- the life of the oil vs. the life of the additives vs the sludging effects of short trips.
Here's my take:
1. Synthetic oil is more heat resistant. Hence its a good application if you rev your engine high (have a stick shift OR drive an automatic at full throttle or close to full throttle). A stick shift is a particular problem since sometimes people hold high rpm longer than they have to. It's also a good application for towing, and for stop and go driving (stop and go driving has much higher average engine temperatures since the cooling system is relying on the engine fan instead of the air flow for cooling, and the engine fan only comes on when you are at the "top" of the permitted temperature range - so essentially you are always running at the high end of the temperature range - on my car with a digital indicator, it's a 20 degree difference).
2. Due to the more uniform molecule size of synthetic oil, it doesn't require as many "viscoscity index improver" additives. In fact Mobil 1 5-30 was reported to have NO vi improvers, so it wouldn't shear down and lose grade. On the other hand it was considered a little "thin" for a 30 wt....
So those are the advantages. The actual OIL is tougher and lasts longer IF you never turn off your car and just cruise on the freeway. Or have a bypass filter. On the other hand,
3. The additive packs in synthetic oils may or may not last any longer than the additive packs in regular oil. You get what you pay for. Schaeffer uses "conventional" oil but expensive additive packs and seems to hold up well on longer oil drain intervals. Mobil 1 Extended claims 15k oil changes under "normal" service conditions. But personally I feel their is a limit, and additive packs get depleted at a fairly uniform rate; actually some of the best additives in terms of antiwear, for example, are no longer used due to catalytic converter poisoning issues. So to me, the real issue isn't oil life or oil robustnes (unless you drive like a bat out of hell or tow), its additive pack life. And that gets impacted by driving conditions....
4. More of us drive in "severe" conditions that we think. Chrysler used to recommend 7,500 oil change using oil that is now 3 generations out of date. And their definition of normal vs. severe threw most drivers into the normal category. Now their manuals try to steer most drivers into the severe category - for example you are a "severe" driver if your routine trips are under 10 miles. My Chevy oil life monitor predicts an 8,500 mile change interval on my 30 mile freeway commute. My wife's oil life monitor asks for 2,700 mile oil changes based on her neighborhood short drives. AND that's with us living in mild California weather. So what do I do with our PT Cruiser which seems to get more city driving than freeway? 3,000 mile changes.
5. Short trips or medium trips in cold weather are "sludge builders," and sludge, not excessive engine wear, seems to kill more engines. See all that white vapor coming out of the tail pipe of cars just warming up? If you don't completely warm up your engine, you don't "boil" the inevitable water by product out or your engine oil. Or "boil" out gasoline blow by that gets in the crankcase. Net result - dead adddive pack and engine sludge.
So here's my take on engine oil. If my driving habits allow an extended change, as on my commute, I use full synthetic. I go for 5,000-6,000 miles between change. I am less worried about additive package life than the life of the actual oil - I use full synthetic since I drive a stick shift, hence occasional redline runs, and I don't want degradation of grade (shear) which can take place with the irregular molecules of conventional oil and thei vi packs.
For my wife's car, automatic, I use conventional oil because the additive pack is (probably) shot well before the oil is getting sheared. And she is barely warming up the car, so heat breakdown sludge isn't an issue. Mobil 1 Extended wouldn't help me at all, since water condensation in the oil would overwhelm the oil anyway (and I don't use M1 Extended in my stick shift since M1 Extended has less raw engine protection than regular M1, which is optimized for engine protection instead of oil life).
HENCE at the end of the day I recommend conventional oil changes with a national branded oil or oil from a good refiner (Philips/Conoco) to the soccer moms I know, and M1 or Pennzoil Platinum (still an unknown quantity) to the leadfoot males, but urge them not to extend the drain beyond 4,000-5,000 miles (5,000 is the max permitted by Ford these days, for example).
Motorcraft 5-20 for cars that take it - the 5-20 spec is already robust (more so than the last generation 5-30 spec) and the Ford spec overlaid on that halves the permitted wear levels on 6,000 mile intervals. Most major brand 5-20's satisfy the Ford spec, if you read the fine print. Due to the robustness of the spec, from the get-go 5-20 (at least from Ford's supplier, Philips/Conoco) was a synthetic blend - hydrocracked Goup II or II+ with Group II as well - and is a steal at $2.00 a quart from Walmart). Reportedly Castrol uses Group II in their "conventional" 5-20, Group II+/Group III in their blend, and Group III in their full synthetic. TropArtic is from Philips/Conoco and is a blend at a conventional price; one of my alternatives for 5-30 use.
But it's hard to go wrong. Chevron and Halvoline are reportedly great, underrated oils. Pennzoil is owned by Shell now and turns out a top quality conventional oil. Etc.!
Let's see fellow forum members, Shipo related that he experienced some hard starting with at least one (if not more) of his cars in some extreme cold weather, but he did not answer my question which particular of his beloved oils (Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec made in Germany) along with the specific weight of the oil he used when he encountered such problems. Everyone knows that if the car is not starting very well due to frigid temperatures, you will be experiencing excessive engine wear, since the oil will be quite thick and not pumping through your engine too easily. It doesn't matter if the oil is brand new out of the bottle with a complete oil change done the day before you experience such poor starting episodes. If that new oil is frozen and not easily flowing through the engine, you will be creating premature engine damage, which presumably is metal to metal contact, which is not good. You can then do the oil analysis on your car a few months later after encountering that hard winter starting and what would you likely find? That the oil is still good within its factory specs, but what about what happened a few months earlier when the weather was frigid and your vehicle was so hard to start? So much for exclusively depending upon an oil analysis as a benchmark to determine the viability of your oil! You might have thought your engine protection was superb at the time of the hard winter starting with fresh oil (in a frozen state) in your engine's crankcase. By the way, it is pretty common knowledge in all the scientific community that hard starting in the winter equates to premature engine damage.
I disseminate AMS Oil troll? Sure seems to me that there are far more folks on this chat forum that uphold Mobil 1 in the highest esteem and seem to be recommending it to everyone, so does that make all of them guilty of Mobil 1 troll?
All I advocate is to experiment with a quite a number of different brands of oil and see which one performs the best. What I don't see in this forum are members providing us a history of using a number of different products and why they feel their now recommended oil has performed the best for them.
