Craig- Hey. I disagree with your #974, but can't prove my point. That is, I think both the 5-speed and 4EAT are REACTIVE. The Auto is not proactive (it can't adjust front-rear torque based on the low-traction condition coming up in a tenth of a second). I think they both react (very quickly) but they're reactive in nature, rather than sensing what's going to happen in a moment. Agree?
Juice Man- Hey, that's great on the 50-50 split in auto 1st and 2nd. I prefer the 5speed for day-to-day driving, and the 4EAT for the kind of steep scree-covered canyon rim stuff here in New Mexico. But, I'm really happy to learn that it's 50-50 in those first two gears, and apparently, reverse too. Thanks for the help (again).
Headlight protection: Based on good juju in one of you guys' Subie sites, I bought and installed the X-pel.com subaru headlight and parking light laminate for my 2000 OB. Easy for a patient man (or woman) to install, but I'd have a second person there to help you aim the hair dryer. The stuff is about as thick as a quarter (really thick) and theoretically distributes the spike load from a stone across the entire face of the headlight, and at the same time absorbs some energy as that quarter-thick laminate compresses. I recommend it since it can always be peeled off 5 years down the road for replacement of the laminate.
Outra vez, agradecimentos para sua ajuda. Otra vez, gracias por su ayuda. Once again, thanks for your help.
Well, from one aero engr to another, I guess the "disagree but can't prove my point" is par for the course!! Perhaps we should discuss turbulence theory next!
You're right that the auto-trans AWD system cannot adjust for low traction into the future, but what it does do is attempt to minimize any potential loss of traction when weight/power shifts during acceleration and deceleration. When it detects acceleration, it shifts torque to the rear wheels, thus minimizing the chance of wheelspin that would occur if too much power were channeled to the front wheels. And, during braking, it sends more torque up front to offset the "dive" tendency. It's not predicting any potential slippage, but rather, it's a torque management system that will improve dry-road handling. If slippage does occur, it's back into the regular "reactive" AWD mode as you noted. So I definitely agree with you!
My late lamented Honda Prelude had a side-to-side torque transfer system that distributed torque between the front wheels when cornering (it would send more torque to the outside front wheel). It totally eliminated understeer, and gave the Prelude extremely neutral handling -- the best of any FWD sports car I've driven, and better than many RWD sports cars. Anyhow, it was a concept very similar to the Active AWD in the auto-trans Subarus. Definitely a great idea that can improve dry-road handling significantly.
I believe it also records under what conditions in the past it has moved torque to the rear wheels (ie: after every stop light, if you hit the gas hard, it shifts power to the rear) and in the future, shifts the tourque before you hit the gas out of that stop light.
Well, I did my first (3000 mi) oil change this morning, and it was cake except that it took 20 minutes just to get the drain plug out!! It was in super-wicked tight (in New Englander speak). I ended up sawing a 2 ft long section of pipe off an old Yakima crossbar and using it to get a little more leverage on my wrench. That finally allowed me to "persuade" the plug to loosen up. Of course, the rest of the oil change was uneventful after the requisite "problem" was solved. Why do simple projects always turn into complicated ones??
I had the same difficulty, Craig. I decided to wrench my back instead, hehe. That's what this impatient enginerd did. BTW I think it's "supah-wicked". Oil change before work?! A man after my own heart. I was considering a wash and wax this morning but punted (haha, like I'd ever finish in under 3 hours).
I think I did wrench something in my back -- it hurts to sit up straight! I'll just spend the rest of the day on a slant, and bet my coworkers won't even be surprised. Can't be any worse then when my next door neighbor saw me this morning, duded up in old clothes with yellow dish gloves . . . .
I prefer the NHTSA's format to Alldata's. Your best bet is to live with the existing formats, write down or print out the abbreviated descriptions, then visit your dealer's shop and request to examine their TSB looseleaf book. After you've read the complete TSB that you are interested in, ask to be allowed to make a photocopy.
I had to use my biggest ratchet driver and a lot of force, and I can exert a lot of force. :-)
After that first one, the rest have been easy enough. In fact, once I apparently did not tighten the plug down enough, as I had a tiny oil leak (showed up as a few drops on the garage floor, over the course of a month or three). I should probably buy a torque wrench.
