Sorry to hear about this -- getting stranded with a new car would make me very angry too. I understand your frustration. As Kate suggested, definitely let Subaru handle this if possible.
I know it doesn't help much, but injectors are made by a handful of companies (Bosch, Siemens, and a few others), and similar problems could easily happen on any car using these injectors unless it's something specific about using the injectors in your Subaru that is causing the failure (ie, some other problem in the fuel system). In any case, it's rare to see multiple injectors independently fail like that. The dealer should be bending over backwards to help you out.
Ash -- Sorry to hear about your woes. Like juice wrote, I've never heard of an injector failure before. It also never helps when the local dealer is not customer service oriented. Maybe Patti can help here?
Jerry & Tony -- Just a thought out of the blue, but you may want to check to see if the cross bars were installed the right way. The factory cross bars have a slight tear drop like cross section where the wider end should face forward. Sometimes the dealer will install them backwards causing the bars to not be aerodynamic.
Frank P, Craig: I've seen the oil at 2500-3000 miles - blecch! I do a lot of short trip, stop-and-go driving, so I don't feel bad about the more frequent changes, and I only drive about 10k miles/yr. I *always* change the filter at every change - no sense in leaving a filter full of dirty oil to contaminate the clean load!
The oil does not remotely begin to loose its lubricating properties when it changes from gold (or whatever color it starts out as) to black. That's a normal result of being in the crankcase.
On my previous ride (97 Chevy K1500) I had three injectors go during the first 6 months of ownership. Dealer would replace the faulty injector and it would be fine for a while, then it'd happen again. After that, it was fine until I traded it back in July for our OB.
The only explanation the dealer could give was that it was a defective set of injectors. It seemed to be kind of isolated to '97 GM's with the 350 V8 since I remember another similar truck and a full size van in for the same thing during one of my injector failures.
So, I know it's a P-T-A when things like this go wrong. Hopefully, Patty/SOA can help you get the service you deserve. Don't blame Subaru though! Maybe you could try another dealership in your area for service?
Unfortunately Patti/SOA are likely not going to be much help for me -- because I'm in Canada. Trying to get a hold of Subaru customer service from prior experience is not something as easy as a phone call unfortunately.
I've asked that all fuel injectors be replaced, but Subaru Canada's stance is they only replace them as they break.
The worst part about all this, is I really (did) like my OB.
Ash, I'm bummed to hear about your continued fuel injector problems.. Thanks for sharing them with the rest of us; we need to know the good and the bad about our rides. It's disheartening when a good product is represented by poor customer service.
Lemons happen in any line of vehicles, even in Hondas and Toyotas.
Kate, I learned how true that statement can be. I've read and heard the Toyotas are reliable -- which is why my neighbor bought one. One of the cylinder walls became scored and his Corolla (5 y.o.?) now burns oil. The Toyota dealer pulled the engine apart twice, charged $2,000, and still hasn't fixed the problem. Could be a poor dealer, could be a lemon engine, who knows. Unfortunately for Toyota, it doesn't matter -- he'll never buy another.
Jerry: Try what Juice says, and remove them to see if the noise goes away. Unless it is really annoying, put the bars back on...at least you know where the noise is coming from.
Kens: My crossbars have arrows on them (decals actually) that say "Front" and point towards the front of the car. I'll check the bars, though, in case the decals (and therefore the bars) were put on backwards.
Anyway, it seems the vibration I had at 65mph was a combination of things. The dealer re-balanced the wheels and things are much smoother now. I actually was asked to take the master mechanic for a ride to show him the vibration. There is still some vibration, but it probably is the "choppiness" than Colin described, since it is not speed dependant.
Juice: I installed the fender flares today using Subaru and your instructions. Things went very smoothly. Pulling back the tape strip first is the key. Thanks for emphasizing this.
You can tell when people are back at work...the posting count here goes way up.
Hi, I'm a new Subaru owner and new member to this group. First, I'd like to thank the group as I did a lot of researching through here before settling on a '98 Subaru S model.
