Synthetic motor oil

highroller

I'd rather be concerned about the prices of gas over the costs of changing the oil. From what i hear, gas prices should be decreasing substantially before Thanksgiving!! Maybe to offset the rising costs of oil?

shipo

Regarding the Trabant comment, I had my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek when I wrote that bit, as there simply ain't no way I would consider owning a car made out of cardboard. ;-)

To answer your question, no, I do not believe that there is currently a synthetic 2-Stroke oil on the market, however, unless I'm completely mistaken, there are some synthetic oils that do meet the standards set forth for some of the old 2-Stroke diesel truck engines (not that anybody would use a synthetic in such an application).

Best Regards,
Shipo

done37

Actually Shipo I was Kiddin as well. Half hearted attempt at that! :P

Other than that, I agree with ya whole heartedly about synthetics.

Don

jason0820

I've got a new VW, which apparently is now factory fill synthetic engine oil, Euro 5W40 grade, for its entire line-up, factory (warranty) intervals of every 5K miles.
I'm coming close to that mark, but as I don't drive as much as I used to, it's been over 7 mos. on the same oil.
How important is the period of time in betwn oil (in months) changes in relation to mileage, esp. related to synthetic grade oils which I assume has a longer life than dino??

jeffyscott

Our VW manual says to change every 12 mo. if you have not reached the mileage interval yet.

curiousoilman

I've been doing too much research into this synthetic oil change stuff but have found that Mobil 1 has an oil and AMSOIL has oil and filter that will allow one to go for at least 25,000 miles between oil and filter changes. Helpful Links:

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/interval.html

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cave/oilapes.html

Is there somone out there with a summation of the past 6000 plus entries about this topic? What is the most cost effetive comination? Has the thought of how well the air filter does its job been included in this matter?

ruking1

I have no summation, but I have been running Mobil One 5w30 in a number of vehicles with 15,000 mile OCI's. I run one with 25,000 miles OCI's with Mobil One 5w40. I have run one vehicle app 250,000 miles on this regime. The one I run the 25,000 miles OCI's has 82,000 miles. Both have run and still run like the proverbial tops. The question of air filter operation is air filter operation DOES have an effect. By in large the best air filter to run is the stock OEM model.

jason0820

What make/model vehicles were used (any VWs or other European models?)
Also, when determining that OEM air filters were best, was that across the board for how many different vehicle makes??

ruking1

Of the European models, 2003 VW Jetta TDI.

For the oem air filters, while there are some very good oem "like" brands on the aftermarket, the best were still oem.

bottgers

...a way to cross reference to a larger capacity oil filter for a given vehicle? For example, if I wanted to go to a larger filter on my Corolla, is there a way to get one with the same spring pressure and anything else that may be specific to the filters made specifically for this vehicle?

bottgers

??????????

krzyss

just a guess ;-)

Krzys

sesjd

I think I'd like to change over to a synthetic's in my 2004 Harley motorcycle engin and transmission. Any thoughts? Suggestion has been to use Amesoil products.

div2

Any thoughts?

Amsoil is good, as is the Mobil 1 V Twin oil. I run Mobil 1 10W40 motorcycle oil in my Speed Triple.

amcanoe

I have been using Amsoil oil, oil filters & air filters in every vehicle I have owned since 1996. I change the oil at 25,000 miles or one year. Amsoil has a new oil filter that is rated for 25,000 miles or one year and an air filter, best air filter on the market, that can be used for 100,000 miles or four years. The air filter is cleaned by blowing it clean with air. I am still running my 1996 Ford E150 van w/351 engine and at present have 232,000 miles on it. Still running great and not using any oil. If I had been using petroleum oil and changing every 3000 miles I could have used that oil change money to buy another vehicle. Amsoil saves you money, mpg is better also.

bottgers

....post #6461?

shipo

I've never seen any credible evidence that suggests that the old "you cannot switch a high mileage vehicle to synthetic oil" adage is anything other than "hogwash".

