An interesting study of 2 top synthetic oils in a 2002 Z/28 with 10,000 miles at start time. A bunch of guys ran a test to compare Mobil 1 @ $6 a qt vs AMSOIL 5w30 @ $7 a qt on a 2002 V-8 Camaro for 1 yr. Drove 18,000 miles the first yr with Mobil 1, and 14,000 miles in yr 2 with AMSOIL. They usually use Mobil 1. Was pretty interesting. They sent a sample of the oil to a lab every 1,000 miles. The viscosity in both oils increase over time which the camaro doesn't like. The camaro used about half a qt per 1,000 miles including the test sample taken, typical GM product, and a filter change in the Mobil 1 test at 12,000 miles. So they added at least 5 qts in a yr. that adds new life to the oil. So if your eng uses no oil in 8 thousand miles, change it. The AMSOIL showed less metal wear like copper (cam bearings) in the lab tests. They say maybe the eng wasn't broke in at 10,000 miles in the Mobil 1 test. I say it will need rebuilding @ 50,000 miles,,,,lol *******************************************************
Mobil 1 currently enjoys the distinction of being the only readily available true PAO synthetic motor oil. You can get the stuff at Wal-Mart for Pete's sake! Perhaps because of its wide availability and comparatively low price, we entered this test with both hope and skepticism: hope that it would do well and vindicate millions of M1 users, and skepticism that it would pull it off. We were expecting it to look pretty beat up by 8,000 miles or so; to say we missed the mark would be polite understatement. Mobil 1 really delivered: 18,000 miles later, it was showing its age but was still hard at work protecting the engine.
Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it. Topping up the crankcase is a critical component of extended oil change intervals, and frequent filter changes are most likely the key to extreme-length intervals. The cumulative effect of even minor top-ups, let alone a filter change, substantially increases the longevity of the oil. Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources.
AMSOIL Test;
As with Mobil 1, this first sample is a virgin sample straight out of the bottle. This is our first opportunity to directly compare Amsoil to Mobil 1, and what we see is fascinating. Amsoil seems to take a completely different approach to its additive package than Mobil. Where Mobil relies on molybdenum, boron, and huge doses of calcium, Amsoil has no moly at all, less than half as much boron, and almost a third less calcium. Phosphorus is similar in both formulas, but Amsoil uses more zinc and almost thirty times more magnesium!
Amsoil's viscosity is also higher, putting it midrange for a 5W30 oil while Mobil 1 tends toward the low end of the range. TBN is marginally higher for Amsoil, 12.5 over 11.8 for Mobil 1. Whether this edge will hold over time is something that remains to be seen.
We note that initial wear is significantly reduced from the Mobil 1 sample. Is it the oil at work, or just the natural aging of the engine? Time will tell, we suspect. The first 3,000 miles showed the most wear on Mobil 1, so if Amsoil can buck that trend then it will hold a significant advantage in the long term. Also note that even with over 30,000 miles the copper is still crazy high (hello GM, do your cams ever break in or what?). Insolubles once again jump immediately to 0.3%. If we had to guess, we'd say this is the limit of the filter's abilities, and we're not likely to ever see better than that. Viscosity dropped a bit, something Mobil 1 didn't do, but it remains significantly higher than Mobil 1's viscosity at this stage. Round one, advantage: Amsoil. Clapclapclap.
Mile 14,000 -- Dick Brewster, December 2, 2004. Oil/Vehicle miles: 13,994 / 44,970 Oil added after sample: none
This is it. Amsoil is done! The oil exceeded a year in service, with 14,000 miles on the ticker, and no filter change! Well, if the year hadn't ended, we would have had to change the filter now -- it finally reached our insolubles cap, 2,000 miles after Mobil 1. The main thing that stands out on this, our final Amsoil sample, is the ridiculous viscosity. This 5W30 oil has now thickened out to a 15W40 -- argue whether it matters if you like, but we believe engine builders spec an oil for a reason, and this oil is far, far thicker now than intended for the LS1. Switching to our flush Mobil 1 netted a nearly instant 10% improvement in fuel economy, and the engine runs a heckuva lot smoother too. To Amsoil's credit, wear metals remain in check, but we will soon see whether that was really thanks to the oil or just to engine break-in. We'll start posting detailed analysis in the coming weeks.
I would also add Redline to the list of PAO's; for Redline, Amsoil, Mobil One.
Be that as it may, Mobil One 5w30 has been oem fill and recommendation for the Chevrolet Corvette for a number of years. It is certified to meet the additional GM 4178 M oil specificaton. The engine designation is the V8 LS 1, LS 6 and LS 7. Indeed, if you look at the owners manual, the recommended OCI is up to 15,000 miles or one year OR DIC (driver information center, OLM, i.e., computer)recommendation.
For my last oil change, I switched from Havoline dino to M1 EP to achieve extended OCI's. I plan on going 12K OCI's with this oil. Although this engine has never used any oil between changes, I check my oil once a week out of habit. This also allows me to keep an eye on the color of my oil. I noticed the M1 had turned to roughly the color of maple syrup (but was still transparent enough to see the dipstick) by about the 4K mile mark. The oil now has about 7K on it, and its now lightened to almost the color it was in the bottle (the color has gone back to a light gold color). I have never in all my years of dealing with cars seen an oil darken, then turn light again. Has anyone else experienced this strange phenomenon, and if so, do you know what it means?
Upshot is it is nothing to worry about. If indeed your curiousity is maddening send off for an oil analysis for a "snap shot" of what (importantly) chemically is going on. My quess unless you have some unseen issues going on, all is well. The TREND is what you want to really know BUT to see a trend you will need more data points ie more oil analysis.
I've been following that thread with interest, in lurk mode of course. ;-)
In an attempt to separate the relevant data from all of the noise I did a little research on my own and came up with this:
Mobil 1 EP: One or more offerings are claimed to contain "Base oil severely refined" in combination with "Synthetic base oils" by EM. Mobil 1: Every 0W-xx and 5W-xx I checked are claimed to exclusively contain "Synthetic base oils" by EM.
Funny thing, I've always viewed their Mobil 1 EP product line with a certain amount of suspicion and this latest tidbit just adds more fuel to the fire. For my money it's Mobil 1 0W-40 or nothing. ;-)
Haha, glad you've been lurking shipo, otherwise i wouldnt have anyone to talk to on here.
