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"AMSOIL's XL grade is a blend of super refined dinosaur juice with synthetic oil that most everyone seems to be accusing Exxon Mobil (the corporation that made more profits in one year than any company in U.S. history) of using with their Mobil 1 brand."
I've seen lots of noise about Mobil using Group III base oil for their Mobil 1 EP product line, however, I've never seen any evidence that the Mobil 1 (non-EP) product line is manufactured with anything other than a full PAO base. Do you have any references to any science suggesting that any of the Mobil 1 (non-EP) oils are anything other than a Group IV base oil?
FWIW, per the MSDS for the Mobil 1 EP 5W-30, even EOM admits that they are using a Group III for that oil by saying, "Contains: Base oil severely refined...". With that in mind, I personally have no doubt at least some of the Mobil 1 EP oils are built with a Group III base.
"I saw specs published on the net that indicated that as of March of 2003, Mobil 1 only used a TBN of 5.0 in their grade of 5 W 30..."
I just checked dozens of Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 EP VOAs going back to 2002, and the lowest TBN of any of them was from an old Mobil 1 0W-20 VOA, and that was still 9.5. The lowest Mobil 1 5W-30 (non-EP) that I found was 10.7 and the lowest Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 that I found was 10.6. Said another way, I think your data suggesting a 5.0 TBN for a 5W-30 Mobil 1 oil is highly suspect. Could you possibly have been looking at a UOA or a VOA from one of the conventional oils sold by EOM?
It's a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder with 82,000 miles. 3.5L V6 engine. My driving habits are typical... does not meet Nissan or Amsoil's criteria for severe usage.
I was using the true Amsoil synthetic... not the XL line. The Ea oil filter wasn't out yet so this was the 6 month filter, & yes I changed it at 6 months & topped off. I was using the Ea air filter.
"I'm not disputing that it is... but if Mobil 1 is a full PAO base why wouldn't they state this on their product data sheets?"
Don't know for sure but there are plenty of potential reasons:
1) Over the years they've consistently stated that Synthetic Oil = PAO, and they are still maintaining that assertion. 2) With #1 in mind, reading the MSDSs for every non-EP Mobil 1 product line, EOM claims "Contains: Synthetic base oils..." Hmmm, sounds like a synthetic to me. 3) With #1 in mind, reading the MSDSs for the Mobil 1 EP product line, one will encounter such language as, ">"Contains: Base oil severely refined..." as well as "...Synthetic base oils..." for at least one of the three. Ohhh, this sounds like a Synthetic Blend to me. 4) EOM isn't the only maker of engine oil these days that is holding their formulation cards close to the vest (so to speak). In these days of Gas Chromatograph testing, it is very difficult to keep proprietary formulations secret.
Points one through three say to me that they (EOM) are being as forthcoming as they need to be or even should be. Why "should be"? Well, it's possible that I have a slightly different perspective maybe on this issue compared to most folks. As a U.S. Patent holder, intellectual property is very important to me, and that leads me to point #4. Why give your competition any indication whatsoever about what you are doing? I say to the management at EOM, "Folks, be as cagey as possible."
I just bought a new Kia Optima with a 4cyl. engine.I am considering using synthetic oil.I would change oil and filter twice a year.The brand I dont know about.I get my oil changes at Wal Mart,so they probably have several brands.Any advice anyone could give me would be most appreciated.
The best is to start with your oem's owner's manual or technical manual recommendations, for both oil specifications and oil change intervals.
So for example, the 2004 Honda Civic oem's recommendation is a 5w20 (conventional oil) meeting HONDA specifications. The OCI recommendation is 10,000 miles and for those with the OLM, at a specific % left.
The manual (for example) also says pretty plainly the MAJORITY of drivers do fall into the NORMAL cycle. Translation? If you happen to be that 30,000-50,000 mile per year driver, i.e, courier or post person AND you moonlight as a NYC pizza delivery driver towing a heating oven, yah might fall into the severe category.
According to manuals that I read, the majority of drivers falls in either in severe category or somewhere in-between.
Driving in city, or in hot places, or in cold ones, or in mountains, or even in hilly terrains is not considered normal.
Normal is 95% highway driving somewhere in KS...
I have an oil monitor on my car; with my driving pattern it asks for oil change after 6,000 miles. According to the manual, normal is 7,500 miles, and severe is 3,000 miles. I live in Hamden, CT - a suburb of New Haven. New Haven is a small city, but there is still a lot of stop signs and traffic lights here. No mountains, but the terrains are hilly.
My previous cars did not had the oil monitors. I used to change oil every 5,000 miles to be safe.
..."I have an oil monitor on my car; with my driving pattern it asks for oil change after 6,000 miles. According to the manual, normal is 7,500 miles, and severe is 3,000 miles. I live in Hamden, CT - a suburb of New Haven. New Haven is a small city, but there is still a lot of stop signs and traffic lights here. No mountains, but the terrains are hilly. "...
According to your own definitions, you are NOT in the severe category.
