It could be bearing "rap", which would occur if certain parts of the engine were starved for oil at startup. If the noise occurrs after the engine hasn't been started for a few days, but is fine otherwise, I would definitely suspect a lubrication issue.
The condition is usually caused by low oil, a blocked oil passage, or a defective/improperly designed oil filter (which is allowing oil to drain back into the sump).
I remember getting this noise after switching to a Fram filter on an old Mazda pickup. Turns out, the Fram filter did not have a spring loaded baffle that the Mazda filters had, and all the engine oil was draining back into the pan overnight! It caused an awful clatter on every cold start until I swapped out the filter a few days later.
Ken, The following was given to me by my service technician: "The '97/'98MY 2.2 and 2.5 engines are more fuel efficient, more powerful, and have a flatter, more usable torque curve than previous years. To achieve these objectives, it was necessary to make improvements and modifications to the subaru engine. The following are some of those improvements: - mechanical valve lash adjusters - lightweight pistons - short skirt, molybdenus coated pistons - increased compression ratio - improved cylinder head design - improved induction system The only drawback to these enhancements may be some engine noise after a cold start-up. This noise is a consequence of the engine improvements and is NOT, in any way, an indication of future engine problems. If a customer complains of a cold engine knock, please reassure him/her that no permanent engine damage will occur. If the noise persists and is still clearly audible when the engine is warm, please consult your DTM."
Although my clatter goes away after a few minutes, I find it hard to believe the racket I hear during a cold weather startup is not causing some damage.
Ken, I'm assuming your engines pistons were replaced because the clatter did not go away after warm up.
Anyone else with '97 or '98 2.5's have this clatter and not concerned?
I have to agree with c_hunter; my '00 Subie Legacy GT runs better on 89 octane too. I too heard pinging with 87 octane. The funny thing is that it seemed to happen after a few months of driving; when the car was new it did not detonate.
If the car is supposed to run on 87, couldn't you arguable bring it to the dealer and find out why it was pinging on 87? Theoretically, returning the car for false advertising? I personally wouldn't do that but if the car is meant to run on 87 it shouldn't ping on it. My '88 XT6 runs on 87 w/o a problem, no pinging even under heavy load.
No, the dealer shouldn't be required to fix it. There's nothing to fix. Some engines require more octane because of mfg tolerances, wear, environmental conditions, or gas quality.
It still seems like false advertising to me then. If I bought the car based on the fact that I would be putting in 87 octane, and then i need to put in 89 octane it could cost me $100s or $1000s of dollars a year. If the manual says "87 required, 93 is reccomended" i might be able to buy that arguement.
Also, all brochures state "prices and specifications subject to change without notice" Many factors a manufacturer has no control over have effect on a vehicle's octane sensitivity.
Yes, in my case I could still faintly hear the piston slap even after the engine had warmed up. It would be a lot less noticeable, but if I repeatedly revved my engine up to 3,000RPM and let off the gas, I could hear the knocking as the revs dropped past 2,800RPM.
The service department first scheduled me in for a short block overhaul. A few days after leaving my vehicle at the shop, I get a call from them telling me I need to meet with the DTM first. Apparently, many dealers had been doing the short block swaps but it didn't always solve the problem.
The DTM checks out my vehicle and agrees that I do have piston slap. He whips out a technical memo from his briefcase that pretty much lists everything you listed plus the fix using "countermeasure" pistons.
The DTM gave me the option of going with the fix but told me that the noise is harmless and will not hurt my engine. He also warned me that the new pistons may not get rid of all the noise.
I've been involved in some very lengthy (and misinformation filled) discussions on gas octane on the iclub and believe me, I stated it correctly in my last post.
Environmental conditions meaning altitude, weather, terrain (hills, mountains, plains).
The same engine in the same car of the same model year and mileage can require different octane to reach peak performance --or at the very least, avoid detonation-- even in the same part of the country. It could certainly require different octane in a different region.
If you don't believe me, read the consumer FAQ on gasoline on the American Petroleum Institute's site.
Octane also has an emotional aspect to it. Heck, if someone *feels* like they're getting a benefit from high octance gas (regardless of if the engine really needs it), then go for it.
Okay, let's look at some other numbers; 15,000 miles per year at 20 miles per gallon. That's 750 gallons of gas. 750 x $0.15 = $112.50. So, 93 octane gas costs an extra hundred bucks a year compared to 87 octane. 89 octane costs $37.50 per year more than 87. Sure for some folks the numbers might move around a bit but the fact is that 89 octane just doesn't cost enough more than 87 to really matter. I'm certainly not going to whinge at my dealer over it.
