My Forester is fine, even better now with the SPT short shift lever, but my '91 Escort GT had the same problem.
I found that applying force didn't help matters at all. The thing was to ease it in slowly, sometimes wiggle it a bit. Or the back to neutral and try again method.
The good news is my Escort never had any tranny failures - it was just very notchy.
You may want to consider a short shift lever. The stock unit has rubber isolators that creates some "play" in the linkage, and though it's supposed to reduce vibes I haven't noticed any change without it.
The catch is the SPT kit is expensive ($200), since it's meant to replace the entire shift linkage on the Impreza, and only the shift lever fits in the Forester.
You can also get urethane bushings ($25) for the linkage under the vehicle, but that's a lot of work to install.
Bill: I'd check the tire pressure to make sure it's not too low or too high. Yours in an open front differential, so all it takes is one of the tires slipping, and all the power will leak to that "path of least resistance".
Goodyear skatorbacks, perhaps?
Solution: an LSD or AWD. Or both, like the GT and Outback have.
First of all, this is not a stock 5MT subaru transmission. The gears are hardened and enlarged-- it's the BPM gearset that several vendors resell.
Anyway, the top shaft is the layshaft. On the right of it (as pictured) is where the clutch attaches and makes contact with the flywheel. The mainshaft is below it and it drives the front differential (shown lower right) and the center differential (not shown, would be opposite end of the shaft, outside of tranny case).
When gears are selected, the gear pairs along the layshaft and mainshaft mate resulting in torque to the wheels. Starting from the right on the layshaft is first gear. The small gear immediately behind it is reverse. (Normally there would be brass synchronizer gears but this gearset does not use them.)
The two easiest ways to engage reverse are to go into first gear and then reverse, sometimes even allowing the clutch to engage while in 1st. The other way is to blip the gas before attempting to select reverse. Both solutions match the speed of the layshaft to that of the mainshaft.
And of course, NEVER attempt to place the vehicle in reverse unless it is *completely* stopped. The stock reverse gear is larger and more robust than what's pictured above, but it still should be obvious that it will crunch hard.
You're correct, the last few days of mist and rain have prompted me to post my questions. And thanks for the offer of the test drive next month. I may take you up on that.
Mike T.
I've always liked the Goodyears but you never know. I sort of want to hold off on new tires because I hope to buy a new car next spring. I bought my Legacy used with 57k miles. It had a set of Cornell tires and I had the same problems in wet start-ups.
A broader question for all of you is, are the Subaru clutches adjustable? My experience has been that it's a very fine line between stalling and spinning with my clutch. As I said before, I'm no novice to driving manual transmissions. I guess I like the heavier release of VWs and my wife's Infiniti G20.
The first thing one notices about the Legacy GT is its handling. No, it's not like a stiff sports car with a go-kart character that rattles your bones. Instead it has a refined smooth feeling of sure-footedness.
Also read the last two paragraphs under "Final Word".
Tough to say where the clutch take-up point is. Probably more than halfway; I'll pay attention on the drive home tonight and confirm.
No argument about having good tires. Tread depth still seems good on the Regattas and I've probably driven 50k on them.
Mike-
Good article on the GT in New Car Test Drive. I'll definitely test drive the GT and Outback before the big purchase. My friend has a y2k Outback Limited with auto. I've actually driven it and liked it, though I do prefer the "cleaner" lines of the GT.
Tread depth isn't the only thing. After 50k miles, any set of tires should be pretty hard due to all the heat cycles.
At a more extreme level, that's why I don't care if I wear out summer tires once a year-- even if there were tread left, it would be harder and less grippy than when new.
I was surprised to find mine were still soft. Of course, they carried a tread wear rating of just 180, so they were that way to begin with.
They were never grippy so I wouldn't have noticed a difference!
Though they wore evenly for the most part, the very outer edges of the tread were more worn from cornering hard. I'll have to see if the new ones do the same.
Mike, nice find on that review. Those last two paragraphs pretty much sum it up for me. I *loved* my old Peugeot 505 Turbo, with its rear wheel drive and excellent road manners - almost always. That car was *awful* in the snow, even with full-on snow tires and weight in the trunk. The Subie gives me great road manners all the time, in any condition.