My question involves warranties, and what they cover. My Forester has 54,000 miles on it, so I didn't expect to be offered any warranty. I ended up purchasing a 3-year, 36,000 "Advantage Plus" warranty from my dealership for $1500. Upon reading through the contract, though, I have real concerns about what exactly the warranty covers. There seem to be quite a lot of exceptions listed. The salesman I dealt with assured me that "most everything" was covered, and when I brought up specifics - timing belt, exhaust system, brakes, heated seats - he said they were covered. The contract seems to have language to the contrary, and I don't want to just take the salesman's word for it.
Can anybody give me some insight on what the warranty I bought DOES cover? Also, my car still falls under the 5-year, 60,000-mile powertrain warranty (at least for another 6000 miles anyway); if the 3-year warranty doesn't cover say the timing belt, should I have it done under the powertrain warranty at 59,500 miles?
Dan....Sorry I've never heard of the "Advantage Plus" warranty. Did your dealer offer you the Subaru Added Security warranty?? You could have purchased that plan for less money. And you would have received a really good extended warranty plan in the process. The timing belt is not covered under your powertrain warranty. That is considered a maintenance item. You have the 2.5 engine, and recommended replacement is 100K. I suggest you call the company and get your answers, if they include too much small print, I'd demand a refund. It appears to me that the salesman gets a kickback for selling that warranty plan.
While I'm no expert, I'd say the brakes, timing belt and heated seats are not covered. (maybe the heated seats, but definitely not the brakes and timing belt)
Basically any item considered wear and tear isn't included in even a bumper to bumper warranty. (bulbs, wipers, brakes, belts, tires, etc. etc.)
Personally I would have gone for a factory extended warranty, cause then you can always complain to the manufacturer about any problems, whereas with a 3rd party you are stuck complaining to some insurance company.
Thanks for the advice, Darlene and Mike. Looking at the service contract now, I see it's with an insurance agency out of Illinois. My next step I guess is to speak with another dealership in this area (one that's closer to my home), since they would be the ones I'd most likely go to for service, and ask them what is covered. My service contract has specific literature on how to cancel the contract for a full refund, so I may be doing just that.
Per your request from post number 742, I need to have your e-mail address so I can describe to your our Forester problems and your fax number to send you our mpg mileage log. Again our Forester was in for service and the same problems persist.
Juice, Changed my oil for the first time on my 2001 Forester the other day per your splendid instructions. One question though, I noticed in the owners manual they mention replacing the drain plug seal ring or some sort of washer??? I did not notice anything removable on the drain plug itself. Also, I put in a hair too much oil because the reading I got after the first start up was apparently incorrectly reflecting low. Should I follow the replacement amount per the owner's manual exactly (4.2 quarts I believe)? I put in about 4.5 quarts. Is it necessary to drain that excess out? Thanks in advance to all for any input. Greg
Greg- I'll take a stab at answering your questions since Juice is out of town this week.
There's a washer that's suppose to go on the drain plug. However, I seem to recall seeing in an earlier post that they don't come that way from the factory. But the washer is included with with the Subaru OE replacement filter (which you can get from Darlene at Qsubaru for $4.00). IMO, it isn't a "must have" part cause anyone who gets their oil changed at a Jiffy Lube type place won't get one either. I wouldn't worry about it as long as you don't see any traces of oil leaking onto the ground. An extra 3/10 of a quart shouldn't hurt anything either. Consider both as lessons learned for the next time you change your oil.
Greg, When I changed the GT's oil for the first time, it had no gasket (though I looked and looked for it!). I got some of the OE oil filters from Darlene at QSubaru (thanks!) and as Frank said, they have the copper gasket and it's not a big deal if it's not there. A gasket did help my 82 Nissan Stanza from leaking as it got older. Since getting the GT in January, I started changing my own oil again and I noticed that my mechanic had put a washer on my 93 Civic even though it didn't have one before. His was fabricated using a metallic washer and a dab of (I'm guessing) valve gasket cement.
If you see juice's oil change page, he's found that 4.5 quarts is just the right amount (at least on the 2.5l Phase I engine; you've got the 2.5l Phase II). Even if not, .3 quart wouldn't be much of an overfill.
I read the page you linked and it didn't seem to have much flow, almost like I was paraphrased or piecemealed from some other source.
You could certainly try resetting the ECU... sorry if you posted it already, but what cylinders had the failed injectors? What did the spark plugs look like, especially the one(s) from the cylinders with bad injectors?