That having been said, there is one major thing that you need to be aware of; many synthetic oils, (and apparently Mobil 1 in particular) add a much higher level of detergency into the oil, and this can lead to two main issues:
1) It will strip away any layers of varnish and/or sludge and/or grime from inside your engine, and as such, until your engine is cleaned out you should keep your OCI short (say 3,000 to 5,000) miles for the first couple of oil changes, and
2) once the cleaning process has progressed far enough you might find a few oil leaks where none existed before due to the crud that used to block a leakage area being washed away.

The flip side is of course the longer OCIs you can enjoy once you get everything stabilized. ;-)

Keep us posted on what you do.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

Mostly hogwash I'd say. Maybe if you poured synthetic, which has high detergency, into some old decrepit car 30 year old car with 200,000 miles on it, you might umplug some holes but not with a car with only 50K-70K that has had the benefit of modern lubricants all its life.

I've switched just about all my used cars to synthetic without any problems.

tamu2002

I'm currently using Mobil 1 full syn oil and Fram Tough Guard filter on our 05 Nissan Quest. I change the oil and filter together about every 7500 miles and 6 months. I know the regular Fram is junk but the Tough Guard seems to be pretty good. However now I realized that I might need a better filter to go with the long oil changes. I'm wondering if any one of you experts could recomend a superb filter that filters well and also has good flow rate. I want THE best filter on our van to achieve maximum protection. I can think of a few off hand K&N, Mobil 1. But which one is the best? Opinions please. Thanks.

wai

How about changing Castro-Synthec (5W-40) from the factory dino oil when the vehicle is only one year old with 700 miles.Is it bad to the engine in the long run? Mine is 04 Jetta VR6.

dudleyr

I like the Pur 1 oil filter the best.

shipo

I probably wouldn't bother to change oil that quickly as modern dino juice is easily good for 3,000 miles these days. That said, I've seen zero scientific evidence that suggests that an early change to a synthetic wannabe (like the U.S. Castrol Syntec) or even to a full synthetic will do any harm to the engine internals.

Best Regards,
Shipo

beancountant

Dear Shipo, I have an '03 Corolla bought used with 40K miles, it has sustantial amount of varnish. This can be seen when you open the oil filler cap and peek inside the crancase, on the cap itself and the oil dipstick. If Corollas normally reach 250,000 miles (assuming good maintenance & oil changes)
do you think I can still get 200k from this engine (assuming I change oil every 3K using Dino oil)? When I discovered this I flushed the engine with 50% trans fluid & 50% 5-30 oil and run
the engine for 20 mins. and used new oil, which came out as clean & clear as water. Appreciate your comments. Beancountant

shipo

First off, varnish inside of an engine in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean that the engine has any inherant problems. Let go too long and the varnish can build up to the point where it can cause problems (often called sludge), but I don't think 40,000 miles worth would amount to much if anything (errr, unless the oil had never been changed).

Regarding your engine flush, ummm, sorry to say this but running on 50-50 trans fluid may have been more detrimental to your engine than the varnish.

Will your engine still run a quarter of a million miles? Probably. That said, I personally feel that running conventional oil and using a 3,000 mile OCI is simply a waste of both money and resources. That engine will be just as happy (if not happier) running a good full synthetic and using a ~10,000 mile OCI. I've been using Mobil 1 0W-30 in the two Corollas that I maintain (my Mom and my Wife's Mom), and even though both cars do between 9,000 and 11,000 miles per change, they are as clean as can be on the inside. In fact, even after 11,000 miles the oil still wasn't fully dark when I pulled it out. Not too shabby.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

1) I'm thinking that your S-10 should do perfectly well on a good synthetic, especially because the amount of internal dirt and debris is probably fairly minimal (at least relatively speaking given the number of miles).