Bill, do yourself an immense favor. Drive the OB first, then the GT. I guarantee you'll walk away asking yourself how much you really really need that silly little extra inch of ground clearance.
I tend to get long tread life out of my tires, but you're right on about the rubber getting hard. That was the issue in the Cornell tires that I replaced prior to the Goodyears. There was tread left on the Cornells but they didn't grip well. It looks like the same is true now of the Goodyears.
Of course, the logical move is to buy that new car now instead of buying new tires for the 93 Legacy Time for those test drives WDB.
Actually, my dear wife has given her blessing about getting a new Subaru. It looks as if baby number 2 will arrive next Spring so we want the improved side impact protection of the new Subies. We have our daughter's seat in the middle but she will be moving to the side when number 2 comes. This just reminded me of another thread. Subaru parents out there, have you had trouble using the center lap belt to tighten a child car seat? I've had to twist the latch a couple of times to get it to sit lower. Otherwise, the belt clip rests on the child seat making it difficult to clamp. I am pleased that model year 2000 and beyond have the 3-point belt in the center.
FYI - Subaru has been very active with recent government activities for safe child seat installation. All dealers have been provide with instructions on proper seat installation. Why don't you stop by your dealer and have them take a look at your seat set up to make sure it is okay? If they run into a problem, our tech. support team has instructions on how to help them.
Need to get opinions from any other Forester owner who may have had there Forester suffer from from engine ping. If so what was done to remedy the problem and if a dealer was involved to correct it what did they do. My wifes 99 Forester suffers from a slight ping on acceleration but upon de-acceleration it sounds like a coffee can with marbles in it. Dealer has been no help even when he went for a ride and heard it but since computer shows no error code they can't fix it. This has been going on since we bought this. Any help would be appreciated.
Bill: I do the same thing on my Forester. Twist the center lap belt buckle, that is. Consumer Reports recommended it, and it works like a charm.
If you have/get a '99 or older Soob, many models allow you to retrofit tether anchors. Those are great - they keep the seat from moving forward and secure it nicely. The 2000 and later models have it standard.
Patti: a follow-up question - when are the Isofix anchors going to appear? VW and Volvo offer them.
Hugo: that sounds serious enough to warrant a visit to the dealer ASAP. That's certainly an anomaly.
the logical move is to buy that new car now instead of buying new tires for the 93 Legacy
LOL. Spoken like a true enthusiast, Bill!
have you had trouble using the center lap belt to tighten a child car seat?
Yes, it's a royal pain. I lean into the child seat with my knee to compress the seat squab/base, grunt, complain, and finally muscle it in. Your solution to twist the center lap belt latch sounds like a good idea. I have the problem on my 93 Civic as well (yet another problem with all of MY93? Since we had our 2nd child, each sits in an outboard seat (not much room for dueling, adjacent child seats, not to mention the match of wits between the two occupants).
Here's my tip: get the long end of the belt to the right length, which is *just* over the edge of the seat so it points down, then use a locking clip. You only have to do that once.
From then on, just twist the base of the buckle, and use the knee to lower the seat like Mike suggested. Click. Secured.
Yup - you all are right! The knee into the seat is key. One thing to think about. Some seats are just not right for a passenger car. Occasionally, the super deluxe huge and heavy model looks good, but it just doesn't fit in a passenger car. Most major retailers will let you try different car seats in your vehicle. If they don't, shop elsewhere.
Last I heard, we should have the anchors in y2k2 vehicles. Since we are very involved in the testing process, I don't think it will be long. One thing that can delay a decision is considerations like retro-fitting. I'll keep you posted.
Patti's right - you can test-fit child seats. Both Buy Buy Baby and Babies R Us let me do it, though I didn't always get the help I wanted from their staff.
I had bought a tether anchor a couple of years ago to go with my daughter's seat. It definitely makes the installation rock solid but I've been loathe to ever remove the seat because of the center lap buckle gymnastics. I seem to be getting better at it though. I like the isometric workout where my knee is in the seat and my back is pressed against the ceiling.
