Synthetic motor oil

shipo

Ummm, STP was just a VERY thick paraphin based oil, a lubricant good for gumming up the works so to speak, and definetly not good for a modern engine.

Errr, then there was this time in the mid 1970s where a friend of mine and I were down in Baja in his jeep. Said friend ALWAYS used STP oil treatment in all of his cars, I knew because I saw him pouring that stuff into his engine and always teased him about that. Anyway, we were bombing along on some (almost) trail or track when he drove us into a wash (then dry but recently made). Not a half of a mile later his oil pressure tanked and he shut off the motor.

It took all of about ten seconds to discover the hole in the bottom of his oil pan. Hmmm, no roads within, errr, many miles, no phones anywhere to be found, no response on the CB. Not good. In the end, we decided to pub the hole by pounding a piece of wood into the hole and pouring our canteens into the engine.

When we got to (a little) civilization, we drained out the water and refilled with oil, and then when we got back to San Diego we pulled both the head and the oil pan and found no damage. Go figure.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

In situations like that I would definitely use a synthetic oil. Why? Because of the added stability of the synthetics, the oil won't react to being mixed with the internal engine condensation and form acids like conventional oil will. Said another way, fully synthetic oil can hold water in suspension until the oil eventually gets hot enough to allow said water to evaporate or "boil out" of the mixture.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

Thanks, and in your opinion would a change once per year be sufficient (after the warranty period, if applicable, of course).

So Ford's semi-synthetic would not hold water in suspension? I ask because can usually get ~$20 oil changes from Ford dealer and they now routinely use their semi-synthetic oil.

Mr_Shiftright

You have to have had the miserable experience of taking apart an engine previously stuffed with STP to understand why few mechanics miss it.

lessachs

To stay within the guidelines of my car's warranty, I have to change the oil in my Camry every 5,000 miles..I think.
After that, I can do what I want.

w9cw

Here's my experience with Mobil 1 with our 1994 Grand Caravan ES with the 3.3L V6 . . . last month I pulled both heads due to a head gasket leak. While doing that work, it was noted the cross-hatch honing marks in the cylinder bores were still visible. Also, I dropped the oil pan to replace the gasket. The bottom end of the engine was extremely clean.

Overall, I am impressed with the performance of Mobil 1. At the time of the front head gasket leak, the engine had 161K on the clock. I've used Mobil 1 5W-30 since the van was purchased in July 1994. The vehicle is used 60% city/40% highway and the OCI is 3K or 3 months.

shipo

Hehe, the only thing worse than tearing down an engine lubricated with Quaker State or Pennzoil was an engine lubricated with Quaker State or Pennzoil AND STP. Gag! :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

I'm sure you knew this was coming, however, here it is anyway...

"Overall, I am impressed with the performance of Mobil 1. At the time of the front head gasket leak, the engine had 161K on the clock. I've used Mobil 1 5W-30 since the van was purchased in July 1994. The vehicle is used 60% city/40% highway and the OCI is 3K or 3 months."

Of course if you had used cheap dime-store branded oil and done the same 3,000 mile oil changes you would have had the same results. Said another way, throwing away Mobil 1 after only 3,000 miles it throwing away perfectly good oil and won't help your engine last one mile longer.

Live a little, run that oil (or better still Mobil 1 0W-30 or 0W-40) for say 7,500 miles and then send a sample in for analysis. You will without a doubt show extremely low wear metals and be informed that the oil is still good to go for an easy three to five thousand additional miles.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1

Shipo, I wanted to thank you an other posters for encouraging longer oci's I concluded my 3750 w mobil 1 was too frequent so I'm going to 6,000 ocis w/ a mobil 1 filter( I know, I know.) Rome wasn't built in a day. Thanks again,all.

ruking1

"...The vehicle is used 60% city/40% highway and the OCI is 3K or 3 months."

Of course if you had used cheap dime-store branded oil and done the same 3,000 mile oil changes you would have had the same results. Said another way, throwing away Mobil 1 after only 3,000 miles it throwing away perfectly good oil and won't help your engine last one mile longer.

Live a little, run that oil (or better still Mobil 1 0W-30 or 0W-40) for say 7,500 miles and then send a sample in for analysis. You will without a doubt show extremely low wear metals and be informed that the oil is still good to go for an easy three to five thousand additional miles."...

