Synthetic motor oil

highroller

I have a 97 honda accord with 125k miles on it. I guess i've been using conventional oil for some time. Would switching to a synthetic brand like Mobil 1 Supersyn be okay?

highender

I think they have a syn oil for high mileage vehicles....

I think syn oil has cleansing properties, which may open up leaks in your older gaskets...but I am not sure....can one of the other more knowledgeable people answer this ?

I had a suburban that I switched to syn oil....and then it developed a leak...

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think I would switch unless you are under some kind of severe service on the car.

ruking1

Do you still have the leak or did you R/R the offending seal?

highroller

Does anyone know if my using synthetic motor oils for the first time with a high mileage vehicle that has a very, very small leak (lets say about a dime size leak) is okay? And I've heard that using synthetics is the same as using conventional oils. The only benefit you get out of using synthetic oils is its high temperature advantages. Can anyone comment on this please?

shipo

Ummm, "dime size?" Yikes, I doubt the drain hole in any car I've ever had is that big. ;-) So, for the sake of the rest of this post, let's assume that he leak is real small.

Regarding you question about "...I've heard that using synthetics is the same as using conventional oils."

Hmmm, I wouldn't say "the same as"; however, given a few key differences, they can be used in generally the same way.

1) Synthetic oils have a "temperature advantage" at both ends of the scale. As a rule, they flow better when real cold and they also flow better and don't coke as easily when real hot. This extra ability to flow when cold is usually a benefit; however, if you have a small leak that normally stops as the engine cools (and the oil thickens), you may find that you leak more oil.
2) High quality true synthetic oils generally do a better job of keeping the insides of an engine clean for any number of reasons. When changing to synthetic on a high mileage engine, you might find that the synthetic oil cleans enough varnish and other deposits (left behind by your old oil) from inside your engine that you initially need to change the oil more often (due to the fact that your new oil is being required to hold that stuff in suspension). You might also find that the extra cleaning capability cleans its way through enough gunk to start other leaks.
3) Due to its greater stability at high temperatures, synthetic oil doesn't cause varnish to build up on various parts inside the engine. This is also a mixed blessing. Your engine is cleaner inside, however, if said engine sees intermittent use; it is also more likely to corrode from the inside out than it would with conventional oil.
4) While this item is no longer much of an issue, it is still worth mentioning every now and again: Synthetic oil is incapable of holding lead (TEL) in suspension, which conventional oils have no problem doing at all. Using Synthetic oil with leaded fuel is a sure formula for gummed up piston rings (among other nasty side-effects).

Having said all of that, I don't see any reason why you couldn't take a high mileage engine, button it up with new gaskets, and go on your merry way.

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

Thanks for the advice shipo. Also, i want to clarify what i said about the leak size being as small (dime size). i meant to say that the leak had a drop of oil that was approximately close to a dime size; meaning that the oil that i saw on the ground was as little as the size of a dime. Hope that makes sense. But thanks for the advice again.

shipo

A dime sized drop, yes, that makes sense. How often do you get a drop of that size?

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

I've started spotting THE dime sized motor oil drop on the day i've added the mobil 1 with supersyn oil (which was yesterday). I guess you can say that its been leaking like this before the last oil change. Needless to say but its only A small drop of oil. i haven't checked for leaks before then because I wasn't aware of any drops then. I've checked for leaks every time i get home since i've switched to the synthetic oil. And everytime i get home from work or from driving someplace, i spot the small drop of oil. Needless to say but i replaced my gasket about 14,000 miles ago. i now have 127,000 miles on my 1997 honda accord. Can you tell me if i should be forewarned about something or compliment on this.

shipo

Hmmm, a single drop that has just recently started. Me, I'd let it go and see what happens. If it gets no larger, then "I'd drive it till it drops." If the leak gets larger, then you have to decide if/when/what should be done about it. Just remember, it takes a fairly large oil leak to justify (dollar wise) the repairs necessary to stop said leak.

