Subaru Crew - Dealers & Pricing

francophile

Becker isn't far at all from Sellersville. I don't know what their service is like, but their prices must be great - they're one of the top dealers in the country in sales. Plus they have a guy who scans the Subie newsgroups and posts helpful stuff, which gives them good marks in my book :-)

Cheers,
-wdb

marsh511

My wife and I visited Carlsen Subaru in Redwood City, CA (San Francisco area). This dealership had nearly FIFTY Foresters of all flavors in stock and boasted a "No Haggle, 2.75% over invoice" 'policy'. In checking prices with CarsDirect and other such sites, this 2.75% over invoice compared unfavorably by somewhere around $300-500, depending on specific vehicle.

For those that have recently purchased a Forester, has there been opportunities to beat these prices? How firm are these "no haggle" policies? I have to think that with 50 vehicles in inventory, they'd want to move them... and a 3% holdback for the dealer suggests to me that they'd be willing to deal.

Any advice/information/education would be much appreciated!

Thanks

lark6

I live in Bucks County and bought my '00 Forester S from Fred Beans at $200 over invoice in January '00. They didn't give me as much as I'd have liked for my trade-in - tried to convince me that my car had been in a major accident and had a bad repaint. Not true because we bought it new, then again it was a GM product. Service is very friendly, not always the best; their error in replacing a failed rear wheel bearing required SoA's involvement and (fortunately) led me to the discovery of this board.

Since then I've been going to Colonial, in Feasterville. Service much more prompt, not as much creature comfort; "shuttle" service amounts to driving you to your office in your own car. At least you don't have to rent as car as with Beans. (Aside: Whatever happened to loaners? Do you have to pay at least $50K for your new car, or have a serious screwup by the service department, to qualify for one?)

I am not familiar with the other dealers you mention except that Becker is well spoken of and may well get my next purchase. Yesterday (as I live close to NJ) I drove to Coleman in Ewing (Trenton), NJ to price out the 30K mile service. They quoted me $517 for an AWD car with AT. That seems a bit steep to me but I have nothing else to base it on - which is a question for the rest of the board: best price for 30K service in PA/NJ?

Ed

scirocco22

Marsh511-- I'm in WA and purchased a Forester last week after several months of shopping and negotiating. Back in June, a dealer here was also offering a flat no-haggle $300 over invoice on any '02 Forester. Several weeks later, they lowered it to $175. After doing the "pitting-one-dealer-against-the-other" tactic, I was able to negotiate it down to just slightly under invoice. This was on an S+ and they were in relatively short supply here especially in a 5-speed. In fact, I had to wait for one that was in the middle of transport which was listed as coming in for dealer inventory. This dealer did not have anywhere near fifty in stock so, IMO, yes, you should be able to negotiate a price substantially below invoice. I've been hearing in some parts of the country (possibly even in your area) that Foresters are being sold for several hundred dollars below invoice... for as you stated there is a 3% holdback (which was over $750 on my particular vehicle).

Here in the NW, prices seem to be on the high side for any new vehicle compared with other parts of the country but I'd assume that they'd be of comparable price in the Bay area for your area actually has a slightly higher cost-of-living than we do. So with that said, IMO, you should be able to 'do' somewhere right around invoice price when finally through with your negotiations.

If you have any specific questions, let me know. Good luck!

--'rocco

lark6

I was satisfied with $200 over, seems like the deals are getting better! Maybe it's because the Forester is due for a model change for '03? Or is it that the PNW is Subaru country, more so than Pennsylvania?

Anyway, give me something to shoot for in the future, whenever that may be.

Ed

scirocco22

Ed-- Yes, just give me the "Saturn" process of purchasing a car and I'd be extremely happy and a lot less frustrated when buying a car! It was quite grueling and time-consuming experience but I was able to get the price down to $75 below invoice but I was charged $767.42 for the 'performance gauge pack' which I figured they could have made up to $200 on. But if I wanted the OEM gauge pack, I found that other dealers were charging even more than that to install it afterwards, so all-in-all, I feel that I did get a pretty good deal.