I agree the page didn't seem to flow at first - but then I read it again. A couple of the sections are above my level, but it actually is readable, and I learned alot. The single line sentences are section headers - once you figure out the article is actually a bunch of sections, I'm sure you could read it - and it's got some interesting stuff in it. I sure learned alot about single-port fuel injectors and why cylinders misfire.
Cylinder 1,3 had failed injectors. Spark plugs looked fine, as did the wires.
It just confuses me that the injectors would start working correctly once the RPMs were above idle, and enough voltage and current would get to them.
I don't know if this helps or not, but I thought injectors were basically on/off valves (that click open with 12V DC). The amount of fuel delivered by an injector would be a function of how long it stayed open and the amount of pressure in the fuel system. These factors should be controlled by the ECU. If the problem is obviously related to the RPM band of the engine, I am inclined to agree with your hypothesis that the ECU (or something else) is at fault and not necessarily the injector. Do you know if the "failed" injectors were staying open or closed? The failure mode of an on/off injector should be off (no voltage applied).
Disclaimer: This is all based on limited experience using fuel injectors to squirt flow-vis liquid into a wind tunnel, so cut me some slack here! I was using Siemens injectors, and they were indeed on/off. It may be that other injectors have some sort of variable voltage/current/flow setup.
Frank: I see that you and others refer to QSubaru and Darlene in particular, as a great place to go (and POC) for the purchase of subaru parts. Is QSubaru a web site?
Craig, the fuel injectors were staying open - ie. the cylinders were burning rich. The service guys told me that it appeared that the lower voltage being put out was not enough to make them close and open. Not sure if that means the voltage varies depending on engine speed, but that makes sense.
From the site you mentioned, it certainly appears the O2 sensor in your car is at the root of the problem. Do you know if the garage disconnected the battery when they changed your injectors (I imagine they did)? If not, why did your injectors operate correctly after they were changed?
From another view point, if the injectors started to fail after the O2 sensor and ECU were changed, you may have received a bad O2 sensor or ECU, or there may be a poor connection. Unfortunately, some sensors can be bad right from the start and the defect may not be detected by the built in self-test or OBD II. Actually, if your engine was running rich on two cylinders, shouldn't the check engine light have come on to warn you off too much unburnt fuel reaching the catalytic converter??? ALl points back to the O2 sensor in my opinion.
Final question: did the garage check the injectors they removed and determine if they were good or not? The answer to that would help narrow down the cause of your problem.
In any case, best of luck and let us know how things turn out.
Everyone, Got my 2001 Forester L in March, 2001. When it got warm here in NJ found A/C not working. Brought it back to dealer, they connected something behind the glovebox and have since gotten plenty of cold air. However, for about the last 1-2 weeks, when I get in it and before starting it, especially in the morning noticing a wet musty/moldy smell. Checked the car to make sure that there was not any food left behind (have a 1 year old). After a while with the fan and/or A/C on, it goes away. Only to come back the next time I get in.
Sounds pretty typical. If you run the A/C for a while and simply turn off the engine, your vents begin to collect moisture through condensation turning them into mold traps. The best way to remedy this is to remember to shut off the A/C compressor by hitting the A/C button but leaving the fan on for about a minute BEFORE you turn off the engine. This will allow your vents to return to ambient temperature and not condense the moisture in the air.
If it's really bad, you could feasibly have them cleaned out.
For cleaning out musty/moldy/smoky vents, I recommend a good does of Lysol down the vent intake at the base of the windshield. Make sure the system is set to draw in outside air of course and not recirculating.
Let the AC run for about 10 minutes after you spray BEFORE you get back in the car and try to go somewhere.
The injectors malfunctioned about 6 months apart (that's why I'm worried #3 is bound to happen unless I can identify the problem).
The Check Engine light did start flashing indicating a misfire. I would agree with your assessment on the ECU - the car would show the same problem still if it was the ECU. Perhaps it really was malfunctioning injectors...
Forgot to add a bit .. I never got to see the fuel injectors afterwards - thank to paranoid service at my dealership. It was hard enough to get them to admit that a fuel injector had actually failed.
the ECU, can you let me know if the dealer was able to get any codes on the select monitor? If yes, what were they? I have not heard back from the folks I know at Subaru of Canada, but I can try a different course of action if I can get this information.
