Subaru Crew - Dealers & Pricing

bonnie_rick

us. Recommend a dealer, and tell us the deal you
got!

Bonnie Rick
Town Hall Community Manager, Edmunds.com

ateixeira

Welcome to the Subaru Crew's Dealers & Pricing topic.

I love my Subaru as much as the next guy, but even I have to admit dealers have not scored well in recent surveys (JD Power, Automotive News).

Let's share our experiences, and reward the dealers that are honest and treat us with respect by offering them our business.

Also, the "how much over invoice" question is a frequent one, varies by region, and changes constantly. How to keep up?

Let us know what you paid, where, and tell us about your experience. Also, share URLs to your favorite dealer to help potential Subaru owners out.

-juice

noclass

It truly matters what time of year your buying. I bought my 98 GT Legacy Wagon in Dec 97 for 175.00 below dealer invoice. Dealer up the road was 100.00 over invoice, and autobytell was 300.00 over invoice. I believe that March/April is also a good time to shop for your Subaru. The key is knowing exactly what you want and then finding the dealer of the week that will give you that. I always bring my own money and leave the trade-in at home. Anytime you get into trades or dealer money your going to pay more.
Garry at SCOA
www.subaruclub.com

ateixeira

I'll chime in to add data to the discussion.

I paid about $200 over invoice in August 1998 for a '98 Forester L. That was the first year for the Forester, when it was in hot demand. I visited three dealers, too, all in the DC suburbs.

College Park Subaru didn't have a 5 speed in stock. The dealer at the Auto Mall on Rt. 29 had a 5 speed but would not come close to the ad price I had for Farrish. Finally, I went to Farrish and bought mine.

However, I do not recommend them. Farrish sales staff kept playing with the price, very vague. I had to be firm to get them to commit to a set price.

I've taken a friend to Fitzgerald Subaru and he was treated much better, and got a better deal to boot (just under invoice for a '99 Outback last summer). They have a no-haggle policy, and post their prices openly on the web:

http://www.fitzgeraldautomall.com/carfind/search.asp

They're currently offering 2001 Foresters for $300-400 over, Imprezas for $100-300 over, and Legacy/Outbacks for $50-800 over invoice.

-juice

manny_bagnas

I purchased my 2000 Forester L in December of '99 for $600 _under_ invoice through carOrder.com. Prices through carOrder tend to fluctuate, and I don't think the prices are as good now as they were then. The best deal I was able to negotiate through carpoint, carsdirect, autobytel, and directly with dealers was $500 over invoice for a factory ordered vehicle.

The buying process through carOrder was not without its hiccups, but I'm very happy with the deal I got.

Manny

brownstone1

With the Forester coming up on being three years old a lot of the original Forester's (98's) are just coming off a lease and are being sold, mine was 23K CDN (15500 US$) with 60K on it (37000 miles) I bought mine in Calgary at Calgary Subaru you can view their used vehicles on the web at http://www.globemegawheels.com/cgi-bin/mw_gendealerinv.asp?ID=2708

With the low CDN dollar and the proximity to the US border americans can probably get a pretty good deal

ateixeira

Ed: I don't think you got a bad deal. Demand in NJ may be higher than other places, and what's important is that you were treated with respect.

Congrats on the purchase.

Manny: that's unreal. I think you were one of the lucky few to get an amazing deal from carOrder.com when they were trying to get their foot in the door.

-juice

edabramson

Thanks. I appreciate it. Not only are you quite knowledgeable but a class guy in addition. It appears the choices for spokespersons in this forum are right on.

proulo

I went to a dealer with the invoice prices under my arm. The salesman said you know the prices so give me $100 over invoice. I got a 2001 L with auto trans (no other options) for $19927. I went after market and had remote start and keyless entry for $224. Also if you join American Canoe Association before you get your Subaru you can get the first three years service free (a $545 value)

Phil

rp6

Hello everybody...great board, great persons. Mind if i come in?

Like Juice, I live in the Washington DC Metro area. Last month, after looking at several vehicles (e.g, Honda CRV, Toyota RAV 4, Town & Country AWD), my wife and I decided to go look at a Subaru Forester. I checked Edmunds for invoice pricing and looked at a few websites (Carsdirect, Greenlight) to get an idea on the "going price" for the car. I went to a local dealer that also sells Jeep and Kia and was underwhelmed by the tactics of the salesperson. They seemed mildy interested in dealing, not very serious. I kinda felt like I should take a shower when I got home.