Anyhow, some people claimed that some advertised synthetic oils with 0w-xx are usually full synthetics. I dont know if i should agree with this or not, i hope it's true, but i dont really know.
P.S. just for additional inputs: i sent a sample to blackstone labs for a UOA of my GC 0w-30 (5.5 qts of the Green version and 1 qt of the Gold version). Ive been reading that the newer version (the gold ones) doesnt contain any esters, mostly made up of pao. The green ones that are harder to find should probably contain some esters. My UOA should be posted on here soon.
Engine Make/Model: 2006 Nissan Titan V8 5.6L Oil interval: 3006 miles Engine mileage: 21058 miles on odometer Oil/oil filter used: 5.5 qts GC 0w-30 Green SL/ 1qt GC0w-30 Gold SL & Napa Gold Makeup oil: 0.25 (switched out Wix oil filter to a Napa Gold after 200 miles due to oil filter leaking) Oil lab: Blackstone Oil samples was taken on 10-30-06
The left is the most recent and the right is from my last sample: 10-31-06 vs 5-24-06(11,634 miles odometer/2569 miles on oil) Aluminum: 1 / 2 Chromium: 0 / 1 Iron: 3 / 6 Copper: 2 / 2 Lead: 1 / 2 Tin: 0 /0 Moly: 1 / 75 Nickel: 0 / 0 Manganese:0 / 0 Silver: 0 / 0 Titanium: 0 / 0 Potassium:0 / 0 Boron: 0 / 38 Silicon: 19 / 12 Sodium: 3 / 8 Calcium: 2736 / 2173 Magnesium:209 / 11 Phosphorus:851 / 571 Zinc: 964 / 672 Barium: 0 / 0
Blackstone's comments: Everything looks a little better in the second sample from your Nissan. Nothing was really out of line last sample, but we always like to see lower wear, especially after a longer oil run. The low wear is a very good sign that this engine is free of any mechanical problems at this point and is well past wear-in. We did find a trace of fuel in the oil. This didn't affect the viscosity and will likely disappear next time, since it's well below our problem level. The TBN was strong at 5.7, showing lots of active additive left. Silicon was a bit high, so we suggest checking the air filter.
My comments: I first changed out the OEM air filter at 5758 miles with a Wix and did my first UOA at 11634 miles with silicon at 12. Then i changed my air filter out at 15128 miles with Wix again and now i get 19? i did check the air filter panel recently and when i lift the air filter up, there seems to have some dust particles underneath the air filter seals. Maybe seals are not sealed enough..
Hmmm, interesting. I don't have the UOA numbers from my first test at hand, however, IIRC my TBN was ~4.5 after 7,500 miles and no make-up oil. That was of course using Mobil 1 0W-40 as opposed to the GC. I wonder if the GC is simply weaker in that area or if the Titan engine is simply harder on the oil.
As a side note, given the presence of coolant in my oil last time around I had planned on performing some remediation steps to try and eliminate the coolant leak (short of replacing the cylinder heads). I was then going to do a short(er) OCI of 5,000 miles and then go for a 7,500 mile OCI and have a sample of that retested.
Well, best laid plans of mice and men and all of that, I took my used oil from the last oil change (the change where I started the 7,500 mile clock) to our local recycling center last weekend and noticed that even though all of my Mobil 1 bottles had a silver cap, some were 0W-40 and others were 5W-30. What the??? I always thought that Mobil 1 had a different colored cap for different grades of oil. Apparently not. Anyway, I have no idea how much of the 5W-30 ended up in which car and as such I have no idea what the composition of oil is in either car. Clearly performing another UOA on this current batch of oil would yield irrelevant results.
So, I'm going to have to delay my planned UOA until the next 7,500 mile interval (starting this weekend when I’ll change out the witches brew for a full fill of 0W-40) which should occur around late February, assuming my current driving pattern doesn't change.
It used to be the case but I think with new shape of the container they just have generic caps. I think somebody found money savings in making the same caps for all grades. It was easy to pick your grade by cap colour. Now you need to pay attention to sticker.
Oops, forgot to mention that the 5-24-06 sample was from a Mobil 1 TSUV 5w-30. Yeah, it is said and is known that the Titan engines are somewhat hard on oil. TBN's are usually low using either syn or dino after about 3k miles from previous Titan UOAs. I dont know what contributes to that, maybe because of the aluminum block/heads or the time chain driven DOHC, etc?
Keep us posted on your next M1 0w-40 UOA Shipo, i always like to see trends from UOAs. Hopefully it all goes well.
In my experience, Mobil 1 tends to turn the color of maple syrup quicker than most other oils. It doesn't really reflect the quality of the oil, so it's nothing to be concerned about.
I would agree!!! However the real "leftover assumption" is a whole lot of folks judge the "worthiness" of oil by its color. The real indicator is OIL analysis which is NOT done by the overwhelming majority, i.e., most folks, for a myriad of reasons.
Beancountant, the only way to know if you can do extended drains is to do a UOA in my opinion. What is your vehicle, miles, or your driving conditions? I think either the PP or M1 will suit your vehicle.
Side note: I hope Exxon-Mobil will at least say something about this big "rumor" going on about some of their synthetic oils being mostly grp 3. I would normally agree with the statement: "One shouldn't really worry about the basestock of an oil, only the performance is what matters", but for those who spends big $$$ on trying to get the best stuff (in this case PAO or Esters), should get what they pay for. Could of been post-Katrina, change in formulation, etc, but who knows?
I think that the alarmist mentality is alive and kicking. Some guy makes a claim that two of the Mobil 1 EP oils contain a majority of Group III base stock instead Group IV PAO and you'd think that Armageddon is at hand. Silly. :P
The only salient facts that I can obtain from all of the noise over there are as follows: - The guy who started the ball rolling has a fair amount of scientific creditability and as such is probably fairly accurate in what he posted - His test results from a Gas Chromatography machine indicated (but did not prove) that Mobil 1 EP (with a manufacture date of 12/2004) sold under the 15W-50 weight classification was primarily Group III - His test results from a Gas Chromatography machine indicated (but did not prove) that Mobil 1 EP (unknown manufacture date) sold under the 5W-30 weight classification was primarily Group III
With the above in mind, I checked ExxonMobil's MSDSs for those oils and found that they (XOM) already claim that the Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 is a Group III, however, they are still claiming that the 15W-50 is a "Full Synthetic". Okay, so we have a disconnect in the 15W-50 EP product only. Given that the date of the oil tested is 21 months before the MSDS, there is lots of room a change in formula without (in my mind at least) being a significant issue.
