"I think anyone using extended oic is being penny rich and pound foolish. Hope this helps."
Do you have any science to back up your thoughts?
I ask because I've been running OCIs of between 10,000 and 12,000 miles with Mobil 1 on a domestic car that recommends a 7,500 normal service interval and a 3,750 severe service interval. That car now has 130,000 miles on it, uses about 1 quart of oil every 7,500 miles (the same as it did when it was new), and has stellar UOA results.
Saying that all folks who use extended OCIs are "penny rich and pound foolish" is just like someone from a thousand years ago claiming with absolute certainty that the Sun, Planets, Stars and Universe revolve around the Earth. Like it or not, science says otherwise.
I'm not claiming anything with certainty other than the rather obvious fact the The mfg of the car knows more than you know re the proper oci! If I'm wrong using a too frequent oic so what? I'm out 30 bucks a year more than you? If you are wrong,you are out thousands! Btw my car doesn't use any oil.
I'm getting my oil swapped in my '06 Civic LX next Monday. I have about 5100 miles now with 30% oil life left. I've never gone over 5k miles on any car yet & I don't feel comfortable going over that. Hopefully my mpg's will get a bit better. One question for you though. I'm seriously considering swapping out my steelies & hupcaps for some original Honda 16" wheels. Would any of the 16'er's from this generation or the last fit the car? I've already gotten the correct fitment size for the '06 Civic & was wondering if a swap is doable? I really do like some of the older Accord styles. Any help with this issue from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
I really haven't looked into it carefully, but even so, I am inclind to say it is most likely do able. I haven't done it for a host of reasons, but for sure I would NOT see it as an obstacle, if indeed that is what you have decided you want to do. The upshot problem/s as I see it is the increased chance/s for dissappointment due to the myraid of variables/changes that can affect/effect, that you might or might not have visualized. Or you make a change and you find you don't like one little thing to any to all of it.
"I'm not claiming anything with certainty other than the rather obvious fact the The mfg of the car knows more than you know re the proper oci!"
What is obvious is the fact that the manufacturer of my car calculated the OCI based upon conventional oil, conventional oil made back in 1998. Like it or not, 2006 vintage fully synthetic oil (pick one, German made Castrol Syntec, Mobil 1, Amsoil, it doesn't matter) is capable of properly lubricating our cars for an easy 10,000 to 12,000 miles (with a comfortable margin of error). Scientific testing such as from UOAs proves that point beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Back when I was working for MB-USA (ten years ago now) they were testing their future LEV engine with fully synthetic oil, and what do you suppose they found? I'll tell you, they found that even under the "severe service" of driving in NYC metro traffic (MB-USA is located in the NYC suburb of Montvale, New Jersey), the worst UOA of the five cars they were testing showed that it was still able to go well over 15,000 miles with a comfortable margin of error.
"If I'm wrong using a too frequent oic so what? I'm out 30 bucks a year more than you?"
Thirty dollars only? Do you not account for your time? Even by doing my own oil changes, the cost ranges between $35 and $40 per oil change. Factoring in either the cost of paying someone else to do the oil change or my own time, the cost would most likely range between $75 and $100. Given that I've been driving between 25,000 and 30,000 miles per year for the last couple of years, 3,750 OCIs would cost me $280 per year doing it myself (with not accounting for the labor) or at least $525 per year by taking the labor into account. Truth be told, I cannot imagine needing to do an oil change every four to five weeks so the perceived cost is even higher than that.
By doing oil changes every 11,000 miles (on average), I'm only spending about $120 per year (DIY, no labor) or $225 (with the labor element), however, the money isn't the real issue for me, my precious time is, and I save quite a bit of that.
So, in real world terms, I'm saving several hundred dollars per year and quite a few hours to boot.
"If you are wrong,you are out thousands!"
A fine time to tell me. ;-) I've been using extended OCIs since the early 1980s and between my wife and I, we've driven just over a million miles since then. As with my current car, none of our cars have ever suffered a single wear issue, in fact, two of those cars had engines that sported mechanical valve lifters. So? Well, the particular design of those engines required the valves to be adjusted every 15,000 miles, with shims no less. Funny thing though, neither car required shims before 75,000 miles. So much for premature engine wear.
As for being wrong by thousands, that is ever the cry of the ultra conservatives, however, I'm not wrong and this is proven both anecdotally as well as scientifically.
"Btw my car doesn't use any oil."
Geez, I would hope not. With OCIs of 3,750 you could be using rot-gut oil and still not cause much engine wear for a hundred thousand miles or so.
I'd be willing to siphon out a small amount of oil to send away as I near my next oil change just to see what's happenig with my dino oil. I've seen Blackstone mentioned. Is there another lab with cheaper analyses?
Maybe we could get a discount for Edmunds Users!!!