I have seen Shipo indicate that he would not use AMS Oil if it was the last synthetic on earth! Wow! That is a strong statement and only because of the advertising done by AMS Oil? Yet, I don't believe he can state that any of the advertising done by that company was false in any way. I understand that Exxon Mobil has not challenged AMS Oil legally in any of their advertisements and comparison testing. If there are other folks out there with such a similar mind-set against using AMS Oil under any circumstances, then why not try a synthetic made by NEO or Redline, which I understand from my research are great oils. There, you see, I have recommended trying two of AMS Oil's competitors to all the AMS Oil skeptics, who, like Shipo, will not try AMS Oil even it was the last synthetic oil left on earth! Wow, just to think that if AMS Oil was the last synthetic on earth that someone would go back to dino juice. Ouch!!
Where is an AMS oil store where I can stop in a hear and see data here in the US? If it is a good oil, it will have suppliers willing to pedal it through the distribution channels. I like seeing products going through legitimate channels where I can sue or an attorney can foment a class action suit. (Just got notice for another class action of which I am a member of the class Saturday.)
Guys.... It's the FILTER! You can't save money by going further than the mfg recommended change intervals. I change oil and filter @ 3750 severe service interval. I use Mobil 1.
Lenght of filter life is just a function of capacity. You have to use a higher capacity filter for extended drain intervals. Amsoil & Mobil both offer these for example.
The BITOG web site (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com) has literally hundreds of UOAs posted in their database section, it's a great resource. For my part I'd restrict my research to the true Mobil 1 line versus the Amsoil line as the Mobil 1 EP line has always been more of a marketing gimick (from my perspective anyway).
Also from my perspective, the only three Mobil 1 oils that I would consider for my cars are the 0W-xx weights (i.e. 0W-20, 0W-30 and 0W-40). The zero weight oils have very low pour points, flow faster when cold, come up to pressure faster when cold, and generally yield excellent UOAs.
Actually this research is on MSDS sheets, independent oil analysis of so called "virgin" right out of the container products. There is a web site bobistheoilguy.com, where all this data is posted.
The other interesting thing is that (using the example of Mobil One) is almost a non sound bite able logic based on the anti monopoly laws. To cut to the upshot of the laws, as germane to the synthetic oil thread; what it means is you can only compel someone to use a particular oil ONLY if you provide it. So people with brands such as MB or BMW are probably familiar with the synthetic oil that is actually provided at (usually) a 10,000 mile OCI. Since they provide it they can so called "compel" its use. So for example on a 2002 MB 320, the factory (through its participating dealers ) will perform a 10,000 mile OCI using their products oil filter etc and MB specified (synthetic) oil. So for another example if YOU want a 5,000 mile OCI, and say use NEO or Redline (PAO synthetics) they will eventually comply but will tell you it is on your nickel. They will of course give you the normal boiler plate yada yada about maintaining the warranty, but IF it meets specifications and you pay for it, it is moot to compel you!? They can if they are paranoid, refuse service. NOT likely especially if you are paying for it.
The real heart of the matter are the increasingly specific oil specifications. Again for example, ACEA, Honda, Ford, Chysler, BMW, GM 4178 M, it really does go on and on and on. So increasingly the refiners are increasingly losing their "one size fits all" application codes. So people like Mobil One do actually submit their representative products FOR independent testing and pay the fees to wear the specification logos they have paid for and in fact do meet.
AMSOIL on the other hand DOES NOT. They do not pay the independent certification agencies nor the fees they charge to wear the logos which indicate they comply with the specs they do comply with. They of course certify to their consumers that indeed they do their own testing to so called meet these standards and they say they will help you file appeals to fix denied warranties due specifically to oil specific damage. More importantly theirs specifically. Essentially it is not prove able in almost all cases. What this means in direct english is the chances of the damage being caused by oil is remote. Damage due to specific oil is even more remote. If for some reason in reading this one does not understand what is really being said it would probably be worth your while to go to a web site such as bobistheoilguy.com
I'm doing research on synthetic oils so I can make an informed decision on which to use in my car. When I do a search on "synthetic oil tests" on google, I find tons of websites on supposed "tests" between brands; yet, all of them are just advertisements for "Amsoil".
My thinking is that Amsoil marketing has purchased tons of web-site names and have posted virtually the same information on all of them to give a "one-sided" advertisement of their own product.
In my opinion, there's certainly something fishy going on there. No matter what search term I use (best synthetic oil, synthetic oil tests, synthetic oil comparison, etc), I just get advertisements for Amsoil. I'm finding it VERY difficult to get any reliable and unbiased information.
And this overwhelming flood of Amsoil advertising is very bothersome to me. I'm not going to post all of the sites, but here the first dozen or so that came up when searching for independent synthetic oil information:
To be fair, NONE of the oil companies make a secret of advertising to sell their products. Amsoil basically has made their decision/s to deploy their budget/s and %'s differently, ie to suit them? Your research shows that to be "TRUE".
The first place to start is really your particular vehicles' oil specifications data from either the owners, shop manuals, web sites, etc.
So if you are really focusing on PAO IV oils, then the market is pretty thin, very very few suspects. Mobil One is the best known, (aka advertised) Amsoil, Redline, Neo, ELF, etc. I probably left a few out, but that is not the point.
So called "synthetic" or NOT majority PAO IV, aka PAO III or so called "hydrocracked" products literally abound.
I have app 805,000 miles on Mobil One products (5w30, 5w40, 0w20, 5w20) with 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's and absolutely NO engine problems or OIL RELATED engine problems. Ask me anecdotally what you will if you are interested.
Ric White the links that you put down are almost all Amsoil dealers. Amsoil had a third party company do seven different test on oils from Amsoil to Pennzoil to Trop Artic Synthetic Blend. Amsoil had the company publish the test results how ever they came out. You can see these results at www.dnk-oil.com then go to free catalog and click on the catalog then click on the home on the amsoil page on the right side you will see click here to see how amsoil stacks up to the competition. That is the test results from the independent company that ran the test. Hope this helps
Why don't you just put a link to the page. With your directions I end up here http://www.dnk-oil.com/4436.html I don't see any great verified test reports by an impartial "third" party.
I work for a company that has 7 vehicles and an owner that checks every penny. We changed our vehicles to Amsoil last year we ran the vehicles for one year or 25,000 miles before we changed the oil. The owner of the company checked the money saved and the better gas mileage now he has ordered Amsoil for all the vehicles again this year and for his own vehicle. Amsoil saved our company money over a year’s time. And gave our vehicles better protection. I know from our company using it and using it myself it works. Amsoil has direct dealers that sell their product. There are stores that sell Amsoil, and Motorcycle repair shops that sell Amsoil also. Amsoil has also been around since 1972 selling 25,000 mile oil. As for the test results I have left a message where you can get independent testing of Amsoil, Mobile 1 Pennzoil and others. None of these companies have ever argued the point or showed any test results that any of these oils are better than Amsoil and you know if they could they would.