Juice: Good to know that Consumer Reports endorsed the solution of twisting the lap buckle. It had been my wife's idea to do that and she was amused to hear that CR said the same thing.
I think she is amused in general that I am communicating with y'all. I assure her that it means less time that I'll talk Subarus with her. She seemed pleased by that. She likes the cars but it's not her thing to talk about them.
I have a brass tire pressure gauge, and love it. It's pretty much a no-name brand, but it works like a charm, and I think I got it at Pep Boys or Trak Auto. It's the round type, rather than pencil shaped.
My pump is the upright kind, not a foot pump.
Yes, good pumps are suitable. I've seen Drew post photos of MLs being aired up after off road forays.
I have a brass tire pressure gauge, got it at PepBoys. It has a straight plug that goes onto the valvestem, a dial indicator and a bleeder button. Really nice, you just pump it up more than full and then bleed off to your desired level. $12 I think.
This is a copy of a message that I sent to SOA today, but while I'm waiting for their official response, I'd also appreciate getting inputs and insights from some of you Edmunds Townhall Subaru Crew experts:
"I've read the following for several years and would like some clarification:
"Manual transmission models have a viscous-coupling locking center differential. Automatic transmission models have an electronically managed continuously variable transfer clutch."
Aside from the question of whether I prefer a 5-speed or an automatic transmission, why would I want one or the other transfer system? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each type?"
Drawtite sells a Class 2 hitch that fits a Forester using existing holes. Does anyone know if the Forester is pre-wired for a hitch? Is there any advantage--cost or quality--in factory ordering a hitch versus after market?
One main difference is the front/rear split. On the 5-speed, the default is 50/50. It vary from 90/10 - 10/90. The automatic default in "drive" is 90/10 and can go up to 50/50. IMHO, the 5-speed is *slightly* better in slippery situations (driving with a heavy foot in the rain :-) ). I wouldn't let this be a factor in choosing transmissions though, because they're both excellent. I think subaru.com goes further into detail about this. Dennis
I recently noticed those horrible "crack -- creak -- crack" noises that people had mentioned, and sure enough, the little plastic switches were all gunky. Rather than using lithium grease, though, I tried bicycle chain lube. This stuff is designed to shed dirt -- after all, where do people take mountain bikes, and what gets in their chains?
Anyway, I cleaned off the parts, applied some "White Lightning" bike-chain lube, and so far all is well. Maybe in another 10k miles I will know how well the dirt-shedding properties really work. :-)
Barry: the manual's viscous coupling is simple. The center diffy has a fluid that locks up when the two axles spin at different speeds, because of the heat that creates. It's split 50/50 full time. Pros include low cost, effective traction. Cons include lower EPA city mileage.
The auto's system runs 50/50 in 1st, 2nd, and reverse, and 90/10 in other gears, but can vary that according to the situation. Pros include better efficiency (for an auto), sophisticated design. Cons include higher production cost.
But in reality the trannies themselves will make a bigger difference. The manual gives you better control and is slightly quicker. The auto is better suited for towing and driving off road, since you don't have to slip the clutch.
I'd pick by the tranny I prefer, not by the AWD system. Both are very effective.
The factory hitch is a Class I, rated for 2000 lbs towing and a 200 lb tongue weight. I've towed 700 lbs and put about 100 lbs on the tongue, and it worked like a charm. It costs about $200, but I installed it myself. You have to remove some exhaust hooks and it required elbow grease, so get a good torque wrench for leverage. I ordered the hitch from Darlene.
Pros include a clean, custom fit (you barely even see it), all hardware included, piece of mind. Plus now you have instructions. It also comes with a custom-fit wiring harness, and a grommet to seal the hole in the spare tire well where the wiring pokes out.
The Draw Tite I saw installed stuck out from the bottom a bit more, so it didn't look as clean and may hurt your angle of departure if you off road. Its advatange is the price; you could probably have it installed for less. I can't say if the harness is included, or if the grommet they provide creates a good seal.
Look at my photos - it shows the pre-wiring for the harness, as well as the entire procedure. Good luck.