I then called Fitzgerald Auto Mall and spoke to a very nice person ("Marc") who offered me by telephone to sell a 2001 L Forester at dead invoice. Unfortunately , they did not have one in stock and I needed to take delivery immediately. I phoned Stohlman VW/Subaru in Tysons Corner Virginia and spoke with their internet manager "Tom G" who offered to meet Fitzgeralds' dead invoice price. I checked Stohlman's inventory on the web and found that they had an Arctic White 2001 Forester S Automatic in stock without any additional options. This was exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately, when my wife and I decided to purchase the car and went back to the dealership, Tom was out so I dealt with another person who didn't seem overly interested in the deal; I felt as though I was an inconvenience but he was nonetheless willing to make good on Tom's price for the 2001 S at the dead invoice price of $21,990 plus $125 processing fee. (I don't necessarily mean to judge the salesperson who sold me the car, someone else might get along with him great; he and I just did not hit it off. I only wish that Tom would have been there to complete the deal.)

We are happy with the car and would deal with Tom G at Stohlman anytime and highly recommend him. (I would not deal with the person who sold me the car again.) The dealership is incredibly busy on Saturdays and Sundays, but it appears that they are willing to deal fairly and are honest and trustworthy.

I had the windows tinted at LA Tint. The car is really beautiful. My wife loves it. (But what does she know, she's only a girl.)

Regarding a favorite link, I really like www.dealernet.com. Using the drop-down menu, you can search for dealer links in a 200 mile radius of your home. Even better, you can easily get a list of the inventory of dealers within a 200 mile radius of your home.

So Juice, if you're ever in the Tysons Corner area and see that white 2001 Forster S with tinted windows and a happy, smiling driver, please wave.

See ya.

fayes

Does anyone have experience with Subaru dealers (sales or service) in Lincoln or Omaha, Nebraska? I'm thinking about getting a 2001 Forester, and I'd like to find a good dealer. I especially want to find a good service department (one that doesn't act like the customer is a big inconvenience to them).

Thanks,

Faye

ateixeira

Phil: sounds like a good buying experience. Do you have the link to the ACA handy? Anyone?

There was a hilarious story over in the Forester topic where one of the guys joined and then wondered out loud if he should get a canoe! Cracked me up...

Richard: bargain, dude! I'll keep my eyes peeled.

Consider yourselves lucky, though. I visited Fitzgerald today and the only S they had sold while I was there.

The Premium package has the sweetest, largest moonroof I've seen IN MY LIFE! It's MASSIVE! At least twice as big as my 15"x30" aftermarket roof. It serves the front and rear passengers, on both sides!

Faye: hang in there. Dealers are independent, so try more than one. Hopefully someone near you can make a recommendation.

-juice

rp6

I just read my post and realized that I mentioned the wrong color for my 2001 Forester..it is Aspen White not Arctic White. Whoops!

Since my car came without any options other than automatic transmission, I have been looking to add some things. I found www.subaruparts.com which has the best prices around.

I'm considering the rear cargo cover, rear cargo net, auto dimming mirror, woodgrain trim package and the tweeter package. Any suggestions on the level of difficulty for the installation of the auto dimming mirror, tweeter package and trim package? Any suggestions on other worth while options that I can self-install.

Regarding the Forester, I have owned it a little short of a month now, have put about 900 miles on it, and find it flawless. Lots of fun to drive and very sure-footed. A co-worker of mine saw me drive in the parking garage at work and commented on how beautiful the car is. (I must admit that the rear tinted windows contrasting with the white car along with the alloy wheels make the car very attractive.) First time I have ever owned a vehicle that someone told me it was beautiful.

Hey Juice, any local rallys or shows planned that would be worth while to attend. What about local Sube clubs?

Thanks again for a really fun site. I gotta go and read the other Subaru Crew boards.

proulo

The address for the American Canoe Association is
www.acanet.org. When you join you get a flyer with the details for the 3 year maintenance package.

Phil

juliey

We live in the St. Paul / Minneapolis, MN area - lots of Legacy & Outbacks around but few Foresters. Visited the 3 dealers in the metro area, with invoice data in hand. Best deal we could swing was $1000 over invoice on a 2001 S with premium (HAD to have that moonroof!), premium sound pkg.3, premium pkg 4, and auto. Not as good a deal as people here seem to have been getting - but the S Premiums are hot. Dealerships were full of people swooning over the moonroof.

