Synthetic motor oil

ruking1

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Also I have listed 4 that are NOT sludge prone. By unfortunate past experiences, 1.

So a bit off topic, synthetic (conventional also) oil lets me plan for the app 250,000 miles, I plan to keep this commuter. So given 3k OCI.s and 20k OCI's 3.3 qts per avg oil change and 3.4 quarts for synthetic the consumption is 277.2 qts/4=69.2 gals of conventional and 44.2 qts/4 qt=11.05 gal. It is also 84 OCI's vs 13 OCI's.

shipo

The upshot no oil; conventional and synthetic is "cook proof".

While that statement is true enough, just to make sure that nobody construes that statement as saying "all oils, conventional and synthetic alike, coke at the same temperature", it should be pointed out that a fully synthetic oil (i.e. Group IV PAO based oils) have a substantially higher coking temperature. Said temperatures are so much higher in synthetic oil that they easily exceed all normal and even abnormal temperatures encountered in even the hottest pressure cooker engines (i.e. blown motors).

Best Regards,
Shipo

elkein

Personally if someone ran a new car at say double the recomended oil change frequency, I'd probably deny them the warranty.
Nah you wouldn't need to because it won't hurt a thing :shades:
As others mentioned paticulars of the law say a warranty cannot be voided in it's entirety, just applicable parts, like that early valve noise would not be serviced etc.

ruking1

Outside of those makes and models prone to being "sludge a matics," it needs also to be said that whether one uses conventional or synthetic and/or blended and even mixed oil, using OCI's WAY BELOW, @, ABOVE OEM recommendations, that engine warranty claims are at the very worst: REMOTE.

ruking1

..."So a bit off topic, synthetic (conventional also) oil lets me plan for the app 250,000 miles, I plan to keep this commuter. So given 3k OCI.s and 20k OCI's 3.3 qts per avg oil change and 3.4 quarts for synthetic the consumption is 277.2 qts/4=69.2 gals of conventional and 44.2 qts/4 qt=11.05 gal. It is also 84 OCI's vs 13 OCI's. "...

So in the real world (how the miles and driving ACTUALLY work out) this is the "real world" benefit to me of 3k oci's vs 15,0000 to 25,000 mile OCI's;

20 oil changes vs 3 oil changes per year.

This is of huge utility to me.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, what I meant was that if a customer brought in a destroyed engine that had been serviced at doubled the recommended frequency for oil changes, that I would deny the warranty.

altair4

I read a rumor on a couple Passat forums that hinted that new formulations of M1, Castrol Synth, and Valvoline Synpower won't meet VW Spec 502.00.

Anyone hear this noise? I haven't been able to find anything on it, but the rumor is said to have started with both an Audi and Mercedes service advisors.

beancountant

If 10K is normal for Synthetic oil, what would you say to the same miles using petroleum based oil? And what if you added some thing like STP oil additive, will this help? Will this create varnish? Thank you. :confuse:

shipo

If 10K is normal for Synthetic oil...

Normal? No. What's normal? Beats the willies out of me. On some new engines 10,000 might well be all synthetic oil would be good for, on others, 15,000 to 20,000 (or more) is more normal. It all depends upon the engine and the driving environment.

...what would you say to the same miles using petroleum based oil?

Other than some of the new Hondas, I don't think there are any engines sold here in the U.S. that can safely go 10,000 miles on dino juice.

And what if you added some thing like STP oil additive, will this help? Will this create varnish?

Save your money, while snake oil might not harm your engine, it sure as hell won't help it.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

Ewww no, don't put any of that STP junk in your engine! Once you take apart an "STP engine" you'll know why...

shipo

"Once you take apart an "STP engine" you'll know why..."

Been there, smelled that, got the Tee-Shirt. ;-)

EWWWWW!

Best Regards,
Shipo

british_rover

Ughh you would be better off putting in 140 weight gear oil in the thing.

Ughh.

Mr_Shiftright

STP is an act of desperation, not regular maintenance.

However, I have used a mixture of STP and motor oil to pre-lubricate bearings when I installed them in a rebuilt engine. I just dip the bearing in the mixture quickly and get a thin coating of the gooey mess on there.