I have a 2000 Lecacy Wagon (AT) and I do my own oil changes. Looking at the archives, I found that I was not alone with having a very hard time doing the first oil change. I've never experienced a plug on that tight and almost had to give up trying to get it off. Think Subaru needs to look at the procedure for putting on these drain plugs. Anyway, on to my question which concerns Slick 50. I have added Slick 50 to all my other cars and when I asked my dealership for their opinion they would not give me one. Told me to contact the Subaru 800 number. The 800 number said that since no Subarus' have been tested using a synthetic lubricant that they too could not recommend its use and that if any engine problem could be traced back to the addition of a synthetic lubricant it could void my warranty. The 800 number also suggested I post to this forum. So I wanted to get some opinions from others on adding Slick 50 during an oil change as well as a recommendation on when to add this for the first time (i.e how many miles should be on the car).
There's a topic under the Maintenance and Repair category here on Edmunds called Engine Additives. You might want to read through the posts there and see what you come up with.
I've heard some good things about Militec-1 metal conditioner. You can read about my experiences here.
I e-mailed Militec asking the same question you have: is it ok to add it to a new motor? A Militec-1 engineer sent this reply:
Thanks for your message:
I recommend using MILITEC-1 in a new motor, since it reduces the scuffing and scoring. Your rings will still seat, providing you don't break-in the engine with a synthetic motor oil.
The same goes for the other applications, the sooner the better.
Of course the same may not be true for other additives, including Slick 50.
Say that 5 times fast. Yes, Subaru is notorious for over-torqueing bolts. Keep a torque wrench handy, with the longest handle possible.
Or get a pet Gorilla! )
Slick 50 got sued for making bogus claims and lost. They had to change their advertising, so I don't trust them.
Drive magazine's timing was indeed perfect. It cracked me up!
Is the AWD reactive or proactive?
Let's look at other systems to determine that. Many vehicles, like the CR-V, RAV4, Santa Fe, and Escape operate in FWD most of the time. When the front axle slips, the rears react and engage. Purely reactive. Ford offers a button to turn it on manually, but it's for slippery surfaces only.
Subaru sends power to both axles all the time, so in essence it's proactive by default. I believe the auto checks for things like grade and gas pedal position, so indeed it can adjust the power split before any actual slippage occurs.
Thanks to all who responded. I am new to this and do not know if I posted to the correct site/topic. Mine was no. 774. After a 700 mile trip to Vt. this weekend from the Rochester,NY area I am convinced it is the tires (Firestone Wilderness). Made 27.67 mpg round trip including mountains with about 700 lbs. load. Forgot the cd's!
Mine was tight, too. I sprained a finger loosening it! Next time I'll use a longer wrench and padded gloves.
My regular garage told me that they don't overly tighten the nut but that it get's very tight on its own after all the heating and cooling over time. He said that it was due to the combination of soft threads on one part and hard threads on the other. I forget which one has the soft threads: the oil pan or the drain plug.
Yep, I like the pro-active ones. My TOD on my Trooper does 15-30%FWD 70%-85%RWD as soon as I roll away from a light and under heavy acceleration jumps to 50/50. The computer has actually learned to give me 15% to start off with from a light or I'd spin the rear tires (even with LSD)
I know it's hokey but subaru should put in a guage like my TOD one where it shows the % to each axle of torque. It's very helpful and informative, even if not necessary...
The slickest thing about virtually ANY of the oil additives on the market is how they market snake oil to the unsuspecting. Read the owners manuals from (probably) every automobile manufacturer and they will advise AGAINST using additives. Save your money.
I have been reading elsewhere that the Firestone tires on the OB can develop temporary flat spots when the car sits around for a while, especially in the cold. Turns out the last few times I noticed sloppy steering and a jittery wheel was after my OB had a few days off (due to the weekend and carpooling) in cool weather.
Anyone else have experience with this? It never happened on any of my previous cars.
Those Firestones are definitely up for replacement. My OB sat on the lot for 6 months before I bought it, so lord knows what kind of flat spots it developed then! I honestly wouldn't be surprised to find the tires are out of round.
Juice, what led you to the Nittos? I am leaning towards Bridgestone Potenza RE-92 tires, just because I have had good experience with them on other cars.
