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Comments
Cheers
Graham
Now, the question is... can I get all these tires & wheels paid for before I need new tires again?!
Oh well... at least the popcorn at Les Schwabs' is pretty good...
Cheers!
Paul
Yet they dig on the Outback H6 mercilessly. The Outback is a pretty big wagon, so I think the comparison is fair.
-Colin
-Frank P.
If I get ticked about anything it is that there seems to be a pretty solid sentiment across the US automotive press corps that Subies in general cost more than they should. I've read the same thing about the Legacy GT and the Impreza 2.5RS for example. It tends to go, "for that amount of money you could get into a ", and the invariably is lacking something substantial in comparison to the Subie - such as AWD. Now that irks me. I bought my GT because it was a great value, costing thousands of dollars less than any other comparably equipped automobile. I'm pretty tight with a buck!
Regards,
-wdb
No offense to colin, but the Legacy platform wagon (OB, Leg Wagon) are pretty darn small compared to say a Tarus wagon or even the passat.
Coming from someone who didn't buy a Legacy GT wagon because of it's lack of power and price, I'd have to say they are a bit steeply priced. Considering for 3K more than the GT Wagon that I was gonna ge, I got more features in a bigger package w/more HP, tourque and towing, the only downsides were handling and gas milage. I still got AWD, 4wheel anti-lock, 4 wheel disc, moonroof, and a whole bunch more options.
-mike
You also got something that handles like a truck. Just like you never cease to mention your Trooper when Outbacks come up, I'll never cease to point out that it doesn't drive the same. ;-)
Even though life is not a big race, I am not content to have a truck of any kind as a daily driver.
-Colin
I did see a Forester in Brazil. Just one, but finally. One other Impreza, but that's it. There is no Soob retailer in Recife (I checked because I wanted to try a WRX).
Another observation - Land Rovers are common there. The Defender line has several models, all cheaper than even a base Forester.
Of course they are near-military vehicles, spartan and with few options (no A/C). But again I found it interesting that Land Rovers are cheap and Foresters are upscale.
Do you think C&D complains that Land Rovers cost more than $30k? It's all image.
Patti: you want to guess what the best selling import in Brazil is? Think WRC.
If you said Peugoet 306, you got it. Who says rallying doesn't do wonders for sales? The amazing thing is that they only sell models with up to a measly 115hp. No turbo, no real power. They even have a cosmetic "Rallye" edition with no extra power, but it sells like hot cakes.
Paisan: congrats on getting the Isuzu groups started. Good to go.
I'll have to check on homepage.com to see why QSubaru's and my site have been having constant problems. Anyone suggest an alternate host site?
-juice
I also agree, that the 2 downsides are handling and fuel economy on my Trooper, but it's still cheaper than an LL Bean!
-mike
Drew
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Juice might have meant 306...
-Colin
They do sell the 106, 306, and even 406 over there. The 206 is the only one remotely interesting.
It stands out with it's very quirky styling. They even make a 5 door hatch!
-juice
My biggest beef with the C&D review was the complaining about the interior of the OB. I don't know what planet they're from, but I like the bland beige combination far more than say ... the Passat's.
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Size-wise, the Legacy platform is in the same slot as the Camry/Accord (in my book). Based on my personal experience with all these cars, I'd say the interior of the Legacy is average to better than average. While home for Christmas, my parents kept wanting to use my OB for day trips, because the back seat was roomier than their Accord. It made an impression on me.
When I bought my base/5-spd OB, I felt like I was getting a huge bargain. For under $22K, I got a well equipped vehicle with AWD, car handling, and the overall capabilities of most smaller SUVs (or better). Sizewise it was exactly what I wanted, and I don't really like larger SUVs.
At this moment in time, I would not personally buy an H6 for the same reason I would not spend $28-32K on an SUV -- it does not seem reasonable to me. Note that I had no problems plunking down $27K on a sports car, however, which probably tells you how I can justify spending money!! But seriously, the base model OB is a bargain that even John Phillips alluded to in his counterpoint to the C&D review (he got the price wrong, but his point was valid). I can see how someone would feel good about the base OB's value, and then flinch at spending $6-8K more for an H6, because that's how I feel!!