Right now our premium (91 octane, woo hoo) is $1.38/gallon. 87 is $1.24 and 89 is $1.31.
So I'm buying the premium my 2.5RS seems to prefer for a lot less than you all are paying for 87. :-Þ
Start with the mfg's suggestion and work up or down in octane and see if you note a performance or economy change. If so, switch assuming you're not too tight to blow an extra $37- $112 per year. Think hard about the total cost of vehicle ownership, especially newer cars like we all have (or at least seem to discuss here) and you might conclude that $112 is nothing, if it makes your vehicle perform better in some way.
In the unlikely event anyone was wondering, we got a 2nd opinion on the previously mentioned Mazda 626 throttle body. An independent mechanic recommended cleaning it and adjusting the bleed screw. He did so, and it's now running adequately again (though still idling just a teeny bit rough when cold). I suspect we will eventually end up having to spring for the pricey replacement throttle body, but even if this interim fix just buys us 3 or 4 months -- long enough to put us on the other side of the major holiday bills -- that'll be well worth the $58 invested in it.
Just my $.02 - We have been assured and re-assured that this is a non-destructive noise. The post above indicate the reasons for it and they are correct. FHI has run these engines to some very high mileage and checked for wear or damage and found none. So, I'm assuming it is okay.
Some of this might be helpful. I can't swear by the information, but the info. about sulfur in fuels is pretty interesting (that rotten egg smell)? Otherwise the info. is a bit dry. Hope this information is useful to you all in some way.
Yeah that is what I usually do try to make it there. When I used to work in NJ it was great. Although a lot of times I get caught short in SI and get raped!
I looked way back on this thread, and there were suggestions to run Foresters on a bit more inflated tires, both for mpg improvement and sportier ride. Someone has recommended 32 psi all around.
I wonder if any of you can confirm this recommendation (32 psi on Forester), or should I stick to 28/29 psi as said on the door jab?
I's surely love to have a better mpg for my long trip to Vegas and back.
What about off-roading forrays? Should I lower the pressure for off-road trips in the desert? What's recommended pressure for light off-roading on dirt/unpaved/gravel roads (not rock climbing)?
Patti, I linked directly to the API consumer information a few posts back. Mike didn't read it then either.
Since Ken got his piston slap fixed under warranty with the new counterweighted pistons (longer skirts too) then that's what I would suggest. Excessive sideload is not good for longevity no matter how it's explained or justified.
I'm just saying that if a car is gonna cost me almost $800 more per year to run, I'd be pretty pissed if the dealer didn't fix it. $800 may not be a lot to you, but it certainly is a lot to me...especially if the car is designed to run on lower octane fuel, like is said, irregularities are one thing but constantly having to run on higher octane is a waste of my $.
I've found that my Forester S handling started getting sloppy when I had the tires inflated to the "recommended" settings. The tires would frequently squeal when turning (especially in those parking lots!).
As I understand, car manufacturers come up with their pressure recommendations based on several factors (as we've seen with the whole Firestone/Ford recall). Ride comfort is one of them. I suspect that's what's partly behind the recommended numbers.
I've found that 32 all around works better for me for everyday driving. Handling is better and it might even attribute to better milage. 32psi is still well within the tolerances of the tire (check tire sidewalls for that info). I've found it also works fine for light off-roading too.
The thing to keep in mind is that there is no "one" tire pressure for all uses. Ideally, you should change the pressure everytime your load as well as driving application changes. For example, if you're going to be carrying 4 passengers plus cargo, the recommended settings for the rear tire go up significantly. For driving in sand or very rough road conditions, it helps to deflate them a bit. If you want to start getting technical, you can also set the front and rear tires differently for oversteer/understeer, but that's another topic.
Until I tried to put the crossbars on the Forester I thought I was mechanically adept. Now I'm wondering if I can read or assemble what appears to be a simple piece of equipment.
The back one went on in a breeze (yes, it is the short one). The front one seems to be an inch or two short of a full bar since it seems impossible to fit across. I've read both the manual and the instruction sheet (about ten times!), have backed off all the bolts, have tried mounting it amidship and sliding it forward, but it doesn't want to move very much towards the front. I'm trying to mount the front rail over the pillar between the front and back doors, although the instructions seem to indicate that the crossbar could be even farther forward.
texsubaru, re: <1260</A>>, I was curious; thanks for the update. Hey, Subarus have throttle bodies too Down the road, maybe I'll be able to prevent or postpone a throttle body problem as you did. Then again, hopefully Techron at every oil change will avoid the problem altogether.