Juice Man (Homem Do Suco??) Hey. Where'd you learn that the 4EAT splits torque 50-50 front to rear in first and second gears? From a good, reliable source, like a shop manual? Reason I ask: Subie shop mechanics told me it was 90-10 (front to reaR), and only went to 50-50 in grim circumstances. They also said that on very poor traction surfaces, and steep grades, that the AUTO can go steeper and sliprier than the 5-speed because the manual's center differential shifts back and forth, quickly, in minimal traction, and you eventually lose purchase. What do you think of those comments?
By the way Blane, I took my 2000 OB 4EAT Auto on some moderately steep, scree covered primitive trails two weeks ago on an archaeological trip. The first day, I was on some really grim stuff, the second day, just primitive dirt roads, with good traction. Not even the slightest hesitation or detection of the auto system engaging, which I know it must have done on at least two 200-meter segments. [That is, unless Juice Man is right, and it was ALREADY in 50-50 4WD. Hmmm. His answers have always been right...] I think the manual is probably better in daily use, because it's already a true 50-50 4WD system. But I chose the auto for two reasons, I can creep at ultra-slow speeds easily (which I had to do 5 weeks ago over piled softball-size stones) and because at the extreme low-traction condition, it's superior to the 5-speed (as I understand it). The flip side is it's inferior to the manual in moderate-traction rainy road, snowy road conditions.
This is getting interesting. I guess I'll wait on the sidelines while others duke it out over the 50-50 / 90-10 front-rear split. Great comments though.
psycho: I believe it was from a detailed technical explanation from the Subaru web site. Anyone have that URL handy?
They advertise 90/10 because that's where it is most of the time. You're only in 1st and 2nd for very short periods to get up to speed.
On steep inclines, I agree that the auto would be better. I have to slip the clutch and could potentially break traction and spin the wheels. The auto allows you to gradually increase power without stalling.
Auto is aslo better for towing, again because I'd have to slip the clutch a bit.
But manual has the edge in control, and in reducing understeer on high speed turns, since in those situations the auto would start in 90/10 and have to adjust.
Here's a scenario. Imagine you're driving down a very long, windy down hill, and want to use engine braking. I can choose 4th or 3rd, and get even braking from all four wheels.
Even if you select "3" manually with the automatic, the front wheels are burdened with 90% of the braking, at least at first. Going down to "2" would give too low a gear.
I was hoping to sit on the sidelines too, but the AWD system in the 5-spd OB can definitely do more than a 40/60 split!! It is 50/50 normally (which is great for all around balance during acceleration and braking), and can go up to something like a 10/90 or 90/10 split -- I don't know the exact numbers, but it is an inherent characteristic of the viscous coupling to re-channel almost all of the torque when one output shaft slips.
Another important thing about the auto-trans models is that they will proactively shift torque front to back to compensate for acceleration and decceleration, which is pretty cool. The 5-spd models only shift torque when slippage occurs.
There is a good description of the Subaru AWD systems here, but it doesn't go into detail. Maybe Patti can give us the exact torque split numbers.
Let's ignore the marketing-speak for a while, and take a close look at the manual's VC (viscous coupling).
How does it work? Power is routed 50/50 by default, with a limited-slip center differential. It's filled with a fluid that heats up when either axle turns faster than the other. That temporarily locks the axles so they turn at the same speed.
Now this sounds like POWER is always split 50/50, but that's not true. They do turn at the same SPEED, but if both front tires are on a frictionless surface and they both spin, it actually uses almost ZERO power once the center diffy locks.
If the front axle got 50% of the power, then it would continue to spin like crazy on the ice! But power isn't allowed to leak out like that once the diffy locks.
So ignore the hype. The manual can send virtually 100% of the power to the axle that isn't spinning. Maybe 95%, but certainly not just 50%.
It's fun to talk theory, but in practice either system pretty much offers the best traction the tires can come up with. Only Blizzaks or studs would do any better.
I agree with Craig.....there's no way that the 5MT is limited to only a 60/40 split.