I would also (wholeheartedly) agree! But then I have been running a min of 15,000 mile OCI's for a long time and mileage.

A couple of caveats:
1. do your due diligence
2. I would avoid if I could, those engines demonstrated and known sludge monsters
3. there really are folks who put their cars through the functional equivalent of hell, but indeed think they are "easy" on the machinery.

Other than that, oil analysis tells the "REAL" (trend) story.

It probably (from my point of view, with the change over from LSD to ULSD) needs to be said that when LEADED regular and premium were the rule (there where a few other reasons) longer OCI's were at best dicey. Indeed I ran 3,000 mile OCI's and oil analysis labs were like looking for a needle in a haystack. Running of UNleaded regular and premium is MUCH cleaner.

w9cw

Shipo - no doubt you're correct. I do all the changes myself, and recycle the oil at Advance Auto Parts. So, the only thing I'm out is my money and time - right. Some will say that I'm wasting natural resources, but what I waste is minuscule compared to others.

OTOH, I've never experienced an actual mechanical engine failure due to lubrication in over 40 years of driving, albeit not always with Mobil 1 - used to run Castrol in my Brit cars. We have two "classic" SAAB 900s in this family, both mid-80s vintage with the SAAB H-motors, which are still going strong after hundreds of thousands of miles. One may just reach a million miles, if so, SAAB has a standing offer of a new 9-5 for a documented sample.

On average, we keep a car at least 20 years. They're not just modes of transportation for us, they're family!

blufz1

I suggest you put as many miles as possible on that saab as quickly as possible.

jeffyscott

If I get one of the free kits from Blackstone, can I expect my dealer to be willing to collect a sample for me when they change the oil?

w9cw

There's no way I too will be rewarded with a new 9-5 like the guy recently at the car show. But, I think it's rather cool that SAAB would actually do that! There are many SAAB H-motors with over 500K without any major problems - if, of course, the owners have attended to details. If not, they've probably blown a head gasket, replaced a timing chain, etc. before then.

shipo

"OTOH, I've never experienced an actual mechanical engine failure due to lubrication in over 40 years of driving, albeit not always with Mobil 1..."

I should hope not. Your argument is kind of like saying, "I replace my brake pads ever 10,000 miles and in 40 years of driving, I've never had a scored rotor or drum." So? What's the point? :confuse: If 3,000 mile OCIs are so good, then surely 2,000 mile OCIs would be better. Right? How about 1,000 mile OCIs? Better still, right?

While you've been driving a couple of years longer than me, I can honestly say that in over a million miles I've never experienced an actual engine failure due lubrication either, and yet I push my Mobil 1 three to four times further than you do. While maybe a little more impressive, that too is an irrelevant argument.

The fact is that since the period of time when 3,000 mile OCIs on Quaker State goo was the norm, modern engines and fuels have been developed to the point where they produce far less than one percent of contaminants per horsepower hour than engines and fuels did in that earlier era. Add to the mix fully synthetic oils that can hold many many times the contaminates than could the old "Pennsylvania Grade Crude" lubricants, and suddenly the 15,000 OCI is very much a reality. Like it or not, believe it or not. Want proof? No problem, send a sample of oil to Blackstone or any of the other oil analysis firms out there and take a look at the good hard scientific facts.

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75

I would hope they would be willing to collect a sample for what they're charging you. It really doesn't inconvenience them. Make sure they take the sample from the stream of oil as it drains and don't just scoop it out of a pan. And it's better if it's midstream & not the first or last oil out.... kinda like peeing in a cup.

blufz1

You apparently do a very good job of maintaining them. They seem to be r and m nightmares for most people.

rwisem

I have owned a 2006 Buick Lacrosse 3.6 for 13 months. Prior to that, It was used as a company car. Oil was changed at 3,000 and 7,000 miles.

It is my wifes's car and she only drive 3,000 miles per year. At 10,000 miles (4 months ago) I had Mobil 1 put in. The car has 11,000 miles now.

When should i change oil again? What ramifications does delaying have on the warranty?

imidazol97

Actually the first stream sample can tell about infections and irritations that midstream doesn't. My urologist used a two-part test, two cups.

For oil, it'd be interesting to see what's in the heavy stuff on the bottom of the oil pan after sitting overnight when the owner has used only synthetic.

shipo

"When should i change oil again? What ramifications does delaying have on the warranty?"