Here is better directions go to www.amsoil.com on the right side of the page under new articles click on Click here to see how Amsoil stacks up to the competition this is the independant test rusults and if you go anywhere else and need a ref # use 1088272. And right abouve this article is one from Guardian Pest Control that was written by the companyies Presdient look at what he has to say he has 60 vhieles and how much money they save. Does anyone have anything on any other oils to show saving like these.
Personally I'm not leaving any oil in a car for 25000 miles. That would be 1.5 years. I'm changing oil every 6 months or less to get the contaminants out of the oil.
I hope this discussion isn't going to become another Zaino. If AMSoil is so great, we'd find it at Pepboys, Advance Auto, NAPA, etc.
If someone wants to find out more about ALL synthetic oils and how they perform under various conditions, mileages and cars, go to www.bobistheoilguy.com and read the thousands of oil analysis reports and opinions on that website.
You wrote: If AMSoil is so great, we'd find it at Pepboys, Advance Auto, NAPA, etc.
Not to throw more gasoline on this Zaino-like fire, but...a friend on another VW Passat forum told me that he just saw Amsoil at his NAPA store near Pittsburgh for $5.75 a quart....
Not to fan the flames any more, but higher cost, paying double shipping, lack of availability and need to stock are several reasons why I don't use products such as Amsoil, ELF, Neo, Redline. Actually they are very fine and superb products. I can buy Mobil One of the shelf in Torrance, CA Taos, NM or Tampa FL. Of course when Mobil One goes on sale you can beat the off the shelf price of 5.75 (or whatever) by 1.50 per quart. Find the secret coupons and... why don't they just give it to ya!?
Is Mobil 1 worth the extra cost -- about 50% more than either PP or CS?
Reports indicate that Pennzoil Platinum is very good. Haven't seen many reports on Castrol Syntec. I assume they are similar and would have similar test results.
My preliminary choice taking into account cost is Pennzoil Platinum.
I'm about to take the big plunge and switch to Mobil 1 on my Kia Optima(2006.5)Any thoughts? PS..is it true that once you use synthetic,you cant go back?
Why can't I buy AMSOIL at Wally World or AutoZone???
Answer:
In 1972 Mr Amatuzio was a retired Lt. Col with a great product and not much resources to mount a large advertising campaign. He went with independent distributors to market his product and he promised them that he would always protect their business interest and not sell out to the big box stores. 35 years later this is still true because he is a man of his word and has even turned down a 24 million dollar first order offer from Wally World as they wanted to sell AMSOIL at a price that would put all dealer instantly out of business.
AMSOIL has been testing motor oils and publishing the results for over 20 years and has never been challenged by any other motor oil producer. When Mr. Amatuzio started the company it was first called AMZOIL and immediately Pennzoil filed a lawsuit for using the zoil in AMSOIL, so you can see how fast a legal challenge would be generated if the published comparisons were false. Have you ever seen any testing data from the other oil companies? They would rather keep it quiet and make commercials about pulling pianos down they road or dumping sludge on cars. Oh yea, AMSOIL isn't forcing ANYONE to run AMSOIL for 25,000 miles, heaven forbid that. Larry, 25000mileoil.com
Is it true that once you start using synthetic oil,you cannot go back to regular oil.I need an answer soon because next week I will be getting my first oil change on my new KIA Optima.
No it's not true. You can switch from synthetic to dino and back and forth as much as you like. I do this all the time depending on what I'm driving and how I'm driving it, and have done this for years and years will no ill effects.
Sometimes I'd switch to synthetic when I planned some high speed desert driving in my old Porsche, then switch back to dino to save $$ for normal California city driving (old 911 Porsches carry large quantities of oil in a dry sump).
Other times, I switched from synthetic to dino because I was expecting easier start ups or better fuel mileage and was unable to achieve any noticeable results. Then again, on a few cars I found easier start ups were a great benefit when I lived in extremely cold climates.
And I've never lost an engine in a car I've owned.
You can switch back and forth or mix oils, it is not optimal for your engine to mix them as the producers have invested some time and expertise in getting the right combination of base stocks and additive packages. I would suspect that this old wives tale probably got started at quick lube vendors, they want you to come back every 3000 miles and give them some money.
...turned down a 24 million dollar first order offer from Wally World as they wanted to sell AMSOIL at a price that would put all dealer instantly out of business.
So in other words, the price of the product is kept artificially high in order to support a multi-level pyramid marketing scheme (ala. Mary Kay, Tupperware, Avon, Amway, etc.).
I must have not got my story understandable, let me add to it:
Let's examine the design criteria for the synthetic oils,
AMSOIL: is to be the best oil it can be, the price of the ingredients are secondary, another words make the best product and the world will beat a path to your front door.
The ones on the shelf at Wally World: Let's design this oil to a price point to compete on the shelf price, we can cut corners on the additive package and in some cases the base stocks too.
When the additive manufacturers come up with new technology the first stop is at AMSOIL. AMSOIL isn't concerned with the price, they are interested in how soon they can get the new technology in their product. When the additive companies go to the other synthetic oil producers the first thing they want to know is the price.
Also at AMSOIL Synthetic motor oil is the core business and is the primary focus every day and has been since 1972. Most of the Wally Worlders' it's a side line business. They all do a four ball wear test but do you see it posted on their data sheets? No. Why not? If you call their customer service and request it they have all kinds of excuses, I read sometime back were Red Line said you can take shampoo and get a small wear scar, what kind of logic is that? And someone even believed it and posted it on the internet.
Here is a flat out statement from Mr.Amatuzio:
"Our company makes the best lubricants in the world period, and challenges anyone or any company to prove us wrong! That won't happen because our competitors know it's true." A.J. Amatuzio, President and CEO, AMSOIL.
I proudly post this statement on my website 25000mileoil.com and I stand by it too.
I have used Mobil 1 also, in fact I have used all the oils over the years.
In the early 80's I used mobil 1 in a 82 GMC pick up and lost two lobes and lifters on the 305 engine.
I used Mobil 1 in my 93 Mustang GT and had an oil leak on the rear main and had an overheating problem, I put AMSOIL 5w-30 in and it cured both problems.