For some reason, the alarmists over there seem to be extrapolating the test results of the 15W-50 EP into a blanket "Fact" that all Mobil 1 products are Group III oils. To that I say, "Horse Hockey".
Following a different tack, simply take a good look at the Mobil 1 0W-40 (or the 0W-50 now available over in Europe) and all of the vehicle manufacturer oil specifications that Mobil 1 is certified to meet. Those standards are very difficult to meet, and some of them are impossible to meet, even with some fully PAO based oils. Now, take the VW/Audi 503.01 spec; to meet that threshold of performance the oil needs to be able to withstand the rigors of engines like the one in the European Audi S3, a blown 2.0 liter engine putting out over 300 horsepower. Without even being a petroleum engineer it isn't at all a stretch to say that there are no currently known Group III technologies that can stand up to that kind of a beating.
Do I think some of the Mobil 1 EP oils are Group III based? Yes, even ExxonMobil admits that. Do I think some of the Mobil 1 oils are Group III based. Nope. I've looked at the MSDS for all of them (I think), and saw no indications of anything other than a full Group IV base. Will I put my money where my mouth is? Yup. I just bought a dozen more quarts of Mobil 1 0W-40 last night. ;-)
Where do you buy your M1 0-40 from, and at what price per quart? I am hunting for this too, but it seems to be in short supply in my neck of the woods in western NY.
Yeah, I use Mobil One 5w30 (non EP). I will continue to use it. My understanding, it remains a group IV product. When the 5w30 EP product came out, I read the MSDS sheets and combined with the sizeable price premium it did not seem like it was worth the extra price; as I have already been doing 15,000 mile OCI's with the Mobil One 5w30 (non EP)product.
Group III oils are "severely refined" petroleum oils.
Group IV oils are "engineered" oils that have no petroleum used in any part of their construction.
The benefit of the Group IV oils is that they are far more pure than the severely refined (i.e. "hydrocracked") petroleum oils. That purity allows lubrication formulators to create an engine oil that doesn't thin out as much under heat (or thicken as much when real cold) and as such doesn't require as lots of viscosity improvers (VIs) to create oils that can meet "MultiGrade" oil specifications. In fact, some of the more recent formulations don't require any VIs at all, even to meet stringent 0W-50 multigrade standards. So, now you have an oil that started out way more pure and then wasn't gunked up with lots of VIs, meaning that it can now hold the few additives that are still necessary and HUGE amounts of dirts and contaminants in suspension without causing any additional engine wear.
That last bit is a key point because some folks say, "Synthetic oil is overrated because oil is oil and dirt is dirt, so why do some folks think that they can use longer OCIs with synthetic oil." Admittedly this is a bit of an oversimplification, however, the "why" is because synthetic oil can hold so much more dirt in suspension when compared to oils that fall under the lesser capable Group I, Group II and Group III classifications.
All of the Autozone stores that I've been to in our area (southern New Hampshire) carry 0W-40, and they usually have at least a few quarts on hand at all times (although I did clean them out with my purchase of 12 last night). My normal habit is to start shopping for oil right after I do an oil change for both of our cars, and I'm able to fetch 12 quarts in a single stop about half of the time. The rest of the time I need two or even three (just once) visits to buy my usual dozen. The price is $5.49 per quart.
Last summer I happened to be in our local SprawlyWorld and found a six quart case for something like $32.00 and bought it on the spot. As I only shop at Walmart a couple of times per year, I have yet to be back to see if they still carry it.
Indeed while folks would think WalMart sells the same stuff in all its stores, the fact of the matter (in regards to Mobil One oil anyway) caters to the local markets. A year ago I was looking for 5w40 Mobil One Truck and SUV in the 5 qt container and not a one was to be found in three local stores. On a trip to mid central Florida, the local WalMart had many containers of that product. So I bought a few.
Yeah, it's definitly a hit or miss thing with them. That said, clearly it's on the order form so if you shop there a lot, I'd bet that you can get your local department manager to order you a case or three. ;-)
My mistake has been to look for oil just before an oil change was needed, meaning I had to settle for whatever M1 was available (usually 5w30) which is fine but not as good as 0-40 I think.
I will now employ Shipo's strategy of buying in wherever and whenever to use. My OCD led to my previous behaviour because I had a neat receipt with the correct date and amount of oil stated. This way I will end up with a mishmash of paperwork over 4 cars, but hey, the 0-40 oil will be in there!
Wal-Mart has one of the most sophisticated point-of-purchase data processing systems in the world, and each Wal-Mart store's inventory is specifically tweaked to it's local customer sales base.
The problem with systems like that is that you have a chicken and egg scenario. How can I buy 0W-40 from them if they won't order it? Then again, why would they order 0W-40 for any given store if nobody is buying it? ;-)
Thanks a bunch for threads like these! For me it has helped in my research and has allowed me to save resources, money, time and effort, while maximizing the use of the resources I do use.
I almost planned on buying some M1 EP products until i heard about the grp III stuff....
-Shipo, in your opinion, do you think the EP products (which presumbly contain mostly grp III with some grp IV PAO & grp V AN), can go the distance up to 15k miles? Im trying to gather some thoughts on this... thanks.
In my very non-scientifically supported opinion, Mobil 1 EP in either 5W-30 or 15W-50 cannot go a full 15,000 miles, in spite of the "Guarantee". That said, I've never tried either of those oils and I've yet to see any UOA results (haven't looked either) for them as well.
Considering the latest debacle I don't trust XOM anymore, and I've never really been comfortable doing extenended OCI's, which is the main reason I switched to M1 in the first place. I'm going back to my comfort zone of using Havoline dino with 6K OCI's.
I use Amsoil, purchase it as a preferred customer, generally for less than M1.