Best Regards,
Shipo

armtdm

I have encountered this when switching over to synthetic with used cars. The leaks usually stop in a few months, stay the same and sometimes get worse. Wait and see. If you cannot live with it go back to dino.

highroller

Do you know whats a good dino oil for high used mileage cars?

highroller

im not saying i do this, but im just curious if anyone knows if you change the engine oil with synthetic brand and filter on a high mileage car like lets say every 500 miles. Would anything bad or any potential damage happen? im just wondering so if anyone can comment or respond on this it would be greatly appreciated.

yurakm

A damage definitely will happen - to your wallet. About $25 to $45 damage every two weeks or so.

wtd44

Valvoline makes a popular product for high mileage cars. I'd just use common engine oil and see how it goes, mainly because I tend to think of "high mileage oils" as being a marketing gimmick aimed at selling some oil at a higher price than usual.

beernut

I agree. They're looking for a boutique industry.

highroller

i agree. some of the "high mileage" oils i see aren't even api certified.

armtdm

API certification is pretty much useless and the reason many many oils do not have it is the cost and or due to the higher additives cannot pass the test. Note that RedLine, Amsoil, (not sure about the new Mobil 1 Extended) dot not meet API. In the case of high mileage oils their additives probably preclude them from passing the test. I have used a non certifiede API oil for over 10 years, Amsoil, do I care if it has the doughnut on the label, nope, Beats the Valvoline and Castrols that have it.

ruking1

There is really a marketing and fear catch 22 in the rating systems. On the one hand no one wants to use a sub par oil. On the other hand the cost of certification (peace of mind) is FAR too high. Peace of mind, the certification systems take a big PIECE of the certification dollar. The fact of the matter is that for most conventional oils, the cost of "wearing the badge" on the labeling, so to speak can be spread over many more qts than say a "designer oil" such as Amsoil. So a designer oil company can take the position that it has done its own internal R & D and testing and its products "meets and or EXCEEDS standards X,Y,Z, and or beyond". This of course saves the cost of the royalty fee for every time a quantity is sold.

But make no mistake the customer whether he realizes it or not pays far more for the certifications than he knows.

highender

Hey bud:

how goes it?

what do you think about the new oil marketed by mobil....the 5000, 7500, and 15000 ? they are supposed to last the same number of miles as the name implies. Is it a gimmick, or do the extra long living synthetics do the trick better than the regular synthetics ? I thought my regular Mobil 1 would do the trick for 9000 plus miles..

ruking1

Long time no see!

I think it is an interesting strategic corp plan to trump and overtake Castrol's "successful" marketing coup for calling and marketing hydrocracked conventional oils (group III) as "synthetic".

Synthetic oil (to me as a consumer) is PAO group IV vs group III based. As a practical matter, I probably am in a minority position. I will still buy group IV. Unfortunately or fortunately Castrol has read the tea leaves correctly as it affects/effects the consumer. Plus they have a way higher margin (synthetic "synthetic" :)hydrocracked group III is far cheaper than real synthetic base stocks)

For me, it does not change much! I still get the so called "old" Mobil One 5w30. Still run the 15,000 miles OCI's. The other "old" Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck and SUV is the SOS (not a bad thing by any means) but as you have probably noticed has FAR different packaging. Again for me it is application specific. (TDI)Because of TDI specific issues, I have run 10k to 25,000 OCI's.

The reason I do not switch to the so called EP is a bit old school: doesn't meet the (GM 4178, CI-4) specs and EP is also at a buck or so premium over the now "middle (product) child".

Since we last compared notes, I have the need for the Mobil One 0w20. So I bought 80,000 miles worth of changes! (Honda Civic commute car) The new batting order eliminated the 0W20 in favor of the "new" 5w20 Mobil One (which is now the "middle (product) child" and not the EP version.

How did you leak issues turn out?

highender

thanks for your info....it is most informative..

:-)

my leak issues have not surfaced and is doing well....I am running regular Mobil 1 oil for both the acura TL, and the cayenne. The suburban is still running regular dino oil...but I think it is time to switch to synthetics...