Hey guys from a personal standpoint I don't care what kind of oil you use, if you want to waste our natural resources and you money, I guess that's your business and it's your loss. We have literally 100,000's of testimonial stories and happy customers and I don't know of another business opportunity where you can start with a $65 start up cost and do so much good and create so much satisfaction. Price? The last time I was in Wally World the price on Mobil 1 extended was $6.62 per quart for 5w-30, I'll match that price and deliver it to your door and offer an additional 10,000 miles to your oil change intervals in normal service.
The Company owner is a man of his word The best warranty The best price The best oil The best oil filters The best air filters The best gear lube The best transmission fluid
Hey I love to talk about this stuff, pitch me another hardball
Price? The last time I was in Wally World the price on Mobil 1 extended was $6.62 per quart for 5w-30, I'll match that price and deliver it to your door and offer an additional 10,000 miles to your oil change intervals in normal service.
Can you match or beat 4.42 for Amsoil equivalent, Mobil One 5w30 (GM 4178 M specification) 0w30 is fine if it meets spec. AND deliver to the door as part of the price?
Can you match or beat 4.20 for Amsoil equivalent, Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40 (VW diesel application) AND deliver to the door as part of the price?
Can you match or beat 4.40 for Amsoil equivalent, Mobil One (Honda specification)0w20, 5w20 AND deliver to the door as part of the price?
The most bang for your buck is not in a in a bottle for bottle price comparison but in a yearly cost comparison.
It cost about $60 per year/25,000 miles normal service (15,000 miles severe service) to use AMSOIL Synthetic Motor oil and oil filters. You can calculate your own cost of what you use and compare the value. It cost about $120 per year for conventional oil changed at 3000 mile intervals for 25,000.
From a personal basis I have 8 vehicles to take care of wife, daughters and Mom etc, if I changed every 3000 or 5000 I would be changing oil all the time.
In conclusion, I can't match the per quart price be I can exceed the value price.
No, what you wrote was understandable, just not filled with any substance.
"AMSOIL: is to be the best oil it can be, the price of the ingredients are secondary, another words make the best product and the world will beat a path to your front door."
Uh-huh, well if price is secondary, how come Amsoil isn't $20 per quart, or $50, or even $100?
"The ones on the shelf at Wally World: Let's design this oil to a price point to compete on the shelf price, we can cut corners on the additive package and in some cases the base stocks too."
Unsubstantiated bilge water.
"When the additive manufacturers come up with new technology the first stop is at AMSOIL. AMSOIL isn't concerned with the price, they are interested in how soon they can get the new technology in their product."
References? Proofs? Personally I suspect that your rhetoric is running a little rampant.
"When the additive companies go to the other synthetic oil producers the first thing they want to know is the price."
The bilge water is getting deep in here.
"They all do a four ball wear test but do you see it posted on their data sheets? No. Why not?"
Simple. It is a completely irrelevant test. There isn't a single location inside a modern engine that sees shearing forces of the type seen in the four-ball test.
"Our company makes the best lubricants in the world period, and challenges anyone or any company to prove us wrong! That won't happen because our competitors know it's true." A.J. Amatuzio, President and CEO, AMSOIL.
Another irrelevant statement. I don't think most folks think that Amsoil is bad oil, in fact, most probably think its pretty good oil, maybe even the best in the world, however, that doesn't even remotely mean that others (Mobil 1, GC Syntec...) aren't also the best in the world too. The simple fact is that there is nothing in the Amsoil formulation that isn't in other oils as well. As I see it, there really isn't much of a differentiating factor between the best oils from the various premier synthetic oil manufacturers.
"I proudly post this statement on my website 25000mileoil.com and I stand by it too."
Irrelevant marketing hype. That said, bilge water like this is the very reason many folks, myself included, won't ever use Amsoil.
"In the early 80's I used mobil 1 in a 82 GMC pick up and lost two lobes and lifters on the 305 engine."
While I'm not going to call you a liar, my bet is that there is more to this story than you are letting on. I used Mobil 1 back then too and ran three cars to well over 100,000 miles. I know, not terribly impressive, however, those were turbocharged cars and factory turbos will still in top form when I traded them in.
"I used Mobil 1 in my 93 Mustang GT and had an oil leak on the rear main and had an overheating problem, I put AMSOIL 5w-30 in and it cured both problems."
Oh geez, I better start looking for my snorkel... Amsoil "cured" both an overheating problem and an oil leak? Yeah, right.
"Hey guys from a personal standpoint I don't care what kind of oil you use, if you want to waste our natural resources and you money, I guess that's your business and it's your loss. We have literally 100,000's of testimonial stories and happy customers and I don't know of another business opportunity where you can start with a $65 start up cost and do so much good and create so much satisfaction."
Testimonials from satisfied customers. So? What does that prove? Pure propaganda, Goebbels would be proud.
"Price? The last time I was in Wally World the price on Mobil 1 extended was $6.62 per quart for 5w-30, I'll match that price and deliver it to your door and offer an additional 10,000 miles to your oil change intervals in normal service."
Only a fool would run Amsoil 5W-30 in any engine for 25,000 miles on your say-so alone (or Amsoil's for that matter). UOAs tell the true story, and sorry to tell you, I have yet to see a single UOA from a verified 25,000 OCI that would lead me to even think of keeping any oil from any manufacturer in the world in my engine for more than 12,000 to 15,000 miles.
In the meantime, peddling your wares here in the TownHall is a very annoying breach of the "Rules of the Road". I have no problem continually shooting down your high minded and overbearing protestations to the superiority of Amsoil; however, I would appreciate it if you would play Amway Peddler elsewhere.
I do it per mile lubricated. The per mile lubricated calculation does the math for the OC intervals obviously. But still the qt or gal or whatever price is needed to get even this calculation. So I take the answer to be no.
So for example I run 25,000 mile OCI's for the 5w40 product. So an easy comparison would be 4.20 - 6.62= 2.42/6.62=36.6% cheaper.
So using 25,000 miles (same OCI cycle) /4.20 AND 6.62= .000168/.0002648 respectively, this of course = 36.6% cheaper.
For comparison purposes only, another conversion would be if I wanted to even up the cost, I could run the Mobil One 37% less or to 16,000 miles.
So for example if I do an oil analysis at 20-45 dollars and am not happy with the Amsoil results at 25,000 miles, Amsoil will pay for the oil analysis and give me a refill of new oil needed for this vehicle product? Specifically 5 quarts.