And that would be 3.5 X more than I pay now PER OIL FILTER So over 20,000 miles, I use one filter and you would use 6. I would pay 2 dollars vs your 42 dollars. Would your oil analysis in the same time and aggregate of 20,000 miles be 21 x's better than my oil analysis?
I've used Blackstone for both automobile and airplane engines and find them to be reasonable ($30 for a basic UOA, $40 with the TBN calculation). There are (or were the last time I checked) several other companies offering competitive services. Off the top of my head I cannot remember their names, however, if you go over to the BITOG UOA database, you can see the names for yourself. ;-)
..."Back when I was working for MB-USA (ten years ago now) they were testing their future LEV engine with fully synthetic oil, and what do you suppose they found? I'll tell you, they found that even under the "severe service" of driving in NYC metro traffic (MB-USA is located in the NYC suburb of Montvale, New Jersey), the worst UOA of the five cars they were testing showed that it was still able to go well over 15,000 miles with a comfortable margin of error. "...
The Honda Civic is rated ULEV. So 20,000 miles on a synthetic such as Mobil One 0w20, 5w20 is still almost a no brainer. I should really do an oil analysis to see if it doesnt warrant 25,000 to 30,000
On the diesel side the new ULSD puts FAR less by products in the oil system than LSD did: meaning even longer OCI's
Shipo, you live in New Hampshire so maybe you can relate to this cheapskate idea.
I wonder (truly) if someone is interested in paying the lowest cost per mile driven for engine lube oil if changing the filter twice as often as the oil wouldn't be more cost effective. In other words, at say 7500 miles you change the filter (a little messy with a spin on, but do-able) and then go out to 15,000 for the oil change?
Incidentally, this is the reverse of the practice in New England when I was growing up. The norm then was to change the oil every 1500 to 2000 miles and the filter only every other change. (This was in the late 50's and early 60's, well before people racked up the miles on Interstates, towing boat trailers, and 500 mile weekend trips.)
I don't care whether it's $42 a year or $75 a year! It's chump change compared to early replacement of your vehicle! I'm not saying that 3750 is some absolute oci. I'm saying I am better off changing a little too soon than a little too late. I have more margin for error. What if the tech is in a hurry and doesn't change my filter? What if the tech doesn't let all the old oil drain?
"Shipo, you live in New Hampshire so maybe you can relate to this cheapskate idea."
Actually I'm from the Detroit area via San Diego, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Detroit, San Jose, Chicago, Manhattan, Bergen County New Jersey, and now southern New Hampshire. ;-)
I remember the first time I read a maintenance schedule for a car that recommended a filter change every other oil change. That was probably around 1970 and even back then I was stunned. Given the strong TBNs of modern oil, and the rejuvenating effects of adding replacement oil, the concept of a filter change mid oil change cycle isn't such a wild idea. Would I do it? Nah, I'd rather buy a high capacity filter (Mobil 1 or some such) and go the full OCI without having to touch the car. FWIW, my UOAs do not show the need for a filter change mid cycle so I'm not at all inclined to do it. ;-)
Lets see, I can understand you feeling that way. However have been huge advances in engines design and also oil additive technology and specifications.
I also have 800,000 plus miles with Mobil One and 15,000 mile oil and FILTER CHANGES. So I am wondering out loud, what is "premature." One had 250,000 miles when I sold it. Another is coming up on 138,000 miles. The rest have been and are at various miles. I sold another to a Mercedes Benz diesel mechanic (works for a MB dealership) who calls me 4 times a year to see if I am interested in selling him another of my (USED) vehicles. he is well aware of my 15,000 mile oil and filter regime.
To be fair I also have app 550,000 miles on conventional oil and know a 1970 VW did just fine to 250,000 miles and it was on 1.5 to 2k oil changes conventional oil. I had one that sludged up royal and that was on 2k to 3k OCI's. conventional oil.
I do have to say I do not miss 1,500 to 3,000 mile oil changes!!!
No, I haven't asked my Amsoil vendor about any remedies. He is one of the larger vendors & author of the Motor Oil Bible. I did e-mail him initially to try & figure out what happened. He mentioned that Nissan engines are notoriously hard on oil for some reason. However, Amsoil doesn't list any Nissan vehicles as being unsuitable for extended drain intervals. On their drain interval recommendation chart it does list some vehicles prone to sludging such as some Toyota's. I may pursue this further. I would be satisfied with a refund.
Well for sure, I know you will do just fine with the 3750-5,000 mile OCI's. But in terms of the useful oil life remaining, it is almost TOTAL overkill. So the modern advances in engines, standards, oil technology (especially the Honda which might sound ho kie but actually likes or runs well on ExxonMobil products such as Mobil One and ExxonMobil Superflo) are almost specifically designed to go longer in the OCI department. The oil analysis like in BITOG truly tell the real story.