The TCM monitors (Intelligent control) on the 4EAT are an excellent feature and close the handling gap with the 5MT but still wouldn't help in the scenario that Juice provided.
Had a 96 OB. Very pleased. Ordered one of the first 2000 OB/Ltd. Not pleased. Have experienced (at low speed) feeling every pebble in the road with the new one. 10,000 mi on the odo. Dealer has balanced wheels, alignment, rotated tires and checked out several times all to no avail. Thought it was a CV joint, strut tower etc. again to no avail. Never had this in the 96. It seems like something is loose or transmitting too much feedback through steering wheel. Any help out there? Thanks very much.
You've probably checked this, but are the tires over-inflated?
My dad's 2001 is pretty isolated, so it does sounds like an irregularity. Ask the dealer to drive a new model and yours back-to-back to try and feel a difference.
My 2000 OB feels the same exact way, and I'm half thinking it is the tires. In my case, I have noticed that it really varies with the road surface quite a bit, and I think tires are the only thing that could cause that. On a recent trip, certain sections of highway really made the steering wheel feel sloppy, while it was fine in other cases.
At low speed, the steering wheel will twitch and react to road irregularities quite a bit. I agree, it feels loose and has more kickback/feedback than I'd like. There is also the annoying 'knock/rattle' many of us have experienced on rough roads/bumps, and I wonder if that may have something to do with it. I don't have any suggestions to offer, but I certainly think Subaru could firm-up the steering and dampen it a little.
Our timing in discussing the two AWD systems was impeccable. I received Subaru's Fall 2000 Drive magazine in the mail today. Lo and behold, there is a detailed discussion on the subject on pages 22 & 23. They verify that the 5-speed MTX's power is normally distributed 50/50. However, they don't specify any numbers for the ATX. They just say "Under normal driving conditions, the power split is biased toward the front wheels."
Comments
-mike
I found that applying force didn't help matters at all. The thing was to ease it in slowly, sometimes wiggle it a bit. Or the back to neutral and try again method.
The good news is my Escort never had any tranny failures - it was just very notchy.
You may want to consider a short shift lever. The stock unit has rubber isolators that creates some "play" in the linkage, and though it's supposed to reduce vibes I haven't noticed any change without it.
The catch is the SPT kit is expensive ($200), since it's meant to replace the entire shift linkage on the Impreza, and only the shift lever fits in the Forester.
You can also get urethane bushings ($25) for the linkage under the vehicle, but that's a lot of work to install.
Bill: I'd check the tire pressure to make sure it's not too low or too high. Yours in an open front differential, so all it takes is one of the tires slipping, and all the power will leak to that "path of least resistance".
Goodyear skatorbacks, perhaps?
Solution: an LSD or AWD. Or both, like the GT and Outback have.
-juice
Look at the image here:
http://www.b-specusa.com/tranny8.JPG
(didn't embed it because it isn't mine.)
First of all, this is not a stock 5MT subaru transmission. The gears are hardened and enlarged-- it's the BPM gearset that several vendors resell.
Anyway, the top shaft is the layshaft. On the right of it (as pictured) is where the clutch attaches and makes contact with the flywheel. The mainshaft is below it and it drives the front differential (shown lower right) and the center differential (not shown, would be opposite end of the shaft, outside of tranny case).
When gears are selected, the gear pairs along the layshaft and mainshaft mate resulting in torque to the wheels. Starting from the right on the layshaft is first gear. The small gear immediately behind it is reverse. (Normally there would be brass synchronizer gears but this gearset does not use them.)
The two easiest ways to engage reverse are to go into first gear and then reverse, sometimes even allowing the clutch to engage while in 1st. The other way is to blip the gas before attempting to select reverse. Both solutions match the speed of the layshaft to that of the mainshaft.
And of course, NEVER attempt to place the vehicle in reverse unless it is *completely* stopped. The stock reverse gear is larger and more robust than what's pictured above, but it still should be obvious that it will crunch hard.
Hope this helps.
-Colin
-juice
..Mike
..Mike
Ken
You're correct, the last few days of mist and rain have prompted me to post my questions. And thanks for the offer of the test drive next month. I may take you up on that.