This time however I purchased oil at GI Joe's. They had mislabeled their 10W-30 for only $ 5.40, less a $ 1 coupon per QT. Quite a bit under their cost.
At $ 4.40 I purchased the remaining inventory of 19 quarts and now have enough for 3 years.
After half a dozen excellent Oil Analysis my OCI's are 25k miles and I couldn't be happier.
I do have a dual filter by-pass setup in my 2001 Toyota Echo and that ensures very clean oil.
Based on the analysis done so far I could go for more miles per OCI but it is good to crawl under the car at least yearly to check for potential problems.
I don't know what your experiences with Havoline (Chevron, same thing) were, but my UOA's up to 6K were excellent. In fact, I could probably go 7K-8K or even more, but why push it? 6K on dino is plenty long enough.
... most folks are asleep at the wheel. The good news and the bad news are the new longer "European" products are hitting the USA market. One example is ELF 5w30 with among others meets and or exceeds the VW 507.00 specifications. This can mean up to 50,000 kilometers OR 31,068 miles. The bad news of course is 11.50 per liter, retail (.0003701 per mile lubricated vs 1 per qt @ 3000 mile OCI or .000333 )
So even though I go 25,000 to 30,000 miles on the Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck and SUV (does NOT meet VW 507 specification) the price (4 per quart) makes it seem like an absolute bargain. (.00016)
... most folks are asleep at the wheel. The good news and the bad news are the new longer "European" products are hitting the USA market. One example is ELF Solaris LLX 5w30 with among others meets and or exceeds the VW 507.00 specifications. This can mean up to 50,000 kilometers OR 31,068 miles OCI's!!!! . The bad news of course is 11.50 per liter, retail (.0003701 per mile lubricated vs 1 per qt @ 3000 mile OCI or .000333 )
So even though I go 25,000 to 30,000 miles on the Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck and SUV (does NOT meet VW 507 specification) the price (4 per quart) makes it seem like an absolute bargain. (.00016)
I have a '99 Camry and drove home, closed the engine and began to smell something coming from the hood. Smoke was coming out below the oil filter area and when I checked the oil dipstick, there was very little oil (probably engine was really hot). I checked underneath the car and there was oil on the floor. I checked outside on my driveway and there were small puddles of oil in two locations - so it appears that it has been leaking for some time now (I had the oil changed by the Toyo dealer two weeks ago).
Hopefully my synthetic oil prevented seizure - I don't know how long I was driving with very little oil in my engine. I'm going to have the car towed to the dealer tomorrow morning.
As long as there is oil showing on the dipstick you are fine - no need for a tow, you should be able to just put some more oil in and drive to the dealer. Now if your oil light was on that would be different - that means your oil was really low.
My Integra has a leak around the rear main seal and it routinely runs down to the bottom mark on the dipstick - at which point I add a quart. No harm done - the car has 225,000 miles.
FWIW some hypermilers routinely run half a quart low to reduce energy lost to pumping and improve fuel mileage ever so slightly.
I have been using Amsoil 5w-30 synthetic for two years now with 1 year oil change intervals. I have also used Amsoil oil & air filters. Prior to this I used Mobil 1 with 3 month change intervals. I'm not happy with the oil analysis I just received from Blackstone Labs after one year and 15,772 miles. Here are their comments:
This oil was in use for too long a distance for this engine to handle as can be seen by the higher than average amount of wear metals (Iron 35ppm). The TBN was 0.0, showing no active additive in the oil. Silicon at 44 ppm is either from a silicone-based lube/sealer/gasket or it is dirt getting past the air filter, so check that out. Oil viscosity was higher than normal due to extended use. We suggest a 7500-mile oil change to help improve wear and check back to see the results.
I know there are some people who don't like Amsoil, but I'm looking for everyone's opinion of this.
In reply to Smokey75, have you been using AMSOIL's 5 W 30 XL or the ASL grade? AMSOIL's ASL grade is 100% purely synthetic oil (with no blend of super refined petroleum oil), which allows it to go a full one year or 25,000 miles if you drive under the most ideal of conditions, on the hand, if your driving is more punishing (which qualifies the service as being "severe" under most owner's manuals), then they claim you should change the oil every 15,000 or one year. In addition, you might recall that AMSOIL recommended that the oil filter be changed every 6 months and then top off the crankcase with fresh new oil lost by the oil filter change. That 6 month oil filter change was even with their own oil filters, until their EA filter had been released. AMSOIL now has a superb fully synthetic filter, called an EA filter, that is designed to go the distance of one year, but that filter is fairly new and I doubt it was around when you changed the oil over 15,000 miles ago. Did you change your oil filter at the 6 month interval with the addition of the fresh oil before you reached 15,000 miles? AMSOIL's XL grade is a blend of super refined dinosaur juice with synthetic oil that most everyone seems to be accusing Exxon Mobil (the corporation that made more profits in one year than any company in U.S. history) of using with their Mobil 1 brand. In AMSOIL's case, they recommend that this grade of XL oil be used only for 7,500 miles or six months. If this is the oil grade you had been using, then no wonder why it wouldn't be good at 15,000 miles. This XL grade uses a TBN (Total Base Number) of only 9 in comparison to the 12.2 TBN used by AMSOIL's ASL grade. That TBN is used to neutralize acids that form from your engine by using alkalinity. You need a high TBN number to go the distance on long oil change intervals. I saw specs published on the net that indicated that as of March of 2003, Mobil 1 only used a TBN of 5.0 in their grade of 5 W 30, which would not seem like an oil you'd want to take for the distance. Maybe M1 has increased its TBN at the current time, but I don't know for sure. There are other additives in a motor oil than the TBN number. What type of air filter are you using? AMSOIL's EA air filters filter out 4-5 times as much dirt as paper filters, which can be cleaned and used again. They also have foam filters that would seem to be the ultimate in preventing dirt to get into your engine in the first place. As Altair4 correctly indicates, the operating conditions of the oil could be further compounded by what type of car you own, how dusty the trail you drive, how cold it happens to be, how much you punish your car by taking your engine to the redline or above, whether your car is a turbo, supercharged, etc.