Paul, higher pressure gave my OB a very floaty feel (I mean floatier than usual), and I went back to 33F/32R. I bet the flat spot problem would decrease with 35 psi, though.
I can't swear that its still true with today's tires, but at one time (pre-steel belts) tires with predominently nylon cord were always expected to take a "set" when parked overnight. Driving a couple of blocks made the "thump, thump, thump" from the flat spots disappear.
Nitto tires:
Try to find a dealer to warranty a defective tire if the dealers of such an uncommon brand are few and far between. I'd stick with more popular brands, with large dealer networks.
Air Pressure:
Excessive pressure could easily cause your car to "wander". The tire's cross section will be too round. This causes more wear in the center of the tread and a reduced amount of rubber on the road. The contact patch will be narrower, and handling will suffer.
I know we've already got un caballo muerto here, but I'm bellyaching about the oil drain plug removal torque. After I couldn't do it the normal way, I got out my torque wrench to quantify just how much torque was needed. No luck. My scale pegs out at 150 ft-lbs, and I figure it was close to 500 ft-lbs (4 ft cheater bar X 100 to 150 lbs of pull). This, after 20 minutes of Liquid Wrench and gentle taps on the madre.
So, to you new Subie owners who have not yet sonsumated the oil change marriage, here's some helpful advice. Instead of thinking you need to apply 500 foot-pounds of torque, it may help you think of it as 0.25 ton-feet of torque. Get a 4-foot cheater bar, and bulk up before that first change. And DON'T be gentle.
Hey SOA, this is an easy fix. You know that robot arm that puts in the oil pan drain plug? Turn down the torque setting from 500 ft-lbs to about 50.
No offense to Juice and I'm glad he likes his, but generally Nitto is to be avoided. In autocross circles the only one that's worth a darn is the NT555R "drag radial". It is more like the Yokohama A032R --a long-wearing R compound because it has very rigid sidewalls.
Why don't you guys just spring for the $20 and get the first oil change done @ a dealer or lube shop? Once it's been cracked the first time it's boat loads easier than breaking your back to get it off yourself.
Well, I thought it was just my drain plug that was tight! Subaru should definitely tell the robot to relax -- besides our aching muscles, it can't be good for the threads in the oil pan. I think using a crush washer at the factory would help too.
Looks like Michelin MXV4 tires are at the top of my list now, although they are kind of pricey ($115 from the tire rack). I'm going to see what my local Sam's club has in stock. Anybody have an opinion of these tires?
I'll keep watching this post for more recommendations on 2000 OB tires. Oddly enough I was more than satisfied with the Michelin XW4's on my 96 OB.
I have never had luck with the Bridgeston RE92 H rated. Terrible wear and dangerous in rain. Forget snow.
Always use a torque wrench on wheel lugs. Bad things can happen to rotors, wheels, balance and in some cases the 4 wheel alignment can be affected negatively wrt tracking.
Having said that I find my owners manual with a very loose spec on lug torque: 58-72 lbft. This range I have never seen in any vehicle I have owned and at best it shows a very light lower limit particularly for a 16 inch wheel with an H rated, stiff sidewall tire.
Nitto is Japanese, not related to Bridgestone/Firestone. The customer rep recommended them after I told him I no longer wanted truck tires, and instead wanted something more quiet and better on dry pavement.
They're a huge step up from the Bridgestone Desert Deulers I had before, but those were a different size and category, so that's to be expected.
Still, they carry a better temperature rating than the same-sized Firestones on the Outback, and they cost less to boot. They are much less noisy, by far the biggest noticeable change.
Still, they're a touring tire, so if you want to AutoX get summer tires and mount winter tires on a different set of rims. Touring tires are a compromise that I accept, but some may not.
Do RE92s come in that size? The wife had those and they were OK, but terrible in the snow (and didn't last). Of course it could be her V6/5 speed combo making things worse. She now has BF Goodrich Comp T/A VR4s, but I also think those do not come in 225/60R16 size.
As for flat spots, I believe the vehicles are shipped with very high pressure, and the dealer is supposed to air them down. That would avoid flat spots, but some have said they received cars with very high pressure, so some dealers forget that step.