So STP has its uses.

espero

i would suggest that you stick with the manufacturer's oil/filter's as they desinged the car to use a certain oil/filter's and while the car is under warrenty you should as it can and will void the warrenty should the dealer have the oil checked and they will check in cases of total engine faileure. but you are all wannabe mechanics who know better than the car makers so who am i to argue. so go ahead use what you want and when your car goes bang and the dealer says P*** off dont come crying to me as i will say the same. :mad:

mladen

You got me worried my friend. I am getting ready for the first oil change on my 2004 passat V6 - well the first one I'm doing myself. I purchased Castrol Sintec 5-40 and Bosch 3321 filter. Are you saying that the Castrol Sintec falls short of VW spec. A number of forums lists this oil as compliant... How about the filter - wide design BOSCH?

shipo

It depends upon which Syntec, at least one meets 502.00 (the bare-bones minimum for late model VWs and Audis), and another meets the far more stringent 503.01 standard. Check the Castrol web site (or the Mobil 1 web site, as they have 502.00 & 503.01 Synthetic oils as well) for more details and to help you determine which oil to choose. Were I in your shoes I'd only select a 503.01 oil, and that limits your choices to either German (says "Made in Germany on the label) Castrol Syntec 0W-30 or Mobil 1 0W-40. Take your pick.

Best Regards,
Shipo

highroller

Im doing a UOA of GC 0w-30 soon... will post up results here.

shipo

Cool, looking forward to it. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

altair4

Don't sweat it...yet. As long as the bottle says it meets at least 502.00, you're okay. No, this rumor concerned upcoming releases or new formulations, not what is already on the shelf.

Can't directly comment on your choice of filter. There have been a number of posts across the web about using different filters on the Passat, mostly concerning the 1.8T engine and the desire to increase oil capacity.

You've got the V6 - it's less demanding in that regard.

div2

i would suggest that you stick with the manufacturer's oil/filter's(sic) as they desinged(sic) the car to use a certain oil/filter's(sic) and while the car is under warrenty(sic) you should as it can and will void the warrenty(sic) should the dealer have the oil checked and they will check in cases of total engine faileure(sic).

Well spoken. Now, where do you get OEM filters for your Daewoo?

rhiebert

Owner's Manual has recommendations ie. SAE 5W-20, 30 or whatever. The synthetic lube you use will not void warranty if showing this API SAE rating. Engine failure has to be traced to fault of the lubricant before dealer can talk voiding your warranty. Have look at Amsoil Product Options

tamu2002

I may be repeating myself but what do you experts think doing the 1st oil change at 1500 miles. I was told not to do that on my Honda Accord untill after 5K miles to make sure the metal particles are fully trapped by the filter. This doesn't really make sense to me, 'cause I'd think the opposite is true--you wanna remove the particles from the engine ASAP. Also, would it be better to use dyno or synthetic now with only 1500 miles? Thanks.

tamu2002

Hah, I finally found this information on Honda's owner website, in case anyone else here is interested. After much research on good break-in procedure and optimal oil to use and at what intervals, I'm left with just as much confusion if not more. There're way too many conflicting theories and practices that can't always be judged by the end results. Then again, maybe it doesn't matter.

***************************************************
Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?

Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.


American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions.

ruking1

To cut to the chase: NORMAL 10,000 mile OCI's with CONVENTIONAL OIL. 5w20 meeting the specs mentioned in your owners manual. UNLESS YOU ARE that NYC cab driver who drives 12 hours per day, who actually does moonlight as THAT NYC or chinese take out delivery driver in that same car!!!!

Sure I can understand the confusion. You have folks saying 3,000 miles (or DIE) 5,000 miles, extended OCI's, severe duty, time, over time, under time, environmental conditions, low, good, medium, high, quality oil. USE ANOTHER OIL DESPITE WHAT THE OWNERS MANUAL SEZ. Use supplements. Don't use supplements.... The list drones on and on.

tamu2002

Thanks. But I'm afraid it's impossible to cut to the chase here. It comes down to who you trust. I'm inclined to the manufacturor but who knows. For now I'll do what Honda says.

ruking1

I am a bit confused by your response. The 10,000 mile OCI IS a Honda recommendation, (2004 Civic)from both its web site and shop manual!!! So you didn't state what YOUR owners manual shop manual or the Honda Accord web information said!?

