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First I was shopping between the 09 Corolla and the 08 Civic. After test driving both today again, I agree with many of the 09 Corolla owners who have a problem keeping the car going straight down the highway. The electric steering is a lot of work, unlike the Civic. Since I'm handing this car down to my teenager in two years, I'm concerned about the absence of stability and traction control options on this car. Bluetooth would be a nice feature for her too. (the Corolla has both of these features) Waiting till the fall to see if these are even going to be options on the Civic will be an inconvenience, especially if these changes aren't in the car; but since we are purchasing the car to give to her, I would gladly deal with the inconvenience for the safety of it all. Should I gamble that the changes will be there?
Also, I'm very interested in what the actual average mpg on the 2008 Civic has been for anyone driving a 2008.
My mileage has been steadily 30/36 after two years of ownership and still lovin' this car. My 1st Honda product and I can honestly say it's exceeded all my expectations. And, we've owned Toyota's, Nissan's, Mazda's & now Honda and the Honda is the best of breed in my humble opinion. Planning on adding a Hyundai Elantra later this year, as my oldest has her heart set on one. Can't really go wrong with any of these small econoboxes for trouble free, cheap transportation. Isn't that getting to be an oxymoron now like jumbo shrimp? Lol! But seriously, with the future gas prices a big unknown, all great choices.
I could see bluetooth for the 09. Probably with the navigation system if the Accord is of any indication. Also a repackaged Blueconnect unit might be avaliable on non navigation models. The blueconnect Hands free link doesn't have speaker integration. The one with navigation does have the speaker integration.
Sandman46 - How or why do you think these changes will take place? I've been to the Honda website and I couldn't find anything. The dealers either don't know or aren't talking. One said Honda keeps everthing tightly under wraps until the release.
Just look at the last couple of generations of the Civic and Accord. It's an easy swap requiring no retooling on their part...all they do is flip the rear tail lights or change the configuration of the turn signal or the reverse lights. A car person like myself can spot the mid year refresh in a heartbeat. Still miss the '50's and '60's when the car makers changed the models on a yearly basis. We grew up with our family business getting my mom a new Caddy every other year and they changed the look each year. The other GM, Ford and Chrysler cars did the same thing. I used to be able to tell what year and make a car was just by looking at it...my passion even back then. Must've got my love of the automobile from my grandpa who owned a Dodge dealership when I was young. My favorite time of the year was September when the new models showed up. Also, just look at the '02 Camry and the refresh done with the '05 model.
Still think a USB port has a chance. One guy at the ride and drive for the 09 Pilot said the USB port said get used to it. Probably an EX/EX-L feature. The current nav system can easily be adapted to it. Just have to update the software.
Civic Colors CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BLACK ATOMIC BLUE METAL/GRAY ROYAL BLUE PEARL/GRAY CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/GRAY POLISHED METAL METALLIC/GRAY RALLYE RED/BLACK ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLACK ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/GRAY TAFFETA WHITE/GRAY
Si Colors CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BLACK DYNO BLUE PEARL/BLACK POLISHED METAL METALLIC/BLACK REDLINE ORANGE PEARL/BLACK RALLYE RED/BLACK ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLACK TAFFETA WHITE/BLACK
Hybrid Colors ATOMIC BLUE METAL/BEIGE MAGNETIC PEARL/BLUE CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BEIGE POLISHED METAL METALLIC/BEIGE ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLUE SPECTRUM WHITE PEARL/BLUE
Just got this off of another forum. Did a quick copy/paste. Hybrid is going to get both a cloth and leather model for 09. Looks like some changes in the colors. You can get a black interior on non Si. Don't know about beige on non hybrid. Si gets black only. Hope this helps.
Were there any early pics in that site? Would be curious to see what's planned for the front & rear fascias with the new model...if any. But using past history as a guide, bet there will be some small noticeable tweaks. Makes people think they're getting something extra and it's interesting to see what the designers can come up with within their parameters so no retooling will be necessary.
If the 2003-2005 vs. 2006-2007 Accords are any indication, Honda is willing to make very big changes to a design if they feel it necessary. Fortunately, the Civic is already darn good-looking, and many think so.