Crush washer - I think that's what they use, actually. Mine was flat as a pancake! So much so that I didn't even realize it was there! Make sure you get the OE oil filter, which comes with a new washer, every time you change the oil. Jiffy Lube probably skips this step, but I'd avoid them for different reasons.
I have approx 8000 miles on my 00 OB and lately, I have been noticing squeaking coming from my brakes. At first it would only occur at very low speeds, ie. when I was backing out of my garage, and when I partially released the brake. Today, I braked harder than usual at a the first stop after I pulled out of my driveway and heard the squeaking during the hard braking. Only lasted for about 1.5 seconds.
I'm not a maniac driver, nor do I consider myself hard on brakes. The original brakes on my last car lasted me about 55,000 miles.
I'm going to book an appt with my dealer. Any other OB owners experience premature brake noise?
There wasn't a factory crush washer on my OB -- I made sure to check just in case it was stuck to the pan. Nada! I did put one on with the new filter, however (ordered a whole boatload from Darlene), and snugged the plug down until it compressed the washer. That's the good thing about the crush washer -- properly used, it should prevent you from over-tightening the plug. They should get the factory robot to use them!
Our '00 OB has about 2500 miles on it now. I have heard that 'squeak' (it sounds more like a light whine) almost every morning since Sept. during the first couple of stops I make. Once the brakes 'warm-up' from a couple of stops, the noise ceases. It's not a scraping or grinding noise. And it only 'squeaks' at the end of the stop - not the whole time the brake pedal is applied.
Personally, I think it's just the residue and moisture that collects overnight on the rotor. It seems like it only has been doing it since the temps at night started dipping below 50 degrees.
Visual inspection of the rotors (through the rims) show no gouges or weird scrapes. The surfaces feel smooth.
My commute is a rather short one (3 miles one way). So, I think that the 'lack' of use might also be a factor. Maybe I need to go cruise up to 60 and give the brakes a good squeeze a couple of times.
Again, as I've said before, I'm no expert. I could be wrong about all of this. Should luck11 and I be worried?
I checked around, and the following Michelins are recommended as H-rated OEM replacements for the 2000 OB (prices shown from Tire Rack):
Energy MXV4+ (400AA, all-season touring, $120) Energy MXV4 (340AA, all-season touring, $115) Pilot XGTH4 (400AA, all-season performance, $89)
They have various other choices with higher/lower speed ratings and different sizing, but these were the only direct matches.
Anyone have comments regarding performance versus touring? Both the MXV4+ touring tires and the XGTH4 performance tires make vague claims about wet/snow traction, so I don't think one is better than the other in that regard. Besides price, what would be the compelling reason to choose one over the other for an Outback (ie, not a sports car)?
Juice, you are right -- the RE92's don't come in the right size. The RE930 does, but doesn't look like the right tire for the OB.
I also have a '97 Legacy, and I have 52k on the original brakes and they sometimes squeek on my stop out of the driveway (gentle breaking). The Subaru owner, who had a job in a auto part store for years, (this may be an old wives tale) said that Subaru puts in "hard" brakes, which last longer but sometimes squeek. He also told me that Mercadies never wants the brakes to squeek so they make "soft" pads that need frequent replacement.
Craig, go to the aptly named "tires" topic in Maint&Repair and list all. Search in your browser (Cntrl-F) for those Michelins. I have seen some major discussions going on there about them, but since I don't buy that type of tire I never learned whatever it was they were recommending.
I did some research on the tires you mentioned and even called Michellin to see which would offer better snow/wet traction. They didn't give me a clear answer, however.
Basically, the MXV4 will offer a quiter ride. It's used on luxury vehicles like BMWs and Benzs. The tread pattern on the MXV4 is pretty closely spaced so I would think it would do better on ice. The Pilots have a more aggressive tread pattern so I would imagine it would do better in snow.
I found that there really isn't any tire that does everything well. It's all about tradeoffs. Excelling in one area usuall comprimising performance in another.
As for myself, I just went back to the Yokohama Geolandars I had. I personally like Yokohama and I was satisfied with the Geolandars wet/dry performance.
Tirerack has some user opinion surveys on each tire. You might want to check them out too.