And again at the 10 year and app 77k mark passed its smog only test with flying colors.
change to:... and app 75,000 mile mark...
please add:
It was an almost total waste of the fee paid for the smog only test to be run. The numbers recorded were literally the same as when it got its very first smog check.
I like this forum, read it regularly and post on it. But you know, the whole subject may be irrelvant and just a side show. The underlying notion behind this forum is that by paying attention to the quality of the lube oil used and drain intervals we could save money and wind up with a longer lasting vehicle. But isn't the reality that for anyone driving a say, 2000 or newer car and most trucks that the electronics and other systems will fail and fail again well before the engine? A 2001 Volvo XC wagon will become no longer cost effective to run well before it needs an engine. An S Class Mercedes? Probably no one can afford to own one out of warranty. Does anyone actually know anyone who had an engine rebuilt recently? Or short of that, a "ring job" or a "valve job", both quite common up until the mid-60s. Can you even get a set of undersize rod bearings for some of these cars?
The idea of buying, say, a new E Class MB CDI as your last new car just before you retire and then running the diesel for 15 years with rigorous maintenance until it (or you) are no longer roadworthy is appealing. But it overlooks the fact that the electronics and other gadgets will make this buy-and-hold strategy cost-prohibitive.
Maybe the best idea is to use the cheapest lube oil from Walmart that meets the API standards for your service, change it at 6,000 or so miles, mix the used lube oil with linseed oit and use it on your beach house deck every spring. (Now, clearly this doesn't apply to people with early air cooled Porsche 911s, ten year old Dodge Minivans running a quart low with their AC on the max setting across the AZ desert, or someone in northern New England who parks outside and needs the slipperiness of synthetic oil to even get the engine to crank over on sub zero January mornings.)
UPSHOT: Still have to chose the OCI. But the longer.....??
The indications from this thread site and other sources, still indicate the majority of folks still do 3-5k OCI's. It is truly interesting that oils that can go 30,000 miles are coming on the market. Engine design specifications are coming along by calling for longer OCI's.
The scenario of which you speak, 2001 as a base line still has one main problem and that is 10-15-20-25 years have yet to pass. In the mean time, it is really a hoot to let 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 miles go between synthetic oil changes where 3k changes used to do. Does it save product? YUP! lierally LOADS. Using 3k OCI's as the old schoool standard yes 5 X's, 7 X's, 9 X's. IF that was done on the passenger vehicle fleet of 235.4 M vehicles that's a LOT of saved product. Of course it would have a reverse ripple effect throughout the logistical chain that brings these products to market.
But truly whether you keep a vehicle for longer than normal auto salvage time the real question is would you still need to do those miles in the future. The thing that will change obviouslys is the vehicle. You will still be faced with the choices of whether to use 3k 5k,7.5k,10k,12k,15k, 18k, 20k,25k to 30k OCI's.
While I would NOT make a recommendation to legislate this, it seems it would be up to the consumer to let their preferences be known on the OCI parameters.
So for example I personally applaud Honda Civic for having a 10,000 mile OCI with 20,000 mile oil filter change. I also applaud them for higher mpg over the operating range. (they are technically inter related ) I VOTED with my dollars! If they are reading this, this is one more data point in favor of longer OCI's. and mpg!!!
Ruking, I have a little trouble with your posts. (For example, what the heck does this mean "Of course it would have a reverse ripple effect throughout the logistical chain that brings these products to market"?).
I don't agree with your first sentence (in so far as I understand it): "UPSHOT: Still have to choose the OCI". If we are in agreement that most modern cars will have long passed their point of economical repair long before they need a rebuilt engine, why worry about OCI intervals? Without much exageration, you could probably weld the hood shut on most of the Asian imports and run them out to 100K. Now that I think about it, the horrendous cost of repairs on the S Class and 7 Series also indicate that you should weld the damn hood shut and run those out to until their electronics break because there isn't anyone who is going to be able to repair or afford the repairs on one of them. (Few people can even OPERATE the iDrive let alone repair it.)
Two good points. 1. the first one I mean that less product would have to find its way to the market so they would have to scale back some of the logistics delivery system.
2. If by weld shut the hood, you mean just running the car without an oci and then running it out to 100k, (or really one oem OCI) then yes that would really consume WAY less product in theory. Do I understand what you are saying?
More of the same bilge water rhetoric. Dude, save the junk Amsoil marketing noise for the Amsoil (and the billion sites of their minions). This is a place to discuss synthetic oil based such random things as science and empirical evidence. If you cannot discuss things on that level, please, go elsewhere.