Upshot, the most objective is an oil analysis, which costs anywhere from 20-40. I know and will point out is probably 99.9% of drivers do NOT do oil analysis let alone know what it is or know what to do with them.
But that as it may, it might be arcane to uncommonly known that some engines (in different segments) are harder on oil than others. While I didn't buy the 2004 Honda Civic because it was easy on oil (per se), it is easy on oil. This is some what confusing in that for example the 10,000 mile recommendation is on conventional oil. Conventional oil has a TBN of 7 so miles per TBN with a safety of say 1/2 TBN = app 1700-2000 miles per.
Synthetic oil, such as Mobil One 5w20 has a TBN of 12. Using the same short hand, the figures now extend out to 17,000 to 20,000 miles.
2nd upshot: the most objective is an oil analysis, which costs anywhere from 20-40.
So for example, I have one that the oem specifies Mobil One 5w30 synthetic oil and up to 15,000 and or 1 year. It also has an OLM. The way I drive it, the olm recommends app 14,500-14,800 miles. To be safe I change it between 14,500 to 14,800 miles.
I have another that recommends 10,000 miles, but supporting oil analysis done by a wide range of folks who have the similar car using similar oil(Mobil One T & SUV 5w40 aka Delvac One 5w40) run it between 15,000 and 25,000 miles. The good news, With the advent of ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) FROM LSD (low sulfur diesel), indications are it is good to go to 30,000 miles. I only have 84,000 miles on this one, so I will let you know at 500,000 to 1 M miles how it has gone.
Interesting you had no response to the other 6/7ths or 86% of the post. The 2 nexus' being your OLM is calibrated for conventional oil and this IS a synthetic thread.
...the majority of drivers falls in either in severe category or somewhere in-between.
I am no expert, but...
Now that is just silly. "Normal" would be the way most people drive. Dealers like to claim that everyone is in severe category to sell more oil changes...which is odd since they often have coupon specials that seem to price the oil changes as a loss leader :confuse: .
Contrary to this, some manufacturers seem to be more aggressive in claiming extended non-synthetic OCIs, like 7,500 mi. I have had Ford's recently and their normal OCI is 5000 mi or 6 months. From what I have absorbed from various sources, this is probably a reasonable OCI with conventional oil for almost everyone.
With synthetic, I feel safe in following our VW's recomendation of 10,000 mi or 12 months.
I had nothing to add, or to argue with, the other 86% of your post.
And yes, the monitor does not distinguish between even the best synthetic oil and the cheapest non-name one, as long as it meets the minimal design specs...
Yes, everybody expects that what is typical is normal. What is defined in manuals as "normal" ought to be named "near ideal".
Now about 7,500 miles OCI: we have two almost identical cars in our family, a 2000 Buick Regal GS, and 2004 one. "Normal" (i.e. ideal) OCIs are, respectively, 7,500 and 10,000 miles or one year. Or may be even 12,000 miles for the 2004 Regal - I do not remember exactly. And yes, according to oil monitors, the 2004 Regal can ran for longer distances between oil changes in similar driving conditions. My wife drives more smooth, though.
Now, I do not think the OSIs are aggressive. The classic 3,800 engine is bullet-proof, and it runs mostly at 1,800-2,200 rpm. Few seconds of 3,000-3,600 rpm when entering on highways or in similar cases. Supercharger almost does not matter.
We are using Mobil 1 nevertheless - just because it is a better oil.
The GM description includes if many trips are under a certain mileage, I'm guessing from memory, of 8 miles approx. In reality what they're wanting is that each trip is long enough for the motor to get to lean operation at full temp and the oil in the pan gets heated up from the length of the drive to evaporate contaminants that end up in the oil from cold starts. The colder the ambient temp the longer getting the oil pan heated to help the purge process is going to take. In winter I shorten my change interal by recalling the number of cold, short drives the car has had.
One additional criterion from my Ford book, which was not listed online (where I got the other list) is frequent short trips (<10 mi) when outside temps remain below 0 deg F.
Our VW is more vague...just says extremely low temps, dust, "etc."
When switching from dino oil to synthetic, will the oil life monitor adjust itself & have a longer interval until it hits 15%? Just curious if it knows that better oil with a longer change interval is being used?
Nope it has no idea what oil you have in the car. It just uses an algorithm that takes in lots of environmental and driving type data to GUESS at the life of the oil.
But, in your opinion, would it stretch out the intervals when all is factored in? I've always used dino oil, but am intriged about synthetic. I know it costs a bit more, but with the longer change intervals and the better engine protection, it seems to be worth it. In my case, I only drive about 9k miles in a year with 90% stop & go driving. So I really have no idea if my Civic would run any better with synthetic in the engine.
Nope the oil monitor will just keep following its factory programing which is most likely based off Petro oil and not synthetic.
Your civic is designed to use 5w20 which by its very nature is a highly refined petro oil. Switching to 5W20 Mobil 1 or Amsoil and then just changing the oil once a year by time would be a good idea.
If you are doing such low mileage then just changing the oil about once a year should be fine.