The previous 2003-2005 Accord was accused of having droopy styling on the rear, they made a major update for 2006 (the model of Accord I drive).
Perhaps that USB port is a big change. The audio systems can be adapted to it. Bluetooth will require modifying the nav system. If the 08 accord is of any indication then non nav cars won't get bluetooth.
I guess Leather is hitting the hybrid as an option. I guess some people would love the gas mileage of the hybrid but wanted leather seats. Might be a nice vehicle. The global small hybrid sounds nice too.
If both leather and a better audio system are a possibility with the Hybrid for '09, then maybe a sunroof will also become part of the options mix too. Speaking for myself, that would certainly be a deal maker for this Civic version. With stability control also? I'm the first in line, checkbook in hand.
Maybe no sunroof. It could add some extra weight which will affect performance. Maybe they will. An upgraded stereo system would be possible. Stability control is quite likely for the hybrid. USB port is probably likely. So is bluetooth for navigation models. USB port would be very nice since it would provide a built in iPod adaptor for newer 5th gen and up iPods.
There is a new iPod music link coming out but it probably won't be USB. I still think the USB port will come out but only on EX/EX-L/Hybrid/Si models. The new music link could be usb based but it seems to be the current one which is junk.
I'd expect it to be an LX but with something like alloy wheels and a couple of extra niceties. Look at the LX-P (LX-Premium) Accord Sedan or LX-S (LX-Sport) Accord Coupe to get an idea of the changes from the LX.
The VP (Value Package)...
Honda has usually been based on the base model (DX, in this case) but with things like A/C and Cruise Control added. It is more like a DX with a popular equipment package, usually.
A VP coupe could be compelling. Not as much need for the power package on a coupe. And I'm sure my daugher would LOVE zipping around in the coupe in a few years (after I'm done with it).
I looked, and the previous (2004) Civic VP had a CD player and A/C, but still had the black door handles and smaller 14" wheels; it basically looked like a DX but added A/C and CD player. No tach (although we know this model would have that).
Why doesn't Honda bring back an HX version,esp. a 4 door? It's got outstanding mpg without having to pay thousands extra for hybrid, which defeats the purpose (if your goal is mpg)?
I would be all over the HX. I think the previous gen was a mistake to only have it as a 2-door. Why have your most practical drivetrain in your least practical body?
Car makers just seem to think everybody wants really fast cars (maybe the car mags start this), when it is not really the case. I think my 4-cyl MT Accord is overpowered and would love to have an HX version. Barring that an HX Civic would be extremely tempting.
Old EPA: 36/44 (6 better city, 6 better hwy) New EPA: 31/40 (5 better city, 6 better hwy)
The current generation of Civic (2006-current) with the 1.8L looks like this, and can be found by clicking here.
5AT: Old EPA: 30/40 New EPA: 25/36
5MT: Old EPA: 30/38 New EPA: 26/34
You simply got your numbers mixed up. If you didn't know, the EPA methods were revised for 2008. The link you showed, showed the new numbers for the 2002 HX, and were comparing those to the old, more optimistic numbers for the current Civic that you drive.
The old HX Civic beats the current Civic LX by more MPG than the Civic beats the full-size Accord.
incorrect. Very clearly on the link I posted it says this: "We have revised the 1985-2007 MPG estimates to make them comparable to the new 2008 and later MPG estimates!" The EPA figures on that website are using 2008 EPA figures on pre-2008 vehicles. As a matter of fact, had I compared the old EPA figures, the MPG would have looked significantly worse. That said, the old EPA figures almost universally overstated MPG for vehicles, hence the new EPA standards. With the new 2008 EPA standards, many of us (myself included) get *better* MPG than the EPA estimates. In highway-only driving, I very easily get 36MPG (at 80mph, no less), and usually get closer to 40MPG. In stop-and-go city-only driving I routinely get 31MPG. And I'm no grandma. I have an 08 Civic LX, Manual. Check out the actual MPG thread, or go over to 8thcivic forums and see what those of us with non-si's get for actual MPG.
So, back to my point.
When comparing actual MPG between the non-si Civic and the Hybrid, there's just not much room for an HX. The regular civics get great gas mileage (in most cases better than EPA), and because of that, the HX doesn't have a substantial enough market for those who want to get 39MPG over 35MPG, but don't want to pony up the 2 grand for 45MPG. It's just not worth the development cost.