At least I'm gaining a wealth of information about synthetic oil from Shipo and Ruking1. They use logic and science to back up what they say. These other guys seem to use their personal opinion based on their questionable evidence & when asked particular questions, they seem to do a dance by using many sentences but never really saying anything. Sounds like they're reading a prepared script or something. Reminds me of when many of my co-workers got involved with this A. E. Williams (?) company. Turned out to be a scam & you never hear about that company anymore. Thanks Shipo & Ruking for giving truthful answers backed up by logical information. All us newbie synthetic oil guys really do appreciate it so we can make informed decisions!
z28com -- you need to update your e-mail address if you want to keep posting in the forums. Please forward your current e-mail address to: karen@edmunds.com
Im about due for my first oil change on my 2006.5 Kia Optima.I intend to use the Mobil 1.Are there any Filters I should avoid?Are original KIA filters the only ones recommended?
As a rule it's tough to go wrong with an OEM filter. Other filters that are held in high regard are the NAPA Gold, Mobil 1, Bosch and Pure 1. To be sure that there are others, however, those are the ones that I can remember off the top of my head.
I would also agree with shipo the ones he uses as an example, and among others they are all fine filters.
I take the so called "Consumer Reports" approach and buy on price with the caveat that it is manufactured by folks like Champion Labs, and of course, they have your size or equivalent. I buy SuperTech filters (by Champion Labs) at WalMart. The everyday price is $2.07 for a Honda Civic size/equivalent.
Tomorrow I will be making the first oil change on my 2006.5 KIA Optima.Is there any real advantage to the synthetic oil or am I better off with the old tried and true standard oil? I have heard that once you use synthetic,you cant go back to conventional.Would that possibly decrease the value of my car at trade in time. In short,what are the advantages ,in your opinions,of synthetic to conventional oil.Thank you in advance. :confuse: PS Should I consider a Fram filter as adequate?
Someone like me wants to keep their vehicles to 10 to 20 years and 250,000, 500,000, 1,250,000 miles. I run a min of 15,000 mile to 25,000 mile OCI's and folks think it borders on verifiable nuts to let's wait to hear when those engines on those cars blow up. I have over 800,000 miles on 15,000 mile OCIS and none of the engines have had any issues!!! ZERO, NADA, NONE.
Tear aparts (such as: valve cover removal and inspection of valve adjustment values) reveal original OEM tool markings and CLEAN. 10 year smog only checks show new car smog compliances.
On the other hand, the folks that want to change their(conventional) oil at 3,5k OCI's (not too much wrong with that from a longitude view) will trade it at a short date certain.!!??
If so, why not just do the oem recommendations? ( such as 7500 miles etc) With the recommended (usually) conventional oil.
When you go to trade it in; at the very most, someone will dip a finger and see if there is normal oil around the oil filler cap. But ultimately unless there is gross body damage it will make little to NO difference.
Thanks....seems like you believe in the synthetic,thats cool.I was hoping for such a response.My plan is to change the oil and filter approx every six months.Does that seem reasonable to you?What about the Fram filter.Any thoughts about that?
See msg #6953. While FRAM has been and probably will continue to be vilified, indeed one of the vehicles I ran with 15,000 mile OCI (Mobil One 5w30) was with FRAM filters. (PH-8A to be specific and 17 each.) The vehicle was used as a daily delivery and client contact vehicle 5 days per week. It also saw duty for weekend trips to the ski mountains.
You say a very high percentage of your customers have very good results even unbelievable results. What results?
The results are their vehicle runs cooler, smoother and gets better fuel economy. No most of them do not test their oil. The diesel guys that run the by pass systems rely on testing, they test, change the full flow 15 micron filter once per year/25,000 miles and their bypass 2 micron filter every two years/ 60,000 miles and replintish the oil. If the oil test comes back with problems they change oil if not they keep on truckin.
As for the crappy results not being a result of the oil... my engine is in sound mechanical order, as Amsoil calls for before using their intervals. At least it was before using Amsoil for 2 years with one year intervals. Who knows what kind condition it's in now. And I'm sure Amsoil will warranty my engine when if it craps out years from now as a result. Good luck proving that one. But which tests show poor condition of the engine, as you said? And the filter was Amsoil, so if it separated or didn't live up to its' efficiency claims I guess we can add their filters to the list of hype.
As for the BITOG forums, you're right I don't know if everybody who had a bad experience with Amsoil actually works for Mobil... but if I were a betting man. I don't think they're promoting a test facility either because there are tests from multiple companies. Many people post the PDF file of the actual test results. And what about the test that was posted on here with the Camaro using Mobil 1 & Amsoil. They had very similar results with Amsoil.
I don't know what the problems are with these vehicle, difficult to tell from a distance. An overheating event certainly will make viscosity go up and TBN go down. Some of them may and could be a vandata against AMSOIL. The Camero test? Not in the neighbor hood of being scientific.