Pick up the car Mon.- can't wait!

texsubaru

I'm haggling over a '98 Forester L, with just over 28,000 miles on it. Since it only has a about 8,000 miles left on the original warranty, I'm trying to get the dealer to toss in a factory-backed Subaru extended warranty as part of the deal. Does anybody have an opinion on whether the extended warranty is really worth it and, if so, how much dollar-value should it have in the negotiations (I was mentally calculating it as being about a $500 bargaining chip)?

walterw2

Now that my taxes are in I have to get down to business buying a 2000 Legacy Outback with automatic and cold weather package. Autobytel hooked me up with a dealer in MA, Carmart. First I got an e-mail from the Mgr. Then one from a salesman and had a long conversation on the phone. They could do $200 under invoice (which was a higher invoice than Edmunds) if I bought in 48 hours, one car that was available. When I said I wanted white or wintergreen I was told he would look at what was coming in and get back to me. A few days later another salesman e-mailed me to call. He started the whole thing from scratch and then decided that he didn't have a car for me??
Following information on this site, I e-mailed a few dealers. They respond that they will respond and then don't. I visited two dealers Friday and they were way above invoice and one was over $400 more than the other and insisted it was his best price. I would like to sell my 96 Legacy Outback 2.5, rather than trade. Any ideas about the best way to do that? Are Autobytel classified ads any good? The Internet Manager of the Dealer I bought my car from, Monadnock Subaru, quoted me a very high price.This is why I HATE to buy a car. I don't mind traveling 150 miles from my home in SW New Hampshire to buy my car.Any HELP would be appreciated.

ateixeira

I suggest an ad in the biggest local paper. You'll sell quicker if it's a large, local audience, plus MA is a good place to sell an AWD vehicle (sell it before it gets warm!).

Richard - by now you've probably found the Events topic.

Phil: thanks for the link.

Julie: don't sweat the price, those are indeed hard to find. The price for the moonroof is a total bargain. I believe it's $1000 plus includes other options, right? Less than that at invoice. A power roof alone (aftermarket) is about that price, and no way it's that big. (imagine my jealousy!)

tex: the dealer pays very little for that warranty. You can follow Edmunds links from their pricing page to get quotes for extended warranties, then compare those to what the dealer offers (you could always buy it yourself later). Price will vary with the length, a lot I'm sure. The powertrain is covered for 60k miles, which is reassuring.

-juice

mwwst

Anyone purchase a 2000 Legacy GT wagon in the Boston area recently? I am looking for what people have paid recently and what dealers you would recommend.

Thanks

ateixeira

For extended warranty quotes:

http://edmunds.com/partners/1source/index.html

Though I personally don't find them worth the cost.

-juice

soob2k01

We just bought a 2K01 Forester S with most of the bells and whistles (premium package). But it wasn't easy here in LA! We used the dealer locater on the Subaru website only to find an incredibly poor selection of 2001 Foresters - especially the premium S package. Another hassle is that the dealers were those multi-brand types. You know, selling Mazdas, Suzukis, Jeeps, Hummers, Toyotas, Fords, oh and, way out in back behind the Parts department - the two Subarau L models! The salesmen were pretty ignorant about Soobs having to know about all twenty other brand vehicles on the lot.

The best, comparably huge, selection is at Santa Monica Subaru. Our Forester had just come off the delivery truck that day! The salesman there was very knowledgable about the vehicle. The money man gave us a good deal. Then came the problem.

We had been warned about the finance guy. I don't think I should mention any names (am I supposed to?) He was a real "character" (bluster and attitude). When it came to paper signing time he had added $50 to the price previously agreed upon. My husband caught it right away. It was corrected, but there was no apology. Then he berated us for not wanting the extended service contract. (As he had also done to the folks who had warned us about him.)

Just a warning from our personal experience.

ateixeira

Hey, this is a public forum, feel free to name names.

That makes our voices more powerful.