Mike T.
I've always liked the Goodyears but you never know. I sort of want to hold off on new tires because I hope to buy a new car next spring. I bought my Legacy used with 57k miles. It had a set of Cornell tires and I had the same problems in wet start-ups.
A broader question for all of you is, are the Subaru clutches adjustable? My experience has been that it's a very fine line between stalling and spinning with my clutch. As I said before, I'm no novice to driving manual transmissions. I guess I like the heavier release of VWs and my wife's Infiniti G20.
Bill
If yours are worn, I'd replace them now, rather than milking a worn set over the winter.
Your clutch could be worn. How far up is the take-up point, in terms of the clutch travel?
-juice
The first thing one notices about the Legacy GT is its handling. No, it's not like a stiff sports car with a go-kart character that rattles your bones. Instead it has a refined smooth feeling of sure-footedness.
Also read the last two paragraphs under "Final Word".
..Mike
..Mike
-juice
Tough to say where the clutch take-up point is. Probably more than halfway; I'll pay attention on the drive home tonight and confirm.
No argument about having good tires. Tread depth still seems good on the Regattas and I've probably driven 50k on them.
Mike-
Good article on the GT in New Car Test Drive. I'll definitely test drive the GT and Outback before the big purchase. My friend has a y2k Outback Limited with auto. I've actually driven it and liked it, though I do prefer the "cleaner" lines of the GT.
Bill
Check the tread when you rotate the tires, so you can see it whole. I was surprised to find mine were a lot more worn than I first expected.
-juice
At a more extreme level, that's why I don't care if I wear out summer tires once a year-- even if there were tread left, it would be harder and less grippy than when new.
-Colin
They were never grippy so I wouldn't have noticed a difference!
Though they wore evenly for the most part, the very outer edges of the tread were more worn from cornering hard. I'll have to see if the new ones do the same.
-juice
Bill, do yourself an immense favor. Drive the OB first, then the GT. I guarantee you'll walk away asking yourself how much you really really need that silly little extra inch of ground clearance.
Cheers,
WDB
..Mike
I tend to get long tread life out of my tires, but you're right on about the rubber getting hard. That was the issue in the Cornell tires that I replaced prior to the Goodyears. There was tread left on the Cornells but they didn't grip well. It looks like the same is true now of the Goodyears.
Of course, the logical move is to buy that new car now instead of buying new tires for the 93 Legacy
Actually, my dear wife has given her blessing about getting a new Subaru. It looks as if baby number 2 will arrive next Spring so we want the improved side impact protection of the new Subies. We have our daughter's seat in the middle but she will be moving to the side when number 2 comes. This just reminded me of another thread. Subaru parents out there, have you had trouble using the center lap belt to tighten a child car seat? I've had to twist the latch a couple of times to get it to sit lower. Otherwise, the belt clip rests on the child seat making it difficult to clamp. I am pleased that model year 2000 and beyond have the 3-point belt in the center.
Bill
Congrats on the expanding family!
If you have/get a '99 or older Soob, many models allow you to retrofit tether anchors. Those are great - they keep the seat from moving forward and secure it nicely. The 2000 and later models have it standard.
Patti: a follow-up question - when are the Isofix anchors going to appear? VW and Volvo offer them.
Hugo: that sounds serious enough to warrant a visit to the dealer ASAP. That's certainly an anomaly.
-juice
LOL. Spoken like a true enthusiast, Bill!
have you had trouble using the center lap belt to tighten a child car seat?
Yes, it's a royal pain. I lean into the child seat with my knee to compress the seat squab/base, grunt, complain, and finally muscle it in. Your solution to twist the center lap belt latch sounds like a good idea. I have the problem on my 93 Civic as well (yet another problem with all of MY93?
And congrats on your 2nd!
..Mike
..Mike
From then on, just twist the base of the buckle, and use the knee to lower the seat like Mike suggested. Click. Secured.
-juice
Last I heard, we should have the anchors in y2k2 vehicles. Since we are very involved in the testing process, I don't think it will be long. One thing that can delay a decision is considerations like retro-fitting. I'll keep you posted.
