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Subaru Crew - General Maintenance & Repair

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  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Sorry to hear about this -- getting stranded with a new car would make me very angry too. I understand your frustration. As Kate suggested, definitely let Subaru handle this if possible.

    I know it doesn't help much, but injectors are made by a handful of companies (Bosch, Siemens, and a few others), and similar problems could easily happen on any car using these injectors unless it's something specific about using the injectors in your Subaru that is causing the failure (ie, some other problem in the fuel system). In any case, it's rare to see multiple injectors independently fail like that. The dealer should be bending over backwards to help you out.

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That sucks, Ash.

    Your problem is rare; I'd never heard of fuel injector failure before.

    I'm sure you know Subaru scores well overall, but there's nothing like personal experience.

    I don't know about the thousands less comment, though. At least not with AWD.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Ash -- Sorry to hear about your woes. Like juice wrote, I've never heard of an injector failure before. It also never helps when the local dealer is not customer service oriented. Maybe Patti can help here?

    Jerry & Tony -- Just a thought out of the blue, but you may want to check to see if the cross bars were installed the right way. The factory cross bars have a slight tear drop like cross section where the wider end should face forward. Sometimes the dealer will install them backwards causing the bars to not be aerodynamic.

    Ken
  • hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    Frank P, Craig: I've seen the oil at 2500-3000 miles - blecch! I do a lot of short trip, stop-and-go driving, so I don't feel bad about the more frequent changes, and I only drive about 10k miles/yr. I *always* change the filter at every change - no sense in leaving a filter full of dirty oil to contaminate the clean load!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Paul - in that case you should stick to your more stringent schedule. As they say, YMMV.

    I'll ask Patti if she has a counterpart in Canada, since she works for SoA. Or perhaps she has jurisdiction over Canada?

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I've seen the oil at 2500-3000miles - blecch!

    The oil does not remotely begin to loose its lubricating properties when it changes from gold (or whatever color it starts out as) to black. That's a normal result of being in the crankcase.

    -Colin
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    On my previous ride (97 Chevy K1500) I had three injectors go during the first 6 months of ownership. Dealer would replace the faulty injector and it would be fine for a while, then it'd happen again. After that, it was fine until I traded it back in July for our OB.

    The only explanation the dealer could give was that it was a defective set of injectors. It seemed to be kind of isolated to '97 GM's with the 350 V8 since I remember another similar truck and a full size van in for the same thing during one of my injector failures.

    So, I know it's a P-T-A when things like this go wrong. Hopefully, Patty/SOA can help you get the service you deserve. Don't blame Subaru though! Maybe you could try another dealership in your area for service?

    -bb
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd also ask that ALL the injectors be replaced. Must have been a bad batch.

    -juice
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Unfortunately Patti/SOA are likely not going to be much help for me -- because I'm in Canada. Trying to get a hold of Subaru customer service from prior experience is not something as easy as a phone call unfortunately.

    I've asked that all fuel injectors be replaced, but Subaru Canada's stance is they only replace them as they break.

    The worst part about all this, is I really (did) like my OB.

    -- ash
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Ash, I'm bummed to hear about your continued fuel injector problems.. Thanks for sharing them with the rest of us; we need to know the good and the bad about our rides. It's disheartening when a good product is represented by poor customer service.

    Lemons happen in any line of vehicles, even in Hondas and Toyotas.

    Kate, I learned how true that statement can be. I've read and heard the Toyotas are reliable -- which is why my neighbor bought one. One of the cylinder walls became scored and his Corolla (5 y.o.?) now burns oil. The Toyota dealer pulled the engine apart twice, charged $2,000, and still hasn't fixed the problem. Could be a poor dealer, could be a lemon engine, who knows. Unfortunately for Toyota, it doesn't matter -- he'll never buy another.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mike: you know what's funny? My dad's Camry, the one that went up in flames, was replaced by another Camry!

    Go figure. Some people are VERY forgiving, I guess.

    -juice

    PS Too bad I never dated anyone like that ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ash: Patti asks that you enter in contact with her directly, it's PMickel@subaru.com.

    She needs your VIN and a brief history of the problems.

    She said she doesn't really have a counterpart north of the border, but she'll try to stir things up for you anyway.

    -juice
  • tlimatlima Member Posts: 124
    Jerry: Try what Juice says, and remove them to see if the noise goes away. Unless it is really annoying, put the bars back on...at least you know where the noise is coming from.

    Kens: My crossbars have arrows on them (decals actually) that say "Front" and point towards the front of the car. I'll check the bars, though, in case the decals (and therefore the bars) were put on backwards.