So yeah, who do you trust? As you can tell I am advocating what the OEM says to do. On the other hand, you didn't ask me what I actually do.

imidazol97

>specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from

In other words it does what other oils do. Nothing special explained there!

tamu2002

My manual only says to change the oil when the oil life monitor is down to 15%. Not very informative, is it. But you know what, since that's what Honda's website specifically tells owners to do, I'll give them the benifit of the doubt and do what they say.

tamu2002

We'll never know without Honda explaining it in technical terms. When I did check the oil though, it was filled JUST below the full mark, which is perfect, and the oil looked super clear and clean. That's not saying much though 'cause we know you can go by oil's appearance.

tamu2002

Oh yeah one more thing, my manual also specifically recommends changing the filter only when the oil is changed. What's the harm of changing the filter more often, especailly during long OCIs.

sandman46

My '06 Civic LX also says to wait till the oil life says 15%. I called the service department and they also told me this. I'll be waiting...and with a little over 2800 miles and at 60%, looks like it'll be around 7k miles before I need the 1st change.

The Sandman

ruking1

The counter intuitive truth is that it is more accurate than a lot of other indicators. In effect, the oil change interval is customized for how YOU specfically drive.

So given the new information, to cut to the chase: drive it to 15% remaining. Change the oil at that point, obviously. Let us know how many miles that happens to be. Again, since the OLM is (seems to be) calibrated for conventional oil, the usualy TBN is 7 vs say a Mobil One 0w20, 5w20, TBN being 12. So once you know a few of your mileage intervals, it will be very easy to adjust it, if you wish to switch to synthetic oil, for example. If you are at all picky, you can even do oil analysis; which would be a bit like consulting a second watch to see if time is being tracked correctly.

So for example, since I have an OLM on another vehicle that is actually callibrated for Mobil One 5w30 oil AND an oem recommendation NTE 15,000 miles;(1 tBN= 1365 miles) the olm indicates changing at app 14,500 miles. So the real TBN consumption is 1318 miles per tbn. So even if I do say so myself, the driving style is easier on the engine and therefore oil rather than harder.

"My '06 Civic LX also says to wait till the oil life says 15%. I called the service department and they also told me this. I'll be waiting...and with a little over 2800 miles and at 60%, looks like it'll be around 7k miles before I need the 1st change. "

So for example in Sandman's case, he is getting 1071 miles per tbn. so 15% of 7 =1- tbn =6 (consumed) x 1071= 6,500 miles , due.

tamu2002

Two conclusions I can draw from your comments:

1) My OLM is probably calibrated on conventional dyno oil, so if I switch to synthetic it wouldn't be accurate in its estimate.

2) Assuming your "1318 miles per base number" figure is somewhat universal for synthetic oil since it's calibrated on Mobil 1 5w30 synthetic (although my Honda calls for 5w20), I can probably safely run my oil for ~13K miles using Mobil 1 5w20 syn. That's based on 10 TBN consumed out of the 12 TBN to give it a cushion. The OLM on my Accord will probably come on at around 7k miles (based on its 7 TBN calibration), but I can ignore it. Incidentally, currently at 1600 miles my OLM is at 80%. That's about 1100 miles per base number with the factory filled oil.

Is that about right?

tamu2002

The Fram ToughGurad has overall good ratings, and I've been using it for the past, gosh 5 years or so without problems. But I will switch to better filters from now on like Mobil 1, K&N, or Amsoil since I'll be using extended OCIs with Mobil 1 synthetic like you.

tamu2002

BTW the Fram ExtendedGurad has poor rating despite its higher price than the ToughGurad. I'll probably stay away from that. Stick to the ToughGuard if you want to use Fram.

ruking1

YUP.

As it applies to oil filters just keep in mind that FRAM is the oem provider (to Honda's specifications) for Honda.

I personally would buy oil filters on price. Indeed the WalMart SuperTech is made by Champion Labs and costs ($2.07), less than even the FRAM.