Kate- I run 35 psi in all 4 tires. This is still well below the max allowable pressure. The higher psi probably gives a little stiffer ride but also increases gas mileage. On previous cars I've owned, the tires wore faster on the outside edges when run at the manufacturer's recommended settings. Tires seem to wear more evenly with an extra 5-6 psi. Personally, I think that auto manufacturers intentionally sacrifice tread wear for a more supple ride (which most Americans seem to prefer).
I also run with 35 psi in all 4 tires. The ride is a bit hasher than stock, and overall I like it better. Another benefit, was that I got 30.1 MPG on a 298 mile highway trip (I was runing just above posted highway speeds, with cruise control). My Forester is still rather new, I have barely 2k mile on it.
Hey all, I just discovered this forum yesterday. What a great find! I just bought a 2001 OB Wagon. (I pick it up in 2 days!!) After years of gas guzzling, poor handling SUV's, I think this new car will be a great change. Here's my question. Is there an easy way to disconnect the DRL's? On my VW, I had to almost beg the service guy, before he finally told me which fuse to pull. (It was a big one behind a pannel under the dash, not a small one in the regular fuse box.) Is there a similar solution on the Outback? Thanks in advance!!
I've been asking the same question... apparently, the only way is to trick the car into thinking the parking brake is on, but then you get a light on the dash for the brake...
Actually, we use Techron pretty religiously. I asked the mechanic about it, and he said that while Techron is very good stuff for helping keep injectors clean, it'd make little difference for the throttle body. Unfortunately, I didn't have time right then to delve further into the whys of this ...
When the check engine light came on as I was driving my 86 Accord, I took it into my mechanic right away. After three tries he gave up trying to suppress the code for egr (exhaust gas recirculation valve) system failure and recommended I go to the dealer. Dealer fixed it by cleaning the "egr filter" which he said was dirty as the direct result of the use of Shell gas "which is well known for its poor quality...don't use it."
Well, I smelled B.S. bigtime and continued to use Shell because the more I used the credit card, the more free gas I received. Sure enough, 6 mos. later, same problem. So, twice shy, for the next three years I avoided Shell, used Chevron w/"techroline", and finally sold the car having never had a relapse. Go figure.
Regarding octane, don't the brains in cars today "learn" the correct mixture and advance settings based on knock sensors and oxygen sensors? And couldn't a car "fed" 87 octane get used to the stuff and then stutter for awhile on a new fuel?
That was what they originally told be with my Golf too. But eventually I found about the fuse. I can't imagine that there isn't a similar solution to the Soob.
Last time the DRL issue came up, there was some concern that the hand-brake sensor was also linked to the ABS system, so it's probably not the best way to disable the DRL's. I'm sure there must be a fuse/relay you can pull or a wire you can snip to disable the DRL's -- nobody's figured it out yet.
When I had my VW Golf I had some minor hesitation problems, etc. The service manager asked what type of gas I was using - Shell. His response was to switch to anything else before trying any mechanical work on the beast. I switched and never had the problem again in 4+ years.
disable your DRL's. I'm not a perfect driver. I need every possible opportunity to see your car as early as possible. DRL's may not help you, but they help protect me from my imperfections.
Why do you want to disable your lights? They are designed as another defensive driving assist. The cost of replacing more bulbs is a lot cheaper than an accident.
DRLs will be useless next year anyway, because all cars will have em, and we'll just get used to it. Personally I hate em. I'm a smart enough driver that when I feel that I need my lights (which include tail lights) on I will flip the switch. I've seen too many people drive w/o their other lights on because their DRLs are providing enough light, not to mention if they are gonna do DRLs the rear markers should be illuminated also.
When I brought my 00 OB for engine noise check in Nov. this year, the dealer gave me a copy of same message. In relation with this, please someone enlighten me that whether the engines on 2YK and 97,98 and 99 OB are SOHC 2.5 Phase II LEV. which is on 2000 model. Thanks. Yuki.
Didn't know that I was bringing up such a touchy subject. Sorry about that. In my line of work I drive without headlights in the "company car" sometimes even at night. It's kind of a habit to want to be able to control when my lights are, or are not, on.
bc3274, the reaction is just because we've beat the subject to death. Select "see all responses" near the top of this page and use your browser to search for "DRL". Also check the other Subaru Crew topics; it's in here somewhere. Wish I had a link handy for you.