-juice

PS Unfortunately, due to economies of scale, the huge multi-brand dealers are all too common. None of the dealers I've seen is exclusively Subaru.

manny_bagnas

soob2k01,

Sorry to hear about your experience with "the finance guy." I purchased my '00 Forester through carOrder.com, and picked it up from Irvine Subaru. It was actually Irvine Subaru's finance guy that did the vehicle check and customer walk through. Zero pressure to get an extended warranty, and they only sell Subies, so they had a pretty large selection of vehicles.

If they were closer, I'd definitely take my Forester back there for service. The closest dealer to my location (San Diego) is one of those multi-manufacturer dealer (Chrysler, Plymouth, Isuzu, and-oh-yeah-by-the-way, Subaru). I've heard mixed things about their service department; but I figure I'll give them a try with the 3,000 mile service. It's just an oil change and tire rotation -- should be pretty hard to screw that up (knock on wood). )

Manny

skipd

I was wondering....does anyone know if you can negotiate a financing rate when purchasing a new Soob? I know the financing would come from Subaru, but are the dealers able to give you different financing rates or does everyone get the same rate?

Thanks for the info.

Skip

tincup47

Skip- you can get financing from any source you want, local bank, credit union, or finance company. Also most dealers have agreements with local banks along with financing through the manufacturer's credit firm. You should be able to negotiate a finance rate

ateixeira

I agree. Get a quote from your bank or credit union, then ask them to match or beat it. You should be able to get 8% or even better.

I took my dad to Fitzgerald over the weekend, to look at Foresters. Oddly, he though mine was small but insisted the 2001 he saw at the mall was bigger (ok, if you insist...).

They ended up falling in love with the Outback Limited. He almost bought it, but decided to wait until July when he actually moves here (he was just visiting).

Price was $25.7k for an automatic with CD changer and several other small options in Winestone Pearl, which was $200 over invoice. Though they do have internet pricing at $100 under invoice, my dad wanted the free service loaner and discounts they offer with the regular deal.

So he's planning on another trip to the same dealer. The pricing was right on the window, no pressure and no hassles. He's dead-set on going back to the same place.

My cousin has one, so it would be the 3rd Soob in the family

-juice

fmgarcia

Juice,

Just out of curiosity, who was the salesperson that you talked to? Too bad that Dolly is no longer with them (moved to Florida).

Their Sales Manager, Marc Painter, is another good guy to talk to or deal with.

Great to have your dad as a Soobie owner!

Francisco

ateixeira

I forget his name. He was a part-timer, with dread-locks. Nice enough, but didn't know half what I did about it. Wonder if he replaced Dolly?

They have another guy there, but he selling the only Forester S Premium they had in stock (2nd time I visit when that was happening).

Good to have Marc's name, but I doubt we'll need it. The staff were curteous and put absolutely zero pressure on him. Price was set and up-front.

He even agreed that my dad should wait until he moves here to buy it. Dad didn't want to leave a new car abandoned for months, so I KINDLY offered to "care" for it while he was gone. Nope, darn.

-juice

rsholland

Fitzgeralds is where we got our Soob back in '96.

Bob

miksmi

Nice enough, but didn't know half what I did about it.

Um, not to be critical, but doesn't that statement describe 99.99% of the world population, much less a poor salesperson?

tincup47

After 20 years in the automotive business at the dealer level, I have found that most, not all, salesman know only enough about the product to sell the vehicles. I have known very few salesmen who were enthusiasts. I know there will be salesmen that disagree, but as an enthusiast who has worked at several dealerships, I stand by my experience.
tincup

ateixeira

he he, thanks.

He was able to find the strap you have to lift to fold the rear seat bottom forward. Once we had that, it was easy. I still found removing the headrests a pain (my Forester you just pull the knob and plop it down flat, in two seconds flat).

On the other hand, the rear seat is downright luxurious in the OB Ltd. Leather is sweet, the moonroof opens in the right place. It's comfortable, with plenty of room for me and my 16 year old sister to spread out, even with a baby seat between us.

Every time I see it, I'm impressed with the cargo compartment. It's truly huge and useful. Especially the width, it's impressive. It may not be as tall as mine, but that's it. Tie downs are everywhere. Liked the child seat tether anchors, the new cup holders, the side air bags.

Which, by the way, are ergonomic touches Mike taught me to look for. I used to go to the dealer and drive it hard, and then buy it, before even noticing much else!