2) Regarding the Impala, I wouldn't bother with an initial short OCI on that one. I changed our 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan over to Mobil 1 somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000, did one 7,500 mile oil change, and then went to a 10,000 mile OCI. It now has nearly 125,000 on the clock, is perfectly clean inside, and is only using a quart of oil every ~8,000 miles.

3) Regarding which oil to use. I'm a bit of a fan of the European car specifications (i.e. BMW LL-01, VW 503.01 and the like), and as such I only use oils that are certified to meet those standards. Said another way, German Castrol 0W-30 or Mobil 1 0W-40 are the only two oils that I recommend (except for Chrysler's MDS Hemi which needs 0W-20 for the MDS to work correctly).

4) If one of your engines blows up using one of the two above oils, then "it blowed up" for some other reason than incorrect oil. :shades:

5) Regarding the 185,000 mile Chevy Van, yup, I'd probably stick with Dino Juice for that one too. Funny thing though, if my personal work situation remains as it currently is today, by the end of 2007 our 1998 DGC will have nearly that many miles on it as well, and I of course will still be using Mobil 1 0W-40. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

I understand that using synthetic with short changes the first times may be just as safe in re the possibility of loosening some particulates that might get into the wrong place.

My approach would be to use a fresh change of dino oil with Rislone in it and drive maybe 500 miles and then drain and replace with synethetic. That just gives me a better feel about getting any gunk in the oil pan bottom and resting on passage bottoms along with any shellacs redissolved slowly and out. I put Rislone into my cars two or three times a year and the oil is darker real fast--even though I follow oil changes intervals with dino oil about the way you do; the oil picks up more.

bottgers

I recently switched from Havoline dino to M1 EP to extend my drain intervals. I have noticed that the M1 has already turned a darker color at 4K miles than the Havoline got at change time which was 6K miles. Is this normal, and is it something I should expect from now on, or will the M1 stay cleaner longer the longer I use it?

Mr_Shiftright

Really if you do regular oil changes with synthetic your engine should be clean as a whistle. I've busted apart quite a few engine and have rarelyfound any "gunk" in the oil pan myself, except in grossly neglected engines that showed gunk everywhere.

I think flushing can be more trouble than it's worth IF...IF...you start out with a new car and do regular oil changes religiously. The color of the oil is really no indication of good or bad IMO--it's a deceptive way to judge the situation I mean.

On an older car that you suspect was neglected, a good flush (at proper proportions) might be helpful---but as Shipo says, using 50-50 with ATF is pretty dangerous.

I'd suggest just draining the oil, and adding 4 quarts or so of cheap oil, let it fast idle for 15 minutes, and drain that out. That was you are not using some non-lubricant to do the flush. ATF can't withstand engine temperatures very well--it would break down, surely.

bottgers

....for those of you who have a Corolla and use PureOne filters, the larger capacity filter to use in place of the PL14476 is the PL 14477. It's the same diameter, thread size, has the same spring pressure , etc, it just has a larger canister and filter element. I will be switching to this filter as I run extended OCI's and the 14476 is fairly small.

scorpiontrack

Can you change to Synthetic without draining the torque converter? I have a chevy 4 speed 2500 express cargo van.

Thanks

imidazol97

My suggestion for a cleaning cycle was for the S10 with 105K on it with fairly good OCI. I was thinking of varnish/gunk that might be around and picked up and moved out before the super-cleaning synthetic went it which might pick it up too much too fast.

Mr_Shiftright

That's possible. I sort of agree with Shipo though---I don't think varnish is, per se, a big deal or anything to worry about. Also, given how HARD it was for me to even SCRAPE this film off, I don't see an additive getting rid of it. I mean, sort of a chemical hot tank or a wire brush on a drill, it ain't coming off.

tamu2002

I found the following on Mobil 1's website. It seems to suggest their Extended Performance oil is better than the regular Mobil 1. Is this true? And which one is more suitable for newer cars with low miles (below 20K)?

"What is the difference between Mobil 1® Extended Performance and Mobil 1?