Even though I do use 0w20, 5w20 Mobil One with 20,000 mile OCI's, if you 1. do not care about the savings in fuel mileage 2. do not want to exceed 10,000 miles OCI's, I personally would stay with almost ANY of the recommended 5w20's (that meets the Honda specification) The 5w20 conventional oil meeting these standards is VERY VERY VERY robust. (Did I mention it is a very robust oil? From a cost per mile lubricated point of view, it sets a very high bar. Sure some are better than others and sure you will probably have your own preferences. Also availablity in your area will most likely be a fairly important factor.
Some of the reasons I use Mobil One 0w20,5w20
1. fuel savings due to synthetic vs conventional oil actually make it cheaper (per mile lubricated) to use the more expensive (up front) synthetic oil
2. As cited, I do use the longer OCI
2b this saves time, resources, 2c. money for shop time/labor at dealer/vendor charges.
3. as robust as the 5w20 conventional oil is the Mobil One is even more so
Then I guess what y'all are saying is that I should just stick with dino oil and follow the oil monitor. Probaly the most inexpensive route to go...but I really want the best for this engine, as I will hopefully be keeping this car for awhile. Would like to get it up to when I retire in 2012.
My goal is 250,000 to 300,000 miles. However there is no doubt in my mind that you will have NO problems (in this case, with impediments, due to using 5w20 conventional oil with up to 10,000 mile OCI's).
The yearly commute use is app 16,000 per year, so that puts oil changing at every 1.25 years. I really like the way synthetic runs in this car. I have 10,000 miles on OEM 5w20 conventional fill as a comparison.
So I think you know what I am doing. All the best.
For you from a purely economical stand point it might be better to just follow the oil monitor which is going to do about 10,000 or a little less OCIs. That way you will change the oil about once a year.
If you drove more miles a year then using pure true synthetic and extendeing the OCI to 15,000 or more would make sense. Time effects oil quality too so you don't want to leave the oil in the engine for nearly two years just to get up to 15,000-18,000 miles on the OCI.
If you don't mind the little extra expense then running a pure synthetic and just changing it yearly while ignoring the oil change monitor is not a bad way to go either. It will cost you a little more for each oil change but will save you money in the long run with better fuel economy and a cleaner engine.
They used that on my '03 Sentra and it seemed fine. I've got a free 5k, 10k & 15k service from the dealer, so that's where I'll go to start. I wonder if they use a synthetic blend also? Will ask when I get the 5k service done. I used to swap oil & filter every 4k miles or so, but I think it's best that I follow the oil monitor & stick with my dino juice...5W20. Thanks for the great advice guys!!!
The Mobile 1 Extended Service synthetic oil doesn't meet the GM 4718 requirement. It shouldn't be used in GM cars that require the specification. Other grades of Mobile oil do meet the GM 4718 spec. I'll have to check some Mobile bottles at the local Mobile gas station.
My new Kia is driven daily for about 5 miles.The rest of the mileage probably 80% or so,would be highway.Objectively,would you call that normal or heavy duty.No trailer towing or such.Of course I could just stick with my tried and true 3000 miles or 3 months,but in the winter I probably wont put on more than 200 miles per month,so it seems excessive to change the oil after only 600 miles.My idea is to use Synthetic(Mobil 1)and change it twice a year.
If it were my Kia, I would still use the Mobil One (0w20,5w20 or whatever your oem owners manual recommends). One of those(among many) reasons is that at lower temperature, synthetic oil actually lubricates FASTER, all things being equal. I would only change it once a year, even given your miles. But realistically, conventional oil would do just fine.
As you probably are aware, a daily drive of 5 miles R/T. indeed meets the definition of "severe". Incomplete, unburnt, and lower temperature conbustion by-products are not given the operating time, mileage and temperature to burn off more completely (one (to 2) hour/s at full operating temp (freeway miles) is optimium). Thus the oils additives are called on to neutralize a greater %, thus lowering additive life. So in the case of the Honda Civic (again the nexus is what the oem owners manual recommends) severe is 5,000 miles OCI.
Are you saying that considering my "severe"driving conditions,changing my synthetic oil at 6 months,would blow my warranty?The mileage would probably less than 6K.Out of that 6000,probably 5,500 would be highway.I realize that using conventional oil at the 3000-3month interval would cover me,but the synthetic is better for the engine,isn't it? I found nothing about synthetic oil in my owners manual.
No, not at all. You can surely change the oil at 6 mo. Again I would personally use synthetic. MOST Japanese oems do NOT specific (at this time) synthetic oil.
I see that some of you would like better drain intervals and to get longer miles out of their car. I run Amsoil in my car and I change it every 25,000 miles like Amsoil says. We run Amsoil in our company Vehicles and we get better gas mileage and save money with the longer drain intervals don't need to change the oil as often which saves money. Amsoil works great for myself and our company.
This is especially true in a commercial application. Each time the oil is changed the labor is a min of usually 15-20 dollars. Folks that DIY tend to discount this in the calculations.