-juice

skipd

Thanks on the info. about financing rates. It is very much appreciated. I have another question concerning a regional advertising fee a dealer is telling me is part of the invoice price. A dealer Fred Beans in Doylestown, PA) offered me invoice for a 2001 Forester L via Email. The price they quoted was $20,169. I did the math on the pricing myself and came up with $20,069. I emailed the dealer with this info. and their response was that I was right on the money except that I forgot to add $100 for the regional advertising fee. Is this fee legitimate?

I live in the SE PA area. The two dealers that have been most willing to deal via Email have been Fred Beans in Doylestown, PA and Becker Subaru in Allentown, PA. Becker offered me invoice as well, but I don't remember them mentioning this advertising fee. I will have to Email Becker again to see if they are adding this fee as well.

Again, thanks for the info.

Talk to you later,

Skip

tj796

I am looking for information/advice on a 2000 subaru legacy outback limited sedan I am considering purchasing. It is listed at $9,195 and has 54,000 miles on it. I know that is a lot of miles, but the price! It is too new for edmunds, kbb or nada to have used prices on. Any thoughts on this deal?

tj796

francophile

Becker Subaru has a fellow who participates on the Subaru Usenet discussion lists, something I consider to be a huge plus. I don't know anything about Beans.

The advertising fee is legitimate; nevertheless you should be able to get it reduced or removed, especially if you have a competing offer that does not included it.

I bought my Legacy GT sedan for 1% over invoice, and when all the taxes, tags, etcetera were thrown in I still paid less IN TOTAL than the sticker price. That's a good enough deal for me.

Cheers,
WDB

ateixeira

Skip: if you really want to know, you can e-mail aardvarkautomotive@yahoo.com and for $10 he'll send you a full, regional pricing report. He did mention such fees in passing, though I'm not sure that all dealers add them explicitly to your bottom line. He's an insider, though I'm not sure exactly how he gets his info.

TJ: that price is way, way low. Consider the car new, and deduct, say 15 cents per mile or so, and you still get $8,100 off. Then knock off 10% a new car loses immediately. It's still worth about 15 grand.

I'd have it checked thoroughly, though. It may have been abused in races or off-road. Also check for body damage and frame repair.

-juice

barresa11

I absolutely agree with your statement. I began noticing two things at a very early age. One, is that I live, eat, and breathe cars. Two, I almost always know more than a salesperson about the cars they are selling (this began at 4 years of age). This has nothing to do with how long they have been selling them either. I personally found it hard to be an auto enthusiast and a successful cars salesperson. So now I just help friends out with research and advice regarding their car purchases.

Stephen

davebuck

Me again, another e-mail for the dealer in Cincinatti (Tracy Leary) is SubaruChic@autobytel.net

A few weeks after I purchaced the outback I decided I wanted the extended warranty (7 yr or 100,000 miles w/no deductable). Her dealership gave it to me at $200 over invoice. The best my local dealership would do was $600 over invoice!

grinch3

Just bought a 2001, standard transmission, premium S black monotone, loaded (air filter, autodimming mirror w/compass, armrest extension, luggage cover, tail pipe cover, rear cargo net, security upgrade, wood grain trim, and premium sound system). Also added leather (dealer installed). Got everything I wanted at 1% over invoice. Only thing I couldn't get out of was a $150 advertising fee I was told is from Subaru, not the dealer. Hated to pay for advertising, but this was the best deal I could strike. I'm picking up the car day after tomorrow, can't wait!
I've been in Houston and bought the car here, but will be driving it to Massachusetts next week. There was no way the New England dealers could touch the deal I got here.

ateixeira

Talk about commitment! That's great, congrats! Have a nice drive home (how many days?).

Though Texan Subaru fans are going to be upset that you got one of the few ones allocated to that area

You're probably right, though. In NE Soobs are a hot commodity. Even here in DC every Premium I see sells in front of my very eyes (twice already).

-juice

PS I have only seen them in person in white, not black yet.

tincup47

juice- I saw one of the black premiums at Annapolis Subaru, it was there for 2 weeks. IMHO the white one looks the best in the premiums, looks like a much higher priced vehicle. We ended up getting our Forester through Annapolis, very nice experience, no pressure to buy add-ons or extended warranty. Could have probably beat them down further on price, but I felt we got a fair deal. They even marked the vehicle as sold and put in the leather trim without asking for a deposit.

ateixeira

I like the white too.