As for Amsoil's test being independent.... Just because it's an "independent" company that did the tests doesn't mean it's actually independent. The firm that did the testing was likely paid by Amsoil. I'm sure they don't work for free. The fact that money was exchanged makes my BS meter start to tingle.
Independent company means independent, again if AMSOIL. was doing anything that reflected a falsehood on other oil products those companies would be up in arms with their legal departments in tow. AMSOIL has to pay for all testing, the labs don't work for free.
I don't know what double freight meant but you do pay freight... which further raises the cost of an already expensive oil. And having 11 warehouses & using UPS doesn't make it "available." What do I do when I'm on vacation & realize I'm a quart low? Order a quart to my hotel?
I don't know what double freight means either, I saw it posted here some time back in someone cutting down AMSOIL, and I don't have the time available to stand guard here to defend, it's just one of those rambling rantings. I get my oil over next day if I order before noon, I call that available. Forteen miles round trip to Wally World, a quarter mile walk to the front door and 10 to 15 minutes standing in line. And they still don't have 0w-40 mobil 1 euro oil. 22 miles round trip to auto zone. 30 seconds to order AMSOIL over the phone.
If I were to need a quart of oil when I was at a hotel? My first choice would be to call the toll free AMSOIL number and find the nearest AMSOIL dealer. Second choice would be to ask the desk clerk were the nearest Wally World or O'rielys was so that I could aquire a quart of that very inexpensive Mobil 1. My vehicles doesn't use oil but if they did I would carry it with me so I would be in such a terrible predicament.
IDCOPE, you keep talking about these great results people have with Amsoil. What about you? I'm assuming you use Amsoil, ever done an oil analysis after a year? Despite what you claim, this is not a "GOTCHA" forum. But there are legitimate problems with the life of Amsoil compared to what they claim and this can't be denied. I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I just have a feeling your opinions of Amsoil are based on the same flawed information that led me to Amsoil also. Thousands of customer testimonials that really don't say anything when you dig into them and ASTM testing that really doesn't show definitively which oil is better. Get an oil analysis!!!! You may be surprised by the results. What do you have to lose?
Your feelings are wrong, I use AMSOIL in every thing, have done some testing in street vehicles and race cars to determine oil change intervals. When the Sociaty of Automotive engineers designed the testing criteria they probably knew that they would never be able to pull the wool over your eyes, but they gave it a good shot anyway.
I'm going up to 5k oci on my 02 v6 Accord. I use mobil 1 what do you guys think re: the 5/20 vs. 5/30 mobil 1? What about the 5/30 extended performance vs mobil 1? Dallas climate,thanks.
Just had my first oil change done by dealer on Kia Optima. It was free, part of the "purchase deal". I usally change it myself, but if it"s free, you gotta take it. I was reading a brochure while at dealer it said "we replace your oil drain gasket, ensuring no leaks." Does any body have experience with this "gasket". I imagine it's a gasket on the drain plug. I been changing oil in GM cars for 30 years and have never had to deal w/ a gasket. Can you reuse them? purchase new ones? What's up?
These "new breed" gaskets/washers are considered one time use CRUSH washers/gaskets. It is of course, NOT recommended to reuse them, even though I have personally reused some of them without leaks or ill effects. So yes, you should/have to either stock em or buy a new one each time.
Anymore the plugs have specfic torque values and depending on any number of factors, you may or may not take a chance of pan deformation by overtightening or thread stripping, leaks, etc, etc.
Since you are an old hand at this, it can be a judgement call.
Comments
Do you have any science to back up your thoughts?
I ask because I've been running OCIs of between 10,000 and 12,000 miles with Mobil 1 on a domestic car that recommends a 7,500 normal service interval and a 3,750 severe service interval. That car now has 130,000 miles on it, uses about 1 quart of oil every 7,500 miles (the same as it did when it was new), and has stellar UOA results.
Saying that all folks who use extended OCIs are "penny rich and pound foolish" is just like someone from a thousand years ago claiming with absolute certainty that the Sun, Planets, Stars and Universe revolve around the Earth. Like it or not, science says otherwise.
Best Regards,
Shipo
One question for you though. I'm seriously considering swapping out my steelies & hupcaps for some original Honda 16" wheels. Would any of the 16'er's from this generation or the last fit the car? I've already gotten the correct fitment size for the '06 Civic & was wondering if a swap is doable? I really do like some of the older Accord styles. Any help with this issue from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
The Sandman
What is obvious is the fact that the manufacturer of my car calculated the OCI based upon conventional oil, conventional oil made back in 1998. Like it or not, 2006 vintage fully synthetic oil (pick one, German made Castrol Syntec, Mobil 1, Amsoil, it doesn't matter) is capable of properly lubricating our cars for an easy 10,000 to 12,000 miles (with a comfortable margin of error). Scientific testing such as from UOAs proves that point beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Back when I was working for MB-USA (ten years ago now) they were testing their future LEV engine with fully synthetic oil, and what do you suppose they found? I'll tell you, they found that even under the "severe service" of driving in NYC metro traffic (MB-USA is located in the NYC suburb of Montvale, New Jersey), the worst UOA of the five cars they were testing showed that it was still able to go well over 15,000 miles with a comfortable margin of error.