It's not that the H6 seems overpriced compared to other cars and SUVs in its class (it is not), it's that is is overpriced compared to the base models!
Craig
(grin)
Cheers!
Paul
1970 Buick Electra 225 (heck, ANY true deuce-and-a-quarter Buick)
Cheers,
-wdb
Then my parents had a Grand Marquis Colony Park, 1983. Lordy it was big. It didn't have amber side markers; the one on the left was red and the one on the right was green.
Ross
Nice to have Juice back from sunny Recife. I bet it was a shock to hit the cold again.
I hadn't realized the positioning of Land Rovers in the USA. Historically, the range now branded as Defender was the standard hard working 4wd around the world with particularly strong sales in those markets where extreme toughness was preferred. Very big in Africa and for a long time very popular here in Australia. They can be ordered in masses of variations and used to come with the option of a power take-off shaft.
I feel some affection for them. They were always far more effective than Jeeps and the Aluminium body was much better protected than most other 4wd vehicles. They were however a bit rough on the build quality with the usual English habit of electrical systems which worked sometimes.
In Australia, they were the dominant 4wd from the 1950s to 1970s when the Toyota Landcruiser and, to a lesser extent, Nissan Patrol took their place.
I can remember the incredulity of one of my Dad's staff when seeing a Landcruiser for the first time "But it's got a heater and a radio". This was initially assumed to imply "softness" but the realisation that these were seriously hard wearing vehicles came quickly. The fact that they don't break down much and that the electricals work is a big attraction.
Over time the station wagon version has become popular amongst city based types with aspirations of "outdoors living" particularly those who tow boats or caravans. The bush vehicle tends to be the troop carrier version or tray bed utility.
The Landcruiser is now the standard bush working vehicle and Land Rovers are a bit of a specialty. Range Rovers have some following amongst the stupidly wealthy and you do see some Discovery and Freelander models around. A friend had a Range Rover in England and joked that it was more expensive to maintain than keeping a lover.
If I was after a serious 4wd, I would think of a lot of others before getting a Land Rover.
Cheers
Graham
Mention by Juice of Peugeot and following comments also point up the differences in perception of Peugeots in Europe and USA.
Peugeot make a range of extremely good cars with particular skill at suspensions and very effective engines, especially diesels. Occassionally, I used to drive them whilst in England and the feel-good factorr was definitely there when pushing on hard.
Historically Peugeots are very popular in Africa where the superb suspension, probably developed for the dodgy French road surfaces, makes for easy driving. The old Peugeout 404 and 504 wagons were particularly popular. They seem to go on forever and get to places you would not believe.
In Australia, they held a similar sort of market position to the Subaru long before Subaru got here. For complicated reasons, not least the French arrogance about exploding Nuclear weaons in the Pacific and using Australia as an entry point to send saboteurs to blow up a Greenpeace vessel, the Rainbow Warrior, in New Zealand, imports of French cars practically ceased about 15 years ago. Australians are not fond of governments killing people, particularly foreign nationals and have long memories. That does not stop Peugeots being good cars though.
The 106 is a typical small hatch, virtually indistinguishable from the Citroen Saxo. Its the sort of car you would put your daughter or mother in if you were a kind hearted father/son who was being generous (like Juice).
The 206 is a follow on from the wonderful 205, the GTi version of which was "The Hot Hatch" to own in the mid 1980's. They are a great ride with fabulous handling.
The 306 is now aging but was very pleasant to drive with very stable handling and compliant suspension.
The 406 is also aging a bit but was the best car of this size before the Passsat was introduced. The chassis is absolutely superb and when teamed with the more powerful diesel engine (110 bhp) is a wondefully capable all day cruiser over poor roads or motorways. There is a wagon version with a third row of seats which is a great family car and a real alternative to a van.
There is also a coupe version of the 406 which is absolutely gorgeous. Think baby Ferrari and you have the idea. Fitted with a 3.0litre V6 this is superb.
Peugeot also do a poor van, the 806 which should be avoded at all costs. It is a co-operative deal with Citroen and Fiat and is seriously unpleasant.
If you ever get the chance to drive a Peugeot, give it a try, particularly if you can find a poor quality road surface. It is a real eye opener as to how suspension systems should be designed.