Whew! ...buying two new cars this year has been quite an interesting experience. Hopefully, I won't have to go through this process again for awhile. But already, I'm starting to daydream about what my next new car will be. *lol, winks*

--'rocco

francophile

Pricing: The gamesmanship dealers exhibit when they play vehicle price against trade-in price is, IMO, dishonest and wrong. Still they play it for all it's worth. The only price I care about is the bottom line, and I walk into the dealer armed with my estimate of what my car is worth and what I want to pay for theirs, so when they play that game on me I can see it instantly.

Loaners: My little local dealer, Steve Moyer Subaru in Reading PA, offers loaners to folks who bought a car there. I got my Legacy GT from them for 1% over invoice.

Cheers,
-wdb

lark6

wdb: If I was still doing business in Reading that'd be a great help. When I first started with my current employer, the first assignment they gave me was with a healthcare provider in Reading. I commuted from lower Bucks to Reading every day for a month.

I agree about the shell game and while I believe I should've gotten about $500 more for the trade-in (a '93 Buick LeSabre - don't laugh, it's a long story) I have a feeling that the poor soul who ended up with that car would've had to put more than that into it. It was beginning to have a lot of electrical problems. HVAC would stop working intermittently and for varying periods of time (very bad in winter); ditto with the dash lighting and power locks. I put 2 water pumps and 2 alternators on the car in 4 years. These events make me hold my breath and cross my fingers that GM doesn't force FHI/Subaru to use its outsourcers.

Ed

p0926

'Rocco- "just give me the "Saturn" process of purchasing a car and I'd be extremely happy and a lot less frustrated when buying a car!"

Careful what you ask for! Sure you'll be a lot less frustrated. You'll also be a lot poorer! I guarantee you that there are plenty of dealers who will gladly sell you new car with no hassles if you're willing to pay MSRP (which is what you do when you buy a Saturn). The more you cut into their profit margin, the more you're going to have to haggle. I'd say if you were able to get a Subaru for less than invoice then you're very good at haggling. If the Saturn sales model ever takes over, you will no longer have the option to haggle and will have no choice but to line the dealer's pockets with more of your hard earned cash.

-Frank P.

paisan

Heck most dealers will jump up and down if you walk in and say I'll pay $300 under MSRP.

I usually say that when I want to test drive the cars

-mike

ateixeira

Look for local no-haggle dealers. There are at least two that I know of in the DC area. Check your local newspaper, too, since some advertise it.

Also, Carmax is now selling new cars at no-haggle prices. I don't think Subies are listed, though.

-juice

p0926

I think haggling is becoming a lost art in the U.S. While purchasing a car is one of the last remaining transactions where haggling is still possible, I'm afraid that even in this area, its days are numbered.

IMO, the reason behind the demise in haggling in today's society is because the typical U.S. consumer is uncomfortable with the whole process. Perhaps because they are afraid of being perceived as cheap or maybe they feel the amount saved doesn't justify the time spent. Regardless, you'd think that this would be good news for sellers since their profit margins are more reliable.

However, the downside for sellers is that they are now frequently forced to heavily discount their merchandise in order to move it (especially during periods of weak economic activity). Meanwhile, the more frequent the sales, the more likely consumers will become conditioned to not pay full retail but to wait until the next sale. So, in essence, by making the decision not to pay full retail, the buyer is effectively forcing the seller to lower his price in order to move his goods (gee, sounds like the definition of haggling).

Maybe it's because I'm cheap but I'd still rather have the leeway to haggle directly. It's kinda funny but in many countries, you're looked upon as being a simpleton if you willing pay the original asking price. Just my .02

-Frank P.

nygreg

than competition. I e-mail and call all dealers and play them against each other saving the ones I wish to buy from last. I then approach them with the numbers and what I want to spend and tell them I am ready to sign then if I get my price. I usually do. Of course, I am reasonable in the process.

Greg

ateixeira

I'm not sure haggling has ever truly been alive in the USA. You really only haggle over your car and your house, that's about it.