I don't believe leaving any oil in the sump for 25000 miles is reasonable or rational for anyone in this discussion. If someone is an outside salesperson driving their car 250 miles plus like one salesperson calling on me long ago, I might see that as a reasonable interval (also explained why he drove a Mercedes and didn't use AMSoil).
I hope this isn't turning into the AMSoil sales forum. I thought Edmunds tried to prevent that. I can understand having a discussion as long as Shipo thinks it's on track, but the blurb about additives being cheapened and oil base stocks to fit into Walmart's world doesn't phase me one bit. The topic of oils is related to my area of expertise. And I have a college roomie I can call on about this to see if it's bilgewater or not--now where is his email address. I don't know if I can find it. I may have to write since he works in the industry I'd value his opinion.
"I thought Edmunds tried to prevent that. I can understand a discussion as long as Shipo thinks it's on track..."
Hehe, thank for the compliment, however, I'm not a host nor am I affiliated in any way with Edmunds or any oil manufacturer for that matter, and as such I have no say as to what is on track or not. ;-) That said, I've been around long enough to know that blatent self promotion (or even subtle sales efforts) are quickly quashed by the hosts.
It almost goes without saying the technicals are changing much faster than attitudes. This of course is a good thing/bad thing.
Oil analysis and trend analysis are really the real tests. The real problem is even on this august following, the majority of folks do not do it 2. it is really not a common experience where folks would even know what to do with it even if it WAS a common experience. I would venture a guess that upwards of 99% do not. OLM's indeed are a good substitute, but again are suspect by most folks?
Examples of "changing" technicals,
Honda Civic has a OCI recommendation of NORMAL 10,000 miles (for those without OLM). This is with CONVENTIONAL oil 5w20, 0w20 !!!!
Corvette has for several years and several generations of cars C4,C5,C6 recommended synthetic, specifically 5w30 Mobil One. C5 gen has OEM OCI recommendations of up to 15,000 miles and with OLM, mine kicks on at 14,500-14,800 miles.
VW 507.00 specification oil is rated to 30,000 miles !!!!!! As you can probably guess this oil is so called "synthetic" Is it a PAO IV? I don't really know, one would have to research it or "peel back the layers" for the answers.
Attitudes?
So as a comparison, the qwikie lube industry surveys' indicate the AVERAGE OCI (most folks do) is 5,000 miles. Qwikie lubes of course want to beat that back to 3,000 or less.
"Honda Civic has a OCI recommendation of NORMAL 10,000 miles (for those without OLM). This is with CONVENTIONAL oil 5w20, 0w20 !!!!"
While I understand that the Honda 5W-20 oil is considered a "Conventional Oil", I am under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that oils that meet the Honda spec are at least partially synthetic (i.e. a synthetic blend). Yes, no? :confuse:
Comments
Here's my take:
1. Synthetic oil is more heat resistant. Hence its a good application if you rev your engine high (have a stick shift OR drive an automatic at full throttle or close to full throttle). A stick shift is a particular problem since sometimes people hold high rpm longer than they have to. It's also a good application for towing, and for stop and go driving (stop and go driving has much higher average engine temperatures since the cooling system is relying on the engine fan instead of the air flow for cooling, and the engine fan only comes on when you are at the "top" of the permitted temperature range - so essentially you are always running at the high end of the temperature range - on my car with a digital indicator, it's a 20 degree difference).
2. Due to the more uniform molecule size of synthetic oil, it doesn't require as many "viscoscity index improver" additives. In fact Mobil 1 5-30 was reported to have NO vi improvers, so it wouldn't shear down and lose grade. On the other hand it was considered a little "thin" for a 30 wt....
So those are the advantages. The actual OIL is tougher and lasts longer IF you never turn off your car and just cruise on the freeway. Or have a bypass filter. On the other hand,
3. The additive packs in synthetic oils may or may not last any longer than the additive packs in regular oil. You get what you pay for. Schaeffer uses "conventional" oil but expensive additive packs and seems to hold up well on longer oil drain intervals. Mobil 1 Extended claims 15k oil changes under "normal" service conditions. But personally I feel their is a limit, and additive packs get depleted at a fairly uniform rate; actually some of the best additives in terms of antiwear, for example, are no longer used due to catalytic converter poisoning issues. So to me, the real issue isn't oil life or oil robustnes (unless you drive like a bat out of hell or tow), its additive pack life. And that gets impacted by driving conditions....
4. More of us drive in "severe" conditions that we think. Chrysler used to recommend 7,500 oil change using oil that is now 3 generations out of date. And their definition of normal vs. severe threw most drivers into the normal category. Now their manuals try to steer most drivers into the severe category - for example you are a "severe" driver if your routine trips are under 10 miles. My Chevy oil life monitor predicts an 8,500 mile change interval on my 30 mile freeway commute. My wife's oil life monitor asks for 2,700 mile oil changes based on her neighborhood short drives. AND that's with us living in mild California weather. So what do I do with our PT Cruiser which seems to get more city driving than freeway? 3,000 mile changes.
5. Short trips or medium trips in cold weather are "sludge builders," and sludge, not excessive engine wear, seems to kill more engines. See all that white vapor coming out of the tail pipe of cars just warming up? If you don't completely warm up your engine, you don't "boil" the inevitable water by product out or your engine oil. Or "boil" out gasoline blow by that gets in the crankcase. Net result - dead adddive pack and engine sludge.
So here's my take on engine oil. If my driving habits allow an extended change, as on my commute, I use full synthetic. I go for 5,000-6,000 miles between change. I am less worried about additive package life than the life of the actual oil - I use full synthetic since I drive a stick shift, hence occasional redline runs, and I don't want degradation of grade (shear) which can take place with the irregular molecules of conventional oil and thei vi packs.
For my wife's car, automatic, I use conventional oil because the additive pack is (probably) shot well before the oil is getting sheared. And she is barely warming up the car, so heat breakdown sludge isn't an issue. Mobil 1 Extended wouldn't help me at all, since water condensation in the oil would overwhelm the oil anyway (and I don't use M1 Extended in my stick shift since M1 Extended has less raw engine protection than regular M1, which is optimized for engine protection instead of oil life).
HENCE at the end of the day I recommend conventional oil changes with a national branded oil or oil from a good refiner (Philips/Conoco) to the soccer moms I know, and M1 or Pennzoil Platinum (still an unknown quantity) to the leadfoot males, but urge them not to extend the drain beyond 4,000-5,000 miles (5,000 is the max permitted by Ford these days, for example).
But it's hard to go wrong. Chevron and Halvoline are reportedly great, underrated oils. Pennzoil is owned by Shell now and turns out a top quality conventional oil. Etc.!