The real way to drive this cost home to DIYer's is ask how would folks would feel if their employer asked them to change the company vehicles' oil on their lunch hour. I am thinking that in the majority of cases, this would not be well received.
So to me, the math on longer oci's has always been very compelling. This alone makes the upfront more expensive oil, eg. Amsoil)look down right CHEAP.
There's a rousing endorsement. The implication of your post is that since Amsoil works for you and your company, it is the best oil out there and all others are worthless. :P
Rhetoric like the stuff you post is one of the primary reasons why many folks, myself included, won't use Amsoil, even if it became the last fully synthetic oil on Earth.
Hi Shipo, There are lots of Amsoil sellers who will tell you that it is the best product on the market. It is sold in a very peculiar way as well. In my case, the autrageous claims about 25k to 35K miles OCI's it made me distrust the product but I purchased it anyway with the intention to do an oil analysis to disprove its so called qualities. After half a dozen oil analysis I must say it has worked very well for me, not better but equal to Mobil 1.
Do the Honda dealers sell Mobil 1 or similar synthetic oil? Dumb question I know, but I'm sure at least 25% of Honda buyers prefer synthetics over dino. My biggest concern is that with my oil life monitor being calibrated to dino oil, how would the computer know that the new synthetic has been swapped with the dino, & would the computer now calculate the % of oil life left accordingly? Seems crazy to use synthetic when the monitor calculating the oil life based on dino when they've been swapped out. Am I making this clear??? How good is this Amsoil as compared to Mobil 1?
Because the OLM is calibrated with no ability to vary, the calculator calculates accordingly. But this is not as problematic as it might seem. So for example using the Honda as an example, the 5w20 conventional is a 7 TBN. Mobil One has a 12 TBN. So given a normal oci of 10,000 miles - 1 safety factor, that is 10,000 miles/6 = 1,667 miles per TBN x 11 TBN or 18,337 miles..
So in plain English that means...? Not making fun really, I just don't get your math. So what you're saying is that the OLM will just extend the % oil life and I'd be fine. My calculations, & that of a friend at work who got his LX 3 weeks before me, show that I'll be at about 7300 when the monitor's at 15%, my change %. When I do swap out the dino, then the %/miles ratio should slow down. Don't really want to manually alter the OLM if possible.
What meaning does the GM 4718 requirement have. I posted in an earlier post about that being met by some Mobile oils and not the extended life synthetic. Does Amsoil meet that requirement?
A comment about Amsoil sellers. The constant drumbeat reminds me of Zaino posts to the point that a group on Edmunds here bans Zaino posts in one topic. Store Bought Waxes Part II (No Zaino Posts)
I'm trying to decide if I want to use a synthetic in my newer car at least in warmer weather for extended oil change interval, so I'm reading this with open ears to learn.
I have put Kendall GT synthetic oil 10W-30 to my 01 Taurus with 49,000 miles on it which requires 5W-20. Is it Ok or will it be too thick for the smooth running of the engine? What is the quality of this synthetic motor oil?
For example, 10,000 mile OCI with CONVENTIONAL oil will convert to 18,377 miles using synthetic. The olm, since you can not adjust it (for synthetic)(in other words the algorithms are based on an assumed TBN of 7, (other factors too) will still calculate for 10,000 miles (for example). SOOOOOOO for synthetic you would go to 18,377 miles to compensate.
So for ANOTHER example, for me 18,377 is too weird a practical number to remember, even as it is such a weird number; you will probably remember it. So in my case, a conventional oil change for the Honda would be at 10,000 miles. Since I use SYNTHETIC (Mobil One 0w20,5w20), I just do a 20,000 mile OCI. This coincidently coincides with the oem recommendation of (oil) FILTER change at 20,000 miles. Again, since I hear you to say you follow the olm, adjust proportionately.
So I could go for the 20k change period, but the wrench icon would still come on at 10k & I'd just have the icon on until I do the change at 20k. But would having the icon on that long hurt anything?
Shipo, you must realize that AMS Oil has to do what it can to combat the perception that Mobil 1 is the "undisputed king of the hill." Obviously Exxon Mobil had poured millions of dollars into their advertising to persuade consumers that their products are the best in order to turn those consumers into "converts," which is how you must have been convinced to use their products in the first place or are you an employee/stockholder of the company? Look who is advertising at the top of this page!! Their marketing stategy apparently has worked just fine! You are helping that company maintain its enviable status as the nation's most profitable company in the history of our great nation.
I "had been" a faithful user of Mobil 1 for a number of years in several different vehicles. Prior to Mobil 1, I had used Castrol Syntec for a number of years as well. I must admit that I had fallen for the advertising of Castrol and Mobil that consequently led me to become a faithful follower of both products, just as you currently seem to be with the massive oil giant. Prior to the Syntec usage, I was a loyal user of Castrol dino juice, especially after an experimentation I conducted back in the early 1980's where I found that Castrol 10W40 allowed me to wind 1st gear at a higher RPM that kept the engine much more silent than its competition at the time (Valvoline and Pennzoil). Also a certain consumer magazine (that does not like its name mentioned in any publication) did a lab comparison test of most of the major oils back in the mid 1980's, where the Castrol 10W40 came out on top in its particular grade for maintaining its vicosity under the punishing test. The only synthetic that this magazine tested at the time was Mobil 1 in the 5W30 grade, which beat its competition in that particular grade, but then again all of its competition in the 5W30 grade was all dino juice, so no particular surprises, right?