"If I'm wrong using a too frequent oic so what? I'm out 30 bucks a year more than you?"
Thirty dollars only? Do you not account for your time? Even by doing my own oil changes, the cost ranges between $35 and $40 per oil change. Factoring in either the cost of paying someone else to do the oil change or my own time, the cost would most likely range between $75 and $100. Given that I've been driving between 25,000 and 30,000 miles per year for the last couple of years, 3,750 OCIs would cost me $280 per year doing it myself (with not accounting for the labor) or at least $525 per year by taking the labor into account. Truth be told, I cannot imagine needing to do an oil change every four to five weeks so the perceived cost is even higher than that.
By doing oil changes every 11,000 miles (on average), I'm only spending about $120 per year (DIY, no labor) or $225 (with the labor element), however, the money isn't the real issue for me, my precious time is, and I save quite a bit of that.
So, in real world terms, I'm saving several hundred dollars per year and quite a few hours to boot.
"If you are wrong,you are out thousands!"
A fine time to tell me. ;-) I've been using extended OCIs since the early 1980s and between my wife and I, we've driven just over a million miles since then. As with my current car, none of our cars have ever suffered a single wear issue, in fact, two of those cars had engines that sported mechanical valve lifters. So? Well, the particular design of those engines required the valves to be adjusted every 15,000 miles, with shims no less. Funny thing though, neither car required shims before 75,000 miles. So much for premature engine wear.
As for being wrong by thousands, that is ever the cry of the ultra conservatives, however, I'm not wrong and this is proven both anecdotally as well as scientifically.
"Btw my car doesn't use any oil."
Geez, I would hope not. With OCIs of 3,750 you could be using rot-gut oil and still not cause much engine wear for a hundred thousand miles or so.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I'd be willing to siphon out a small amount of oil to send away as I near my next oil change just to see what's happenig with my dino oil. I've seen Blackstone mentioned. Is there another lab with cheaper analyses?
Maybe we could get a discount for Edmunds Users!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Best Regards,
Shipo
The Honda Civic is rated ULEV. So 20,000 miles on a synthetic such as Mobil One 0w20, 5w20 is still almost a no brainer. I should really do an oil analysis to see if it doesnt warrant 25,000 to 30,000
On the diesel side the new ULSD puts FAR less by products in the oil system than LSD did: meaning even longer OCI's
I wonder (truly) if someone is interested in paying the lowest cost per mile driven for engine lube oil if changing the filter twice as often as the oil wouldn't be more cost effective. In other words, at say 7500 miles you change the filter (a little messy with a spin on, but do-able) and then go out to 15,000 for the oil change?
Incidentally, this is the reverse of the practice in New England when I was growing up. The norm then was to change the oil every 1500 to 2000 miles and the filter only every other change. (This was in the late 50's and early 60's, well before people racked up the miles on Interstates, towing boat trailers, and 500 mile weekend trips.)
Actually I'm from the Detroit area via San Diego, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Detroit, San Jose, Chicago, Manhattan, Bergen County New Jersey, and now southern New Hampshire. ;-)
I remember the first time I read a maintenance schedule for a car that recommended a filter change every other oil change. That was probably around 1970 and even back then I was stunned. Given the strong TBNs of modern oil, and the rejuvenating effects of adding replacement oil, the concept of a filter change mid oil change cycle isn't such a wild idea. Would I do it? Nah, I'd rather buy a high capacity filter (Mobil 1 or some such) and go the full OCI without having to touch the car. FWIW, my UOAs do not show the need for a filter change mid cycle so I'm not at all inclined to do it. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I also have 800,000 plus miles with Mobil One and 15,000 mile oil and FILTER CHANGES. So I am wondering out loud, what is "premature." One had 250,000 miles when I sold it. Another is coming up on 138,000 miles. The rest have been and are at various miles. I sold another to a Mercedes Benz diesel mechanic (works for a MB dealership) who calls me 4 times a year to see if I am interested in selling him another of my (USED) vehicles. he is well aware of my 15,000 mile oil and filter regime.
To be fair I also have app 550,000 miles on conventional oil and know a 1970 VW did just fine to 250,000 miles and it was on 1.5 to 2k oil changes conventional oil. I had one that sludged up royal and that was on 2k to 3k OCI's. conventional oil.