I disseminate AMS Oil troll? Sure seems to me that there are far more folks on this chat forum that uphold Mobil 1 in the highest esteem and seem to be recommending it to everyone, so does that make all of them guilty of Mobil 1 troll?
All I advocate is to experiment with a quite a number of different brands of oil and see which one performs the best. What I don't see in this forum are members providing us a history of using a number of different products and why they feel their now recommended oil has performed the best for them.
I have seen Shipo indicate that he would not use AMS Oil if it was the last synthetic on earth! Wow! That is a strong statement and only because of the advertising done by AMS Oil? Yet, I don't believe he can state that any of the advertising done by that company was false in any way. I understand that Exxon Mobil has not challenged AMS Oil legally in any of their advertisements and comparison testing. If there are other folks out there with such a similar mind-set against using AMS Oil under any circumstances, then why not try a synthetic made by NEO or Redline, which I understand from my research are great oils. There, you see, I have recommended trying two of AMS Oil's competitors to all the AMS Oil skeptics, who, like Shipo, will not try AMS Oil even it was the last synthetic oil left on earth! Wow, just to think that if AMS Oil was the last synthetic on earth that someone would go back to dino juice. Ouch!!
Happy Holidays everyone!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Sandman
Also from my perspective, the only three Mobil 1 oils that I would consider for my cars are the 0W-xx weights (i.e. 0W-20, 0W-30 and 0W-40). The zero weight oils have very low pour points, flow faster when cold, come up to pressure faster when cold, and generally yield excellent UOAs.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The other interesting thing is that (using the example of Mobil One) is almost a non sound bite able logic based on the anti monopoly laws. To cut to the upshot of the laws, as germane to the synthetic oil thread; what it means is you can only compel someone to use a particular oil ONLY if you provide it. So people with brands such as MB or BMW are probably familiar with the synthetic oil that is actually provided at (usually) a 10,000 mile OCI. Since they provide it they can so called "compel" its use. So for example on a 2002 MB 320, the factory (through its participating dealers ) will perform a 10,000 mile OCI using their products oil filter etc and MB specified (synthetic) oil. So for another example if YOU want a 5,000 mile OCI, and say use NEO or Redline (PAO synthetics) they will eventually comply but will tell you it is on your nickel. They will of course give you the normal boiler plate yada yada about maintaining the warranty, but IF it meets specifications and you pay for it, it is moot to compel you!? They can if they are paranoid, refuse service. NOT likely especially if you are paying for it.
The real heart of the matter are the increasingly specific oil specifications. Again for example, ACEA, Honda, Ford, Chysler, BMW, GM 4178 M, it really does go on and on and on. So increasingly the refiners are increasingly losing their "one size fits all" application codes. So people like Mobil One do actually submit their representative products FOR independent testing and pay the fees to wear the specification logos they have paid for and in fact do meet.
AMSOIL on the other hand DOES NOT. They do not pay the independent certification agencies nor the fees they charge to wear the logos which indicate they comply with the specs they do comply with. They of course certify to their consumers that indeed they do their own testing to so called meet these standards and they say they will help you file appeals to fix denied warranties due specifically to oil specific damage. More importantly theirs specifically. Essentially it is not prove able in almost all cases. What this means in direct english is the chances of the damage being caused by oil is remote. Damage due to specific oil is even more remote. If for some reason in reading this one does not understand what is really being said it would probably be worth your while to go to a web site such as bobistheoilguy.com
My thinking is that Amsoil marketing has purchased tons of web-site names and have posted virtually the same information on all of them to give a "one-sided" advertisement of their own product.
In my opinion, there's certainly something fishy going on there. No matter what search term I use (best synthetic oil, synthetic oil tests, synthetic oil comparison, etc), I just get advertisements for Amsoil. I'm finding it VERY difficult to get any reliable and unbiased information.
And this overwhelming flood of Amsoil advertising is very bothersome to me. I'm not going to post all of the sites, but here the first dozen or so that came up when searching for independent synthetic oil information:
http://www.oilsandlube.com/
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/
http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/
http://www.lubeoilsales.com/
http://www.smartsynthetics.com/
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/
http://bestsyntheticoil.com/
http://www.thebestoil.com/
http://www.thefirstsyntheticoil.com/
http://www.allsyntheticsgroup.com/
http://www.bestsynthetic.com/
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/AutoIndustry'sBestKeptSecret.htm
http://www.hightechoil.com/
The first place to start is really your particular vehicles' oil specifications data from either the owners, shop manuals, web sites, etc.
So if you are really focusing on PAO IV oils, then the market is pretty thin, very very few suspects. Mobil One is the best known, (aka advertised) Amsoil, Redline, Neo, ELF, etc. I probably left a few out, but that is not the point.
So called "synthetic" or NOT majority PAO IV, aka PAO III or so called "hydrocracked" products literally abound.
I have app 805,000 miles on Mobil One products (5w30, 5w40, 0w20, 5w20) with 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's and absolutely NO engine problems or OIL RELATED engine problems. Ask me anecdotally what you will if you are interested.
http://www.dnk-oil.com/4436.html
I don't see any great verified test reports by an impartial "third" party.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Amsoil has direct dealers that sell their product. There are stores that sell Amsoil, and Motorcycle repair shops that sell Amsoil also.
Amsoil has also been around since 1972 selling 25,000 mile oil.
As for the test results I have left a message where you can get independent testing of Amsoil, Mobile 1 Pennzoil and others. None of these companies have ever argued the point or showed any test results that any of these oils are better than Amsoil and you know if they could they would.
I prefer to go with my own experience and half a dozen oil analysis done over the last 5 years.
In my personal experience Amsoil is equal, not better or worse than Mobil 1.
The fact that the Amsoil dealers and the Amsoil website mention a lot of positive testimonials proves nothing.
I hope this discussion isn't going to become another Zaino. If AMSoil is so great, we'd find it at Pepboys, Advance Auto, NAPA, etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If someone wants to find out more about ALL synthetic oils and how they perform under various conditions, mileages and cars, go to www.bobistheoilguy.com and read the thousands of oil analysis reports and opinions on that website.
Draw your own conclusions.
If AMSoil is so great, we'd find it at Pepboys, Advance Auto, NAPA, etc.
Not to throw more gasoline on this Zaino-like fire, but...a friend on another VW Passat forum told me that he just saw Amsoil at his NAPA store near Pittsburgh for $5.75 a quart....