I still have not changed the oil in the supercharger..which runs 20w-50 syn....It also has a minor leak in the supercharger...but nothing big....

I guess I should wait a few more miles to change oil...now I am changing the cayenne at 7500 OCI,,,

likewise the other cars...

I'll let you know when I change all to syn....

take care meanwhile...

:-)

ruking1

Just a quick question, are you running Mobil One 0w40 (euro formula) in your Cayenne? If so how do you like it so far?

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx

If I were more inclined to consolidate brews, this seems like the Mobil product hot ticket!!

shipo

I've been running Mobil-1 0w-40 in my 530i for three years now. It keeps the engine innards (as viewed through the cam cover) much cleaner than the BMW/Castrol stuff, smells better too. The BMW/Castrol stuff made the engine of my previous BMW smell like an old 1970s mill that ran too long on the 1970s vintage "Pennsylvania Grade Crude" Quaker State or other oils of that ilk.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

Gee, that is an interesting take that I have NOT had in a while (over 694,000 miles). I know what you mean about that old Penn Grade Crude smell. Long time in the past, it was almost like you could almost tell which engines had sludge, JUST by the smell!! Rip that puppy apart and oh YUCK!

shipo

"Long time in the past..."

Hmmm, let's hear it for grey hairs in the old beard, lots of them. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

jpmiller99

I would love to switch to synthetic, but would like to know if I can switch from 10W30 dino to 5W30 Synthetic.

I have 99 Buick Regal (82K miles, 3.8L Push Rod V-6). The owners manual said that at low temperatures, I can run 5w-30, but over about 60 degrees F, I should run 10w-30.

I was wondering if a synthetic 5w-30 (Mobil 1) would protect well enough at higher temperatures to use in this car all year around.

I bet the thinner oil would give me a little better fuel economy, but would I risk any engine damage due to the loss of viscosity.

armtdm

Are you sure about the 20W50 in the SC. I have a 3800 with SC and have used both the GM SC oil at $7.50 for 4 ounces and Amsoil 0W30 both of which work very well. Really wonder what it is from the factory????????

yurakm

The owner manual for my 2000 Regal GS also requires using only 5w-30 when it is below 0F.

To my understanding, pre-2001 3.8l engines sap oil when parked. Not all engines, just few copies, but it happened with 5w-30 when it is hot outside. 10W-30 oil is more viscous and does not sap even in summer. This is why 10w-30 is recommended for summer. I have read it somewhere on Internet.

I am using Mobil 10w-30 all year. For simple reason: I live in Connecticut. The winter temperature here often rises above 60F, and not so seldom falls below 0F. Viscosity of synthetic 10w-30 (when starting engine) does not change with the outside temperature as much as viscosity of natural oil.

To my understanding, 5w-30 would not save much gas. The only difference with 10w-30 is when the engine is just starting cold, I would say the first minute or two, five minutes at most.

On the other hand, even slight overinflation of tires will save gas. I am inflating my tires to 32 psi, with 30 psi recommended by manual.

jpmiller99

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll just stick with Mobil 1 10W-30 all year round. My van runs on 5w-30 and it seems much thinner.

jhinsc

For the past 10-12 years or so, I have been changing my oil in my vehicles every 7,500 miles, as called for in the manual under normal driving conditions. Up until about 2 years ago, I would put on 7,500 miles about every 3 months or so. Now, I don't drive more than about 10,000 miles per year, so I change the oil every 6 months, again per the manual. I have yet to have any problems whatsoever in any of the 8 cars I've owned during this period. Some of my trips are short, but others are longer, but most are in between, about 20 miles or so, long enough to completely warm the oil and evaporate any moisture. My mom drives about 8,000 miles per year, all short trips. I can see why she changes her oil every 3,000 miles, but I just don't see the need for me to do it, even though the dealer thinks I should. My question is why? I also have an ML320 for the last 5 years, and only change the oil when the dash indicator tells me to take it in for service, which is about every 12,000 miles. It's been running on Mobil 1 since it left the factory. My other vehicles I use dino oil because the cost of synthetic in my opinion isn't justified since I can't extend the intervals, which would void the warranty per the manual.