Warming up the brakes sounds like a good idea. At least apply them gently as you pull out of your driveway to clean them off. This is especially true the day after you wash the car - my Escort's would rust like crazy.
I think the Energy label on Michelins is for low rolling resistance tires. That's great for fuel economy, but I imagine you'd be giving up some traction.
Sounds like your father's '97 Legacy had some corroded or "frozen" pistons in the brake calipers. If so, they wouldn't release properly when he removes his foot from the brake pedal. It's like driving with your foot constantly on the brakes, resulting in premature wear of the pads. Its worth checking.
The dealer rotated my tires at 7500 miles on my 2000 OB. About 500 miles later the steering wheel started to vibrate when applying the brakes. I checked the torque on each lug nut and the settings were anywhere from 65 to 150 lbs.
I insisted that the dealer replace the rotors and that the shop foreman oversee the torquing of the lugs. When I returned home and checked the settings the lugs were in the 70 to 75 range.
150 lb-ft is way too high for the rims. That could even damage them.
I'm due, so I'll be doing that pretty soon.
That brake issue also means I'll be cleaning the entire system when I rotate the tires (even though mine never seem to squeek). I'll take photos if there's anything worth looking at.
Vince: there's one more reason I stay away from the dealer. What knuckleheads. Properly used, air wrenches are OK, but they can do lots of damage in the hands of a lazy gorilla.
I've had a bad experience servicing my old Loyale at Oakland dealership. It was while back though, and ever since I stayed with independent mechanic. However, my old mechanic has retired, and I had to switch to a new guy... don't know him well enough to decide if I can trust him with my new Forester.
With 7.5K service and tire rotation approaching, I'm looking for recommendations where to service new Soob in the Bay Area. Recommendations of independent mechanics who ARE knowledgeable of Subarus (most aren't) will be appreciated as well!
Or maybe I just need to drive my little boy to DC so that he can meet Sandy... Juice, how much you charge for labor? ;-)
Vince -- What happens when you over-torque lug nuts other than making it impossible to remove? Do you know how far you need to over-torque a lug nut before it makes a difference? The reason why I ask is that I just had my new Geolandars put back on and the local tire shop (America's Tire Comapany/Discount Tire) gave me a receipt that indicated 85lbs. Previously, their print-outs indicated 75lbs. I haven't had a chance to ask the store manager about that one.
kate5000 -- I'd like to know the answer to that one too. However, at 7.5K miles, you really only need an oil change and tire rotation. That can be easily done by yourself (if you're handy) or at any local shop. Chances are, a local Subaru dealer will overcharge you by making the 7.5K service look a lot more extensive. The big one is at 30K miles.
Personally, I've only dealt with Carlsen and Stevens Creek. I wouldn't call either very good. I've gotten to know one of the service managers at Stevens Creek (plus it's close to my office) so I tend to use them. They'll do just an oil change (and nothing else) for $20. Combine that with a tire rotation for $20 and you're done with your 7.5K mile service.
Comments
Juice Man- Hey, that's great on the 50-50 split in auto 1st and 2nd. I prefer the 5speed for day-to-day driving, and the 4EAT for the kind of steep scree-covered canyon rim stuff here in New Mexico. But, I'm really happy to learn that it's 50-50 in those first two gears, and apparently, reverse too. Thanks for the help (again).
Headlight protection: Based on good juju in one of you guys' Subie sites, I bought and installed the X-pel.com subaru headlight and parking light laminate for my 2000 OB. Easy for a patient man (or woman) to install, but I'd have a second person there to help you aim the hair dryer. The stuff is about as thick as a quarter (really thick) and theoretically distributes the spike load from a stone across the entire face of the headlight, and at the same time absorbs some energy as that quarter-thick laminate compresses. I recommend it since it can always be peeled off 5 years down the road for replacement of the laminate.
Outra vez, agradecimentos para sua ajuda.
Otra vez, gracias por su ayuda.
Once again, thanks for your help.