Comments
The condition is usually caused by low oil, a blocked oil passage, or a defective/improperly designed oil filter (which is allowing oil to drain back into the sump).
I remember getting this noise after switching to a Fram filter on an old Mazda pickup. Turns out, the Fram filter did not have a spring loaded baffle that the Mazda filters had, and all the engine oil was draining back into the pan overnight! It caused an awful clatter on every cold start until I swapped out the filter a few days later.
Craig
The following was given to me by my service technician:
"The '97/'98MY 2.2 and 2.5 engines are more fuel efficient, more powerful, and have a flatter, more usable torque curve than previous years. To achieve these objectives, it was necessary to make improvements and modifications to the subaru engine. The following are some of those improvements:
- mechanical valve lash adjusters
- lightweight pistons
- short skirt, molybdenus coated pistons
- increased compression ratio
- improved cylinder head design
- improved induction system
The only drawback to these enhancements may be some engine noise after a cold start-up. This noise is a consequence of the engine improvements and is NOT, in any way, an indication of future engine problems.
If a customer complains of a cold engine knock, please reassure him/her that no permanent engine damage will occur. If the noise persists and is still clearly audible when the engine is warm, please consult your DTM."
Although my clatter goes away after a few minutes, I find it hard to believe the racket I hear during a cold weather startup is not causing some damage.
Ken, I'm assuming your engines pistons were replaced because the clatter did not go away after warm up.
Anyone else with '97 or '98 2.5's have this clatter and not concerned?
Regards,
-wdb
-mike
-Colin
-mike
Many factors a manufacturer has no control over have effect on a vehicle's octane sensitivity.
Dennis
-mike
I doubt it
Gus
Yes, in my case I could still faintly hear the piston slap even after the engine had warmed up. It would be a lot less noticeable, but if I repeatedly revved my engine up to 3,000RPM and let off the gas, I could hear the knocking as the revs dropped past 2,800RPM.
The service department first scheduled me in for a short block overhaul. A few days after leaving my vehicle at the shop, I get a call from them telling me I need to meet with the DTM first. Apparently, many dealers had been doing the short block swaps but it didn't always solve the problem.
The DTM checks out my vehicle and agrees that I do have piston slap. He whips out a technical memo from his briefcase that pretty much lists everything you listed plus the fix using "countermeasure" pistons.
The DTM gave me the option of going with the fix but told me that the noise is harmless and will not hurt my engine. He also warned me that the new pistons may not get rid of all the noise.
I'm glad I did.
Ken
Tom
Those with forced induction, hot cams, advanced timing, or other serious mods may need higher octane.
The stock engine is pretty tame. Compression isn't too high, timing is conservative, etc.
Of course, individual engines vary. Mine has never complained and seems to be among the most fuel efficient on these boards.
-juice
Environmental conditions meaning altitude, weather, terrain (hills, mountains, plains).
The same engine in the same car of the same model year and mileage can require different octane to reach peak performance --or at the very least, avoid detonation-- even in the same part of the country. It could certainly require different octane in a different region.
If you don't believe me, read the consumer FAQ on gasoline on the American Petroleum Institute's site.
-Colin
Octane also has an emotional aspect to it. Heck, if someone *feels* like they're getting a benefit from high octance gas (regardless of if the engine really needs it), then go for it.
Ken
No prob. I've been there so I know how frustrating it can be. Let me know if you need any more info like the repair order.
Ken
87 octane: $1.50/gal = $.01724/octane
89 octane: $1.55/gal = $.01741/octane
93 octane: $1.65/gal = $.01774/octane
Therefore, 87 octane is the best deal going :-)
Okay, let's look at some other numbers; 15,000 miles per year at 20 miles per gallon. That's 750 gallons of gas. 750 x $0.15 = $112.50. So, 93 octane gas costs an extra hundred bucks a year compared to 87 octane. 89 octane costs $37.50 per year more than 87. Sure for some folks the numbers might move around a bit but the fact is that 89 octane just doesn't cost enough more than 87 to really matter. I'm certainly not going to whinge at my dealer over it.
Regards,
-wdb
So I'm buying the premium my 2.5RS seems to prefer for a lot less than you all are paying for 87. :-Þ
Start with the mfg's suggestion and work up or down in octane and see if you note a performance or economy change. If so, switch assuming you're not too tight to blow an extra $37- $112 per year. Think hard about the total cost of vehicle ownership, especially newer cars like we all have (or at least seem to discuss here) and you might conclude that $112 is nothing, if it makes your vehicle perform better in some way.