If I won a 406 or any Peugeot in a raffle, I would have no hesitation about keeping it. I might just have to move the boat to one side to fit it into the garage next to my Outback.
Cheers
Graham
http://www.herald.com/content/archive/living/Barry/2001/docs/jan07.htm
Like all French cars of that era, a bit strange, although Peugeot was perhaps among the most normal of the bunch.
Bob
Best regards, Dale
Thanks for the suggestions on Forester accessories. I guess I should have mentioned the accessories that I already have on my '01 Forester L. Here goes:
CD Player, tweeter kit, keyless entry and alarm, rear cargo cover, cargo net, tailpipe cover. I think that's about it. Oh, I also bought the Yakima round bar roof rack to top my canoe.
I considered the armrest extension, but I didn't want to lose the cupholder there....it's the only one big enough to hold my water bottle. Now I'm looking at exterior accessories, mainly for looks. I like the look of the brushgaurd, eventhough it's not really all that functional. It beefs up the look of the bumper. I also like the look of those fender flares, however, the photo in the brochure makes them look like they are darker than the bumpers and side molding of the L model. I would prefer that they match.
Sounds like you have a very nice ride in the '01 Sedona Red with the premium package. I am envious of that huge sunroof you have. I do beleive I saw a photo of your Forester posted on the board many months ago....am I correct in this assumption.
Any other comments are welcome.
Take care all,
Skip
-mike
How magical? Glad you asked. Here in the eastern US there are a lot of remnants of the heyday of rail travel, particularly in the form of railroad crossings. In my state there are thousands of them, and they all seem to have two things in common: 1) because of grading, the tracks are at least a foot or three higher than the road surface on either side; 2) the quality of the surface between the tracks is abysmal and the surface level is very inconsistent. Picture a series of small speed bumps, randomly spaced from 6 inches to 4 feet apart, the whole works up above the road surface by 1 to 3 feet, with ramps leading on and off. After having driven Peugeots for a very short time it became second nature for me to barely even slow down for these things. The only time I did slow down was when I had people in the car who were uninitiated to riding in Peugeots, because it tended to make them suck in their breath, grab onto handles and seatmates, and generally get on as though they were having a heart attack. The car, meanwhile, would simple be going about its business, lifting its body up via the "up" ramp, holding it aloft as the wheels pattered lightly atop the torture test below, and then gently settling back down on the other side. No bump stop thumps, no sideways skitters, no loss of composure whatever.
Yes, Peugeots have fabulous suspensions. Real-world suspensions. Dig around as I might I cannot remember a time that I had did anything that caused a Peugeot to act with anything less than aplomb, and I drive in a spirited manner. Lose traction, yes; lose composure, never. In my experience they remain the quintessential backroad vehicle, even the largish 505. They never were truly appreciated by American automotive media, who tended to call them 'soft' and blather on about body lean and odd control placement. Which of course caused them to miss the true joy of driving a Peugeot entirely. I can only surmise that none of them ever had the good sense to drive one across a nasty railroad crossing with impunity.
For the record, Peugeot left the US market in 1991 due to low sales and a dearth of products in their lineup that fit the American buying habit of the time (read: minivans and SUVs). Since that time there have been repeated rumblings of a return but no action. They continue to this day to maintain a presence in the US, to support the vehicles they sold here - much to their credit. I drove my Turbo until March of last year when it cracked yet another cylinder head and I deemed it to be too far into the high maintenance zone to trust anymore. I replaced it with a Legacy GT, which I find to be the Peugeot's match in quirkiness and backroad fun factor. However the folks at FHI could take a lesson from Peugeot on seating and suspension. For that matter, so could virtually every other carmaker.
Regards,
-wdb
Bob
Ross
That was a picture of my Forester posted a few months back--which one person named -- "pat88's red pet". I agree! :-) It was note #513 of 2223 on the old Meet the Members section.
You can see the bronze brush guard on my Forester.
You can also get the guard in all black.
We didn't get the fender flares because of the monotone Sedona Red. It wouldn't look good on this Forester. I wish they did have something that would look good on it and protect the car.
~~~Pat
Bob
Now there was another lovely car to drive. My dad had one and it a lovely soft suspension which soaked up bumps. It leant dramatically in corners as the suspension was so soft.