I do have to say I do not miss 1,500 to 3,000 mile oil changes!!!
And again at the 10 year and app 77k mark passed its smog only test with flying colors.
change to:... and app 75,000 mile mark...
please add:
It was an almost total waste of the fee paid for the smog only test to be run. The numbers recorded were literally the same as when it got its very first smog check.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's the line I was referring to IDCOPE.
Another good post Smokey,
If you were to request help from your dealer or AMSOIL (800-956-5695) I'm sure that help would be forth coming.
And my self as a dealer am very willing to help, any one that needs such can e-mail me, no strings attached.
I will address your concerns Smokey, but time does not allow at the moment.
The idea of buying, say, a new E Class MB CDI as your last new car just before you retire and then running the diesel for 15 years with rigorous maintenance until it (or you) are no longer roadworthy is appealing. But it overlooks the fact that the electronics and other gadgets will make this buy-and-hold strategy cost-prohibitive.
Maybe the best idea is to use the cheapest lube oil from Walmart that meets the API standards for your service, change it at 6,000 or so miles, mix the used lube oil with linseed oit and use it on your beach house deck every spring. (Now, clearly this doesn't apply to people with early air cooled Porsche 911s, ten year old Dodge Minivans running a quart low with their AC on the max setting across the AZ desert, or someone in northern New England who parks outside and needs the slipperiness of synthetic oil to even get the engine to crank over on sub zero January mornings.)
The indications from this thread site and other sources, still indicate the majority of folks still do 3-5k OCI's. It is truly interesting that oils that can go 30,000 miles are coming on the market. Engine design specifications are coming along by calling for longer OCI's.
The scenario of which you speak, 2001 as a base line still has one main problem and that is 10-15-20-25 years have yet to pass.
In the mean time, it is really a hoot to let 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 miles go between synthetic oil changes where 3k changes used to do.
IF that was done on the passenger vehicle fleet of 235.4 M vehicles that's a LOT of saved product. Of course it would have a reverse ripple effect throughout the logistical chain that brings these products to market.
But truly whether you keep a vehicle for longer than normal auto salvage time the real question is would you still need to do those miles in the future. The thing that will change obviouslys is the vehicle. You will still be faced with the choices of whether to use 3k 5k,7.5k,10k,12k,15k, 18k, 20k,25k to 30k OCI's.
So for example I personally applaud Honda Civic for having a 10,000 mile OCI with 20,000 mile oil filter change. I also applaud them for higher mpg over the operating range. (they are technically inter related ) I VOTED with my dollars! If they are reading this, this is one more data point in favor of longer OCI's. and mpg!!!
I don't agree with your first sentence (in so far as I understand it): "UPSHOT: Still have to choose the OCI". If we are in agreement that most modern cars will have long passed their point of economical repair long before they need a rebuilt engine, why worry about OCI intervals? Without much exageration, you could probably weld the hood shut on most of the Asian imports and run them out to 100K. Now that I think about it, the horrendous cost of repairs on the S Class and 7 Series also indicate that you should weld the damn hood shut and run those out to until their electronics break because there isn't anyone who is going to be able to repair or afford the repairs on one of them.
(Few people can even OPERATE the iDrive let alone repair it.)
2. If by weld shut the hood, you mean just running the car without an oci and then running it out to 100k, (or really one oem OCI) then yes that would really consume WAY less product in theory. Do I understand what you are saying?
More of the same bilge water rhetoric. Dude, save the junk Amsoil marketing noise for the Amsoil (and the billion sites of their minions). This is a place to discuss synthetic oil based such random things as science and empirical evidence. If you cannot discuss things on that level, please, go elsewhere.
Reminds me of when many of my co-workers got involved with this A. E. Williams (?) company. Turned out to be a scam & you never hear about that company anymore.
Thanks Shipo & Ruking for giving truthful answers backed up by logical information. All us newbie synthetic oil guys really do appreciate it so we can make informed decisions!
The Sandman
Do you have independent test support for this statement?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've tried to contact you unsuccessfully.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I take the so called "Consumer Reports" approach and buy on price with the caveat that it is manufactured by folks like Champion Labs, and of course, they have your size or equivalent. I buy SuperTech filters (by Champion Labs) at WalMart. The everyday price is $2.07 for a Honda Civic size/equivalent.
In short,what are the advantages ,in your opinions,of synthetic to conventional oil.Thank you in advance. :confuse:
PS Should I consider a Fram filter as adequate?
Upshot: What is/are your goal/s
This is where I see the ultimate irony.
Someone like me wants to keep their vehicles to 10 to 20 years and 250,000, 500,000, 1,250,000 miles. I run a min of 15,000 mile to 25,000 mile OCI's and folks think it borders on verifiable nuts to let's wait to hear when those engines on those cars blow up.