-psycho
You're right that the auto-trans AWD system cannot adjust for low traction into the future, but what it does do is attempt to minimize any potential loss of traction when weight/power shifts during acceleration and deceleration. When it detects acceleration, it shifts torque to the rear wheels, thus minimizing the chance of wheelspin that would occur if too much power were channeled to the front wheels. And, during braking, it sends more torque up front to offset the "dive" tendency. It's not predicting any potential slippage, but rather, it's a torque management system that will improve dry-road handling. If slippage does occur, it's back into the regular "reactive" AWD mode as you noted. So I definitely agree with you!
My late lamented Honda Prelude had a side-to-side torque transfer system that distributed torque between the front wheels when cornering (it would send more torque to the outside front wheel). It totally eliminated understeer, and gave the Prelude extremely neutral handling -- the best of any FWD sports car I've driven, and better than many RWD sports cars. Anyhow, it was a concept very similar to the Active AWD in the auto-trans Subarus. Definitely a great idea that can improve dry-road handling significantly.
Craig
-mike
Craig
..Mike
..Mike
Craig
From all of my research, youv'e pretty much tapped out the TSB resources by checking NHTSA and Alldata. Here's another, but it is very limited:
http://www.motorage.com/tsb/
I prefer the NHTSA's format to Alldata's. Your best bet is to live with the existing formats, write down or print out the abbreviated descriptions, then visit your dealer's shop and request to examine their TSB looseleaf book. After you've read the complete TSB that you are interested in, ask to be allowed to make a photocopy.
Anyone else?
..Mike
..Mike
I had to use my biggest ratchet driver and a lot of force, and I can exert a lot of force. :-)
After that first one, the rest have been easy enough. In fact, once I apparently did not tighten the plug down enough, as I had a tiny oil leak (showed up as a few drops on the garage floor, over the course of a month or three). I should probably buy a torque wrench.
Chris
Chuck
There's a topic under the Maintenance and Repair category here on Edmunds called Engine Additives. You might want to read through the posts there and see what you come up with.
I've heard some good things about Militec-1 metal conditioner. You can read about my experiences here.
I e-mailed Militec asking the same question you have: is it ok to add it to a new motor? A Militec-1 engineer sent this reply:
Thanks for your message:
I recommend using MILITEC-1 in a new
motor, since it reduces the scuffing
and scoring. Your rings will still seat,
providing you don't break-in the
engine with a synthetic motor oil.
The same goes for the other applications,
the sooner the better.
Of course the same may not be true for other additives, including Slick 50.
-gvmelbrty
Say that 5 times fast. Yes, Subaru is notorious for over-torqueing bolts. Keep a torque wrench handy, with the longest handle possible.
Or get a pet Gorilla!
Slick 50 got sued for making bogus claims and lost. They had to change their advertising, so I don't trust them.
Drive magazine's timing was indeed perfect. It cracked me up!
Is the AWD reactive or proactive?
Let's look at other systems to determine that. Many vehicles, like the CR-V, RAV4, Santa Fe, and Escape operate in FWD most of the time. When the front axle slips, the rears react and engage. Purely reactive. Ford offers a button to turn it on manually, but it's for slippery surfaces only.
Subaru sends power to both axles all the time, so in essence it's proactive by default. I believe the auto checks for things like grade and gas pedal position, so indeed it can adjust the power split before any actual slippage occurs.
To me, that qualifies as proactive.
-juice
Mine was no. 774.
After a 700 mile trip to Vt. this weekend from the Rochester,NY area I am convinced it is the tires (Firestone Wilderness).
Made 27.67 mpg round trip including mountains with about 700 lbs. load.
Forgot the cd's!
I sprained a finger loosening it!
Next time I'll use a longer wrench and padded gloves.
My regular garage told me that they don't overly tighten the nut but that it get's very tight on its own after all the heating and cooling over time. He said that it was due to the combination of soft threads on one part and hard threads on the other. I forget which one has the soft threads: the oil pan or the drain plug.
-mike
Discount Tire Direct carries them.
Your mileage sounds good!
paisan: by the same standards, the Trooper also has active AWD.
-juice
-mike
I guess Subaru is catering to a buyer that just wants the traction and doesn't necessarily care how it is obtained.
-juice
The slickest thing about virtually ANY of the oil additives on the market is how they market snake oil to the unsuspecting. Read the owners manuals from (probably) every automobile manufacturer and they will advise AGAINST using additives. Save your money.
Any info on company; not familiar with them at all.