I then stopped using Castrol Syntec when I discovered on one cold winter day that I was barely able to start my car. It cranked very slowly and almost did not start. When it did start, the engine exhibited all the symptoms of dino juice, where the engine runs very rough and no doubt it is during this cold start/warm up phase where some metal to metal contact is being made that leads to needless engine wear (where the thick as molasses oil cannot be easily pumped by the oil pump). Later, I read that Syntec is nothing more than super refined dino juice, which is probably why I found it hard to start on that cold winter day (whether the article was true or not, I'll never know). Dino juice, comes out of the ground containing some nasty stuff, such as wax, tar, asphalt, sulpher, water, etc and as hard as refineries try to get this nasty stuff eradicated from the oil, they are not entirely successful, which is why so many synthetic oil fans keep searching for the pure PAO formula, which is free from all these impurities.
After abandoning the Syntec, I then started using Mobil 1, since once again, I had fallen for their advertising. I had toyed with the idea of using AMS Oil over the years, but the price initially kept me from doing it until I took the plunge last March. I can tell you that the AMS Oil made a world of difference to me in real performance in comparison to the Mobil 1.
AMS Oil was the first oil company in the world to produce a sythetic oil that was approved by the American Petro Institute back in approximately 1972 and Mobil came out a few years later with Mobil 1. At that time, Mobil said you could use Mobil 1 for up to 25,000 miles.
Take it from me, Shipo, I have used both products and I can attest which one is better. "Seeing is Believing," or in this case "Using is Believing." I can only assume from your posting that you have not tried AMS Oil, so how can you make the statement that Mobil 1 is the king of the hill, if you have never tried AMS Oil for yourself? An analogy would be if you only consummed white wine and never tried red wine, how would you be able to state that the white wine was the best wine in the world? An ancient Chinese master once remarked to a student that in order to try the master's brand of tea, the student had to first "empty" his cup. Your cup, Shipo, appears to be overflowing with Mobil 1, so there appears to be no room for AMS Oil anyway.
Since you like third party tests, Shipo, how about the third party tests that show Mobil 1 producing more scarring to the metal on the four bearing tests than AMS Oil? That in essence means that AMS Oil does a better job in protecting the metal of the engine and isn't that the "MAIN OBJECTIVE" why we are searching for the best oil???
Why would you want to use a 0W40 Oil anyway, if you are not operating a newer European vehicle that was designed for that weight of oil? What do your owner's manuals say about the preferred weight of the oil?
In closing, I would like for you to answer of question from me whether you are either an employee of Exxon Mobil or a stock holder. I admit that I am a former stock holder of XOM (Exxon Mobil). I swear that I own no stock in AMS Oil and I am neither a dealer nor a direct jobber for that company. I am only a preferred customer of AMS Oil (where I have to pay a annual $20.00 fee), that allows me to purchase their projects at a discount. I am interested, however, in becoming a dealer of theirs, since I believe that much in the company after "personally testing" its products against the competition.
Another so called expert on oil and Amsoil troll. Geez, you don't even know what a UOA is (much less have comparative UOAs to use to support your assertions) and yet you would have the rest of us believe that you are some kind of an expert. Sorry, not buying.
Regarding one of Amsoil’s most ridiculous "Proofs", the four-ball test (which you incorrectly identified as a "four-bearing test"), the shearing forces of this particular test are found nowhere in a modern IC engine, and as such are totally irrelevant. Shouting about it to the Moon won't change the fact that the test is still irrelevant.
After you've gone out and gotten yourself educated so that you can question validity of the Amsoil bilge water you're parroting around here, and after you've followed that up with collecting some good comparative scientific tests (UOAs will suffice) to prove your arguments, I welcome you to come back here so that we can have a good quality conversation of the subject. In the meantime, I'm putting you on "Permanent answering machine punishment."
Comments
I've seen lots of noise about Mobil using Group III base oil for their Mobil 1 EP product line, however, I've never seen any evidence that the Mobil 1 (non-EP) product line is manufactured with anything other than a full PAO base. Do you have any references to any science suggesting that any of the Mobil 1 (non-EP) oils are anything other than a Group IV base oil?
FWIW, per the MSDS for the Mobil 1 EP 5W-30, even EOM admits that they are using a Group III for that oil by saying, "Contains: Base oil severely refined...". With that in mind, I personally have no doubt at least some of the Mobil 1 EP oils are built with a Group III base.
"I saw specs published on the net that indicated that as of March of 2003, Mobil 1 only used a TBN of 5.0 in their grade of 5 W 30..."