    Anyway, it seems the vibration I had at 65mph was a combination of things. The dealer re-balanced the wheels and things are much smoother now. I actually was asked to take the master mechanic for a ride to show him the vibration. There is still some vibration, but it probably is the "choppiness" than Colin described, since it is not speed dependant.

    Juice: I installed the fender flares today using Subaru and your instructions. Things went very smoothly. Pulling back the tape strip first is the key. Thanks for emphasizing this.

    You can tell when people are back at work...the posting count here goes way up. :)

    -Tony
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tony: glad my tips helped.

    That's one thing I'd ask Subaru for - MUCH better instructions for their accessories! Please!

    Did you notice there are virtually NO written instructions, just photos? It's trial and error for anyone without the Crew as a resource.

    -juice
  • snapp3of3snapp3of3 Member Posts: 3
    Hi, I'm a new Subaru owner and new member to this group. First, I'd like to thank the group as I did a lot of researching through here before settling on a '98 Subaru S model.

    My question involves warranties, and what they cover. My Forester has 54,000 miles on it, so I didn't expect to be offered any warranty. I ended up purchasing a 3-year, 36,000 "Advantage Plus" warranty from my dealership for $1500. Upon reading through the contract, though, I have real concerns about what exactly the warranty covers. There seem to be quite a lot of exceptions listed. The salesman I dealt with assured me that "most everything" was covered, and when I brought up specifics - timing belt, exhaust system, brakes, heated seats - he said they were covered. The contract seems to have language to the contrary, and I don't want to just take the salesman's word for it.

    Can anybody give me some insight on what the warranty I bought DOES cover? Also, my car still falls under the 5-year, 60,000-mile powertrain warranty (at least for another 6000 miles anyway); if the 3-year warranty doesn't cover say the timing belt, should I have it done under the powertrain warranty at 59,500 miles?

    Thanks for any help you can offer.

    Dan
  • qsubaruqsubaru Member Posts: 37
    Dan....Sorry I've never heard of the "Advantage
    Plus" warranty. Did your dealer offer you the
    Subaru Added Security warranty?? You could have purchased that plan for less money. And you would have received a really good extended warranty plan in the process.
    The timing belt is not covered under your powertrain warranty. That is considered a maintenance item. You have the 2.5 engine, and recommended replacement is 100K.
    I suggest you call the company and get your answers, if they include too much small print, I'd demand a refund. It appears to me that the salesman gets a kickback for selling that warranty plan.

    Darlene
  • tlimatlima Member Posts: 124
    Yeah, just some obscure photos. Plus, once those babies are stuck, they're stuck for good. You only get one chance to position them.

    The armrest extension instructions, however, were really good. Go figure

    -Tony
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    While I'm no expert, I'd say the brakes, timing belt and heated seats are not covered. (maybe the heated seats, but definitely not the brakes and timing belt)

    Basically any item considered wear and tear isn't included in even a bumper to bumper warranty. (bulbs, wipers, brakes, belts, tires, etc. etc.)

    Personally I would have gone for a factory extended warranty, cause then you can always complain to the manufacturer about any problems, whereas with a 3rd party you are stuck complaining to some insurance company.

    -mike
  • snapp3of3snapp3of3 Member Posts: 3
    Thanks for the advice, Darlene and Mike. Looking at the service contract now, I see it's with an insurance agency out of Illinois. My next step I guess is to speak with another dealership in this area (one that's closer to my home), since they would be the ones I'd most likely go to for service, and ask them what is covered. My service contract has specific literature on how to cancel the contract for a full refund, so I may be doing just that.

    Again, thanks for the help.

    -Dan
  • iscottsiscotts Member Posts: 28
    Sounds like you should cancel it, be grateful for the get-out-clause, and either skip the warranty or negotiate a decent genuine Subaru warranty.
  • hciaffahciaffa Member Posts: 454
    Per your request from post number 742, I need to have your e-mail address so I can describe to your our Forester problems and your fax number to send you our mpg mileage log. Again our Forester was in for service and the same problems persist.
  • kuttkutt Member Posts: 13
    Juice,
    Changed my oil for the first time on my 2001 Forester the other day per your splendid instructions. One question though, I noticed in the owners manual they mention replacing the drain plug seal ring or some sort of washer??? I did not notice anything removable on the drain plug itself. Also, I put in a hair too much oil because the reading I got after the first start up was apparently incorrectly reflecting low. Should I follow the replacement amount per the owner's manual exactly (4.2 quarts I believe)? I put in about 4.5 quarts. Is it necessary to drain that excess out?
    Thanks in advance to all for any input.
    Greg
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Greg- I'll take a stab at answering your questions since Juice is out of town this week.