In Brazil, you haggle over just about everything you buy, all the time. Even in many retail stores.

The big catch in the US auto industry is that prices start high, and then drop as demand lessens. Throw in rebates and the transaction prices drop drastically. So what's fair? It depends a lot on when you bought it.

Saturn has this problem. They cannot lower prices, so they have to keep adding content instead. It would be hard to work around this problem, unless you changed your packaging of options every quarter or so.

-juice

miksmi

Frank, Please forgive me but I'm with 'rocco -- I don't like haggling. I embrace the Saturn pricing model because it levels the playing field, forcing dealers to differentiate themselves by, e.g., providing superior service. Purchase is a one-time affair; service is recurring.

juice makes a good point about Saturn's predicament when prices are falling but hey, that's not my problem. I thought Saturn's no haggle (flat) prices were lower than the typical haggle (MSRP less negotiated discount) prices, resulting in a better value. Is this not so? Not trying to argue, I don't the answer.

..Mike in MD

rsholland

ateixeira

Saturn's prices may be a bit lower than most competitors' MSRPs, but after haggling you'll find cheaper prices at Mazda or Mitsubishi, maybe about the same at Toyota and Honda.

It would be better if the dealer margin weren't so ridiculously high - about $2 grand per vehicle. Even when you include the holdback you'll usually find less than half that margin with other dealerships.

-juice

99gs

Some info for those that might be interested. Dealers in my area of the country are all selling left over '01 Beans around invoice even with the cash available in lieu of the financing deal. The exceptions that I've found are the DC and Chicago markets. MSRP $30.7, purchase price $26.5 without taxes.

A dealer not too far away was willing to sell an '02, if ordered, at invoice.

Jack - Ohio

ateixeira

Let's see, for the wife, a sedan costs a grand less than that, and a manual would subtract another $700 or so, putting it under $25k.

Now if Subaru only offered it for sale (H6, manual).

-juice

paisan

It's amazing. We (americans) are willing to pay a 95% markup on soda @ McDonalds, but we haggle on the price of a car, when they only are making less than 10-20% of profit on a car. Is the dealer not entitled to make a profit?

-mike

ateixeira

Nah, use the dollar menu and get a shake instead. Lower margins. ;-)

-juice

paisan

The cup (packaging) is the most expensive part of a fountain soda

-mike

ateixeira

Yeah, I worked at a Roy Rogers in high school and the manager said it was something like a penny for a large coke, a few pennies for the cup.

So drink milk shakes! :-)

-juice

kens

True, dealers make a lower percentage in profit on a vehicle, but it's really the absolute dollar amount that I think makes the difference. I believe the majority of Americans don't haggle much at dealerships even despite the recent availability of invoice pricing information. For every person that haggles down to invoice price, there must be five others the dealers are making a hefty profit on.

For the record, I actually enjoy haggling. It's a way of life in probably the majority of the world. The key is knowing your resistance point before walking in and remembering that you have the ultimate power of walking out.

Ken

ateixeira

Good point. For the same reason, they say you should overtip breakfast waitresses. 15% of $2.99 at Denny's isn't enough.

-juice

scirocco22

Ok, I realize what you folks are saying and yes, I know that I might be paying more for my car by the "Saturn method" but still, negotiating a price for a new car is so emotionally grueling for me. When I've bought houses/real estate, sure, there were a few offers and counter-offers involved but for some reason, those transactions didn't seem quite as frustating as the car buying process ...the high pressure tactics, the games that are played, etc. And another part of the reason for my frustration is exactly the point that Ken made: I want to get as good a price as the other guy! ...at least the Saturn 'way' puts everyone on an equal level. I understand that this has been the nature of the car business going back decades but why only the car business? I can just imagine what an emotional wreck I'd be if I did have to negotiate the price of that GrandSlam breakfast at Dennys or the shake at McDonalds! --are they making excess profits because we don't have to haggle prices with them?? *arghhhh*

--'rocco

rsholland

Buying a car should be as easy as going to the store to get a quart of milk.