My luck: Bridgestone/Firestone branding trick.
Price at Discount Tire looks good.
Found 46 other matches for size in Q,T and H speed rating at TireRack.
Called another dealer. Guess what: he says "no soob leaves here without 35psi in all Wilderness OB tires."
Does not improve steering feel of excessive feedback at low speed.
Anyone else have experience with this? It never happened on any of my previous cars.
Those Firestones are definitely up for replacement. My OB sat on the lot for 6 months before I bought it, so lord knows what kind of flat spots it developed then! I honestly wouldn't be surprised to find the tires are out of round.
Juice, what led you to the Nittos? I am leaning towards Bridgestone Potenza RE-92 tires, just because I have had good experience with them on other cars.
Paul, higher pressure gave my OB a very floaty feel (I mean floatier than usual), and I went back to 33F/32R. I bet the flat spot problem would decrease with 35 psi, though.
Did the dealer say why they use 35psi?
Craig
I can't swear that its still true with today's tires, but at one time (pre-steel belts) tires with predominently nylon cord were always expected to take a "set" when parked overnight. Driving a couple of blocks made the "thump, thump, thump" from the flat spots disappear.
Nitto tires:
Try to find a dealer to warranty a defective tire if the dealers of such an uncommon brand are few and far between. I'd stick with more popular brands, with large dealer networks.
Air Pressure:
Excessive pressure could easily cause your car to "wander". The tire's cross section will be too round. This causes more wear in the center of the tread and a reduced amount of rubber on the road. The contact patch will be narrower, and handling will suffer.
So, to you new Subie owners who have not yet sonsumated the oil change marriage, here's some helpful advice. Instead of thinking you need to apply 500 foot-pounds of torque, it may help you think of it as 0.25 ton-feet of torque. Get a 4-foot cheater bar, and bulk up before that first change. And DON'T be gentle.
Hey SOA, this is an easy fix. You know that robot arm that puts in the oil pan drain plug? Turn down the torque setting from 500 ft-lbs to about 50.
-su amigo de Nuevo Mexico, psycho
-Colin
-mike
aka the lazy 20 something
Looks like Michelin MXV4 tires are at the top of my list now, although they are kind of pricey ($115 from the tire rack). I'm going to see what my local Sam's club has in stock. Anybody have an opinion of these tires?
Craig
LOL, psycho! Glad to hear I wasn't the only one.
..Mike
..Mike
I have never had luck with the Bridgeston RE92 H rated. Terrible wear and dangerous in rain. Forget snow.
Always use a torque wrench on wheel lugs. Bad things can happen to rotors, wheels, balance and in some cases the 4 wheel alignment can be affected negatively wrt tracking.
Having said that I find my owners manual with a very loose spec on lug torque: 58-72 lbft. This range I have never seen in any vehicle I have owned and at best it shows a very light lower limit particularly for a 16 inch wheel with an H rated, stiff sidewall tire.
I also thought that the torque "range" was odd, and the lower torque limit seems too low, at least compared to the 80 ft-lb setting for my Honda.
I have been setting my wrench to 65 ft-lb for the Soob. No telling what the dealer does.
Craig
-Colin
They're a huge step up from the Bridgestone Desert Deulers I had before, but those were a different size and category, so that's to be expected.
Still, they carry a better temperature rating than the same-sized Firestones on the Outback, and they cost less to boot. They are much less noisy, by far the biggest noticeable change.
Still, they're a touring tire, so if you want to AutoX get summer tires and mount winter tires on a different set of rims. Touring tires are a compromise that I accept, but some may not.
Do RE92s come in that size? The wife had those and they were OK, but terrible in the snow (and didn't last). Of course it could be her V6/5 speed combo making things worse. She now has BF Goodrich Comp T/A VR4s, but I also think those do not come in 225/60R16 size.
As for flat spots, I believe the vehicles are shipped with very high pressure, and the dealer is supposed to air them down. That would avoid flat spots, but some have said they received cars with very high pressure, so some dealers forget that step.
Crush washer - I think that's what they use, actually. Mine was flat as a pancake! So much so that I didn't even realize it was there! Make sure you get the OE oil filter, which comes with a new washer, every time you change the oil. Jiffy Lube probably skips this step, but I'd avoid them for different reasons.