-juice
loathe to ever remove the seat because of the center lap buckle gymnastics. I seem to be getting better at it though. I like the isometric workout where my knee is in the seat and my back is pressed against the ceiling.
Juice: Good to know that Consumer Reports endorsed the solution of twisting the lap buckle. It had been my wife's idea to do that and she was amused to hear that CR said the same thing.
I think she is amused in general that I am communicating with y'all. I assure her that it means less time that I'll talk Subarus with her. She seemed pleased by that. She likes the cars but it's not her thing to talk about them.
Bill
We talk shop all the time. You ought to drag her to one of our Events!
-juice
I'm also thinking to get an easy-to-use pump (preferably foot-operated) which can also be used to pump soccer balls and bicycle tires.
I've seen some pumps for bikes that also have a pressure gauge mounted on them -- are they suitable for cars (packaging did not say yes or no).
My pump is the upright kind, not a foot pump.
Yes, good pumps are suitable. I've seen Drew post photos of MLs being aired up after off road forays.
-juice
-Colin
"I've read the following for several years and would like some clarification:
"Manual transmission models have a viscous-coupling locking center differential. Automatic transmission models have an electronically managed continuously variable transfer clutch."
Aside from the question of whether I prefer a 5-speed or an automatic transmission, why would I want one or the other transfer system? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each type?"
Al
Dennis
Anyway, I cleaned off the parts, applied some "White Lightning" bike-chain lube, and so far all is well. Maybe in another 10k miles I will know how well the dirt-shedding properties really work. :-)
Chris
The auto's system runs 50/50 in 1st, 2nd, and reverse, and 90/10 in other gears, but can vary that according to the situation. Pros include better efficiency (for an auto), sophisticated design. Cons include higher production cost.
But in reality the trannies themselves will make a bigger difference. The manual gives you better control and is slightly quicker. The auto is better suited for towing and driving off road, since you don't have to slip the clutch.
I'd pick by the tranny I prefer, not by the AWD system. Both are very effective.
-juice
Here are my photos and link to instructions.
The factory hitch is a Class I, rated for 2000 lbs towing and a 200 lb tongue weight. I've towed 700 lbs and put about 100 lbs on the tongue, and it worked like a charm. It costs about $200, but I installed it myself. You have to remove some exhaust hooks and it required elbow grease, so get a good torque wrench for leverage. I ordered the hitch from Darlene.
Pros include a clean, custom fit (you barely even see it), all hardware included, piece of mind. Plus now you have instructions. It also comes with a custom-fit wiring harness, and a grommet to seal the hole in the spare tire well where the wiring pokes out.
The Draw Tite I saw installed stuck out from the bottom a bit more, so it didn't look as clean and may hurt your angle of departure if you off road. Its advatange is the price; you could probably have it installed for less. I can't say if the harness is included, or if the grommet they provide creates a good seal.
Look at my photos - it shows the pre-wiring for the harness, as well as the entire procedure. Good luck.
-juice
Cheers, Al
Dennis:
Thanks for the detailed explanations that are greatly appreciated.
Hey. Where'd you learn that the 4EAT splits torque 50-50 front to rear in first and second gears? From a good, reliable source, like a shop manual? Reason I ask: Subie shop mechanics told me it was 90-10 (front to reaR), and only went to 50-50 in grim circumstances. They also said that on very poor traction surfaces, and steep grades, that the AUTO can go steeper and sliprier than the 5-speed because the manual's center differential shifts back and forth, quickly, in minimal traction, and you eventually lose purchase. What do you think of those comments?
By the way Blane, I took my 2000 OB 4EAT Auto on some moderately steep, scree covered primitive trails two weeks ago on an archaeological trip. The first day, I was on some really grim stuff, the second day, just primitive dirt roads, with good traction. Not even the slightest hesitation or detection of the auto system engaging, which I know it must have done on at least two 200-meter segments. [That is, unless Juice Man is right, and it was ALREADY in 50-50 4WD. Hmmm. His answers have always been right...] I think the manual is probably better in daily use, because it's already a true 50-50 4WD system. But I chose the auto for two reasons, I can creep at ultra-slow speeds easily (which I had to do 5 weeks ago over piled softball-size stones) and because at the extreme low-traction condition, it's superior to the 5-speed (as I understand it). The flip side is it's inferior to the manual in moderate-traction rainy road, snowy road conditions.