Wierdly, the wheelbase was longer on one side than the other as the rear suspension involved an arm extending the width of the car. The right side arm was ahead of the left (or vice versa) meaning that the gap from the rear door to the wheel was different on each side.
The Renault 16 also had a very practical load carrying arrangement, allowing the rear seat to move 6" forward to give increased boot space. Rear leg room was them a bit on the short side.
Other options were to entirely remove the rear seats or to swing the seat back horizontal and the seat squab forward giving a large flat and very low load bay.
Colour choice was "interesting" with dad's car being a very dirty brown, ideally matched to the colour of the mud in the mine where he worked. He claimed that avoiding the need to wash the car was a major benefit.
Unfortunately the build quality on Australian cars was pretty poor. They were imported as CKD (completely knocked down) units from France and assembled in Melbourne. The same thing was done for Peugeot.
If you have ever put an IKEA wardrobe together, you have an idea of the possibilities for things going amiss. Dad's car had the drain hoses from the left and right side reversed meaning that whenever it rained, the passenger footwell filled with water. For a long time they forgot to rust-proof the body shells meaning that a whole batch of cars started to rust alarmingly at about three years old.
It was the sort of car that had a constant succession of minor ills with trim imperfectly fitted and such like. Ultimately dad replaced it with a Mitsubishi Sigma (Galant). A lot less exciting to drive but the reassurance that things didn't fall off it was a major relief. That experience mirrors my pleasure in moveing from a very crummy Mercedes to the Outback. However, I get an awful lot more fun from the Outbcak than I ever did from The Merc.
Cheers
Graham
The indefinite articles : a, an
a goes before a consonnant
an before a vowel.
A boy.
An apple.
A car.
An orange.
A house.
An opera.
Note:
An before an h mute: - an hour, an honour.
A before u and eu when they are pronounced 'you': a european, a university, a unit.
The indefinite article is used before professions, nationalities and religions
John is a doctor.
He is an Englishman.(He is English)
He is a Protestant.
referring to A SUV as AN SUV sounds as bad as a MacDonald's burger tastes
cheers for the new year,decade,century,milennium
gus
To the group: Thanks for all of the insight. I enjoyed reading it!
Aussieroo, acronyms get separate treatment.
Ex: I would never, ever, buy an ESS-EWE-VEE with my MO-NEY.
Cheers,
-wdb
My dad had an Electra too! I remember so many times having to get out and push when it snowed...
Before you dream too much, keep in mind many of those European cars are quirky and struggle to meet even Brazil's much lower quality standards.
My brother's wife drove a Renault 19, and it was so bad it only lasted 4 years (near the ocean, rust is very common). He drove it back to the dealer, and with some help to push it back onto the lot, sold it for whatever they were willing to give him.
What that in mind, the styling can be interesting. The Renault Laguna is nice, as is the Peugoet 607. The Alfa Romeo 156 is gorgeous - what presence!
Loosh - you'll like to know that Toyota still makes those "Jipes" today, I think the same J40 you're talking about.
There are several Defender models - 90, 100, open and closed. With poor quality, though, they've lost market share to Toyota (various Land Cruisers) and Mitsubishi (Pajeros), mostly.
Anyway, back home now, the Forester seems so comparatively big! It has acres compared to my mom's rusty Uno. And power steering! Nice!
-juice
The Trooper is too big for Brazil. There aren't any parking spots you could fit in, and remember gas costs a fortune there.
There are several "Land Cruiser" models, and the ones popular in Brazil are the smaller ones, not the same as ours. Also, the "Pajero" label is used on several Mitsus, and again the smaller ones are more common.
One more thing - diesels rule. It costs about HALF what gas costs so they are worth much, much more than their gas counterparts, and hold their value better as well.
-juice
-mike
My new Hella 4000s are light daylight. Anyone with a forester who is putting on aux lights should consider them, they are huge, but wired into my high beams they make country driving extremely bearable!
-mike
As an example, consider that 2 seater car-based pickups are a big hit - and with 1000cc engines!
Isuzu could sell the Rodeo (2 and 4 doors now) if they offered a 2.5l or so 4 banger diesel for the Brazilian market.
-juice
-mike
-juice