-Colin
http://www.api.org/
Dennis
-mike
I wonder if any of you can confirm this recommendation (32 psi on Forester), or should I stick to 28/29 psi as said on the door jab?
I's surely love to have a better mpg for my long trip to Vegas and back.
What about off-roading forrays? Should I lower the pressure for off-road trips in the desert? What's recommended pressure for light off-roading on dirt/unpaved/gravel roads (not rock climbing)?
I know I bumped my trooper 5 psi up and gained 4-5mpg on a recent trip (went from 14mpg->18-19mpg Yippie!)
When I auto-x I run close to 50psi in my XT6, cause on the 14" rims, I need as little sidewall give as possible!
-mike
Since Ken got his piston slap fixed under warranty with the new counterweighted pistons (longer skirts too) then that's what I would suggest. Excessive sideload is not good for longevity no matter how it's explained or justified.
-Colin
-mike
I've found that my Forester S handling started getting sloppy when I had the tires inflated to the "recommended" settings. The tires would frequently squeal when turning (especially in those parking lots!).
As I understand, car manufacturers come up with their pressure recommendations based on several factors (as we've seen with the whole Firestone/Ford recall). Ride comfort is one of them. I suspect that's what's partly behind the recommended numbers.
I've found that 32 all around works better for me for everyday driving. Handling is better and it might even attribute to better milage. 32psi is still well within the tolerances of the tire (check tire sidewalls for that info). I've found it also works fine for light off-roading too.
The thing to keep in mind is that there is no "one" tire pressure for all uses. Ideally, you should change the pressure everytime your load as well as driving application changes. For example, if you're going to be carrying 4 passengers plus cargo, the recommended settings for the rear tire go up significantly. For driving in sand or very rough road conditions, it helps to deflate them a bit. If you want to start getting technical, you can also set the front and rear tires differently for oversteer/understeer, but that's another topic.
Ken
The back one went on in a breeze (yes, it is the short one). The front one seems to be an inch or two short of a full bar since it seems impossible to fit across. I've read both the manual and the instruction sheet (about ten times!), have backed off all the bolts, have tried mounting it amidship and sliding it forward, but it doesn't want to move very much towards the front. I'm trying to mount the front rail over the pillar between the front and back doors, although the instructions seem to indicate that the crossbar could be even farther forward.
Help!!
Al
..Mike
..Mike
-Frank P.
Russ
Just rec'd my new '01 OB Lmtd 5spd. I have yet to check earlier posts, but does anyone have any comments about breaking the car in?
Any comments about what to do or what to avoid?
Appreciate your help!
-Glick
I just discovered this forum yesterday. What a great find! I just bought a 2001 OB Wagon. (I pick it up in 2 days!!) After years of gas guzzling, poor handling SUV's, I think this new car will be a great change. Here's my question. Is there an easy way to disconnect the DRL's?
On my VW, I had to almost beg the service guy, before he finally told me which fuse to pull. (It was a big one behind a pannel under the dash, not a small one in the regular fuse box.) Is there a similar solution on the Outback?
Thanks in advance!!
-mike
Well, I smelled B.S. bigtime and continued to use Shell because the more I used the credit card, the more free gas I received. Sure enough, 6 mos. later, same problem. So, twice shy, for the next three years I avoided Shell, used Chevron w/"techroline", and finally sold the car having never had a relapse. Go figure.
Regarding octane, don't the brains in cars today "learn" the correct mixture and advance settings based on knock sensors and oxygen sensors? And couldn't a car "fed" 87 octane get used to the stuff and then stutter for awhile on a new fuel?
Trying Ethyl tomorrow.
chris out
That was what they originally told be with my Golf too. But eventually I found about the fuse. I can't imagine that there isn't a similar solution to the Soob.
Last time the DRL issue came up, there was some concern that the hand-brake sensor was also linked to the ABS system, so it's probably not the best way to disable the DRL's. I'm sure there must be a fuse/relay you can pull or a wire you can snip to disable the DRL's -- nobody's figured it out yet.
Craig
Ross
Ross
Al
-mike
2000-01 Phase II 2.5 SOHC Legacy/OB
99-01 2.5RS SOHC Phase II
-mike
Didn't know that I was bringing up such a touchy subject. Sorry about that. In my line of work I drive without headlights in the "company car" sometimes even at night. It's kind of a habit to want to be able to control when my lights are, or are not, on.
..Mike
..Mike
Bonnie Rick
Conferences Manager, Edmunds.com Town Hall