Sounds like your experience was much better than mine. Farrish Subaru pulled the old bait and switch, and though I got a good price the experience was painful.

They took a deposit, but didn't cash the check, which I found odd.

-juice

torek

Apparently this is often required by state law. I got the impression this was the case in California, at least. States often model their laws off other states' laws, and un-cashed deposit checks seem to be de rigueur, so I simply extrapolate. :-)

Chris

car4labs

I have been looking for an Outback Ltd wagon in the 5-speed manual transmission which is allegedly the standard. I've checked the 6 closest dealers to Birmingham and all I find on lots are the auto transmission. Of course the auto is nice in bumper to bumper city traffic, but I still relish the 5-speed especially going over the mountains or into long winding curves. Is there anyone out there with a 5-speed? If so, what do you think about it and did you have to special order it? Any advice on how to buy this car and is it more diificult to get a fair price when ordering a car? I appreciate any advice I can get.

Jeff

miksmi

Hi Jeff, I'm a 5-speed owner (00 Legacy GT wagon). My wife and I didn't consider 4EAT (automatic) even though we live in a burb of Washington, DC (2nd worst traffic in the US, thank you very much). We just like stick shift; everyone's taste is diffent and a stick might not make sense if your commute involves a lot of traffic jams. Some have said the 5MT has a "notchy" feel to it. All I know is that it's fun to shift!

We could have bought off the lot but we ordered to get exactly what we wanted. Click on my profile (the "miksmi" in the subject of this post) to read about the ordering process.

..Mike

gearhead4

car4labs,

I have a Legacy L Sedan with the 5 speed.

I did have some trouble adjusting to the shift gate for quick 5th to 4th downshifts, but now that we have had 3000 miles together, the Legacy and I understand each other.

I am very pleased. The 5 speed offers:
improved performance
better highwqay MPG
$800 savings in initial cost...
plus I enjoy working the gears.

I did test drive the 4EAT automatic and it is a very capable automatic. So, if I go for a walk in a minefield someday and loose a leg, I could be happy with the automatic.

But for right now, everything works, so I enjoy the 5 speed.

gearhead4

ateixeira

Walter: congrats. It would be easier to sell at the beginning of snow season, but I'd put an ad for it in the biggest local paper for a weekend, and it'll probably sell within a week. Oh, wait, your in NH? It'll sell within days if the price is fair.

The 5 speed in my Forester is similar (it's actually improved since then). The clutch pedal is very light and easy modulated. The shifter gives good feedback so you know when it's in gear, and what gear you're in. Matching revs for downshifts makes for smooth, fun driving.

There is a nice dead pedal in the Forester, not sure if the Legacy has one too (Mike?), but I imagine it does. No regrets here.

However, if you must drive in traffic a lot, and conduct business in your car, or you have lots of young kids distracting you, the auto is quite efficient and offers a very modern AWD system. The engine's torque characteristics (lots, low down) also mate well to either tranny.

Good luck.

-juice

hammersley

Didn't buy it new, and it certainly isn't new, but my 97OB M5 is a hoot to drive! Way more fun than an AT, and a lot easier than the only other clutch in my fleet(69 PowerWagon). Salesman told me that only 10% of the Outback production was manual trannies - makes them a bit hard to find. Our primary purpose for the M5 was for towing behind an RV, but the bonus fun factor can't be overlooked! Be even more fun once I trash the factory radio!

-Paul

francophile

hammersly, your comment about towing your Subie behind an RV reminded me of a question. My folks have an RV and they pull a car behind it. My dad asked me if a Subaru could be flat-towed, and I didn't know the answer. Can they? Auto, manual trans? Any suggestions?

Thanks,
WDB

torek

Manual can be towed (with all 4 wheels on the ground and in neutral), auto cannot.

I still wonder, though, if you have an RV / motor-home, why would you tow a Subaru? I would probably get one of those little Jeeps for serious off-road driving, and tow that, and/or a super econo-box like the Geo Metro, or maybe now one of the hybrid 70 mpg cars. Take the RV when you need lots of hauling, take the Insight (or whatever) when you want to save $ on gas. :-)

ateixeira

I think the idea is that the Subaru is about half way between that Jeep (capable but guzzles gas) and the economy car (miserly but useless off pavement).

I believe with the auto there is a fuse you can pull for towing that makes it FWD, but you need to lift the front wheels off the ground.

-juice