Bob

scirocco22

ateixeira

At many places, it is. I'm sure if you look around there are a few no-haggle dealers near you.

What can you do? Vote with your dollars. Buy from them, and them only.

Ironically, though, I read in Automotive News that most buyers prefer the old fasioned way - haggling.

Not me.

-juice

paisan

If you go in and offer MSRP, you will never get a dealer that will haggle with you. Bam in and out, like a quart of milk.

Rocco: That "even footing" thing scares me. Sounds very socialist IMHO...

-mike

scirocco22

I bought my Forester at a so called "no-haggle" dealer. ...flat $175 over invoice for any Forester, take it or (supposedly) leave it. This is at the largest volume dealer in our area. Now, the majority of people would just have walked in and taken it. But after talking with others about the deals that they were making, I started checking other dealers thus pitting one against the other leading right back to dickering with the original dealer. *tsk* I don't know... I supposed that even when they say "no-haggling," there's always room for it!

Mike-- *lol* Yes, true, I could go in and pay-the-price, period. --and save myself a lot of headache. But I guess it boils down to not wanting to pay too much over what the "other guy" is paying. No, I don't want socialism *lol* but when we both go into Safeway to buy a carton of milk, we each pay the same price. Why should cars be any different? ...I don't know.

--'rocco

paisan

I always haggle with the milk retailer j/k

My dealer is not a no-haggle place, but basically he gives the best deal he can, and lets people walk, 5/10 times they come back cause the "let's make a deal" dealer tacked on a ton of fees to the price after haggling.

I generally am willing to pay about $1000-$2000 over true dealer cost of the vehicle. (Invoice-holdback-rebates)

-mike

scirocco22

I guess Safeway is a bad example ...they have a "club card" that entitles the holder to a discount or at least pay the price in their advertisements but I supposed you all see my point. *lol*

--'rocco

scirocco22

...and I realize that dealers have to make their profit too... just not excess profit!

--'rocco

armac13

Who defines what constitutes an "excess" profit?

Ross

paisan

If I give them $2000 profit on a $30K vehicle that works out to less than 10% profit. Out of this the dealer needs to pay:

Salesman
Electric Bill
Insurance (I'm sure quite high for a car dealer)
Dealer Plates (not cheap around $10K in the NY Area)
Rent
Phone
Advertising
Prep Shop
Computers
Cleaning
Snow removal
etc. etc.

Oh and of course a profit.

When you boil it down, it's not exactly a marvelous profit afterall. Like I said, the 99% profit made on the soda @ McDonalds doesn't bother anyone, but a 10% profit on a car and people scream bloody murder!

-mike

scirocco22

paisan

I don't work at a dealer, but I am a small business owner, so I empathize with them to some degree.

-mike

kate5000

make most of the money on trade-ins and service. Just read the forum "Real World Trade-In Values": the dealers there call new car sales a necessary evil. But they more than make up on trade-ins.

I'm for no-haggle but as Rocco said only if it's nation-wide for this make/model. I somehow feel bad paying more than another guy. Face it, many people really liked the Saturn sales model, it's just that Saturn cars were not as good as a competition.

paisan

Hmm I paid $1000 more than my buddy for my truck and his is identical to mine. But I had it about 6 months beforehand before there was a bigger rebate. Also got a quote for about $300 less from a competeting dealer but my dealer had done such a good job, I was like $300/48 months is almost nothing.

-mike

texsubaru

I'm one of those folks who hates haggling, BUT one of the reasons I swiftly ruled out a Saturn -- even though I kinda liked their L series sedans -- when I started car shopping a couple of years ago was that if I had to pay MSRP on the Saturn, it wouldn't be nearly as good a price as I could haggle for a comparably equipped Mazda 626, despite the Mazdas I was looking at having a higher MSRP to start off with. (Of course, I instead later ended up haggling my way into a used Subaru Forester, and the rest is history).

ateixeira

Kate is right. They'll offer $500 for your trade, then turn around and sell it for $3 grand.