What development cost? Honda already has the HX engine, it just has to be tweaked to current technology, just like your LX was.
So, you say there is no market for an HX with the LX out there - weren't both on the market for 10+ years? Did Honda keep making HX's for 10 years because there was no market for them due to the LX?
Considering the difference in the EPA numbers (HX 5 MPG - 6 MPG EPA better than a current LX) I'd say go for it. It'd make a nice "tweener" between a regular Civic and a Hybrid. The HX was never much different in cost from other Civics.
Very clearly on the link I posted it says this: "We have revised the 1985-2007 MPG estimates to make them comparable to the new 2008 and later MPG estimates!"
Right. Which is why the HX CVT gets 30/36 under 2008 rules versus an LX Auto getting 25/36. The Manual version of the HX gets 31/40mpg under the new estimates, versus 26/34 for the current LX manual, thus showing that the old Civic HX gets 5-6 mpg better than a current 1.8L Civic.
It's what I said in the first place, my friend.
With the new 2008 EPA standards, many of us (myself included) get *better* MPG than the EPA estimates.
As do I in my Accord; who is to say you wouldn't beat the estimates in the HX just as well?
Someone asked about bringing back the HX Civic for the 2009 MMC. This is where it led; reasons for and against it. I guess I really didn't feel that it was so off-topic. Sorry.
I doubt we'll have an "HX" model current-generation Civic because the current R18 engine is so reasonably fuel-efficient to start with considering its power.
It'll be interesting to see if Honda offers on the Civic an improved R18 with the Advanced VTEC valvetrain, which may improve fuel efficiency another 10-12%.
Actually, Honda demonstrated its Advanced VTEC prototype engine some two years ago, just about the time of the introduction of the current generation Civic. So there's still hope we might just see an Advanced VTEC R18 as early as the beginning of calendar year 2009.
With sales so good right now, I just don't see Honda doing anything too drastic yet since there is no need to do so. In 2011, people are going to expect a decent bump in economy since it will be a new model, and with A-VTEC, they'll get it.
Right now, the Civic is a class-leader in fuel economy anyway, although it is down a few horsepower to vehicles like the Cobalt and Mazda 3i.
Right now, the Civic is a class-leader in fuel economy anyway, although it is down a few horsepower to vehicles like the Cobalt and Mazda 3i.
What's interesting is that Mazda3 sales have been hurt by the fact the Duratec I-4 engines have much poorer fuel economy compared to the excellent R18 engine the Civic uses. Small wonder why there's been a lot of incentives to try to sell more Mazda3's here in the USA.
With the 2.0L 148hp version, a buddy of mine is averaging 30 mpg in a suburban commute. Doesn't seem that bad, although EPA Estimates are down 3-5 mpg from the Civic and Corolla. He likes that it isn't, well, a Civic or Corolla. It's a fun little car that desperately needs the S model's 5-speed automatic for taller highway gearing.
I have a 2006 Civic. My husband solved this problem by getting a black foam grip used on bicycles.It looks great on the car. If I could post pics, I would.
It's a fun little car that desperately needs the S model's 5-speed automatic for taller highway gearing.
I could not agree with you more. If the 148 bhp engine had the 5AT unit, I think Mazda could likely improve especially the EPA highway rating quite a bit, because at freeway speeds it means the engine could rev at lower RPM's for better fuel efficiency.
Since Mazda is 33.9% owned by Ford, the next-generation Mazda3 now in late development could end up using the Powershift dual-clutch transmission Ford co-developed with Getrag (it's already available on certain European Ford Focus models). Given that Powershift is a six-speed unit, that could result in excellent fuel economy regardless of engine installed in the new Mazda3 (which is rumored to arrive spring 2009 worldwide).
As much as I love my 2008 Civic EX-L coupe, I would be mighty annoyed if the 2009's finally got power seats. It just seems a bit illogical that my car with leather, and navigation has manual seats. I also wish the coupes came in white with black interior without having to get the Si. Who knows if this will change...
You might get a grey interior with white, but black is typically reserved for silver cars and black cars in many Honda models. White gets "camel" or the occasional blue or grey.