Mobil 1 Extended Performance formulas are designed specifically for today's longer service intervals and are guaranteed to protect for up to 15,000 miles or one year.

Mobil 1 Extended Performance has a unique formulation with a boosted level of protection and performance. Mobil 1 Extended Performance, with the Advanced SuperSyn System, contains 50 percent more SuperSyn than Mobil 1. (Updated March 2006) "

tamu2002

The "leaking" thing is a myth according to Mobil 1's website.

Mr_Shiftright

It probably originated from putting synthetic in old crates that hadn't had an oil change of any kind in years. As usual, what we needed was a session on "myth-busters".

I mean I used synthetic in British motorcycles--the virtual World Oil Leak Research Center---LOL!....and it made no difference in leakage...but the bikes starter up faster cold, that's proven in how less sore my leg was from stomping on the kick-start.

FUEL ECONOMY: You know I did state that adding synthetic to my new car had "no effect" on fuel economy over the last 1,000 miles, but I'll be DARNED if the fuel mileage isn't now creeping up for no explainable reason in the second 1,000 mile period. Stay tuned.

smokey75

You can but you won't get the full benefit of synthetic as so much of your old ATF will remain.

imidazol97

>The color of the oil is really no indication of good or bad IMO--it's a deceptive way to judge the situation I mean.

I was talking about the color of the oil after a few hundred miles with only a control change; only the Rislone was added. The oil was the same (Exxon); filter was the same (Purolator).

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, I understand. I don't think the color means anything except that Rislone makes oil look dirty. You could do that with vegetable dye, right? The bigger question is whether what has been put in suspension into the oil was of any harm to begin with.

imidazol97

Since the Rislone itself is a blue, I don't see how the mixture gives a darker color with particulate or suspension that drops out on a paper towel as the oil spreads through the fibers. Usually at the mileage I tested the plain oil has little darkened area in the middle of the spot on the paper towel.

british_rover

Better to do a traditional tranny filter change with convetional fluid and then do a tranny flush with full synthetic fluid.

Most quick lube shops should have a tranny fush machine. We charged 150 dollars for a full synthetic flush with Amsoil.

sandman46

Shipo, I think I will follow your advice and at the 20k point, I will probaly switch over to synthetic oil with a 7.5k change interval. I generally only drive about 9k miles per year so I could go about 10 months between changes. I would expect the synthetic change price to be about $60. give or take. The 1st 3 dino changes were given to me gratis from the Honda dealer (I probaly paid for them in there somewhere I suspect)...my oil life monitor still shows 70% life with 2600 miles on the odo. So, I'm probaly looking towards mid 2008 when I'd even be ready for synthetic.
A bit confused about the best reliable/$ place to use though. I've used mostly the local Tires Plus for my dino changes with their bulk oil. I'd have to find out what products they use for their synthetic changes. Maybe the Honda store would use better products though. For the non do-it yourselfers, what would you recommend?

The Sandman

shipo

The only tried and true method for the "non-do-it-yourselfer" (I like that), is to buy your own oil (Autozone generally has a very good selection and Walmart is usually fair) and then take it to your favorite place and watch them pour your oil into your engine.

The above said, if your Honda has a top accessible filter (either spin-on or canister), you might want to spend $60 or so for a Pela (or Mityvac) oil extractor. With my 530i it literally took longer to pour in the seven quarts of new oil than it did to suck out the old oil via the dip stick and then suck out the remaining oil in the filter canister. Total time for a DIY oil change is less than fifteen minutes.

Best Regards,
Shipo

sandman46

I think I'd probaly let him do it. It's in the same warehouse complex as my post office annex and I can hobble over there much easier. He's pretty knowledgeable and will probaly know the best oil & filter to use in my Civic. Luckily, I'm months away.