Again this is true for the 2004 Honda Civic, the OEM recommendation is for EVERY OTHER oil change interval to change the oil FILTER. So in my case 20,000 miles.

tamu2002

Maybe the importance of the oil filter is overrated, especially in light of these manuafacturer recommendations. But I'll lean on the side of causion, better be safe than sorry.

ruking1

Well for sure. However I ask myself, does a higher end filter (such as, Mobil One filter) at 10 dollars, give me 5x better performance?

tamu2002

It only needs to be 2X or 3X better performance for me. It's cheap insurance for peace of mind during those 8K plus OCIs, or in your case 15K?

ruking1

Mine go anywhere from a low of 15,000 to 25,000 miles. On the 25,000 mile OCI, I use oem filters for the aftermarket is very limited and so called "other brands" actually cost more than the oems'.

bottgers

I don't know how much more if this price jacking I can take. It seems like every time I look at the price of syn, it's higher than the time before. The price just keeps going up, and the increase is disproportional to everything else. I realize the cost of the materials used to produce synthetic oil has has gone up, but I also think there's some profit padding going on here too. The price doesn't NEED to go up as much as it has. I guess the question is; at what price does it become too high? Many of the good syns are already over $6 a quart and still climbing. As much as I like syns, their worth isn't infinite, especially considering how good today's conventionals have gotten. My threshold is getting near. How 'bout your's?

ruking1

I think your post hits the (major) high points on the whole synthetic/conventional issue.

The answers can be very simple to very complex. So I would say put it in the context that is most correct for one's situation.

ruking1

So for example, given a 10,000 mile OCI recommendation for a 2004 Honda Civic with CONVENTIONAL oil (5w20), this raises the bar to almost impossible levels. This is one reason which partially explains why Honda is recognized as one of the economy leaders in its class.

So to get technical,
(which will probably drive away 75% of folks who would want to read this)

(that is a 3.2 qt (1 per qt) and (with filter 2.07 per) 3.4 qt+ .20 per crushable washer = 9.07/20,000=

.0004535 per mile lubricated.

(materials only, ADD app 18 dollars per oil change for shop and disposal costs)

As a comparison I got Mobil One 0w20 for app 4 per qt, so as you can see even a 20,000 mile OCI comes up more expensive 3.4 x 4= 13.60 + 2.07+ .20=$15.87/ 20,000=

.0007935 per mile lubricated

or 43% MORE. Indeed full parity is app 35,735 miles OCI.

So an interesting question, what % of folks would actually use a 10,000 mile OCI? Would they be more likely to use a 3,000, 5,000 mile OCI? Upshot is do the math with or without shop and disposal costs.

UPSHOT why I use synthetic at 20,000 mile OCI's

Research and my own SOTP experiences indicate using synthetic oil (0w20)gets from 1-3 mpg better fuel mileage over conventional oil . So over the course of 20,000 miles using 36-42 mpg I will use up to 37 gals (x 2.50 per gal=$92.50) LESS unleaded gasoline. So now, what is more expensive ?

$9.07 (+92.50) or $15.67 ?

Up front, a no brainer

TOTAL?

tamu2002

Hmm, I haven't given cost that much thought. You had a point there. The Honda original oil seems to be hold up exceptionally well (80% life left with 1600 miles). If I can get 8K an 6 months out of conventional oil, there's really no need to go synthetic. Honestly I don't even feel completely comfortable to go longer than that, Mobil 1 or not. On an old car yes, but not on my spanking new car :P I might try Mobil 7000 first and see how far it'll go.

ruking1

..."(80% life left with 1600 miles)"...

So we do not get too wacked out with adjustments, the OLM indicates 8,000 miles OCI's (with CONVENTIONAL oil), so you are not the NYC taxicab driver who moonlights as the pizza delivery person at nights.

So if your quote is the trend, the adjustment is fairly straight forward if you wish to convert to synthetic oil.

tamu2002

Like I said I'd be content with 2 oil changes per year. If that can be done with conventional oil, then all the better unless the mileage is better with synthetic which would be hard to confirm. Currently I'm getting 34.5 mpg for the last 2 tanks (out of 3 tanks total). I'm very pleased with that. I commute 22 miles each way everyday (less than 10K miles a year).

ruking1

If you are unwilling or unable to prove it to yourself, I can understand your reticence to switch.