Is Mobil 1 worth the extra cost -- about 50% more than either PP or CS?
Reports indicate that Pennzoil Platinum is very good. Haven't seen many reports on Castrol Syntec. I assume they are similar and would have similar test results.
My preliminary choice taking into account cost is Pennzoil Platinum.
Thoughts?
PS..is it true that once you use synthetic,you cant go back?
What's the price spread between Pennzoil, M1 and Castrol Syntec in your neck of the woods?
Check the forums.
Pennzoil Platinum is about $4 qt. Mobil 1 is about $6 qt. Castrol Syntec is about $4.50 qt.
Answer:
In 1972 Mr Amatuzio was a retired Lt. Col with a great product and not much resources to mount a large advertising campaign. He went with independent distributors to market his product and he promised them that he would always protect their business interest and not sell out to the big box stores. 35 years later this is still true because he is a man of his word and has even turned down a 24 million dollar first order offer from Wally World as they wanted to sell AMSOIL at a price that would put all dealer instantly out of business.
AMSOIL has been testing motor oils and publishing the results for over 20 years and has never been challenged by any other motor oil producer. When Mr. Amatuzio started the company it was first called AMZOIL and immediately Pennzoil filed a lawsuit for using the zoil in AMSOIL, so you can see how fast a legal challenge would be generated if the published comparisons were false.
Have you ever seen any testing data from the other oil companies? They would rather keep it quiet and make commercials about pulling pianos down they road or dumping sludge on cars.
Oh yea, AMSOIL isn't forcing ANYONE to run AMSOIL for 25,000 miles, heaven forbid that. Larry, 25000mileoil.com
Sometimes I'd switch to synthetic when I planned some high speed desert driving in my old Porsche, then switch back to dino to save $$ for normal California city driving (old 911 Porsches carry large quantities of oil in a dry sump).
Other times, I switched from synthetic to dino because I was expecting easier start ups or better fuel mileage and was unable to achieve any noticeable results. Then again, on a few cars I found easier start ups were a great benefit when I lived in extremely cold climates.
And I've never lost an engine in a car I've owned.
You can switch back and forth or mix oils, it is not optimal for your engine to mix them as the producers have invested some time and expertise in getting the right combination of base stocks and additive packages.
I would suspect that this old wives tale probably got started at quick lube vendors, they want you to come back every 3000 miles and give them some money.
Larry
www.25000mileoil.com
So in other words, the price of the product is kept artificially high in order to support a multi-level pyramid marketing scheme (ala. Mary Kay, Tupperware, Avon, Amway, etc.).
So the real value is somewhere at the price Walmart was offering to buy then retail it for. I'll stick with Mobile and the other brands. Thanks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I must have not got my story understandable, let me add to it:
Let's examine the design criteria for the synthetic oils,
AMSOIL: is to be the best oil it can be, the price of the ingredients are secondary, another words make the best product and the world will beat a path to your front door.
The ones on the shelf at Wally World: Let's design this oil to a price point to compete on the shelf price, we can cut corners on the additive package and in some cases the base stocks too.
When the additive manufacturers come up with new technology the first stop is at AMSOIL. AMSOIL isn't concerned with the price, they are interested in how soon they can get the new technology in their product.
When the additive companies go to the other synthetic oil producers the first thing they want to know is the price.
Also at AMSOIL Synthetic motor oil is the core business and is the primary focus every day and has been since 1972. Most of the Wally Worlders' it's a side line business. They all do a four ball wear test but do you see it posted on their data sheets? No. Why not? If you call their customer service and request it they have all kinds of excuses, I read sometime back were Red Line said you can take shampoo and get a small wear scar, what kind of logic is that? And someone even believed it and posted it on the internet.
Here is a flat out statement from Mr.Amatuzio:
"Our company makes the best lubricants in the world period, and challenges anyone or any company to prove us wrong! That won't happen because our competitors know it's true." A.J. Amatuzio, President and CEO, AMSOIL.
I proudly post this statement on my website 25000mileoil.com and I stand by it too.
I have used Mobil 1 also, in fact I have used all the oils over the years.
In the early 80's I used mobil 1 in a 82 GMC pick up and lost two lobes and lifters on the 305 engine.
I used Mobil 1 in my 93 Mustang GT and had an oil leak on the rear main and had an overheating problem, I put AMSOIL 5w-30 in and it cured both problems.
Hey guys from a personal standpoint I don't care what kind of oil you use, if you want to waste our natural resources and you money, I guess that's your business and it's your loss. We have literally 100,000's of testimonial stories and happy customers and I don't know of another business opportunity where you can start with a $65 start up cost and do so much good and create so much satisfaction.
Price? The last time I was in Wally World the price on Mobil 1 extended was $6.62 per quart for 5w-30, I'll match that price and deliver it to your door and offer an additional 10,000 miles to your oil change intervals in normal service.
The Company owner is a man of his word
The best warranty
The best price
The best oil
The best oil filters
The best air filters
The best gear lube
The best transmission fluid
Hey I love to talk about this stuff, pitch me another hardball
Larry 25000mileoil.com
Can you match or beat 4.42 for Amsoil equivalent, Mobil One 5w30 (GM 4178 M specification) 0w30 is fine if it meets spec. AND deliver to the door as part of the price?
Can you match or beat 4.20 for Amsoil equivalent, Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40 (VW diesel application) AND deliver to the door as part of the price?
Can you match or beat 4.40 for Amsoil equivalent, Mobil One (Honda specification)0w20, 5w20 AND deliver to the door as part of the price?
Not hardball, just price.
Thanks for the reply.
The most bang for your buck is not in a in a bottle for bottle price comparison but in a yearly cost comparison.
It cost about $60 per year/25,000 miles normal service (15,000 miles severe service) to use AMSOIL Synthetic Motor oil and oil filters. You can calculate your own cost of what you use and compare the value. It cost about $120 per year for conventional oil changed at 3000 mile intervals for 25,000.
From a personal basis I have 8 vehicles to take care of wife, daughters and Mom etc, if I changed every 3000 or 5000 I would be changing oil all the time.
In conclusion, I can't match the per quart price be I can exceed the value price.
Thanks Again
Larry
No, what you wrote was understandable, just not filled with any substance.
"AMSOIL: is to be the best oil it can be, the price of the ingredients are secondary, another words make the best product and the world will beat a path to your front door."
Uh-huh, well if price is secondary, how come Amsoil isn't $20 per quart, or $50, or even $100?