The Sandman

beancountant

Appreciate your response. I was contemplating on trading in the '03 Corolla (makes me wanna swear about not buying a used
car).Now that i've read your response I won't do that. Do you know how varnish is formed in the engine? Could it be heat (car was driven in Miami)or dirty oil?

One reason that prevents me from using Synthetic is that I've heard the filters only last 3-4K so there's no sense using a 10k oil when your filter only lasts 1/3 as much as the oil? I live in Michigan where we have 4 seasons. What's a good filter to go with the Synthetic oils? What do you suggest?

w9cw

Purolator PureONE filter.

beancountant

I hope I'm not too repetitive but, do you know how Varnish is formed and how to prevent it? Thank you for your response on
the PureONE oil filter!

shipo

I believe the term "hogwash" has been bandied about a bit here recently and "hogwash" is exactly the case when you hear/read that oil filters are only good for three to four thousand miles. I read a post from a GM engineer a year or so back that basically said, "Assuming an engine is properly maintained, all of the particulate trapped in all of your filters past the first one won't add up to the amount of particulate that is trapped by that first filter."

While I cannot say that that is necessarily true either, it does illustrate the point fairly well. My 328i and 530i both came from the factory with a 15,000 mile recommended OCI. Given that those cars have what is called a "Canister" style oil filter (as opposed to the more common spin on variety), you can easily see if there is any obvious metal filings or other particulate trapped in the filter element. Yup, you guessed it, other than being slightly darker than when they went in, the filters looked like they could easily have gone twice that mileage.

As for what causes varnish, well, that isn't such an easy answer. It's kind of a combination of heat, vaporization, condensation, dirt and high school chemistry and physics classes all rolled up into one nice little package. Essentially the heat of the engine vaporizes the oil (along with many of the contaminants held in suspension) which then kind of spray paints the surfaces of all internal engine parts that don't come into contact with other parts. That having been said, the longer your oil is in the engine the dirtier it gets (obviously) AND the lower its stability goes. I've seen some oil analysis results that show as much as a one hundred degree difference between the point where a new oil vaporizes and where that same oil vaporizes after use.

Said another way, the lower the stability and the dirtier your oil, the faster the varnish will build up. Disclaimer: the above is not a scientific description of what goes on and it's been too many years since I last boned up on the process for me to go into greater detail, however, it will give you the general idea.

The cool thing about Synthetic oils is that due to their natural stability, which as a result don't require as many stability improvers (if any at all), they don't vaporize as easily even after 10,000 miles as does new out of the can conventional oil. That plus the fact that since the base oil isn't all filled up with stability improvers, the manufacturers can add extra detergents instead. The result? A much cleaner engine.

Regarding Michigan, seasons and filters, Born there (Pontiac), lived it (I have, ummm, errr, fond memories of the '67 riots), got the Tee-Shirt (many of them). :P All seriousness aside, I love Michigan and would move back in a heartbeat if the proper opportunity arose. As for seasons, well, I currently live in southern New Hampshire and Michigan ain't got nuthin' on the weather around here (errr, except it seems to be rather cooler here in the summer). So, what are my favorite oil filters? In order of preference:
1) Mobil 1
2) NAPA Gold
3) Bosch
4) OEM filter

I hope this helps. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

british_rover

The cannister filter in my MINI didn't look so hot after 10,000 miles on Amsoil 5w40. It was kind of all squished in the middle and looked some what broken down overall.

I started doing a filter change at 5,000 to 7,500 miles at that point and a complete oil change at 15,000 miles.

shipo

Hmmm, any idea what year the failed filter was manufacturered? I also wonder if it uses the same filter element as other BMW cars. If so, I've heard from any number of sources that there was a batch of filters produced a few years back (I'm thinking somewhere between 2000 and 2002) that didn't prove up to the task of the full 15,000 miles.

Best Regards,
Shipo

british_rover

Doubt it as it was purchased in the summer of 2004 about a month after I bought the MINI. I had 1,500 or so miles on the car at the time when I changed to 5w40.