I don't know if it is design flaw, but I did notice on my 2K OB 5spd (try it on your GT 5 spd) that the cruise control, when engaged, will not disengage if you put the tranny in neutral WITHOUT USING THE CLUTCH. You can easily slide it into neutral when coasting on the highway. The engine will then rev to redline and bounce off the rev limiter thinking that it is trying to get the now slowing car, to speed up.
I had a '97 Blazer automatic that did the same thing when slid into neutral from drive. I do not know if the automatic Subarus do that same thing.
Obviously, if I depress the clutch or brake, cruise will disengage automatically - no problem.
Howard- I'm trying to envision an occasion that, while using cruise control, you would have reason to pop the transmission into neutral without using the clutch. So far....I'm not having a lot of success coming up with a plausible scenario. My guess is that you just enjoy experimenting with the cruise control on your vehicles to see if the manufacturer has completely idiot-proofed them. Not that I'm implying that there's anything wrong with that.
If something like that were to happen, hopefully one of the drivers reactions would be to get on the clutch and brakes, at least lightly, and put the vehicle back in gear.
Hi! I think Colin is right and this is normal, but, like Frank P. indicated, I can't see a reason you would want to do this (except for the fun and experimental value). Anyway, since I do work for Subaru, and I have to work under certain "guidelines" I have make the following statement. "This is not a recommended driving practice". Okay, it's said.
Anyway, that said, I'm sorry I could not come up with more information for you.
How are you this fine morning?? First, please understand that this is in NO way a recommendation for your dealer from SOA nor is this to be construed as your dealer not knowing what to do about the concerns with your Subaru.
I spoke to a "source" in our Technical group. They indicated that if the repeat failures to your vehicle gave a P0303 reading, it is probably not related to the fuel injectors, but rather the valves. When I asked what would be involved, it was basically removal of the cylinder head and cleaning and re-seating the valves. I do not know if this could be related to carbon build up from fuels, etc.
Comments
I know it doesn't help much, but injectors are made by a handful of companies (Bosch, Siemens, and a few others), and similar problems could easily happen on any car using these injectors unless it's something specific about using the injectors in your Subaru that is causing the failure (ie, some other problem in the fuel system). In any case, it's rare to see multiple injectors independently fail like that. The dealer should be bending over backwards to help you out.
Craig
Your problem is rare; I'd never heard of fuel injector failure before.
I'm sure you know Subaru scores well overall, but there's nothing like personal experience.
I don't know about the thousands less comment, though. At least not with AWD.
-juice
Jerry & Tony -- Just a thought out of the blue, but you may want to check to see if the cross bars were installed the right way. The factory cross bars have a slight tear drop like cross section where the wider end should face forward. Sometimes the dealer will install them backwards causing the bars to not be aerodynamic.
Ken
I'll ask Patti if she has a counterpart in Canada, since she works for SoA. Or perhaps she has jurisdiction over Canada?
-juice
The oil does not remotely begin to loose its lubricating properties when it changes from gold (or whatever color it starts out as) to black. That's a normal result of being in the crankcase.
-Colin
The only explanation the dealer could give was that it was a defective set of injectors. It seemed to be kind of isolated to '97 GM's with the 350 V8 since I remember another similar truck and a full size van in for the same thing during one of my injector failures.
So, I know it's a P-T-A when things like this go wrong. Hopefully, Patty/SOA can help you get the service you deserve. Don't blame Subaru though! Maybe you could try another dealership in your area for service?
-bb
-juice
I've asked that all fuel injectors be replaced, but Subaru Canada's stance is they only replace them as they break.
The worst part about all this, is I really (did) like my OB.
-- ash
Lemons happen in any line of vehicles, even in Hondas and Toyotas.
Kate, I learned how true that statement can be. I've read and heard the Toyotas are reliable -- which is why my neighbor bought one. One of the cylinder walls became scored and his Corolla (5 y.o.?) now burns oil. The Toyota dealer pulled the engine apart twice, charged $2,000, and still hasn't fixed the problem. Could be a poor dealer, could be a lemon engine, who knows. Unfortunately for Toyota, it doesn't matter -- he'll never buy another.
..Mike
..Mike
Go figure. Some people are VERY forgiving, I guess.