While under warranty, the Mobil 1 will be good for the length of the recommended OCI (although I probably wouldn't recommend exceeding 1 year). Once your warranty has expired, then you can start experimenting (using UOAs of course) with how long a quality synthetic is good for in your car.

Best Regards,
Shipo

tamu2002

To eliminate the concern, I changed the oil hot, right after a sufficiently long trip. I collected the midstream. So my sample should be nice and even.

smokey75

I was joking about the urine sample. I said midstream because that's what they recommend. But it would be interesting to send in two oil samples and see the difference.

tamu2002

Finally the results are in! A couple weeks ago I changed the oil in our new 06 Accord 4-cy VP for the first time. We bought it last Sep with 13 miles. The oil was changed at 6180 miles with the oil life monitor at 30%. Below is the Blackstone's report. It looks like Honda definitely knows what it's doing when it recommended leaving the first factory oil in for an extended time untill the monitor tells you to change it. Overall I'm glad I got the oil analyzed for peace of mind and kudos to Honda for an engineering job well executed.

For all you new owners out there, you can now safely do your first oil change late!

************************************************************
Although we normally recommend a shorter interval for your first oil change, you can't go wrong following the oil life monitor that Honda has installed for you. This oil was somewhat abrasive withwear-in metals, but no damage has been done. Now that you've changed this oil out, you can expect to find lower wear metals (from new parts learning to work together) and silicon (from sand-casted parts) in the next sample. The TBN read 4.0, still active additive left. Those monitors seem to get more accurate as the engine ages. Try 6K again to monitor.

selected data:
Accord 4-cy, 2.4L;
Engine miles: 6180;
Oil miles: 6180;
Oil life (time): 6 months;
TBN: 4.0
MOLY: 351 (universal average: 69)
Most of the other metals slightly above universal averages, with a few below averages;
Fuel: <0.5%
Wather: 0
Antifreeze:0
insolubles: 0.2%
SUS Viscosity at 210 F: 49.8 (should be 53-62)
Flash point: 360 (should be >355)

Can someone tell me how to post a picture, so I can post the entire table?

tamu2002

Can someone tell me what this means? Was the oil still within 5w20?

SUS Viscosity at 210 F: 49.8 (should be 53-62)

ruking1

Interesting article in a local rag

" Used car buyers: Be on lookout for sludge" "SLUDGE-Owers filed lawsuits" by Christopher Jensen, pgs 1F 4F, Drive Friday Feb 16,2007 San Jose Mercury News.

..."Thousands of owners of vehicles of popular brands like Chrysler, Dodge, Toyota, Lexus, Volkswagen, Audi and Saab have had sludge problems. Ealier this month, a state judge in LA gave final approval to an out of court settlement of a class action suit against Toyota covering 3.5 M, 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles... In settling, Toyota admitted no defects."...

mickeyrom

Strange that I didnt get notification of your reply.Hmmmm....OK,the Chrysler gets driven at least once a week, and gets on the Hwy at least 2-3 times a month.The 1000miles I referred to was for 6 months.Currently I am using for the first time the "hybrid" oil.Half oil and half synthetic.Was that a bad idea,should I go back to the conventional oil?
I had my first oil change on my KIA 2.4.Im using 5-20 weight Mobil 1.My plan is to change at 6 months regardless of mileage.I put on 1000 pm approx.

mickeyrom

Thats impressive,but until my last oil change I was using petro oil,changing at every 3000 K.Now I plan to change every 6 months regardless of miles.It will definitely be less than 3000.

tamu2002

http://www.carspace.com/tamu2002/Albums/tamu2002%27s%20Album/table.JPG/photo/v./- photo.jpg

shipo

If you are going to be using a fully synthetic Group IV oil, then changing oil with less than 3,000 miles on it every six months is beyond overkill. With such limited mileage, I would absolutely extend my oil changes to once per year, and even that would be overkill.

If you still intend to go with the twice yearly oil changes, I wouldn't bother with the expense of synthetic oil. Instead I would use a high quality conventional oil such as Havoline, and even that oil won't be taxed given your driving scenario.

Best Regards,
Shipo

mickeyrom

I need to change the oil twice a year to maintain my warranty.My reasoning is that although most of the times its driven, short distances,so by using the Mobil 1,I wont have to do it every three months.There is the matter of filters too, which are expensive for my KIA.Anyway,doesn't the synthetic protect the engine better?

shipo

"Anyway,doesn't the synthetic protect the engine better?"