Su amigo en Nuevo Mexico
psycho
4EAT:
Gear Selector in "1" or "2" or "R" = 50/50 (variable)
Gear Selector in "3" or "D" = 90/10 variable to 50/50
5MT:
50/50 up to 60/40 or 40/60
I believe the 5MT gives you better sporty performance, but the 4EAT is a safer and more useful system for the day to day driver.
My XT6 4EAT split is 95/5 up to 40/60 as far as I know and my TOD system on my Trooper is 10/90 up to 50/50. I enjoy the rear wheel bias.
-mike
They advertise 90/10 because that's where it is most of the time. You're only in 1st and 2nd for very short periods to get up to speed.
On steep inclines, I agree that the auto would be better. I have to slip the clutch and could potentially break traction and spin the wheels. The auto allows you to gradually increase power without stalling.
Auto is aslo better for towing, again because I'd have to slip the clutch a bit.
But manual has the edge in control, and in reducing understeer on high speed turns, since in those situations the auto would start in 90/10 and have to adjust.
Here's a scenario. Imagine you're driving down a very long, windy down hill, and want to use engine braking. I can choose 4th or 3rd, and get even braking from all four wheels.
Even if you select "3" manually with the automatic, the front wheels are burdened with 90% of the braking, at least at first. Going down to "2" would give too low a gear.
The manual is also a bit quicker off the line.
The auto's main advantage is in heavy traffic.
-juice
Another important thing about the auto-trans models is that they will proactively shift torque front to back to compensate for acceleration and decceleration, which is pretty cool. The 5-spd models only shift torque when slippage occurs.
There is a good description of the Subaru AWD systems here, but it doesn't go into detail. Maybe Patti can give us the exact torque split numbers.
Craig
How does it work? Power is routed 50/50 by default, with a limited-slip center differential. It's filled with a fluid that heats up when either axle turns faster than the other. That temporarily locks the axles so they turn at the same speed.
Now this sounds like POWER is always split 50/50, but that's not true. They do turn at the same SPEED, but if both front tires are on a frictionless surface and they both spin, it actually uses almost ZERO power once the center diffy locks.
If the front axle got 50% of the power, then it would continue to spin like crazy on the ice! But power isn't allowed to leak out like that once the diffy locks.
So ignore the hype. The manual can send virtually 100% of the power to the axle that isn't spinning. Maybe 95%, but certainly not just 50%.
It's fun to talk theory, but in practice either system pretty much offers the best traction the tires can come up with. Only Blizzaks or studs would do any better.
-juice
The TCM monitors (Intelligent control) on the 4EAT are an excellent feature and close the handling gap with the 5MT but still wouldn't help in the scenario that Juice provided.
-Frank P.
Ordered one of the first 2000 OB/Ltd. Not pleased.
Have experienced (at low speed) feeling every pebble in the road with the new one. 10,000 mi on the odo.
Dealer has balanced wheels, alignment, rotated tires and checked out several times all to no avail.
Thought it was a CV joint, strut tower etc. again to no avail.
Never had this in the 96. It seems like something is loose or transmitting too much feedback through steering wheel.
Any help out there? Thanks very much.
My dad's 2001 is pretty isolated, so it does sounds like an irregularity. Ask the dealer to drive a new model and yours back-to-back to try and feel a difference.
-juice
At low speed, the steering wheel will twitch and react to road irregularities quite a bit. I agree, it feels loose and has more kickback/feedback than I'd like. There is also the annoying 'knock/rattle' many of us have experienced on rough roads/bumps, and I wonder if that may have something to do with it. I don't have any suggestions to offer, but I certainly think Subaru could firm-up the steering and dampen it a little.
Craig
They're quiet and handle predicatably. Haven't tried them in the snow - yet.
-juice