I just checked dozens of Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 EP VOAs going back to 2002, and the lowest TBN of any of them was from an old Mobil 1 0W-20 VOA, and that was still 9.5. The lowest Mobil 1 5W-30 (non-EP) that I found was 10.7 and the lowest Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 that I found was 10.6. Said another way, I think your data suggesting a 5.0 TBN for a 5W-30 Mobil 1 oil is highly suspect. Could you possibly have been looking at a UOA or a VOA from one of the conventional oils sold by EOM?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Don't know for sure but there are plenty of potential reasons:
1) Over the years they've consistently stated that Synthetic Oil = PAO, and they are still maintaining that assertion.
2) With #1 in mind, reading the MSDSs for every non-EP Mobil 1 product line, EOM claims "Contains: Synthetic base oils..." Hmmm, sounds like a synthetic to me.
3) With #1 in mind, reading the MSDSs for the Mobil 1 EP product line, one will encounter such language as, ">"Contains: Base oil severely refined..." as well as "...Synthetic base oils..." for at least one of the three. Ohhh, this sounds like a Synthetic Blend to me.
4) EOM isn't the only maker of engine oil these days that is holding their formulation cards close to the vest (so to speak). In these days of Gas Chromatograph testing, it is very difficult to keep proprietary formulations secret.
Points one through three say to me that they (EOM) are being as forthcoming as they need to be or even should be. Why "should be"? Well, it's possible that I have a slightly different perspective maybe on this issue compared to most folks. As a U.S. Patent holder, intellectual property is very important to me, and that leads me to point #4. Why give your competition any indication whatsoever about what you are doing? I say to the management at EOM, "Folks, be as cagey as possible."
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
So for example, the 2004 Honda Civic oem's recommendation is a 5w20 (conventional oil) meeting HONDA specifications. The OCI recommendation is 10,000 miles and for those with the OLM, at a specific % left.
The manual (for example) also says pretty plainly the MAJORITY of drivers do fall into the NORMAL cycle. Translation? If you happen to be that 30,000-50,000 mile per year driver, i.e, courier or post person AND you moonlight as a NYC pizza delivery driver towing a heating oven, yah might fall into the severe category.
Driving in city, or in hot places, or in cold ones, or in mountains, or even in hilly terrains is not considered normal.
Normal is 95% highway driving somewhere in KS...
I have an oil monitor on my car; with my driving pattern it asks for oil change after 6,000 miles. According to the manual, normal is 7,500 miles, and severe is 3,000 miles. I live in Hamden, CT - a suburb of New Haven. New Haven is a small city, but there is still a lot of stop signs and traffic lights here. No mountains, but the terrains are hilly.
My previous cars did not had the oil monitors. I used to change oil every 5,000 miles to be safe.
According to your own definitions, you are NOT in the severe category.
Upshot, the most objective is an oil analysis, which costs anywhere from 20-40. I know and will point out is probably 99.9% of drivers do NOT do oil analysis let alone know what it is or know what to do with them.
But that as it may, it might be arcane to uncommonly known that some engines (in different segments) are harder on oil than others. While I didn't buy the 2004 Honda Civic because it was easy on oil (per se), it is easy on oil. This is some what confusing in that for example the 10,000 mile recommendation is on conventional oil. Conventional oil has a TBN of 7 so miles per TBN with a safety of say 1/2 TBN = app 1700-2000 miles per.
Synthetic oil, such as Mobil One 5w20 has a TBN of 12. Using the same short hand, the figures now extend out to 17,000 to 20,000 miles.
2nd upshot: the most objective is an oil analysis, which costs anywhere from 20-40.
So for example, I have one that the oem specifies Mobil One 5w30 synthetic oil and up to 15,000 and or 1 year. It also has an OLM. The way I drive it, the olm recommends app 14,500-14,800 miles. To be safe I change it between 14,500 to 14,800 miles.
I have another that recommends 10,000 miles, but supporting oil analysis done by a wide range of folks who have the similar car using similar oil(Mobil One T & SUV 5w40 aka Delvac One 5w40) run it between 15,000 and 25,000 miles. The good news, With the advent of ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) FROM LSD (low sulfur diesel), indications are it is good to go to 30,000 miles.
Yes, but not in the normal one either. Somewhere in-between.
I am no expert, but...
Now that is just silly. "Normal" would be the way most people drive. Dealers like to claim that everyone is in severe category to sell more oil changes...which is odd since they often have coupon specials that seem to price the oil changes as a loss leader :confuse: .
Contrary to this, some manufacturers seem to be more aggressive in claiming extended non-synthetic OCIs, like 7,500 mi. I have had Ford's recently and their normal OCI is 5000 mi or 6 months. From what I have absorbed from various sources, this is probably a reasonable OCI with conventional oil for almost everyone.
With synthetic, I feel safe in following our VW's recomendation of 10,000 mi or 12 months.
And yes, the monitor does not distinguish between even the best synthetic oil and the cheapest non-name one, as long as it meets the minimal design specs...