-juice
PS Too bad I never dated anyone like that
She needs your VIN and a brief history of the problems.
She said she doesn't really have a counterpart north of the border, but she'll try to stir things up for you anyway.
-juice
Kens: My crossbars have arrows on them (decals actually) that say "Front" and point towards the front of the car. I'll check the bars, though, in case the decals (and therefore the bars) were put on backwards.
Anyway, it seems the vibration I had at 65mph was a combination of things. The dealer re-balanced the wheels and things are much smoother now. I actually was asked to take the master mechanic for a ride to show him the vibration. There is still some vibration, but it probably is the "choppiness" than Colin described, since it is not speed dependant.
Juice: I installed the fender flares today using Subaru and your instructions. Things went very smoothly. Pulling back the tape strip first is the key. Thanks for emphasizing this.
You can tell when people are back at work...the posting count here goes way up.
-Tony
That's one thing I'd ask Subaru for - MUCH better instructions for their accessories! Please!
Did you notice there are virtually NO written instructions, just photos? It's trial and error for anyone without the Crew as a resource.
-juice
My question involves warranties, and what they cover. My Forester has 54,000 miles on it, so I didn't expect to be offered any warranty. I ended up purchasing a 3-year, 36,000 "Advantage Plus" warranty from my dealership for $1500. Upon reading through the contract, though, I have real concerns about what exactly the warranty covers. There seem to be quite a lot of exceptions listed. The salesman I dealt with assured me that "most everything" was covered, and when I brought up specifics - timing belt, exhaust system, brakes, heated seats - he said they were covered. The contract seems to have language to the contrary, and I don't want to just take the salesman's word for it.
Can anybody give me some insight on what the warranty I bought DOES cover? Also, my car still falls under the 5-year, 60,000-mile powertrain warranty (at least for another 6000 miles anyway); if the 3-year warranty doesn't cover say the timing belt, should I have it done under the powertrain warranty at 59,500 miles?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Dan
Plus" warranty. Did your dealer offer you the
Subaru Added Security warranty?? You could have purchased that plan for less money. And you would have received a really good extended warranty plan in the process.
The timing belt is not covered under your powertrain warranty. That is considered a maintenance item. You have the 2.5 engine, and recommended replacement is 100K.
I suggest you call the company and get your answers, if they include too much small print, I'd demand a refund. It appears to me that the salesman gets a kickback for selling that warranty plan.
Darlene
The armrest extension instructions, however, were really good. Go figure
-Tony
Basically any item considered wear and tear isn't included in even a bumper to bumper warranty. (bulbs, wipers, brakes, belts, tires, etc. etc.)
Personally I would have gone for a factory extended warranty, cause then you can always complain to the manufacturer about any problems, whereas with a 3rd party you are stuck complaining to some insurance company.
-mike
Again, thanks for the help.
-Dan
Changed my oil for the first time on my 2001 Forester the other day per your splendid instructions. One question though, I noticed in the owners manual they mention replacing the drain plug seal ring or some sort of washer??? I did not notice anything removable on the drain plug itself. Also, I put in a hair too much oil because the reading I got after the first start up was apparently incorrectly reflecting low. Should I follow the replacement amount per the owner's manual exactly (4.2 quarts I believe)? I put in about 4.5 quarts. Is it necessary to drain that excess out?
Thanks in advance to all for any input.
Greg
There's a washer that's suppose to go on the drain plug. However, I seem to recall seeing in an earlier post that they don't come that way from the factory. But the washer is included with with the Subaru OE replacement filter (which you can get from Darlene at Qsubaru for $4.00). IMO, it isn't a "must have" part cause anyone who gets their oil changed at a Jiffy Lube type place won't get one either. I wouldn't worry about it as long as you don't see any traces of oil leaking onto the ground. An extra 3/10 of a quart shouldn't hurt anything either. Consider both as lessons learned for the next time you change your oil.
-Frank P.
If you see juice's oil change page, he's found that 4.5 quarts is just the right amount (at least on the 2.5l Phase I engine; you've got the 2.5l Phase II). Even if not, .3 quart wouldn't be much of an overfill.
Frank, thanks for filling in for juice.
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
As always, it is much appreciated.
Greg
..Mike
..Mike
I read the page you linked and it didn't seem to have much flow, almost like I was paraphrased or piecemealed from some other source.