I have been doing a lot of posting on this subject from memory, so I got curious and went back to my written mileage logs, first 10,000 mile interval. (conventional oil). So here are 6 snap shots for each 10k interval. (first three after the OCI and last 3 before the next OCI.

The first three tank fulls are not unlike yours at 35.6, 37.7, 34.9 mpg. Gassers are also well known to be broken in well before 5,000 miles. The last three before I changed the oil to Mobil One 0w20, 35.2, 35.9, 37.625, So the average of those 6 readings= 36.15.

So just after the second 10,000 OCI and just before the third, Mobil One 0w20), 38, 36, 38.99, 39.35, 36.4, 34.625, So the average of those 6 readings =37.29

So just after the third 10,000 OCI and just before the 20,000 mile marker, 39.14, 40.17, 37.25, 39, 40.34, 41.09. So the average of those 6 readings = 39.565

So because I am on a 20,000 mile OCI, here are the last 6 readings (current) 42.64, 36.33, 44.91, 37.1, 38, 40. So the average of those 6 readings= 39.83

So I wish you all the best in your new Honda no matter what you decide.

While a daily commute (among other things of course) does not come under what I would classify as fun, we are enjoying this Honda Civic under very many categories. We hope to run it a min of 250,000 miles with no more than changing wear able items: like, tires, rotors, drums, pads and shoes and the timing belt change at 105,000 miles (or so?) with a spark plug change at the same 105,000 mile interval.

ruking1

let me add a few thoughts.

So I said in past posts 1-3 mpg, the numbers under the above conditions, indicated 1.14 to 3.68 mpg. So over 20,000 miles that is 553 gal-502 gals=51 gal * 2.50 =127.50 per 20,000 miles. So if 3.68 mpg holds true over 250,000 miles, then we are talking 36.15, 39.83 mpg/250,000 miles or 6,916 - 6,277 gals respectively or 639 gals saved * 39.83 mpg = 25,451 miles of commuting.. At 2.50 per gal that is $1,597.50.

I am sure you don't need me to do the math on say 250,000 miles and the waste oil generated with 5,000 mile OCIs vs 20,000 mile oci's.

Mr_Shiftright

Aside from your own anecdotal evidence, have you ever seen any good scientific evidence of that much of a gas mileage increase? It seems excessive to me, and I have never experienced this much improvement in any car I've tried synthetic on. Maybe 1 mpg if I was lucky. One would think auto manufacturers would break down the hinges to the synthetic oil department to boost their fleet average 10%-15% by merely adding oil, and raise their CAFE standards, as well as take an edge on their competitors.

ruking1

I was just putting down the ACTUAL real world figures (given the methodology mentioned). I did 3 AVERAGEs of six readings each (18 total) readings. 1. They were the three fill ups after an 10,000 mile intervals so you could see "NEW oil" and 2. three last (on the 10,000 mile interval) before the next 10,000 mile OCI, so you could see "OLD OIL".

So if you think that is excessive in whatever (the) way/s, either range, difference, etc, etc. then really that is and has to be ok with me.

As you know, mpg is very low hanging fruit, given the WIDE range of possibilities and variables. So for example the sticker on the Honda Civic is EPA 29/38 it also says the majority of vehicles will achieve between 24/34 (city) 32/44 mpg (highway)

On another car, (VW Jetta) TDI it is EPA rated at 42/49, BUT the stated range on the sticker is between 35/49 city, 41/57 mpg highway. I have gotten as high as 62 mpg.

So for example what would you have me state when and if someone asks what can anyone expect for MPG?

The other interesting thing is the recommendation for the first car is 5w20 conventional and for the second 5w40 synthetic and BOTH for 10,000 miles OCI.

The other point is OEMS are EMBRACING synthetic oils AND the 0w20 to 5w20 viscosity. I understand the Honda Civic SI actually recommends synthetic. Again, Corvette, Porsche, BMW, MB, VW have been for a while, to mention a few.