I was a former fan of Mobil 1, where I used that oil for quite awhile in both my cars and I was under the impression that this was the best oil on the market, possibly due to their advertising and such. I should also point out that I was formerly a stock holder of Exxon Mobil too, but not any longer. I was intrigued by the independent tests conducted on Mobil 1 and AMSOIL and saw how many categories that AMSOIL beat Mobil 1 from the various articles on the net. I first tried AMSOIL's 100:1 two cycle oil in my snow blower and I was amazed at how good it ran. Then I used AMSOIL's 5W30 ASL grade that is truly a full synthetic (with no super refined petroleum oil) last winter and I was amazed at the increase of power the engine seemed to possess than with the former Mobil 1 oil that I was using (I am comparing here the AMSOIL to both the performance of the used Mobil 1 and also how the car ran when I first put Mobil 1 in the crankcase as fresh new oil). I tried the AMSOIL on my second car and again, noticed the same sensation of increased performance than Mobil 1. In case anyone thinks that all syntethics run the same and how could anyone detect such a difference, I would like to cite an example where once I thought I would try Valvoline's full synthetic at a quick change Valvoline dealer some years ago. I was so disgusted how my engine dropped in performance with the brand new Valvoline synthetic in comparison with the Mobil 1 with 4,000 to 5,000 miles on it, that caused me to go back to them to complain. I couldn't believe it when they said they would put in brand new Mobil 1 for no extra charge when I had maybe 100 to 200 miles on the new Valv syn oil. After they put in the Mobil 1, except for the small amount of Valv Syn that remained with the retained oil filter, I definitely saw an increase in performance (I would call this new oil to new oil comparison). Sorry Valvoline. Is it possible that the reason AMSOIL ran better in both my cars than Mobil 1 was on the basis of AMSOIL being a 100% true synthetic, where M1 is perhaps a blend of synthetic and super refined petroleum (according to many fellow participants in this forum)? All I know is I am now a true believer in AMSOIL and a staunch supporter of AMSOIL. Sorry Exxon Mobil, I believed in your products, but not any longer. No, I am not any stockholder or a dealer, although I am now a preferred customer in order to get their lower rates on their products. I am seriously considering becoming a dealer of theirs, which is how much I believe in their products right now. AMSOIL was the first company to market a full synthetic motor oil being in compliance with the SAE back in 1972 and then Mobil jumped on the bandwagon back in 1974. I also changed the ATF in both my car's transmissions with AMSOIL Fully Synthetic ATF and I also couldn't believe the difference it made in both cars. In my wife's Ford Taurus, I already had two former ATF changes, so again, I know the difference in performance between the last time my dealer provided a full purge of their Mercon V ATF (a partial synthetic) and the AMSOIL change that I did last month. The trans in the Ford now not only shifts smoother and warms up much sooner, but the performance seems to have been enhanced as well. The Dodge only had one ATF change at just over 60,000 miles that I did with the AMSOIL that was both a drop and clean the bottom of the pan with a filter change, but also a purge as well. The Dodge also shifts much smoother and it seems like its performance was enhanced as well. The Dodge seemed to shift very roughly, even when it was new and my wife used to complain about the car's "jerky" ride all the time, until the AMSOIL ATF was used. Now my wife enjoys driving the Dodge herself. I have read where the AMSOIL ATF can reduce the temperature of the trans by 20-50 degrees, which is one of the biggest reasons I bought it, considering how damaging heat can be to the trans and to the fluid itself. In addition, this fluid is good down to -61 degrees F, which should increase the gas mileage in the cold winters, which is something folks in the Northern states, Canada and Alaska can definitely appreciate. Happy Motoring!!
Comments
A bunch of guys ran a test to compare Mobil 1 @ $6 a qt vs AMSOIL 5w30 @ $7 a qt on a 2002 V-8 Camaro for 1 yr. Drove 18,000 miles the first yr with Mobil 1, and 14,000 miles in yr 2 with AMSOIL.
They usually use Mobil 1.
Was pretty interesting. They sent a sample of the oil to a lab every 1,000 miles. The viscosity in both oils increase over time which the camaro doesn't like. The camaro used about half a qt per 1,000 miles including the test sample taken, typical GM product, and a filter change in the Mobil 1 test at 12,000 miles. So they added at least 5 qts in a yr. that adds new life to the oil. So if your eng uses no oil in 8 thousand miles, change it. The AMSOIL showed less metal wear like copper (cam bearings) in the lab tests. They say maybe the eng wasn't broke in at 10,000 miles in the Mobil 1 test. I say it will need rebuilding @ 50,000 miles,,,,lol
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Mobil 1 currently enjoys the distinction of being the only readily available true PAO synthetic motor oil. You can get the stuff at Wal-Mart for Pete's sake! Perhaps because of its wide availability and comparatively low price, we entered this test with both hope and skepticism: hope that it would do well and vindicate millions of M1 users, and skepticism that it would pull it off. We were expecting it to look pretty beat up by 8,000 miles or so; to say we missed the mark would be polite understatement. Mobil 1 really delivered: 18,000 miles later, it was showing its age but was still hard at work protecting the engine.
Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it.
Topping up the crankcase is a critical component of extended oil change intervals, and frequent filter changes are most likely the key to extreme-length intervals. The cumulative effect of even minor top-ups, let alone a filter change, substantially increases the longevity of the oil.
Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources.
AMSOIL Test;
As with Mobil 1, this first sample is a virgin sample straight out of the bottle. This is our first opportunity to directly compare Amsoil to Mobil 1, and what we see is fascinating. Amsoil seems to take a completely different approach to its additive package than Mobil. Where Mobil relies on molybdenum, boron, and huge doses of calcium, Amsoil has no moly at all, less than half as much boron, and almost a third less calcium. Phosphorus is similar in both formulas, but Amsoil uses more zinc and almost thirty times more magnesium!
Amsoil's viscosity is also higher, putting it midrange for a 5W30 oil while Mobil 1 tends toward the low end of the range. TBN is marginally higher for Amsoil, 12.5 over 11.8 for Mobil 1. Whether this edge will hold over time is something that remains to be seen.