    There's a washer that's suppose to go on the drain plug. However, I seem to recall seeing in an earlier post that they don't come that way from the factory. But the washer is included with with the Subaru OE replacement filter (which you can get from Darlene at Qsubaru for $4.00). IMO, it isn't a "must have" part cause anyone who gets their oil changed at a Jiffy Lube type place won't get one either. I wouldn't worry about it as long as you don't see any traces of oil leaking onto the ground. An extra 3/10 of a quart shouldn't hurt anything either. Consider both as lessons learned for the next time you change your oil.

    -Frank P.
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Greg, When I changed the GT's oil for the first time, it had no gasket (though I looked and looked for it!). I got some of the OE oil filters from Darlene at QSubaru (thanks!) and as Frank said, they have the copper gasket and it's not a big deal if it's not there. A gasket did help my 82 Nissan Stanza from leaking as it got older. Since getting the GT in January, I started changing my own oil again and I noticed that my mechanic had put a washer on my 93 Civic even though it didn't have one before. His was fabricated using a metallic washer and a dab of (I'm guessing) valve gasket cement.

    If you see juice's oil change page, he's found that 4.5 quarts is just the right amount (at least on the 2.5l Phase I engine; you've got the 2.5l Phase II). Even if not, .3 quart wouldn't be much of an overfill.

    Frank, thanks for filling in for juice.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • mvcorneliusmvcornelius Member Posts: 11
    How do you remove the engine air filter on a 2000 OB? I snapped open the 3 snaps but then the 2 halves are both bolted down. What's the deal?
  • hciaffahciaffa Member Posts: 454
    Ok Subaru Team member you state to send fax to Tom or myself. OK who is myself so I can put it to the attention of either one of you. Thanks.
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Hi Hugo, subaru_team is Patti Mickel. I hope she or Tom can help resolve your problem.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • kuttkutt Member Posts: 13
    Thanks for the input on the Oil plug gasket etc.
    As always, it is much appreciated.
    Greg
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    Greg, You're welcome. Glad to help in any way. If you haven't noticed, I'm stalking you from Crew topic to topic. ;)

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Beats me, dude.

    I read the page you linked and it didn't seem to have much flow, almost like I was paraphrased or piecemealed from some other source.

    You could certainly try resetting the ECU... sorry if you posted it already, but what cylinders had the failed injectors? What did the spark plugs look like, especially the one(s) from the cylinders with bad injectors?

    -Colin
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    I agree the page didn't seem to flow at first - but then I read it again. A couple of the sections are above my level, but it actually is readable, and I learned alot. The single line sentences are section headers - once you figure out the article is actually a bunch of sections, I'm sure you could read it - and it's got some interesting stuff in it. I sure learned alot about single-port fuel injectors and why cylinders misfire.

    Cylinder 1,3 had failed injectors. Spark plugs looked fine, as did the wires.

    It just confuses me that the injectors would start working correctly once the RPMs were above idle, and enough voltage and current would get to them.

    -- ash
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I don't know if this helps or not, but I thought injectors were basically on/off valves (that click open with 12V DC). The amount of fuel delivered by an injector would be a function of how long it stayed open and the amount of pressure in the fuel system. These factors should be controlled by the ECU. If the problem is obviously related to the RPM band of the engine, I am inclined to agree with your hypothesis that the ECU (or something else) is at fault and not necessarily the injector. Do you know if the "failed" injectors were staying open or closed? The failure mode of an on/off injector should be off (no voltage applied).

    Disclaimer: This is all based on limited experience using fuel injectors to squirt flow-vis liquid into a wind tunnel, so cut me some slack here! I was using Siemens injectors, and they were indeed on/off. It may be that other injectors have some sort of variable voltage/current/flow setup.

    Craig
  • dalelynndalelynn Member Posts: 28
    Frank: I see that you and others refer to QSubaru and Darlene in particular, as a great place to go (and POC) for the purchase of subaru parts. Is QSubaru a web site?
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Craig, the fuel injectors were staying open - ie. the cylinders were burning rich. The service guys told me that it appeared that the lower voltage being put out was not enough to make them close and open. Not sure if that means the voltage varies depending on engine speed, but that makes sense.

    -- ash
  • mikef11mikef11 Member Posts: 74
    Ash,

    From the site you mentioned, it certainly appears the O2 sensor in your car is at the root of the problem. Do you know if the garage disconnected the battery when they changed your injectors (I imagine they did)? If not, why did your injectors operate correctly after they were changed?

    From another view point, if the injectors started to fail after the O2 sensor and ECU were changed, you may have received a bad O2 sensor or ECU, or there may be a poor connection. Unfortunately, some sensors can be bad right from the start and the defect may not be detected by the built in self-test or OBD II. Actually, if your engine was running rich on two cylinders, shouldn't the check engine light have come on to warn you off too much unburnt fuel reaching the catalytic converter??? ALl points back to the O2 sensor in my opinion.