Tear aparts (such as: valve cover removal and inspection of valve adjustment values) reveal original OEM tool markings and CLEAN. 10 year smog only checks show new car smog compliances.
On the other hand, the folks that want to change their(conventional) oil at 3,5k OCI's (not too much wrong with that from a longitude view) will trade it at a short date certain.!!??
If so, why not just do the oem recommendations? ( such as 7500 miles etc) With the recommended (usually) conventional oil.
When you go to trade it in; at the very most, someone will dip a finger and see if there is normal oil around the oil filler cap. But ultimately unless there is gross body damage it will make little to NO difference.
The results are their vehicle runs cooler, smoother and gets better fuel economy. No most of them do not test their oil. The diesel guys that run the by pass systems rely on testing, they test, change the full flow 15 micron filter once per year/25,000 miles and their bypass 2 micron filter every two years/ 60,000 miles and replintish the oil. If the oil test comes back with problems they change oil if not they keep on truckin.
As for the crappy results not being a result of the oil... my engine is in sound mechanical order, as Amsoil calls for before using their intervals. At least it was before using Amsoil for 2 years with one year intervals. Who knows what kind condition it's in now. And I'm sure Amsoil will warranty my engine when if it craps out years from now as a result. Good luck proving that one. But which tests show poor condition of the engine, as you said? And the filter was Amsoil, so if it separated or didn't live up to its' efficiency claims I guess we can add their filters to the list of hype.
As for the BITOG forums, you're right I don't know if everybody who had a bad experience with Amsoil actually works for Mobil... but if I were a betting man. I don't think they're promoting a test facility either because there are tests from multiple companies. Many people post the PDF file of the actual test results. And what about the test that was posted on here with the Camaro using Mobil 1 & Amsoil. They had very similar results with Amsoil.
I don't know what the problems are with these vehicle, difficult to tell from a distance. An overheating event certainly will make viscosity go up and TBN go down. Some of them may and could be a vandata against AMSOIL. The Camero test? Not in the neighbor hood of being scientific.
As for Amsoil's test being independent.... Just because it's an "independent" company that did the tests doesn't mean it's actually independent. The firm that did the testing was likely paid by Amsoil. I'm sure they don't work for free. The fact that money was exchanged makes my BS meter start to tingle.
Independent company means independent, again if AMSOIL. was doing anything that reflected a falsehood on other oil products those companies would be up in arms with their legal departments in tow.
AMSOIL has to pay for all testing, the labs don't work for free.
I don't know what double freight meant but you do pay freight... which further raises the cost of an already expensive oil. And having 11 warehouses & using UPS doesn't make it "available." What do I do when I'm on vacation & realize I'm a quart low? Order a quart to my hotel?
I don't know what double freight means either, I saw it posted here some time back in someone cutting down AMSOIL, and I don't have the time available to stand guard here to defend, it's just one of those rambling rantings.
I get my oil over next day if I order before noon, I call that available. Forteen miles round trip to Wally World, a quarter mile walk to the front door and 10 to 15 minutes standing in line. And they still don't have 0w-40 mobil 1 euro oil. 22 miles round trip to auto zone.
30 seconds to order AMSOIL over the phone.
If I were to need a quart of oil when I was at a hotel? My first choice would be to call the toll free AMSOIL number and find the nearest AMSOIL dealer. Second choice would be to ask the desk clerk were the nearest Wally World or O'rielys was so that I could aquire a quart of that very inexpensive Mobil 1.
My vehicles doesn't use oil but if they did I would carry it with me so I would be in such a terrible predicament.
IDCOPE, you keep talking about these great results people have with Amsoil. What about you? I'm assuming you use Amsoil, ever done an oil analysis after a year? Despite what you claim, this is not a "GOTCHA" forum. But there are legitimate problems with the life of Amsoil compared to what they claim and this can't be denied. I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I just have a feeling your opinions of Amsoil are based on the same flawed information that led me to Amsoil also. Thousands of customer testimonials that really don't say anything when you dig into them and ASTM testing that really doesn't show definitively which oil is better. Get an oil analysis!!!! You may be surprised by the results. What do you have to lose?
Your feelings are wrong, I use AMSOIL in every thing, have done some testing in street vehicles and race cars to determine oil change intervals.
When the Sociaty of Automotive engineers designed the testing criteria they probably knew that they would never be able to pull the wool over your eyes, but they gave it a good shot anyway.
To precover the 5/30 EP Mobil One, why would you want to pay a premium to an already premium on Mobil One 5w30, when you will do a 5k OCI?
Anymore the plugs have specfic torque values and depending on any number of factors, you may or may not take a chance of pan deformation by overtightening or thread stripping, leaks, etc, etc.
Since you are an old hand at this, it can be a judgement call.