinces, it's annual emission tests that car & truck owners will need to have done that will make people use a superior engine oil option.
The real issue for me is why is it acceptable for MobilOne to offer a longer oil change option, ie. 15,000 kms(?) maybe miles, and not Amsoil?
On the topic of improved milage, I'm inclined to think that also using, ie. Donaldson air & oil filters and superior synthetic transmission lubricants would accumulate noticeable fuel reduction in larger vehicles.