Coupe Colors CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BLACK ATOMIC BLUE METAL/GRAY ROYAL BLUE PEARL/GRAY CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/GRAY POLISHED METAL METALLIC/GRAY RALLYE RED/BLACK ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLACK ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/GRAY TAFFETA WHITE/GRAY
Sedan Colors CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/GRAY ATOMIC BLUE METAL/GRAY URBAN TITANIUM METALLIC/BEIGE ROYAL BLUE PEARL/GRAY POLISHED METAL METALLIC/GRAY TANGO RED PEARL/BEIGE ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/GRAY TAFFETA WHITE/BEIGE
No black on the sedan. I didn't have access to it. LX gets less color/interior choices. The DX trim will be the base trim. VP will also be available. The VP is probably a DX with AC and a radio/cd player. No VP coupe. Just LX as the base for the coupe. LX-S is also coming out which is in between the LX and EX. Hope this helps.
Comments
Also, I'm very interested in what the actual average mpg on the 2008 Civic has been for anyone driving a 2008.
Can't really go wrong with any of these small econoboxes for trouble free, cheap transportation. Isn't that getting to be an oxymoron now like jumbo shrimp? Lol! But seriously, with the future gas prices a big unknown, all great choices.
The Sandman
Also, just look at the '02 Camry and the refresh done with the '05 model.
The Sandman
CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BLACK
ATOMIC BLUE METAL/GRAY
ROYAL BLUE PEARL/GRAY
CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/GRAY
POLISHED METAL METALLIC/GRAY
RALLYE RED/BLACK
ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLACK
ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/GRAY
TAFFETA WHITE/GRAY
Si Colors
CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BLACK
DYNO BLUE PEARL/BLACK
POLISHED METAL METALLIC/BLACK
REDLINE ORANGE PEARL/BLACK
RALLYE RED/BLACK
ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLACK
TAFFETA WHITE/BLACK
Hybrid Colors
ATOMIC BLUE METAL/BEIGE
MAGNETIC PEARL/BLUE
CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BEIGE
POLISHED METAL METALLIC/BEIGE
ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLUE
SPECTRUM WHITE PEARL/BLUE
Just got this off of another forum. Did a quick copy/paste. Hybrid is going to get both a cloth and leather model for 09. Looks like some changes in the colors. You can get a black interior on non Si. Don't know about beige on non hybrid. Si gets black only. Hope this helps.
The Sandman
The previous 2003-2005 Accord was accused of having droopy styling on the rear, they made a major update for 2006 (the model of Accord I drive).
Peace!<-AladdinSane<- :shades: -
DX
VP
LX
LX-S
EX
EX-L
SI
I'd expect it to be an LX but with something like alloy wheels and a couple of extra niceties. Look at the LX-P (LX-Premium) Accord Sedan or LX-S (LX-Sport) Accord Coupe to get an idea of the changes from the LX.
The VP (Value Package)...
Honda has usually been based on the base model (DX, in this case) but with things like A/C and Cruise Control added. It is more like a DX with a popular equipment package, usually.
Hope this helps.
This palette may not be final but the 09 Civic is pretty much finalized.
Any takers on a 120hp HX Civic that got, say, 30/40 on the NEW EPA standards?
Car makers just seem to think everybody wants really fast cars (maybe the car mags start this), when it is not really the case. I think my 4-cyl MT Accord is overpowered and would love to have an HX version. Barring that an HX Civic would be extremely tempting.
Having a new model for 5MPG difference is really a waste of money.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/noframes/17426.shtml
As it is, the 2002 HX makes 4MPG worse than my standard-fare LX.
CVT:Click here for details.
Old EPA : 35/40 (5 mpg better city)
New EPA: 30/36 (5 mpg better city)
5MT:Click here for details.
Old EPA: 36/44 (6 better city, 6 better hwy)
New EPA: 31/40 (5 better city, 6 better hwy)
The current generation of Civic (2006-current) with the 1.8L looks like this, and can be found by clicking here.