It seems more and more autos are going to longer oil intervals. GM is using 10,000 miles on some, and Porsche is moving to a 20,000 mile oil change interval. So I fail to understand why so many people still insist on sticking with 3,000 miles.

Is there any rational reason I should think about using 3,000 mile oil change intervals, other than to make me feel better? I don't plan on keeping my cars for 300,000 miles, so what's the point?

beernut

Eight cars in ten years? For you, there is no point. Stick with dino.

jhinsc

I guess my point was that most of us don't keep our autos long enough to warrant the extra cautious maintenance, such as 3k oil changes. Even if you keep it to 150k, regular maintenance at the manufacturer levels for normal driving is sufficient to keep it running smoothly in most cases. My brother is a perfect example. He'll buy syn oil, use special filters and flushes, change all the lubes in the trans and rear diff., then trades it in on another vehicle because he got bored with what he had. None of the overdone maintenance bought him anything more than higher out-of-pocket expense.

beernut

I agree completely. I sold a 150,000 mile Celica to my wife's cousin. He was thrilled that he could eat off of the rocker arms but I don't think he actually ever did before he sold it to a cowboy down the street six months later. That cowboy parked it behind his shed in 1995 and it resides there now with a nice tree growing out of the passenger side window. Clean push-rods, though!

marsha7

Synthetic 5W-30 in my new cars, changing every 5K miles...are you telling me that Castrol Synthetic is NOT real synthetic oil???...is it fake synthetic oil???...if so, is that the same oxymoron as a genuine imitation???...did I misread the posts, and are my eyes crossing past 11 pm???

wtd44

Synthesizing and Hydrocracking:
These are processes that proceed somewhat in opposite directions to come out with very similar products. The first builds bigger molecules from smaller ones, while the second reduces big molecules into smaller ones. Previous posters have stated that certain court cases have given permission to call the products of these processes "synthetic oil". If I recall correctly, Castrol uses hydrocracking to produce their American market "synthetic oil" product.

dialm4speed

I got my oil changed at Wal-Mart... once!!! When I lifted the hood it looked like they spilled oil on top of the engine. I change my own oil now advise everyone to avoid Wal-Marts auto services.

ruking1

Ya got to love the English language. Castrol is marketing a synthetic "synthetic" oil! :lemon:

wtd44

And in terms of language, synthesize means building something by putting together smaller parts.

ruking1

Kidding aside, Synthetic is now a sort of catch all phrase. So now hydrocracked group three oils can be labeled synthetic. So Mobil One might have lost the battle, but remember that the majority of EM business is oil refinement products and they are a HUGE and MAJOR hydrocracker.

I know it probably has not escaped anybody's notice that Mobil has a new product line up with the " 5,000, 7500, "normal " synthetic and new EP synthetic. So two of the 4 product lines are non group IV's.

wtd44

I remain convinced that Havoline/Chevron has the lead on best bang for the buck. And as an extension of loyalty to the motorcycle maintenance of my youth, I also give the nod to Valvoline (and NAPA label of same).

ruking1

I would agree that Chevron Texaco have EXCELLENT products. I have never understood this from a consumer point of view, but Chevron products are not as ubiquitous in CA as some other brands. As you know the WW headquarters of ChevonTexaco and whatever they call themselves now is in San Ramon, CA not far from the San Jose, CA area. To boot the refineries are 45 miles up the road from San Jose.

l98driver

USE AMSOIL, it's about the same price and you get a way better product, it's better than royal purple,mobil 1, and Red Line Oil. Castrol syntec and most other storebought oils aren't really synthetic because they are hydrocracked. Don't waste your money on pretend synthetic. The only store bought oil that actually is synthetic is Mobil 1 because it still uses the PAO (polyolester) synthetic base stock. I never noticed any difference in how my car performed when using any of the pretend synthetic, then i tried amsoil Series 2000 0W-30, it shifts way smoother, and has better throttle response, and like 3 mpg increase. It costs like 8.70 a quart but is well worth it. You can change it at 35,000 miles to.

shipo

Your indictment of all non-Amsoil products conveniently ignores the fact that under true scientific testing; it is roughly on par with other fully synthetic oils (Mobil-1 and the German version of Castrol Syntec for example). True, the hydro-cracked oils are not as effective at protecting an engine over the long haul, but they are still considerably better than conventional mineral based motor oils.