We note that initial wear is significantly reduced from the Mobil 1 sample. Is it the oil at work, or just the natural aging of the engine? Time will tell, we suspect. The first 3,000 miles showed the most wear on Mobil 1, so if Amsoil can buck that trend then it will hold a significant advantage in the long term. Also note that even with over 30,000 miles the copper is still crazy high (hello GM, do your cams ever break in or what?). Insolubles once again jump immediately to 0.3%. If we had to guess, we'd say this is the limit of the filter's abilities, and we're not likely to ever see better than that. Viscosity dropped a bit, something Mobil 1 didn't do, but it remains significantly higher than Mobil 1's viscosity at this stage. Round one, advantage: Amsoil. Clapclapclap.
Mile 14,000 -- Dick Brewster, December 2, 2004.
Oil/Vehicle miles: 13,994 / 44,970
Oil added after sample: none
This is it. Amsoil is done! The oil exceeded a year in service, with 14,000 miles on the ticker, and no filter change! Well, if the year hadn't ended, we would have had to change the filter now -- it finally reached our insolubles cap, 2,000 miles after Mobil 1. The main thing that stands out on this, our final Amsoil sample, is the ridiculous viscosity. This 5W30 oil has now thickened out to a 15W40 -- argue whether it matters if you like, but we believe engine builders spec an oil for a reason, and this oil is far, far thicker now than intended for the LS1. Switching to our flush Mobil 1 netted a nearly instant 10% improvement in fuel economy, and the engine runs a heckuva lot smoother too. To Amsoil's credit, wear metals remain in check, but we will soon see whether that was really thanks to the oil or just to engine break-in. We'll start posting detailed analysis in the coming weeks.
Full lab test story at,
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
Check out their test of major brands.
http://oilspecialist.com/performancetests/g1971/index.html
Be that as it may, Mobil One 5w30 has been oem fill and recommendation for the Chevrolet Corvette for a number of years. It is certified to meet the additional GM 4178 M oil specificaton. The engine designation is the V8 LS 1, LS 6 and LS 7. Indeed, if you look at the owners manual, the recommended OCI is up to 15,000 miles or one year OR DIC (driver information center, OLM, i.e., computer)recommendation.
Read up here on bitog:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=751041&page=0&f- part=1&vc=1
In an attempt to separate the relevant data from all of the noise I did a little research on my own and came up with this:
Mobil 1 EP: One or more offerings are claimed to contain "Base oil severely refined" in combination with "Synthetic base oils" by EM.
Mobil 1: Every 0W-xx and 5W-xx I checked are claimed to exclusively contain "Synthetic base oils" by EM.
Funny thing, I've always viewed their Mobil 1 EP product line with a certain amount of suspicion and this latest tidbit just adds more fuel to the fire. For my money it's Mobil 1 0W-40 or nothing. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Anyhow, some people claimed that some advertised synthetic oils with 0w-xx are usually full synthetics. I dont know if i should agree with this or not, i hope it's true, but i dont really know.
P.S. just for additional inputs: i sent a sample to blackstone labs for a UOA of my GC 0w-30 (5.5 qts of the Green version and 1 qt of the Gold version). Ive been reading that the newer version (the gold ones) doesnt contain any esters, mostly made up of pao. The green ones that are harder to find should probably contain some esters. My UOA should be posted on here soon.
Engine Make/Model: 2006 Nissan Titan V8 5.6L
Oil interval: 3006 miles
Engine mileage: 21058 miles on odometer
Oil/oil filter used: 5.5 qts GC 0w-30 Green SL/ 1qt GC0w-30 Gold SL & Napa Gold
Makeup oil: 0.25 (switched out Wix oil filter to a Napa Gold after 200 miles due to oil filter leaking)
Oil lab: Blackstone
Oil samples was taken on 10-30-06
The left is the most recent and the right is from my last sample:
10-31-06 vs 5-24-06(11,634 miles odometer/2569 miles on oil)
Aluminum: 1 / 2
Chromium: 0 / 1
Iron: 3 / 6
Copper: 2 / 2
Lead: 1 / 2
Tin: 0 /0
Moly: 1 / 75
Nickel: 0 / 0
Manganese:0 / 0
Silver: 0 / 0
Titanium: 0 / 0
Potassium:0 / 0
Boron: 0 / 38
Silicon: 19 / 12
Sodium: 3 / 8
Calcium: 2736 / 2173
Magnesium:209 / 11
Phosphorus:851 / 571
Zinc: 964 / 672
Barium: 0 / 0
TBN: 5.7 / 4.8
SUS viscosity@ 210F: 65.5 / 59.1
Flashpoint: 385F / 390
Fuel: TR / 0
Antifreeze: 0 / 0
Water: 0 / 0
Insolubles: 0.1 / TR
Blackstone's comments: Everything looks a little better in the second sample from your Nissan. Nothing was really out of line last sample, but we always like to see lower wear, especially after a longer oil run. The low wear is a very good sign that this engine is free of any mechanical problems at this point and is well past wear-in. We did find a trace of fuel in the oil. This didn't affect the viscosity and will likely disappear next time, since it's well below our problem level. The TBN was strong at 5.7, showing lots of active additive left. Silicon was a bit high, so we suggest checking the air filter.
My comments: I first changed out the OEM air filter at 5758 miles with a Wix and did my first UOA at 11634 miles with silicon at 12. Then i changed my air filter out at 15128 miles with Wix again and now i get 19? i did check the air filter panel recently and when i lift the air filter up, there seems to have some dust particles underneath the air filter seals. Maybe seals are not sealed enough..
As a side note, given the presence of coolant in my oil last time around I had planned on performing some remediation steps to try and eliminate the coolant leak (short of replacing the cylinder heads). I was then going to do a short(er) OCI of 5,000 miles and then go for a 7,500 mile OCI and have a sample of that retested.
Well, best laid plans of mice and men and all of that, I took my used oil from the last oil change (the change where I started the 7,500 mile clock) to our local recycling center last weekend and noticed that even though all of my Mobil 1 bottles had a silver cap, some were 0W-40 and others were 5W-30. What the??? I always thought that Mobil 1 had a different colored cap for different grades of oil. Apparently not. Anyway, I have no idea how much of the 5W-30 ended up in which car and as such I have no idea what the composition of oil is in either car. Clearly performing another UOA on this current batch of oil would yield irrelevant results.