Now about 7,500 miles OCI: we have two almost identical cars in our family, a 2000 Buick Regal GS, and 2004 one. "Normal" (i.e. ideal) OCIs are, respectively, 7,500 and 10,000 miles or one year. Or may be even 12,000 miles for the 2004 Regal - I do not remember exactly. And yes, according to oil monitors, the 2004 Regal can ran for longer distances between oil changes in similar driving conditions. My wife drives more smooth, though.
Now, I do not think the OSIs are aggressive. The classic 3,800 engine is bullet-proof, and it runs mostly at 1,800-2,200 rpm. Few seconds of 3,000-3,600 rpm when entering on highways or in similar cases. Supercharger almost does not matter.
We are using Mobil 1 nevertheless - just because it is a better oil.
Ford say "normal", if you only occasionally operate your vehicle under the following conditions:
Towing a trailer or using a camper or car-top carrier
Extensive idling and/or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use such as delivery, taxi, patrol car, or livery
Operating in dusty conditions such as upaved or dusty roads
Off-road operation
Most will clearly be in the "normal" category, based on this.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Our VW is more vague...just says extremely low temps, dust, "etc."
The Sandman
The Sandman
Your civic is designed to use 5w20 which by its very nature is a highly refined petro oil. Switching to 5W20 Mobil 1 or Amsoil and then just changing the oil once a year by time would be a good idea.
If you are doing such low mileage then just changing the oil about once a year should be fine.
Some of the reasons I use Mobil One 0w20,5w20
1. fuel savings due to synthetic vs conventional oil actually make it cheaper (per mile lubricated) to use the more expensive (up front) synthetic oil
2. As cited, I do use the longer OCI
2b this saves time, resources,
2c. money for shop time/labor at dealer/vendor charges.
3. as robust as the 5w20 conventional oil is the Mobil One is even more so
The Sandman
The yearly commute use is app 16,000 per year, so that puts oil changing at every 1.25 years. I really like the way synthetic runs in this car. I have 10,000 miles on OEM 5w20 conventional fill as a comparison.
So I think you know what I am doing.
If you drove more miles a year then using pure true synthetic and extendeing the OCI to 15,000 or more would make sense. Time effects oil quality too so you don't want to leave the oil in the engine for nearly two years just to get up to 15,000-18,000 miles on the OCI.
If you don't mind the little extra expense then running a pure synthetic and just changing it yearly while ignoring the oil change monitor is not a bad way to go either. It will cost you a little more for each oil change but will save you money in the long run with better fuel economy and a cleaner engine.
I used to swap oil & filter every 4k miles or so, but I think it's best that I follow the oil monitor & stick with my dino juice...5W20. Thanks for the great advice guys!!!
The Sandman
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As you probably are aware, a daily drive of 5 miles R/T. indeed meets the definition of "severe". Incomplete, unburnt, and lower temperature conbustion by-products are not given the operating time, mileage and temperature to burn off more completely (one (to 2) hour/s at full operating temp (freeway miles) is optimium). Thus the oils additives are called on to neutralize a greater %, thus lowering additive life. So in the case of the Honda Civic (again the nexus is what the oem owners manual recommends) severe is 5,000 miles OCI.
I found nothing about synthetic oil in my owners manual.
The real way to drive this cost home to DIYer's is ask how would folks would feel if their employer asked them to change the company vehicles' oil on their lunch hour. I am thinking that in the majority of cases, this would not be well received.
So to me, the math on longer oci's has always been very compelling. This alone makes the upfront more expensive oil, eg. Amsoil)look down right CHEAP.
There's a rousing endorsement. The implication of your post is that since Amsoil works for you and your company, it is the best oil out there and all others are worthless. :P
Rhetoric like the stuff you post is one of the primary reasons why many folks, myself included, won't use Amsoil, even if it became the last fully synthetic oil on Earth.
Best Regards,
Shipo
There are lots of Amsoil sellers who will tell you that it is the best product on the market. It is sold in a very peculiar way as well.
In my case, the autrageous claims about 25k to 35K miles OCI's it made me distrust the product but I purchased it anyway with the intention to do an oil analysis to disprove its so called qualities.
After half a dozen oil analysis I must say it has worked very well for me, not better but equal to Mobil 1.
Am I making this clear???
How good is this Amsoil as compared to Mobil 1?
The Sandman :confuse:
The Sandman :confuse:
A comment about Amsoil sellers. The constant drumbeat reminds me of Zaino posts to the point that a group on Edmunds here bans Zaino posts in one topic.
Store Bought Waxes Part II (No Zaino Posts)
I'm trying to decide if I want to use a synthetic in my newer car at least in warmer weather for extended oil change interval, so I'm reading this with open ears to learn.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
For example, 10,000 mile OCI with CONVENTIONAL oil will convert to 18,377 miles using synthetic. The olm, since you can not adjust it (for synthetic)(in other words the algorithms are based on an assumed TBN of 7, (other factors too) will still calculate for 10,000 miles (for example). SOOOOOOO for synthetic you would go to 18,377 miles to compensate.