Like everything else in life, "It all depends."

I know that's not what you wanted to hear, however, depending upon a number of factors, a low mileage six month oil change interval with conventional oil will yield the exact same results as the same low mileage six month oil change interval with synthetic oil.

Factors such as what?

Primarily extreme temperature ranges and/or lots of short trips that never allow the car to warm up.

I guess the questions to ask yourself are"

1) Do I routinely cold start the car where the temperature of the oil is below zero degrees Fahrenheit?
2) Do I routinely drive the car loaded to the gills, A/C on Max, pulling a trailer on one hundred plus degree days?
3) Do I routinely cold start the car and then drive less than say five miles before I shut it off long enough for the engine to reach the ambient OAT?

If you answered "Yes" to any of the above (especially question #1), then you might see some benefit from using synthetic oil. Beyond that I really wouldn't bother with synthetic.

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

to Shipo's list that
if lots of cold starts for short trips are your car's use pattern and it's not driven on long trips of 45 to 60 minutes without stopping, preferably at highway speeds to purge the contaminants that are volatile when the oil hits the hot upper part of the motor

then frequent changes should be done. My opinion is use regular oil and change frequently.

If you do drive some trips of length to clean the oil, then synthetic can be considered.

mickeyrom

1) No
2) NO
3) Yes
At any rate,Im pretty much stuck with the synthetic as I was told(cautioned)that once you use synthetic you cant go back to petro based oil.I find that strange since my old Chrysler is using a mixture of synthetic and petro.

mickeyrom

The car gets most its mileage on the highway,but most of the trips are very short .Does that confuse you?
I.e. say its driven 10 times per week in town,maybe 40-50 miles total.Probably less than one hour running time,but when it goes on the road,it quickly gets driven 100 miles plus. Thats in the winter.In the summer it will spend a lot of time on the interstates.We make several 800mi+ round trips almost every month of the summer.So the majority of the miles this car will accumulate will be highway.

Mr_Shiftright

who told you that? You can switch as often as you like. I do it all the time depending on what demands I'm making on my cars.

mickeyrom

If you mean not going back to regular oil after using synthetic,the service manager at Wal Mart.What reason in the world would she have to make that up?She made a point of telling me that.Is she wrong?

smokey75

She is completely wrong. That's an old myth that's still sticking around.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, 'fraid she is wrong. One of those persistent old myths about synthetic oil.

The ONLY quasi-scientific based argument I have ever researched for not using synthetic oil was one put forth by the people at Mazdatrix, who recommend not using synthetic oil in rotary engines.

I've asked engine builders, SAE engineers, anyone I could approach, and they all pooh-pooh the idea that synthetic oil causes leaks or that you can't switch back and forth.

Like I said, I've done it for years in Porsches and Mercedes, no problem.

As for MIXING synthetic and regular oils together habitually, I'm still researching that.

ruking1

"As for MIXING synthetic and regular oils together habitually, I'm still researching that. "...

Though I personally do not practice it, they are completely and utterly compatible.

I don't practice it, for to my way of thinking, it is the worst of both worlds. Having said that, I can see at least one application for topping up say a synthetic oil when it is CLEAR that you will change the oil on a shorter period than the max you would run a conventional oil.

So for example if you run a 15,000 to 20,000 OCI with Mobil One and you would run say a Mobil Drive Clean for 5,000 miles and your sump needs 1 qt of oil at 10,000 to 15,000 and it is 5k left for a synthetic oil change, I could see myself topping with a conventional oil.

Mr_Shiftright

MIXING:

I've tried and tried to get a straight answer on mixing but various sources (many quite credible) constantly contradict each other.

About all I've learned to believe with some degree of certainty is that if you mix equal portions of regular and synthetic you may decrease the lubricating properties of the total oil fill. This makes perfect sense to me...but as to its overall effect on an engine, who knows?

So I guess the best answer I can give is "Don't mix synthetic and regular oil unless you have to for some reason, then okay".

SWITCHING:

Here again, all kinds of contradictory information. In this case as well, the only reasonable conclusion I can make from all my research is that sure, if you've been running regular oil in a crudy, slimey old engine for ten years, then SURE...flush it out first before using synthetic.