So, I'm going to have to delay my planned UOA until the next 7,500 mile interval (starting this weekend when I’ll change out the witches brew for a full fill of 0W-40) which should occur around late February, assuming my current driving pattern doesn't change.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I think somebody found money savings in making the same caps for all grades.
It was easy to pick your grade by cap colour. Now you need to pay attention to sticker.
Krzys
Keep us posted on your next M1 0w-40 UOA Shipo, i always like to see trends from UOAs.
Eric
;-)
Krzys
Can I use a OCI of 7K miles for the Platinum Oil?
Side note: I hope Exxon-Mobil will at least say something about this big "rumor" going on about some of their synthetic oils being mostly grp 3. I would normally agree with the statement: "One shouldn't really worry about the basestock of an oil, only the performance is what matters", but for those who spends big $$$ on trying to get the best stuff (in this case PAO or Esters), should get what they pay for. Could of been post-Katrina, change in formulation, etc, but who knows?
Thanks
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/
https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Home/Homepage.aspx
The only salient facts that I can obtain from all of the noise over there are as follows:
- The guy who started the ball rolling has a fair amount of scientific creditability and as such is probably fairly accurate in what he posted
- His test results from a Gas Chromatography machine indicated (but did not prove) that Mobil 1 EP (with a manufacture date of 12/2004) sold under the 15W-50 weight classification was primarily Group III
- His test results from a Gas Chromatography machine indicated (but did not prove) that Mobil 1 EP (unknown manufacture date) sold under the 5W-30 weight classification was primarily Group III
With the above in mind, I checked ExxonMobil's MSDSs for those oils and found that they (XOM) already claim that the Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 is a Group III, however, they are still claiming that the 15W-50 is a "Full Synthetic". Okay, so we have a disconnect in the 15W-50 EP product only. Given that the date of the oil tested is 21 months before the MSDS, there is lots of room a change in formula without (in my mind at least) being a significant issue.
For some reason, the alarmists over there seem to be extrapolating the test results of the 15W-50 EP into a blanket "Fact" that all Mobil 1 products are Group III oils. To that I say, "Horse Hockey".
Following a different tack, simply take a good look at the Mobil 1 0W-40 (or the 0W-50 now available over in Europe) and all of the vehicle manufacturer oil specifications that Mobil 1 is certified to meet. Those standards are very difficult to meet, and some of them are impossible to meet, even with some fully PAO based oils. Now, take the VW/Audi 503.01 spec; to meet that threshold of performance the oil needs to be able to withstand the rigors of engines like the one in the European Audi S3, a blown 2.0 liter engine putting out over 300 horsepower. Without even being a petroleum engineer it isn't at all a stretch to say that there are no currently known Group III technologies that can stand up to that kind of a beating.
Do I think some of the Mobil 1 EP oils are Group III based? Yes, even ExxonMobil admits that. Do I think some of the Mobil 1 oils are Group III based. Nope. I've looked at the MSDS for all of them (I think), and saw no indications of anything other than a full Group IV base. Will I put my money where my mouth is? Yup. I just bought a dozen more quarts of Mobil 1 0W-40 last night. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
TIA!
Group IV oils are "engineered" oils that have no petroleum used in any part of their construction.
The benefit of the Group IV oils is that they are far more pure than the severely refined (i.e. "hydrocracked") petroleum oils. That purity allows lubrication formulators to create an engine oil that doesn't thin out as much under heat (or thicken as much when real cold) and as such doesn't require as lots of viscosity improvers (VIs) to create oils that can meet "MultiGrade" oil specifications. In fact, some of the more recent formulations don't require any VIs at all, even to meet stringent 0W-50 multigrade standards. So, now you have an oil that started out way more pure and then wasn't gunked up with lots of VIs, meaning that it can now hold the few additives that are still necessary and HUGE amounts of dirts and contaminants in suspension without causing any additional engine wear.
That last bit is a key point because some folks say, "Synthetic oil is overrated because oil is oil and dirt is dirt, so why do some folks think that they can use longer OCIs with synthetic oil." Admittedly this is a bit of an oversimplification, however, the "why" is because synthetic oil can hold so much more dirt in suspension when compared to oils that fall under the lesser capable Group I, Group II and Group III classifications.
Clear as mud yet? ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Last summer I happened to be in our local SprawlyWorld and found a six quart case for something like $32.00 and bought it on the spot. As I only shop at Walmart a couple of times per year, I have yet to be back to see if they still carry it.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
I will now employ Shipo's strategy of buying in wherever and whenever to use. My OCD led to my previous behaviour because I had a neat receipt with the correct date and amount of oil stated. This way I will end up with a mishmash of paperwork over 4 cars, but hey, the 0-40 oil will be in there!
Best Regards,
Shipo
-Shipo, in your opinion, do you think the EP products (which presumbly contain mostly grp III with some grp IV PAO & grp V AN), can go the distance up to 15k miles? Im trying to gather some thoughts on this... thanks.
Best Regards,
Shipo
This time however I purchased oil at GI Joe's. They had mislabeled their 10W-30 for only $ 5.40, less a $ 1 coupon per QT. Quite a bit under their cost.
At $ 4.40 I purchased the remaining inventory of 19 quarts and now have enough for 3 years.
After half a dozen excellent Oil Analysis my OCI's are 25k miles and I couldn't be happier.
I do have a dual filter by-pass setup in my 2001 Toyota Echo and that ensures very clean oil.
Based on the analysis done so far I could go for more miles per OCI but it is good to crawl under the car at least yearly to check for potential problems.
Not after my experiences with it.
I am running 20,000 mile OCI's with 0w20 Mobil One oil. As with yours, I am sure oil analysis would show 20,000 mile OCI's to be way too conservative.
You can still go for more miles per oci, just continue to crawl under your car at least once a year!
http://www.turbofrogperformance.com/Products/Engine/ELF_Oil.htm
So even though I go 25,000 to 30,000 miles on the Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck and SUV (does NOT meet VW 507 specification) the price (4 per quart) makes it seem like an absolute bargain. (.00016)
http://www.turbofrogperformance.com/Products/Engine/ELF_Oil.htm
So even though I go 25,000 to 30,000 miles on the Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck and SUV (does NOT meet VW 507 specification) the price (4 per quart) makes it seem like an absolute bargain. (.00016)
Hopefully my synthetic oil prevented seizure - I don't know how long I was driving with very little oil in my engine. I'm going to have the car towed to the dealer tomorrow morning.