So for ANOTHER example, for me 18,377 is too weird a practical number to remember, even as it is such a weird number; you will probably remember it.
The Sandman :confuse:
I "had been" a faithful user of Mobil 1 for a number of years in several different vehicles. Prior to Mobil 1, I had used Castrol Syntec for a number of years as well. I must admit that I had fallen for the advertising of Castrol and Mobil that consequently led me to become a faithful follower of both products, just as you currently seem to be with the massive oil giant. Prior to the Syntec usage, I was a loyal user of Castrol dino juice, especially after an experimentation I conducted back in the early 1980's where I found that Castrol 10W40 allowed me to wind 1st gear at a higher RPM that kept the engine much more silent than its competition at the time (Valvoline and Pennzoil). Also a certain consumer magazine (that does not like its name mentioned in any publication) did a lab comparison test of most of the major oils back in the mid 1980's, where the Castrol 10W40 came out on top in its particular grade for maintaining its vicosity under the punishing test. The only synthetic that this magazine tested at the time was Mobil 1 in the 5W30 grade, which beat its competition in that particular grade, but then again all of its competition in the 5W30 grade was all dino juice, so no particular surprises, right?
I then stopped using Castrol Syntec when I discovered on one cold winter day that I was barely able to start my car. It cranked very slowly and almost did not start. When it did start, the engine exhibited all the symptoms of dino juice, where the engine runs very rough and no doubt it is during this cold start/warm up phase where some metal to metal contact is being made that leads to needless engine wear (where the thick as molasses oil cannot be easily pumped by the oil pump). Later, I read that Syntec is nothing more than super refined dino juice, which is probably why I found it hard to start on that cold winter day (whether the article was true or not, I'll never know). Dino juice, comes out of the ground containing some nasty stuff, such as wax, tar, asphalt, sulpher, water, etc and as hard as refineries try to get this nasty stuff eradicated from the oil, they are not entirely successful, which is why so many synthetic oil fans keep searching for the pure PAO formula, which is free from all these impurities.
After abandoning the Syntec, I then started using Mobil 1, since once again, I had fallen for their advertising. I had toyed with the idea of using AMS Oil over the years, but the price initially kept me from doing it until I took the plunge last March. I can tell you that the AMS Oil made a world of difference to me in real performance in comparison to the Mobil 1.
AMS Oil was the first oil company in the world to produce a sythetic oil that was approved by the American Petro Institute back in approximately 1972 and Mobil came out a few years later with Mobil 1. At that time, Mobil said you could use Mobil 1 for up to 25,000 miles.
Take it from me, Shipo, I have used both products and I can attest which one is better. "Seeing is Believing," or in this case "Using is Believing." I can only assume from your posting that you have not tried AMS Oil, so how can you make the statement that Mobil 1 is the king of the hill, if you have never tried AMS Oil for yourself? An analogy would be if you only consummed white wine and never tried red wine, how would you be able to state that the white wine was the best wine in the world? An ancient Chinese master once remarked to a student that in order to try the master's brand of tea, the student had to first "empty" his cup. Your cup, Shipo, appears to be overflowing with Mobil 1, so there appears to be no room for AMS Oil anyway.
Since you like third party tests, Shipo, how about the third party tests that show Mobil 1 producing more scarring to the metal on the four bearing tests than AMS Oil? That in essence means that AMS Oil does a better job in protecting the metal of the engine and isn't that the "MAIN OBJECTIVE" why we are searching for the best oil???
Why would you want to use a 0W40 Oil anyway, if you are not operating a newer European vehicle that was designed for that weight of oil? What do your owner's manuals say about the preferred weight of the oil?
In closing, I would like for you to answer of question from me whether you are either an employee of Exxon Mobil or a stock holder. I admit that I am a former stock holder of XOM (Exxon Mobil). I swear that I own no stock in AMS Oil and I am neither a dealer nor a direct jobber for that company. I am only a preferred customer of AMS Oil (where I have to pay a annual $20.00 fee), that allows me to purchase their projects at a discount. I am interested, however, in becoming a dealer of theirs, since I believe that much in the company after "personally testing" its products against the competition.
Another so called expert on oil and Amsoil troll. Geez, you don't even know what a UOA is (much less have comparative UOAs to use to support your assertions) and yet you would have the rest of us believe that you are some kind of an expert. Sorry, not buying.
Regarding one of Amsoil’s most ridiculous "Proofs", the four-ball test (which you incorrectly identified as a "four-bearing test"), the shearing forces of this particular test are found nowhere in a modern IC engine, and as such are totally irrelevant. Shouting about it to the Moon won't change the fact that the test is still irrelevant.
After you've gone out and gotten yourself educated so that you can question validity of the Amsoil bilge water you're parroting around here, and after you've followed that up with collecting some good comparative scientific tests (UOAs will suffice) to prove your arguments, I welcome you to come back here so that we can have a good quality conversation of the subject. In the meantime, I'm putting you on "Permanent answering machine punishment."
Best Regards,
Shipo