Otherwise, on a modern clean low mileage engine, I can't see why you wouldn't switch back and forth.

ruking1

I would not doubt the information is confusing and at times contradictory. However the oil specifications as expressed through the oil standards SM/API etc. etc. have at their very core "mixability" (non technical word, obviously) AND backward compatibility. My take; this is the good news and bad news.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe it's akin to mixing decaf and regular? :P

It works but the effect is diminished?

ruking1

Yes actually! Why I think it is the worst of both worlds is because one of the reasons why I have and will continue to use synthetic oils is because of the longer OCI's. So to put a conventional oil (non subjected to oil analysis both in "undiluted" and "diluted" form) is really a marker to change the oil at shorter miles and intervals. So if I wanted to do this as an on going practice this would need testing a known concentration and type.

In the case of oil specified and certified for the Honda and Ford specifications (0w20,5w20), the bar is considerably raised with Honda recommending a 10,000 mile OCI with conventional oil.

sandman46

Since I drive an '06 Civic with the oil life monitor and do 90% city driving, I'm betting the monitor won't let me go much past 8k miles before it hits 15%. If this would be true, I'd get the same protection by sticking with dino instead of synthetic. At my current rate of driving, I won't even hit 9k miles this year. And since I still have the 10k & 15k service to do at the Honda shop, I'd not even be ready to switch to synthetic until at least 22.5 k on my Civic.

Eventhough synthetic sounds like the better oil to use, my driving habits seem to call for dino juice while using the oil monitor as my change interval guide. I'll save $ and still have a clean engine to boot, but if synthetic would be that much better for my car, I'd gladly switch. I don't honestly see any compelling reason for me to switch over at the 22.5k mark though. Am I making sense here? Ruking and Shipo feel free to jump in any time here.

The Sandman

ruking1

Since I run a (2004) Civic, as well, I can well understand the dilemma you find yourself. The Honda/FORD spec'ed oil 5w20 is MOST impressive and robust despite some obvious (small) exceptions. But since I take it you will probably more than likely switch at 22.5k, I would swag no big deal. Indeed I switched at 10,000 miles after heeding the oem advice to run the oem fill for the full OCI (10,000 miles) My immediate goal is to go three timing belt changes (105k) or 305,000 miles. Since one advantage is to go 20k vs less, for me, that represents 16 oil and filter changes vs 61 oil changes at 5k mile intervals or if you do go once a year or 9k, 34 oil changes. Conventional oil can easily handle 8/9k intervals.

There is additionally a little known SME study whose results basically indicate that new oil and its additives take a few thousand miles to so call stabilize. The funny part that until it stabilizes, the wear is oxymoronically greater during the couple of thousand miles adjustment period. So oil changes every few thousand miles actually CAUSES more wear than oil changed out at a longer interval. So the longer term distance question is how significant would that be at 305,000 miles. Keep in mind the auto salvage statistics indicate 7-8.5 years average age of the fleet. So with an average yearly mileage of 12-15k we are talking between 84k to 128k miles.

mickeyrom

I didnt mix it,it comes that way in the can(plastic container)

mrual

need answer please i have 92 S-10 4.3 since day one driving off the show room floor with my S-10 i`ve allways changed my oil and filter every 3,000 miles , my truck now has 132,000 miles on it my question too you all is it too late to start with mobil 1 extended 10-30 and i`ve heard changing over to mobil one causes oil leaks in older cars ( which i have non thank god) i`ve heard before changing to full mobil 1 extended i should a multi blend first .see i heard alot but still dont know if using mobil 1 extended will be good for my truck and i`m coming up too an oil change soon NEED HELP... :shades:

landmark

I recently got my oil changed, and now the maint. req. icon is on, I read in my owners manual that this icon means that you are due for an oil change, I've checked the oil levels, it's full, I also checked fuses, if any one have experience any thing of this sort please feel free to comment, thanks in advance.

mrual

okay how long can you really go between oil changes using mobil 1 extended i`ve heard 10,000 to 12,000 using mobil 1 oil filter how true is that??? :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

I think people need to sort of....get real...about extended oil changes and AT LEAST consider swapping out the oil filter itself prior to a 12K oil change...

My argument does like this--regardless of the lubricating properties of the oil, filters do collect junk over time, so how much you wanna pack in there?