"The ones on the shelf at Wally World: Let's design this oil to a price point to compete on the shelf price, we can cut corners on the additive package and in some cases the base stocks too."
Unsubstantiated bilge water.
"When the additive manufacturers come up with new technology the first stop is at AMSOIL. AMSOIL isn't concerned with the price, they are interested in how soon they can get the new technology in their product."
References? Proofs? Personally I suspect that your rhetoric is running a little rampant.
"When the additive companies go to the other synthetic oil producers the first thing they want to know is the price."
The bilge water is getting deep in here.
"They all do a four ball wear test but do you see it posted on their data sheets? No. Why not?"
Simple. It is a completely irrelevant test. There isn't a single location inside a modern engine that sees shearing forces of the type seen in the four-ball test.
"Our company makes the best lubricants in the world period, and challenges anyone or any company to prove us wrong! That won't happen because our competitors know it's true." A.J. Amatuzio, President and CEO, AMSOIL.
Another irrelevant statement. I don't think most folks think that Amsoil is bad oil, in fact, most probably think its pretty good oil, maybe even the best in the world, however, that doesn't even remotely mean that others (Mobil 1, GC Syntec...) aren't also the best in the world too. The simple fact is that there is nothing in the Amsoil formulation that isn't in other oils as well. As I see it, there really isn't much of a differentiating factor between the best oils from the various premier synthetic oil manufacturers.
"I proudly post this statement on my website 25000mileoil.com and I stand by it too."
Irrelevant marketing hype. That said, bilge water like this is the very reason many folks, myself included, won't ever use Amsoil.
"In the early 80's I used mobil 1 in a 82 GMC pick up and lost two lobes and lifters on the 305 engine."
While I'm not going to call you a liar, my bet is that there is more to this story than you are letting on. I used Mobil 1 back then too and ran three cars to well over 100,000 miles. I know, not terribly impressive, however, those were turbocharged cars and factory turbos will still in top form when I traded them in.
"I used Mobil 1 in my 93 Mustang GT and had an oil leak on the rear main and had an overheating problem, I put AMSOIL 5w-30 in and it cured both problems."
Oh geez, I better start looking for my snorkel... Amsoil "cured" both an overheating problem and an oil leak? Yeah, right.
"Hey guys from a personal standpoint I don't care what kind of oil you use, if you want to waste our natural resources and you money, I guess that's your business and it's your loss. We have literally 100,000's of testimonial stories and happy customers and I don't know of another business opportunity where you can start with a $65 start up cost and do so much good and create so much satisfaction."
Testimonials from satisfied customers. So? What does that prove? Pure propaganda, Goebbels would be proud.
"Price? The last time I was in Wally World the price on Mobil 1 extended was $6.62 per quart for 5w-30, I'll match that price and deliver it to your door and offer an additional 10,000 miles to your oil change intervals in normal service."
Only a fool would run Amsoil 5W-30 in any engine for 25,000 miles on your say-so alone (or Amsoil's for that matter). UOAs tell the true story, and sorry to tell you, I have yet to see a single UOA from a verified 25,000 OCI that would lead me to even think of keeping any oil from any manufacturer in the world in my engine for more than 12,000 to 15,000 miles.
In the meantime, peddling your wares here in the TownHall is a very annoying breach of the "Rules of the Road". I have no problem continually shooting down your high minded and overbearing protestations to the superiority of Amsoil; however, I would appreciate it if you would play Amway Peddler elsewhere.
Best Regards,
Shipo
So for example I run 25,000 mile OCI's for the 5w40 product. So an easy comparison would be 4.20 - 6.62= 2.42/6.62=36.6% cheaper.
So using 25,000 miles (same OCI cycle) /4.20 AND 6.62= .000168/.0002648 respectively, this of course = 36.6% cheaper.
For comparison purposes only, another conversion would be if I wanted to even up the cost, I could run the Mobil One 37% less or to 16,000 miles.
I missed your substance.
Larry
So for example if I do an oil analysis at 20-45 dollars and am not happy with the Amsoil results at 25,000 miles, Amsoil will pay for the oil analysis and give me a refill of new oil needed for this vehicle product? Specifically 5 quarts.
I don't believe leaving any oil in the sump for 25000 miles is reasonable or rational for anyone in this discussion. If someone is an outside salesperson driving their car 250 miles plus like one salesperson calling on me long ago, I might see that as a reasonable interval (also explained why he drove a Mercedes and didn't use AMSoil).
I hope this isn't turning into the AMSoil sales forum. I thought Edmunds tried to prevent that. I can understand having a discussion as long as Shipo thinks it's on track, but the blurb about additives being cheapened and oil base stocks to fit into Walmart's world doesn't phase me one bit. The topic of oils is related to my area of expertise. And I have a college roomie I can call on about this to see if it's bilgewater or not--now where is his email address. I don't know if I can find it. I may have to write since he works in the industry I'd value his opinion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hehe, thank for the compliment, however, I'm not a host nor am I affiliated in any way with Edmunds or any oil manufacturer for that matter, and as such I have no say as to what is on track or not. ;-) That said, I've been around long enough to know that blatent self promotion (or even subtle sales efforts) are quickly quashed by the hosts.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Oil analysis and trend analysis are really the real tests. The real problem is even on this august following, the majority of folks do not do it 2. it is really not a common experience where folks would even know what to do with it even if it WAS a common experience. I would venture a guess that upwards of 99% do not. OLM's indeed are a good substitute, but again are suspect by most folks?
Examples of "changing" technicals,
Honda Civic has a OCI recommendation of NORMAL 10,000 miles (for those without OLM). This is with CONVENTIONAL oil 5w20, 0w20 !!!!
Corvette has for several years and several generations of cars C4,C5,C6 recommended synthetic, specifically 5w30 Mobil One. C5 gen has OEM OCI recommendations of up to 15,000 miles and with OLM, mine kicks on at 14,500-14,800 miles.
VW 507.00 specification oil is rated to 30,000 miles !!!!!! As you can probably guess this oil is so called "synthetic" Is it a PAO IV? I don't really know, one would have to research it or "peel back the layers" for the answers.
Attitudes?
So as a comparison, the qwikie lube industry surveys' indicate the AVERAGE OCI (most folks do) is 5,000 miles. Qwikie lubes of course want to beat that back to 3,000 or less.
While I understand that the Honda 5W-20 oil is considered a "Conventional Oil", I am under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that oils that meet the Honda spec are at least partially synthetic (i.e. a synthetic blend). Yes, no? :confuse:
Best Regards,
Shipo