-juice
I'm not a maniac driver, nor do I consider myself hard on brakes. The original brakes on my last car lasted me about 55,000 miles.
I'm going to book an appt with my dealer. Any other OB owners experience premature brake noise?
thanks
luck11
Craig
Personally, I think it's just the residue and moisture that collects overnight on the rotor. It seems like it only has been doing it since the temps at night started dipping below 50 degrees.
Visual inspection of the rotors (through the rims) show no gouges or weird scrapes. The surfaces feel smooth.
My commute is a rather short one (3 miles one way). So, I think that the 'lack' of use might also be a factor. Maybe I need to go cruise up to 60 and give the brakes a good squeeze a couple of times.
Again, as I've said before, I'm no expert. I could be wrong about all of this. Should luck11 and I be worried?
-brian/subearu
Energy MXV4+ (400AA, all-season touring, $120)
Energy MXV4 (340AA, all-season touring, $115)
Pilot XGTH4 (400AA, all-season performance, $89)
They have various other choices with higher/lower speed ratings and different sizing, but these were the only direct matches.
Anyone have comments regarding performance versus touring? Both the MXV4+ touring tires and the XGTH4 performance tires make vague claims about wet/snow traction, so I don't think one is better than the other in that regard. Besides price, what would be the compelling reason to choose one over the other for an Outback (ie, not a sports car)?
Juice, you are right -- the RE92's don't come in the right size. The RE930 does, but doesn't look like the right tire for the OB.
Craig
-mike
-Colin
I did some research on the tires you mentioned and even called Michellin to see which would offer better snow/wet traction. They didn't give me a clear answer, however.
Basically, the MXV4 will offer a quiter ride. It's used on luxury vehicles like BMWs and Benzs. The tread pattern on the MXV4 is pretty closely spaced so I would think it would do better on ice. The Pilots have a more aggressive tread pattern so I would imagine it would do better in snow.
I found that there really isn't any tire that does everything well. It's all about tradeoffs. Excelling in one area usuall comprimising performance in another.
As for myself, I just went back to the Yokohama Geolandars I had. I personally like Yokohama and I was satisfied with the Geolandars wet/dry performance.
Tirerack has some user opinion surveys on each tire. You might want to check them out too.
Ken
Craig
I think the Energy label on Michelins is for low rolling resistance tires. That's great for fuel economy, but I imagine you'd be giving up some traction.
-juice
Sounds like your father's '97 Legacy had some corroded or "frozen" pistons in the brake calipers. If so, they wouldn't release properly when he removes his foot from the brake pedal. It's like driving with your foot constantly on the brakes, resulting in premature wear of the pads. Its worth checking.
I insisted that the dealer replace the rotors and that the shop foreman oversee the torquing of the lugs. When I returned home and checked the settings the lugs were in the 70 to 75 range.
Future tire rotations will be done in my garage.
Vince
I'm due, so I'll be doing that pretty soon.
That brake issue also means I'll be cleaning the entire system when I rotate the tires (even though mine never seem to squeek). I'll take photos if there's anything worth looking at.
-juice
Craig
With 7.5K service and tire rotation approaching, I'm looking for recommendations where to service new Soob in the Bay Area. Recommendations of independent mechanics who ARE knowledgeable of Subarus (most aren't) will be appreciated as well!
Or maybe I just need to drive my little boy to DC so that he can meet Sandy... Juice, how much you charge for labor? ;-)
Of course, the trip is long enough that you'd have to rotate the tires again when you got back home!
-juice
kate5000 -- I'd like to know the answer to that one too. However, at 7.5K miles, you really only need an oil change and tire rotation. That can be easily done by yourself (if you're handy) or at any local shop. Chances are, a local Subaru dealer will overcharge you by making the 7.5K service look a lot more extensive. The big one is at 30K miles.
Personally, I've only dealt with Carlsen and Stevens Creek. I wouldn't call either very good. I've gotten to know one of the service managers at Stevens Creek (plus it's close to my office) so I tend to use them. They'll do just an oil change (and nothing else) for $20. Combine that with a tire rotation for $20 and you're done with your 7.5K mile service.
Ken