The 626 is a funny example. We bought one in 1995 with a small rebate. The new ones have such big rebates that they are actually cheaper now. So that means everyone out there since then has paid less than I did.

But I got a fair price for the time period, and I'm OK with that. We could not have waited anyway.

Ideally, you should leave the dealership feeling like you were treated well, where the deal was mutually beneficial. Some people want to screw the dealer and not let him make his margin, and that's what paisan is talking about.

-juice

paisan

Yep, you are right, you trade in for $500 and they sell it for $3K.

But think of it this way...

You don't HAVE to trade in the car, you can always go out on your own and sell it, most people find that to be a hassle, and therefore are willing to "pay" the price of trading it in for the convience of not having to market, sell, and deal with the buyer. It's really a matter of convience. I usually drive my cars to the ground, so rarely ever trade them in, even if I did, my dealer KNOWS my driving style and probably wouldn't even take one of my cars as a trade-in!

-mike

ateixeira

That's what we do. We sold a car they offered $500 for, and got $2200 on the open market.

I'll try CarMax next time, also.

I also know your driving style and would not buy one of your cars! LOL!

-juice

paisan

Yep so far been there 2x, and both times got about $1000-$2000 over what dealers offered me. I don't know how they do it. I guess the Circuit City guys know their stuff though. (Carmax is owned by Circuit City)

-mike

bigfrank3

I love haggling! I don't want the same deal the other guy got, I want it for less! I even haggle at no-haggle places just for sport. My wife hates it so I get to do hers too!

When I bought my Forester the Sales Manager called me into her office and told me I new too much about the business, and offered me a job, on the spot! I thought this was a pretty good compliment, and told me I was holding up the "hagglers" end quite well.

You folks are right, the money is not in the selling of new vehicles. It is in the used/program/lease end, plus the financing kickbacks. A bunch of years back a General Manager friend of mine told me he had to make an average of $900 per car just to keep the doors open, and this was not a new high tech place. Since I was buying my vehicles at cost, someone was paying a bunch.

Dealers are always interested in new vehicle volume though. They get percs, monthly/yearly based on volume. Sometimes it is "money", but always it is allocation for the following year. Last year's higher volume dealers should have more "selection" this year. They also get preferential treatment with vehicles in short supply.

I always start my purchasing adventure with a statement like "you are not going to make a lot of money off of me, but I am perfectly willing to help your volume, if you make this easy". Kind of sets the tone for the fun to follow!

I never trade, and I always order. They can cut a better deal on an ordered vehicle because they don't have to pay "floor planning" for that vehicle. It comes in 1 door and right out another, so they never have to actually put up any money to pay for it.

I'm getting the itch... maybe I will stop by a dealer, any dealer, just to practice.

Regards,
Frank

1subydown1togo

Having lived both in Europe and Israel, where haggling is the third national sport after soccer and tax-evasion, I had to hone my haggling skills there...and I enjoy it...we still haggle when we go New Mexico to buy pottery on the pueblos, and I intend to do it when I am ready for the next Subie.

bat1161

I think that most manufacturers price the MSRP for the cars with the knowledge that there will be haggling. This way, when the dealer sells the car below sticker, the customer can feel that they beat him at his own game; at the same time the dealer realistically knew what they were willing to sell the car for starting out.

I have to admit the appeal of knowing before you go into a dealer what the car is going to cost you without arguing is great. I think that is where the Saturn and other no-haggle dealerships thrive. This way you also know all the fees up front- unlike the situation my niece found herself in.
Mark

bat1161

BTW -My niece took your advice and sent a letter to Hyundai USA, the dealer, the credit card bureau, better business bureau, consumer affairs, and the local news station. This after she spoke to the owner of the dealership who came up with a new slant to the problem- he said they already paid the sales tax on the car, even though she never signed the final sales contract, and that they can not get the $ back. Now we are just waiting to see what happened.

Thanks again to you and everyone else for the advice.

Mark

ateixeira

Poor quality sales, even! ;-)

-juice