Synthetic motor oil

tamu2002

I'll use conventional oil for one year and switch to synthetic the next and see if there's a difference. Because gas mileage is sentitive to seasons, one probably needs to average over a whole year to get a true comparison. I'm not resisting synthetic at all. Actually I've been using it for years now. First on our 91 Geo Storm. then on our Nissan Quest. On the Quest I switched to Mobil 1 5w30 since ~7K miles and haven't noticed any change in mileage (now at 15K miles).

ruking1

I use synthetic for a number of reasons, but the prime one is doing an OCI longer than normally believed, resistance to sludge, etc, etc. After you run synthetic of late (in all my cars for example, sans the first oil change for the Honda Civic)) for a while, (805,000 miles- this is 269 oil and filter changes vs less than 54, tired already, thinking about that) the fact of the matter is the MPG due to synthetic vs convention becomes an absolute NON issue. The other non issues are 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 mile OCI's. But definitely to each their own.

yurakm

I also doubt that gas consumption improves just because the oil is synthetic. On the other hand, lower viscosity oil ought to help in this respect.

Mobil 1 definitely have lower viscosity until engine heats up, especially the 0W-xx that you are using, and especially in colder weather.

Many other factors influence gas consumption more than oil, though. Tires, for example - both model (stiffness) and inflation.

A lot of gas may be wasted by an overfilled transmission. A technician did it with my Buick Regal when flushing ATF. About 15,000K miles later I checked transmission fluid level and found it to be an inch above the upper end of the cross-hatched mark. After pumping out about a quart of ATF my car accelerates much better, coasting longer, and I am filling gas substantially less often - about every 10 days instead of every week.

BTW, I am using both Mobil 1 oil and Mobil 1 ATF. Even after 15,000 miles of driving with overfilled liquid - bubbles, etc., the ATF is so clean and clear that it was difficult to check its level.

ruking1

I am glad you agree with me that fuel mileage is indeed multi facet ed and multi dimensional. I have never seen synthetic motor oil as a "magic elixir" On the other hand, the Mobil One that I do get the highest mpg with is a 5w40. as opposed to a Mobil One 0w20 in the Honda. To address your specific example of tires, I do run 35 psi in the Honda ( the owners manual recommendation for higher speed operation)and 38/36 front/rear or 85% of the maximum side wall pressure in the TDI. On both, I make sure it is checked with the same pressure gauge at the very least once a month. Indeed since they are garage mates, I check them both at the same time. So at the very most the variance is no more than 2 psi.

On the Honda I am indeed conflicted about using synthetic transmission fluid, yet run it on a Corvette and TDI. Not to beat a dead horse into hamburger, but I would anticipate a slight improvement in mpg, given IF I can shake loose a better synthetic ATF recommendation in that Honda recommends its own fluid and that fluid is conventional.

I did experience a slight mpg increase when I went to the Mobil One ATF in a 6 speed manual Z06 Corvette (yes I know it sounds weird, but ATF is the Chevy recommendation)

Mr_Shiftright

Here's a link that discusses the problem with self-testing synthetic oil for fuel economy. As you say, way too many variables to be controlled.

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/gaugingfueleconomyimprovements.htm

The SAE literature seems to suggest 1 to 3% increase and there was a large Castrol test in Europe with over 2,000 cars using synthetic and they determined an average fuel economy gain of 5.54% average. Castrol also did extensive testing on a 5 cylinder TDI engine using synthetic vs. same car using a 15W-40 and came up with 3% better.

So I'd guess somewhere in there, 1%--5% is gonna be real world for most people.

I think the AAA in 2004 tested ATF in a Lexus and published results of 5% or so better fuel mileage.

ruking1

Yes those percentages actually seems to track with my "anecdotal" or real world numbers of 1.14-3.68 mpg. So I think one just needs to do the math and figure out if all the circles and arrows, etc., all line up and does it makes sense to do it?

Mr_Shiftright

3.6 mpg is a larger percentage isn't it?

20 mpg + 3.6 improvement = 17% (approx)

30 mpg + 3.6 improvement = 12%

40 mpg = 3.6 = 8.5% approx.

50 mpg + 3.6 mpg = 7%

That's more than any of the studies achieved, looks like.

tamu2002

I checked out the website in your post. Intersting stuff. Even though those folks had an axe to grind in their ravings about AMSoil, they seem to be justified by the data. I've been aware of the allegded quality of AMSoil and now I think I'm gonna try it at my next oil change for our Quest van, maybe along with their 25K-mile filter. Are there any folks here that tried AMSoil?