Regarding your claim of a 3 mpg increase; pure fantasy. It is a fact that any decent 0W-30 "Synthetic" will provide a slight improvement in fuel economy, especially compared to say a 15W-40. However, three miles to the gallon? Not happening. If it was true, every auto manufacturer in the world would be beating a path to the HQ of Amsoil in search of a cheap way to improve their CAFE numbers.

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

Hey man, l98driver clearly knows what he's talking about-I switched my 1985 Seville to Amsoil and added a K&N filter so now I get over 120 mpg and I only have to change the oil every other decade! The car makers can't use Amsoil because they are in cahoots with BIG OIL which wants to drain our wallets.

Mr_Shiftright

now BE NICE :surprise:

basils

Mobil 1, Amsoil, and other premium synthetics are all great oils. Just change them out at a resonable OCI (oil change interval), 5 to 15k, and you can't go wrong. Even if you use an inexpensive dino oil, if changed at 3 to 7k miles, you'll never have any oil related issues. Most modern vehicles can last well into the 150k range with just a basic amount of regular care and good driving habits. Let's not get obsessed...it's just oil folks.

krzyss

that some engines were designed with slighly better oil in mind than "inexpensive dino oil". Try Toyota Camry V6 or VW 1.8T.

Krzys

micweb

You said:

that some engines were designed with slighly better oil in mind than "inexpensive dino oil". Try Toyota Camry V6 or VW 1.8T.

Krzys

I agree 100%. As a rule of thumb, anything German, read the manual and follow it religiously as to grade and type of oil and frequency of changes (on VW, the manual for the humble 2.0 incorporates a synthetic requirement through the "back door" - 5W-40 is recommended and if you do your research you find out it is only available as a full synthetic oil, so if you use the alternate approved 5-30 grade because you can't find 5W-40, it's probably a good idea to use full synthetic in that grade too, although conventional oils in that grade are plentiful - the 2.0 in my experience throws off a lot of heat, particularly drive 80 mph at 4,000 rpm down interstate 5 through the California central valley); and anything small and high revving with a high horsepower output per liter and/or driven with a stick would probably benefit fgreatly rom the extra protection of full synthetic. Automatics tend to be "easier" on oil because they aren't driven as hard as stick shifts, though there are of course exceptions.

I'd add: 5,000 mile oil changes with current "SM" grade, national manufacturer (no house brands or off brands, which may be old fashioned non-hydrogen refined dino oil) are a piece of cake IF you aren't stuck in traffic a lot and DON'T tow or drive a heavy load and DON'T race. The exceptions relate to the fact the #1 enemy of oil life is excess heat. Excess heat comes from either a lack of airflow over the radiator (stuck in traffic, so even though you have not operating load on the motor, you can have heat spikes), pulling a heavy load, and above 3/4 throttle operation. What happens under high stress/high temperature operations is minute quantites of oil "sludge oil" forming tiny globules of sludge.

With a fresh oil, the detergents in the oil keep the sludge from adhering to engine passageways until the oil filter can take it out of circulation. With old oil, besides losing some of its lubricating properties, the sludge can build up faster, the oil filter might be getting loaded, the oil is less detergent and sludge can begin to adhere to passages.

Thus, in a round about way, frequent oil changes (3,000 miles) can keep the problem from ever happening; except that Toyota V-6, Chrysler 2.7, and Passat 1.8 owners all swear they had sludge problems with oil change intervals ranging from 3,000-5,000 miles, which in each case are more frequent than required by the factory manual. This suggests, at least anecdotally (the manufacturers won't share information) that modern conventional motor oils are no longer up to the demands of modern high specific output engines.