    Final question: did the garage check the injectors they removed and determine if they were good or not? The answer to that would help narrow down the cause of your problem.

    In any case, best of luck and let us know how things turn out.

    MikeF
  • forest7forest7 Member Posts: 8
    Everyone,
    Got my 2001 Forester L in March, 2001. When it got warm here in NJ found A/C not working. Brought it back to dealer, they connected something behind the glovebox and have since gotten plenty of cold air.
    However, for about the last 1-2 weeks, when I get in it and before starting it, especially in the morning noticing a wet musty/moldy smell.
    Checked the car to make sure that there was not any food left behind (have a 1 year old).
    After a while with the fan and/or A/C on, it goes away. Only to come back the next time I get in.

    Any ideas? Thanks!

    MD
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    MD,

    Sounds pretty typical. If you run the A/C for a while and simply turn off the engine, your vents begin to collect moisture through condensation turning them into mold traps. The best way to remedy this is to remember to shut off the A/C compressor by hitting the A/C button but leaving the fan on for about a minute BEFORE you turn off the engine. This will allow your vents to return to ambient temperature and not condense the moisture in the air.

    If it's really bad, you could feasibly have them cleaned out.

    Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Ken's advice is great.

    For cleaning out musty/moldy/smoky vents, I recommend a good does of Lysol down the vent intake at the base of the windshield. Make sure the system is set to draw in outside air of course and not recirculating.

    Let the AC run for about 10 minutes after you spray BEFORE you get back in the car and try to go somewhere.

    -Colin
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Mike,

    The injectors malfunctioned about 6 months apart (that's why I'm worried #3 is bound to happen unless I can identify the problem).

    The Check Engine light did start flashing indicating a misfire. I would agree with your assessment on the ECU - the car would show the same problem still if it was the ECU. Perhaps it really was malfunctioning injectors...

    ash
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Forgot to add a bit .. I never got to see the fuel injectors afterwards - thank to paranoid service at my dealership. It was hard enough to get them to admit that a fuel injector had actually failed.
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    the ECU, can you let me know if the dealer was able to get any codes on the select monitor? If yes, what were they? I have not heard back from the folks I know at Subaru of Canada, but I can try a different course of action if I can get this information.

    Thanks!
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Thanks Patti, the codes on the select monitor were:

    Code P0303 (misfire code cylinder 3)

    -- ash
  • fudd2befudd2be Member Posts: 50
    Patti,

    I don't know if it is design flaw, but I did notice on my 2K OB 5spd (try it on your GT 5 spd) that the cruise control, when engaged, will not disengage if you put the tranny in neutral WITHOUT USING THE CLUTCH. You can easily slide it into neutral when coasting on the highway. The engine will then rev to redline and bounce off the rev limiter thinking that it is trying to get the now slowing car, to speed up.

    I had a '97 Blazer automatic that did the same thing when slid into neutral from drive. I do not know if the automatic Subarus do that same thing.

    Obviously, if I depress the clutch or brake, cruise will disengage automatically - no problem.

    What do you think?

    -Howard
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I think that's normal.

    -Colin
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Howard- I'm trying to envision an occasion that, while using cruise control, you would have reason to pop the transmission into neutral without using the clutch. So far....I'm not having a lot of success coming up with a plausible scenario. My guess is that you just enjoy experimenting with the cruise control on your vehicles to see if the manufacturer has completely idiot-proofed them. Not that I'm implying that there's anything wrong with that.

    -Frank P.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If something in the vehicle hits the shifter? or a kid int he pass seat hits it? dunno, maybe that is far fetched.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    If something like that were to happen, hopefully one of the drivers reactions would be to get on the clutch and brakes, at least lightly, and put the vehicle back in gear.

    -Colin
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    Hi! I think Colin is right and this is normal, but, like Frank P. indicated, I can't see a reason you would want to do this (except for the fun and experimental value). Anyway, since I do work for Subaru, and I have to work under certain "guidelines" I have make the following statement. "This is not a recommended driving practice". Okay, it's said.

    Anyway, that said, I'm sorry I could not come up with more information for you.
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    How are you this fine morning?? First, please understand that this is in NO way a recommendation for your dealer from SOA nor is this to be construed as your dealer not knowing what to do about the concerns with your Subaru.

    I spoke to a "source" in our Technical group. They indicated that if the repeat failures to your vehicle gave a P0303 reading, it is probably not related to the fuel injectors, but rather the valves. When I asked what would be involved, it was basically removal of the cylinder head and cleaning and re-seating the valves. I do not know if this could be related to carbon build up from fuels, etc.

    You may want to ask your dealer about this.

    I hope this helps!!
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