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah well usually I don't listen to the rhetoric from the church of AMSoil, because it is just "too-too" on salesmanship (they remind me of infomercials) BUT...at least the guy on this website was "sober" about the varying results of fuel mileage and the reasons for the variations...so my hat off to him for trying to offer a balanced point of view.

I kind of bristle at "too good to be true" claims on any products.

ruking1

Well in my case, while it seems that I am only following my own advice , it was truly an after thought or a "look back". I was planning on switching to Mobil One anyway. As I have mentioned, I was following the owners manual in breaking in the new 2004 Civic, i.e., using the oem factory fill 5w20 CONVENTIONAL oil for the full term or OCI of 10,000 miles.

Research had indicated ExxonMobil SuperFlo (conventional) was THE HOT 5w20 ticket, especially for the price! Since I thought that I might experience some oil consumption in the process of the 10,000 mile break in cycle, wanting some "spare" and knowing I was probably going to switch to synthetic anyway, I spotted a little local sale for Exxon Mobil Super Flo 5w20 at (if I remember .89 cents per qt?). With a send back to the manufacturer 4/5 dollar rebate coupon, this brought the total to .47 per quart? So rather than buy one quart of oil at .89 cents, I bought the rebate requirement of 12 qts @ to be as yet then realized .47 cents per qt, plus one more qt. So now, I had enough oil for two 10,000 mile oil changes and .8 qt of spare.

Further research indicated Mobil One 0w20/5w20, as I said before, 1-3 mpg better, so I did calculations over 20,000 miles at 1-3 mpg of savings. Having used Mobil One in the past research also indicated 20,000 miles OCI was probably conservative. So the gasoline savings @ 2.50 per gal ranged from $37.50-1 mpg, $75-2 mpg,$ 110-3 mpg. So I very simply compared spending $11.14 for conventional oil plus any of those estimated mpg savngs vs spending only 15.87 for the synthetic OCI.

british_rover

I have used it in four or five different vehicles with great results. I used amsoil in my 1990 Jeep Cherokee in both the engine, transmission, X-case, front and rear diff. I could get 33 mpg highway out of that pig with 30X9.5 BFG all terrain tires.

I used it in my 1989 Pontiac bonneville and my best ever highway mpg was 40.1. Between 35 and 38 mpg was more normal for a long highway trip. I got just under 30 mpg around town.

1995 Nissan Maxima that my mom still drives ant it has 180,000 miles on it. Used amsoil from 30,000 miles when she bought it to present.

Also used it on my 2004 MINI Cooper S but i used the euro spec 5w40 in that car. Best ever highway mileage on that car was 40 mpg. Normal highway mileage was around 35-36 and around town 26-28 mpg.

I drove that car a lot harder then all the others because it just made you want to.

I even did some Oil analysis on a couple of those cars although I would have a hard time finding the records after I moved up to CT.

davids1

Cool:

Motor oil for .47 cents per quart. Now that is cheap!!!!!!

;-)

tamu2002

"Research had indicated ExxonMobil SuperFlo was the HOT 5w20 ticket! "

Could you give me a reference to this research? I'm very much interested in reading it. BTW, thanks for all the wonderful information/knowldege ruking. I'm sure many readers here me included learn a lot from your expereince.

tamu2002

Interestingly, in the AMSoil-vs-all-the-others testings, the high temp/shear test showed a difference of only 6% improvement for the best AMSoil compared to the worst (don't rememeber which). This is supposed to be the No. 1 reason for using synthetic. And yet the difference in performance at least shown by this test doesn't seem to justify it. Of course there're other fine reasons for using synthetic. Most of the other tests showed dramatic differences though.

Mr_Shiftright

Not only that, but it's very hard for the layman to know if these differences are even important...just because something 'scores' better doesn't mean that translates into any actual real world benefit for us.

I remember an interesting case of a fraudulent transmission shop. Upon conviction the perpetrator confessed that the smarter the customer was, the easier to fool---he would show them a transmission pump housing with little scratch marks on it and say "that's bad", when in fact it was of no consequence to the longevity of the component.

Sometimes I wonder if I don't fall prey to the same mistake when I read these impressive test results.

ruking1

Well for me, I just use the OCI as a (planning) tool.