I note that sludge problems in Toyota engines, 2.7 Chrysler engines, and 1.8 turbo VW engines are all recent developments. I suspect we may well hear of further sludging problems in other cars, as the horsepower races contine. Here's the problem: higher horsepower generally means more heat generated in a smaller area. We have gone from 90 horsepower 1.8 liter engines in Toyotas to 130 horespower engines. The weight of Corollas, Tercels/Echos/Scions goes up too. So all of these engines are getting more stressed. The same thing with the venerable, easy on oil Chevy pushrod engines. They keep upping the horsepower, from 150 to 170 to 200 and next year to 210 for the 3.4/3.5 engine. IF you drive easy, you'll never tap the available horsepower and throw off the extra heat. BUT if you drive hard, and 80 mph is the new 70 mph after all, well, it's harder on the oil.

Note that the problem so far isn't the ability of fresh oil to adequately lubricate the machined surfaces. It's a problem of thermal breakdown over time.

All the recent oil developments have focused on reducing engine wear additives that can affect catalytic converters and coming up with alternate war additives, plus additives to reduce friction to improve mileage. There has been no effort to produce oils (better "base stocks") that are more heat resistant and/or shear resistant. Actually, there has been, they are called Group III and Group IV full synthetics. Group IV synthetics are "engineered" up, built up from gases. Group III are ultra-highly refined conventional oils, almost to the point of engineering down large molecules to uniform, mroe stable molecules. Most conventional "dino" oil like Pennzoil is not Group I, conventionally refined base oil, it is actuall already Group II or Group II+ (a term coined by Chevron to describe their hydro-cracked/isomerized base stock) and athey re quite good; but unfortunately only Group III and IV oils have the really outstanding shear and heat resistance. I

n other words, when Castrol tells you Syntec (their full synthetic Group III) is better than conventional, it's true, and when oil heads tell you Mobil I (PAO, Group IV) is even better, its true. Unfortunately the average do it yourselfer buys case loads of conventional oil because they are on sale for 99 cents a bottle, and the average driver feels the lube shops are trying to rip him or her off by upgrading him or her from a $30 oil change to a $90 oil change.

Actually, it is true that once you get into Group III and IV oils, the life of the oil is determined more by the life of the additive package than by the breakdown of the oil itself. (Note that Mobil 1 is now promoting a 15,000 mile oil with a special beefed up additive package.*) The additive package life depends in part on engine design (clean, blow by, etc) and partly on driving habits. Personally, if I were using full synthetic in a mild applicatin I would trust oil life monitors (BMW, GM) which can run you out to 7,000-12,000 miles easily, otherwise I go conservative and change at 5,000 miles; I am in it for the performance/protection, not to save a couple of bucks on the single least expensive aspect of car ownership. (Of course I buy my own oil at Walmart and carry it in to dealer express lanes; $70 "premium" oil changes at Jiffy Lube cease to be such a bargain.) Note that if you read between the lines at the new Mobil 1 website, their extended life Mobil 1 is not recommended for "racing," in that case they recommend the traditional Mobil 1.

*Oddly enough, the Mobil 1 Extended doesn't satisfy GF3 standards; rumor has it that this is because it contains some of the older, more effective additives that are being phased out.

div2

You make some excellent points. I would note that Mobil's site doesn't state that their Extended Performance oils aren't suitable for racing-only that their 15000 mile/1 year guarantee doesn't apply to "commercial and racing applications; frequent towing or hauling; extremely dusty or dirty conditions; or excessive idling." In fact, their product data sheet for the Extended Performance oils states "Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 is also well suited for weekend racers who are interested in outstanding engine protection for racing engines and are looking for a higher viscosity oil." I use the 15W-50 Mobil 1 Extended Performance in my 318ti track rat and my wife's 122K 5er precisely because that oil has a more robust additive package. That said, I do change the oil on both cars at 5000-8000 mile intervals-so I doubt that at that mileage the Mobil 1 is anywhere close to breaking down .