You could certainly try resetting the ECU... sorry if you posted it already, but what cylinders had the failed injectors? What did the spark plugs look like, especially the one(s) from the cylinders with bad injectors?
-Colin
Cylinder 1,3 had failed injectors. Spark plugs looked fine, as did the wires.
It just confuses me that the injectors would start working correctly once the RPMs were above idle, and enough voltage and current would get to them.
-- ash
Disclaimer: This is all based on limited experience using fuel injectors to squirt flow-vis liquid into a wind tunnel, so cut me some slack here! I was using Siemens injectors, and they were indeed on/off. It may be that other injectors have some sort of variable voltage/current/flow setup.
Craig
-- ash
From the site you mentioned, it certainly appears the O2 sensor in your car is at the root of the problem. Do you know if the garage disconnected the battery when they changed your injectors (I imagine they did)? If not, why did your injectors operate correctly after they were changed?
From another view point, if the injectors started to fail after the O2 sensor and ECU were changed, you may have received a bad O2 sensor or ECU, or there may be a poor connection. Unfortunately, some sensors can be bad right from the start and the defect may not be detected by the built in self-test or OBD II. Actually, if your engine was running rich on two cylinders, shouldn't the check engine light have come on to warn you off too much unburnt fuel reaching the catalytic converter??? ALl points back to the O2 sensor in my opinion.
Final question: did the garage check the injectors they removed and determine if they were good or not? The answer to that would help narrow down the cause of your problem.
In any case, best of luck and let us know how things turn out.
MikeF
Got my 2001 Forester L in March, 2001. When it got warm here in NJ found A/C not working. Brought it back to dealer, they connected something behind the glovebox and have since gotten plenty of cold air.
However, for about the last 1-2 weeks, when I get in it and before starting it, especially in the morning noticing a wet musty/moldy smell.
Checked the car to make sure that there was not any food left behind (have a 1 year old).
After a while with the fan and/or A/C on, it goes away. Only to come back the next time I get in.
Any ideas? Thanks!
MD
Sounds pretty typical. If you run the A/C for a while and simply turn off the engine, your vents begin to collect moisture through condensation turning them into mold traps. The best way to remedy this is to remember to shut off the A/C compressor by hitting the A/C button but leaving the fan on for about a minute BEFORE you turn off the engine. This will allow your vents to return to ambient temperature and not condense the moisture in the air.
If it's really bad, you could feasibly have them cleaned out.
Ken
For cleaning out musty/moldy/smoky vents, I recommend a good does of Lysol down the vent intake at the base of the windshield. Make sure the system is set to draw in outside air of course and not recirculating.
Let the AC run for about 10 minutes after you spray BEFORE you get back in the car and try to go somewhere.
-Colin
The injectors malfunctioned about 6 months apart (that's why I'm worried #3 is bound to happen unless I can identify the problem).
The Check Engine light did start flashing indicating a misfire. I would agree with your assessment on the ECU - the car would show the same problem still if it was the ECU. Perhaps it really was malfunctioning injectors...
ash
Thanks!
Code P0303 (misfire code cylinder 3)
-- ash
I don't know if it is design flaw, but I did notice on my 2K OB 5spd (try it on your GT 5 spd) that the cruise control, when engaged, will not disengage if you put the tranny in neutral WITHOUT USING THE CLUTCH. You can easily slide it into neutral when coasting on the highway. The engine will then rev to redline and bounce off the rev limiter thinking that it is trying to get the now slowing car, to speed up.
I had a '97 Blazer automatic that did the same thing when slid into neutral from drive. I do not know if the automatic Subarus do that same thing.
Obviously, if I depress the clutch or brake, cruise will disengage automatically - no problem.
What do you think?
-Howard
-Colin
-Frank P.
-mike
-Colin
Anyway, that said, I'm sorry I could not come up with more information for you.
I spoke to a "source" in our Technical group. They indicated that if the repeat failures to your vehicle gave a P0303 reading, it is probably not related to the fuel injectors, but rather the valves. When I asked what would be involved, it was basically removal of the cylinder head and cleaning and re-seating the valves. I do not know if this could be related to carbon build up from fuels, etc.
You may want to ask your dealer about this.
I hope this helps!!