I know for an absolute fact that I can run (my) engines on conventional oil a min of 250,000 miles. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND. With any conventional OCI there is of course greater risk for sludging, but hey that just goes with the territory, if one choses conventional. I actually did it on one of my first bought cars a 1970 VW Beetle. The HUGE however was I changed oil between 1500 and MAX and I mean MAX 3,000 miles. This translates app to 167 to 84 OCI's.

I also ran a 1987 TLC 250,000 miles with synthetic and 15,000 mile OCIs. This translates to 17 OCI's. So in my case it was how many translations I wanted to do.

Mr_Shiftright

I run synthetic for benefits other than extended oil changes. I never go past 5,000 miles on an oil change and I doubt I ever will. There's no upside. Oil is too cheap and changing it too easy and recycling is all too handy.

ruking1

Can't say I blame you and I also think the CA emphasis on saving fuel etc is something lip service is given but is not really done. For me OCI's have long long ago ceased to be fun. Even going to the local dealer (or wherever) is a PITA. So with multiple cars LESS (longer)OCI's are better!

The VW Jetta TDI even has a topside oil change option. You literally run a plastic tube down the dipstick and pump up an "evaculator" and your oil is literally in a container ready for disposal in less than 2 mins. The bulk a 10 min OCI is opening the new oil containers pouring it in and its clean up. Still I like the 25,000 mile OCI.

Recycling is part of the water, sewer, garbage bill whether it is used or not. Also the local auto parts purveyors offer used oil recycling free of charge.

tamu2002

I second that! I personally maintain our two cars and would rather spend less time under the car changing oil. Looks like with conventional oil my Accord is going to go much beyond 5K miles, just imagine synthetic! After break-in, I'll most likely switch to synthetic and change it once a year. Heck, even my current conventional factory filled oil will probably last that long.

chuck1959

I have a 2004 Kia Rio Cinco that I drive only 6,000 miles a year. Would there be any advantage for me to switch to a syn....if so what brand.

ruking1

It would be good to start with the oem OCI recommendation.

rockycow33

I tried amsoil 5/20 back in 2002 before mobil had a comparable mobil 1. Empirically I didn't like it, I thought the valve train sounded noisy like a thrashing machine. I do not have any scientific evidence that there was anything wrong with the oil only how the engine sounded with amsoil synthetic 5/20. So, I started using Mobil 1 0/20 when it came out and now use mobil 1 5/20 without any valve train noise complaints.

tamu2002

The noise is what these guys observed too with AMSoil: http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

It might be due to the higher than advertised thickness of the oil.

exploder750

I've always used regular oil of various brands, generally changed on a religious basis, around 3,000-4,000 mile intervals. Synthetic always seemed cost prohibitive. Recently, I was able to pick up 12 quarts of Quaker State 5W30 "Q" full synthetic on a huge rebate program, averaging $1.59/ quart after rebate. I'm considering running this stuff in my 2004 Nissan Quest, 3.5L, for 7000 miles with a clean filter change & top off at the mid point of 3500 miles. Comments?

krzyss

What is OCI in manual?

Krzys

exploder750

Standard Oil Change Interval in the manual is 7500 miles, so I thought going 7000 with an interim clean filter & top off would be safe?

My brother attempted a one year 10,000 interval using Amsoil, but he started getting some engine clatter. I suspect that his filter failed.

krzyss

if you use OE oil filter or better then why change filter in the middle?

Krzys

exploder750

Good point, I am using Original Equipment filters. I suppose it's the peace of mind from a fresh filter, plus the slight dilution of the oil at midpoint with some fresh oil.

bottgers

...the point of splitting an OCI with a filter change.

jeffyscott

In fact in the old days, when something like a 3000 mi. OCI was actually required by manufacturers, wasn't it the opposite...you could change the filter every other oil change?

ruking1

I never heard of or saw any cars' technical data that recommended an every other oil change interval, filter change interval.

I personally had a "wire mesh" screen that served as on "oil filter/screen" in a 1970 VW Beetle.

shipo

I never heard of or saw any cars' technical data that recommended an every other oil change interval, filter change interval.

My 1966 Plymouth Valiant 225 recommended a filter change every second oil change, ditto my 1969 Plymouth Sport Suburban Station Wagon with a 383 2BBL. As fortune would have it, I was doing a little house cleaning recently and came across the manual to my old 1985 Dodge Daytona Turbo. That manual states that the non-Turbo 2.2 liter engine was to have its oil changed every 12 months or 7,500 miles, which ever came first. The filter recommendation is for every second oil change. For the blown 2.2 liter engine the recommended OCI is every 6 months or 7,500 miles, which ever comes first. The filter recommendation is for every oil change.