My Integra has a leak around the rear main seal and it routinely runs down to the bottom mark on the dipstick - at which point I add a quart. No harm done - the car has 225,000 miles.
FWIW some hypermilers routinely run half a quart low to reduce energy lost to pumping and improve fuel mileage ever so slightly.
This oil was in use for too long a distance for this engine to handle as can be seen by the higher than average amount of wear metals (Iron 35ppm). The TBN was 0.0, showing no active additive in the oil. Silicon at 44 ppm is either from a silicone-based lube/sealer/gasket or it is dirt getting past the air filter, so check that out. Oil viscosity was higher than normal due to extended use. We suggest a 7500-mile oil change to help improve wear and check back to see the results.
I know there are some people who don't like Amsoil, but I'm looking for everyone's opinion of this.
In addition, you might recall that AMSOIL recommended that the oil filter be changed every 6 months and then top off the crankcase with fresh new oil lost by the oil filter change. That 6 month oil filter change was even with their own oil filters, until their EA filter had been released. AMSOIL now has a superb fully synthetic filter, called an EA filter, that is designed to go the distance of one year, but that filter is fairly new and I doubt it was around when you changed the oil over 15,000 miles ago. Did you change your oil filter at the 6 month interval with the addition of the fresh oil before you reached 15,000 miles?
AMSOIL's XL grade is a blend of super refined dinosaur juice with synthetic oil that most everyone seems to be accusing Exxon Mobil (the corporation that made more profits in one year than any company in U.S. history) of using with their Mobil 1 brand. In AMSOIL's case, they recommend that this grade of XL oil be used only for 7,500 miles or six months. If this is the oil grade you had been using, then no wonder why it wouldn't be good at 15,000 miles. This XL grade uses a TBN (Total Base Number) of only 9 in comparison to the 12.2 TBN used by AMSOIL's ASL grade. That TBN is used to neutralize acids that form from your engine by using alkalinity. You need a high TBN number to go the distance on long oil change intervals. I saw specs published on the net that indicated that as of March of 2003, Mobil 1 only used a TBN of 5.0 in their grade of 5 W 30, which would not seem like an oil you'd want to take for the distance. Maybe M1 has increased its TBN at the current time, but I don't know for sure. There are other additives in a motor oil than the TBN number.
What type of air filter are you using? AMSOIL's EA air filters filter out 4-5 times as much dirt as paper filters, which can be cleaned and used again. They also have foam filters that would seem to be the ultimate in preventing dirt to get into your engine in the first place.
As Altair4 correctly indicates, the operating conditions of the oil could be further compounded by what type of car you own, how dusty the trail you drive, how cold it happens to be, how much you punish your car by taking your engine to the redline or above, whether your car is a turbo, supercharged, etc.
I was intrigued by the independent tests conducted on Mobil 1 and AMSOIL and saw how many categories that AMSOIL beat Mobil 1 from the various articles on the net. I first tried AMSOIL's 100:1 two cycle oil in my snow blower and I was amazed at how good it ran. Then I used AMSOIL's 5W30 ASL grade that is truly a full synthetic (with no super refined petroleum oil) last winter and I was amazed at the increase of power the engine seemed to possess than with the former Mobil 1 oil that I was using (I am comparing here the AMSOIL to both the performance of the used Mobil 1 and also how the car ran when I first put Mobil 1 in the crankcase as fresh new oil). I tried the AMSOIL on my second car and again, noticed the same sensation of increased performance than Mobil 1.
In case anyone thinks that all syntethics run the same and how could anyone detect such a difference, I would like to cite an example where once I thought I would try Valvoline's full synthetic at a quick change Valvoline dealer some years ago. I was so disgusted how my engine dropped in performance with the brand new Valvoline synthetic in comparison with the Mobil 1 with 4,000 to 5,000 miles on it, that caused me to go back to them to complain. I couldn't believe it when they said they would put in brand new Mobil 1 for no extra charge when I had maybe 100 to 200 miles on the new Valv syn oil. After they put in the Mobil 1, except for the small amount of Valv Syn that remained with the retained oil filter, I definitely saw an increase in performance (I would call this new oil to new oil comparison). Sorry Valvoline.
Is it possible that the reason AMSOIL ran better in both my cars than Mobil 1 was on the basis of AMSOIL being a 100% true synthetic, where M1 is perhaps a blend of synthetic and super refined petroleum (according to many fellow participants in this forum)? All I know is I am now a true believer in AMSOIL and a staunch supporter of AMSOIL. Sorry Exxon Mobil, I believed in your products, but not any longer.
No, I am not any stockholder or a dealer, although I am now a preferred customer in order to get their lower rates on their products. I am seriously considering becoming a dealer of theirs, which is how much I believe in their products right now. AMSOIL was the first company to market a full synthetic motor oil being in compliance with the SAE back in 1972 and then Mobil jumped on the bandwagon back in 1974.
I also changed the ATF in both my car's transmissions with AMSOIL Fully Synthetic ATF and I also couldn't believe the difference it made in both cars. In my wife's Ford Taurus, I already had two former ATF changes, so again, I know the difference in performance between the last time my dealer provided a full purge of their Mercon V ATF (a partial synthetic) and the AMSOIL change that I did last month. The trans in the Ford now not only shifts smoother and warms up much sooner, but the performance seems to have been enhanced as well. The Dodge only had one ATF change at just over 60,000 miles that I did with the AMSOIL that was both a drop and clean the bottom of the pan with a filter change, but also a purge as well. The Dodge also shifts much smoother and it seems like its performance was enhanced as well. The Dodge seemed to shift very roughly, even when it was new and my wife used to complain about the car's "jerky" ride all the time, until the AMSOIL ATF was used. Now my wife enjoys driving the Dodge herself.
I have read where the AMSOIL ATF can reduce the temperature of the trans by 20-50 degrees, which is one of the biggest reasons I bought it, considering how damaging heat can be to the trans and to the fluid itself. In addition, this fluid is good down to -61 degrees F, which should increase the gas mileage in the cold winters, which is something folks in the Northern states, Canada and Alaska can definitely appreciate. Happy Motoring!!