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

I've had cars where filter change was every other oil change interval. I've always changed at every oil change. Cheap insurance; clean quality filter.

ruking1

So did you actually run 7500 mile OCI's and actually do every 15,000 mile filter changes?

Since I run 15,000 mile OCI's, perhaps I am wasting my money and time changing the filter at 15,000 miles instead of 30,000 miles?

shipo

So did you actually run 7500 mile OCI's and actually do every 15,000 mile filter changes?

No, both of my Plymouths were second hand and each had just a hair over 100,000 miles of Quaker State paraffin abuse before I got them. Talk about a smelly sludge, ewwwww. As such both of them got new Havoline mineral oil and a new filter every three to five thousand miles. Unfortunately I lent the 1969 to a friend who ran the engine dry and threw a rod through the side of the block so I never got a chance to see if the stepped up regimen helped.

On the 1966, it was so crusted up when I bought it (for $220) that I had to pull the valve cover, the rocker train, the spark plug sleeves and the oil pan (damn that's a loooong oil pan) and literally shovel them out. Once back together and filled with new oil that thing ran another 100,000 miles before it was totaled out in front of my house by a Police car involved in a high speed chase. :-( The only indication that I ever had that the mineral oil based Havoline and the stepped up oil and filter changes ever worked was with the oil consumption. When I first got it the engine was burning a quart every 150 miles, however, by the time it tipped over 200,000 miles it was only burning oil a quart every 800-1,000 miles. I attribute the improvement to the cleansing and freeing up of the piston rings.

Regarding the 1985 Turbo Daytona, as I'd had any number of family and friends who'd cooked their turbochargers running conventional oil and using the 7,500 mile OCI, I decided to alter the plan a bit. I stuck with the OCI recommendation; however, that was when I first got real religious about using Synthetic oil. Anecdotal though it may well be, I had never seen any breathed on Mopar 2.2 go more than 50,000 miles on a turbocharger, until mine that is. Mine was still running extremely well on the factory turbo at 110,000 miles when I traded it in, longevity that I attribute directly to the Mobil 1 (15W-40 summer and 5W-40 winter, or something like that) that I was using.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

I almost broke out in a sludgy sweat, imagining a Quaker State oiled engine with 7,500 miles between oil changes!! As I remembered Dodge and Chysler (etc) products at the time, you were indeed lucky if you had NO sludge with 3,000 mile OCI's !!!

I can wax nostalgic about the "good" old days" of lubrication with late 40's on up cars. However to me, 2006 ARE the "good old days"!!!?? To be fair the standards for conventional oil have come a very long way, ie, 5w20 Honda specification conventional oil with OEM recommended 10,000 mile OCI's.

I do like NOW with synthetic oils and 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's. By way of comparison of 1500 to 3,000 mile OCI's, 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's are "miracle" intervals. Innards clean as a whistle are icing on the cake !!

jeffyscott

When I had chysler's 2.2L and also a 2.5L, I think I went with 5000 mi and a filter change every time. I had each for about 12 years and 120K mi and then donated them.

I never did leave filter for two oil changes, just thought I remembered that that was the requirement long ago.

shipo

I do like NOW with synthetic oils and 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's. By way of comparison of 1500 to 3,000 mile OCI's, 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's are "miracle" intervals. Innards clean as a whistle are icing on the cake !!

Yup, I couldn't have said it better. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

Yeah, the 2.2 and 2.5 liter engines were very robust, even the blown versions were extremely bullet proof (except for the turbine bearings if not properly cared for). I remember reading somewhere that the original design spec for the 2.2 was that the block was fully stressed to be able to withstand putting out over 400 HP. That being the case I don't find it at all surprising when I run across the odd Daytona or LeBaron with over 200,000 miles on the clock.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jeffyscott

While my 2.2 and 2.5 kept running they had a number of problems.

The 2.2 needed "valve job" at about 50K...covered by extended warranty or 7/70 power train (I forgot which).

The 2.5 had head gasket in mid-life and its demise was due to about every seal leaking (including rear main seal) and finally, at the end, the head gasket must have gone again. The 2.5 was used to tow a trailer (probaby under 1500# loaded), so it may have suffered from that abuse.

When you guys talk about sludge, what sorts of problems actually result from it? I'm guessing leaking seals would not be a symptom of sludge, but since head gasket could be from overheating might that happen as a result of sludge? Or is it strictly a seized engine that is the end result of excess sludge?

richardson

I see you bashing Quaker State a lot. I have to say I used QS only for about 20 years and never had a problem. Most cars were bought new and sold at about 100k. I changed the oil and filter religously at 2 to 3000 miles. I would have never exceeded that oci.

ruking1

Actually my experience goes back 50 years. The nexus with sludge is my father was an auto mechanic and did rehab engine work. So as a child guess who had the job (among others) of scrapping the glop? You got it, Rodney Dangerfield. Pennzoil is another perennial favorite, if you are looking for another recommendation.

Of course after a while, you develop a "wine" nose for this sort of thing. I got to the point that I didnt even have to open the oil cap or even lift the dip stick. Actually I could correctly guess it at 4 paces. Can you say YUCK?

shipo

I bash it a lot too. As a former wrench I ran in to WAY too many engines that were lubricated with Pennsylvania Grade Crude oils (Quaker State, Pennzoil and Wolf's Head to name a few), and almost without exception these engines were heavily sludged. As if that wasn't bad enough, said sludge was so foul smelling that it would usually trigger my gag reflex, even from an engine that had been meticulously maintained with 3K mile oil changes.

The flip side of course was the engines that I'd tear down that had been fed with a mineral base oil (Havoline and Valvoline to name two), even if they'd been abused through long OCIs, they were never as evil smelling and heavily cruded up on the inside as the engines oiled with the paraffin based Pennsylvania Grade Crude oils.

Best Regards,
Shipo

richardson

I used to notice the smell or stink that you guys mention. The longer it was in the engine the worse it was. Since the only oil I used was QS I thought all used motor oil smelled like that.

richardson

What your father made you do as a child would now be considered child abuse. Uncle sam considers used motor oil a hazardous waste.

ruking1

Actually then and in retrospect now I was happy to help and actually to learn. I think the truth is then and probably even more so now, kids can do better with responsibility.

More on topic, a good reason to go to a min of 10,000 mile OCI's today.

exploder750

I recall the Penzoil/ Quaker State (remember Quaker Maid?) sludge days, and the every other oil change filter change recommendation. As recently as 1977, I recall changing the oil in my then girlfriend's '68 Impala, and her dad being so impressed that I was changing the filter, too!! He was operating on the old wive's tale that removing the filter caused you to lose a LOT more oil.

Do you suppose that Quaker State has figured a way to put paraffin into their synthetic oil?

ruking1

"I do like NOW with synthetic oils and 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's. By way of comparison of 1500 to 3,000 mile OCI's, 15,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's are "miracle" intervals. Innards clean as a whistle are icing on the cake !!

Yup, I couldn't have said it better. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo "

This may be arcane, even for this board. But one application is getting better.

I have been using Mobil One Truck & Suv 5w40, AKA Delvac One 5w40. I have been using it for 25,000 mile OCI's. The fuel of choice since new (82,000 miles now) has been LSD #2 diesel (low sulfur diesel) the majority of which has been CA diesel on road and sulfur NTE 140 ppm. I have traveled in other states, and have used 49 state #2 diesel (standard of 500 ppm).

Just recently, OCT 2006, the CA standard was changed to ULSD 15 ppm (ultra low sulfur diesel)with the other 49 states to follow on.

UPSHOT: I will probably after the next OCI, change the OCI from 25,000 miles to 30,000 miles. (due to far lower sulfur content which greatly lessens the conditions for soot formation, i.e., the soot % is WAY lower, i.e. letting the TBN last for more miles.

Oil consumption has been app an 1/8 of a qt or 4 oz for 17,000 miles.

shipo

Agreed. ULSD should, once and for all, start the process of burying the GM-Diesel ghosts. Contrary to what the Gasoline/Hybrid zealots would have us believe, my guess/bet is that diesel cars will be the Go-To technology of the next decade or two. Why?

1) Lower maintenance
2) Cleaner emissions
3) Higher mileage
4) More fun to drive
5) Truly renewable sources of fuel (not to be confused with the house of cards that E85 {at least the U.S. version of E85} is built upon)

I'm sure I could think of several more reasons, but why bother? ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

british_rover

Agreed. There are so many great diesel motors in the rest of the world they need to start coming to the US soon.

Ford has said the next gen F-150 will get a version of the Range Rover diesel and GM has sais they will start bringing back their diesel SUVs as well.

Now we just need some more diesel cars besides VW and Mercedes.