5AT:
Old EPA: 30/40
New EPA: 25/36
5MT:
Old EPA: 30/38
New EPA: 26/34
You simply got your numbers mixed up. If you didn't know, the EPA methods were revised for 2008. The link you showed, showed the new numbers for the 2002 HX, and were comparing those to the old, more optimistic numbers for the current Civic that you drive.
The old HX Civic beats the current Civic LX by more MPG than the Civic beats the full-size Accord.
"We have revised the 1985-2007 MPG estimates to make them comparable to the new 2008 and later MPG estimates!"
The EPA figures on that website are using 2008 EPA figures on pre-2008 vehicles. As a matter of fact, had I compared the old EPA figures, the MPG would have looked significantly worse. That said, the old EPA figures almost universally overstated MPG for vehicles, hence the new EPA standards. With the new 2008 EPA standards, many of us (myself included) get *better* MPG than the EPA estimates. In highway-only driving, I very easily get 36MPG (at 80mph, no less), and usually get closer to 40MPG. In stop-and-go city-only driving I routinely get 31MPG. And I'm no grandma. I have an 08 Civic LX, Manual. Check out the actual MPG thread, or go over to 8thcivic forums and see what those of us with non-si's get for actual MPG.
So, back to my point.
When comparing actual MPG between the non-si Civic and the Hybrid, there's just not much room for an HX. The regular civics get great gas mileage (in most cases better than EPA), and because of that, the HX doesn't have a substantial enough market for those who want to get 39MPG over 35MPG, but don't want to pony up the 2 grand for 45MPG. It's just not worth the development cost.
So, you say there is no market for an HX with the LX out there - weren't both on the market for 10+ years? Did Honda keep making HX's for 10 years because there was no market for them due to the LX?
"We have revised the 1985-2007 MPG estimates to make them comparable to the new 2008 and later MPG estimates!"
Right. Which is why the HX CVT gets 30/36 under 2008 rules versus an LX Auto getting 25/36. The Manual version of the HX gets 31/40mpg under the new estimates, versus 26/34 for the current LX manual, thus showing that the old Civic HX gets 5-6 mpg better than a current 1.8L Civic.
It's what I said in the first place, my friend.
With the new 2008 EPA standards, many of us (myself included) get *better* MPG than the EPA estimates.
As do I in my Accord; who is to say you wouldn't beat the estimates in the HX just as well?
It'll be interesting to see if Honda offers on the Civic an improved R18 with the Advanced VTEC valvetrain, which may improve fuel efficiency another 10-12%.
Actually, Honda demonstrated its Advanced VTEC prototype engine some two years ago, just about the time of the introduction of the current generation Civic. So there's still hope we might just see an Advanced VTEC R18 as early as the beginning of calendar year 2009.
Right now, the Civic is a class-leader in fuel economy anyway, although it is down a few horsepower to vehicles like the Cobalt and Mazda 3i.
What's interesting is that Mazda3 sales have been hurt by the fact the Duratec I-4 engines have much poorer fuel economy compared to the excellent R18 engine the Civic uses. Small wonder why there's been a lot of incentives to try to sell more Mazda3's here in the USA.
I'd love to see a sales chart!
I could not agree with you more. If the 148 bhp engine had the 5AT unit, I think Mazda could likely improve especially the EPA highway rating quite a bit, because at freeway speeds it means the engine could rev at lower RPM's for better fuel efficiency.
Since Mazda is 33.9% owned by Ford, the next-generation Mazda3 now in late development could end up using the Powershift dual-clutch transmission Ford co-developed with Getrag (it's already available on certain European Ford Focus models). Given that Powershift is a six-speed unit, that could result in excellent fuel economy regardless of engine installed in the new Mazda3 (which is rumored to arrive spring 2009 worldwide).
CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/BLACK
ATOMIC BLUE METAL/GRAY
ROYAL BLUE PEARL/GRAY
CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/GRAY
POLISHED METAL METALLIC/GRAY
RALLYE RED/BLACK
ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/BLACK
ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/GRAY
TAFFETA WHITE/GRAY
Sedan Colors
CRYSTAL BLACK PEARL/GRAY
ATOMIC BLUE METAL/GRAY
URBAN TITANIUM METALLIC/BEIGE
ROYAL BLUE PEARL/GRAY
POLISHED METAL METALLIC/GRAY
TANGO RED PEARL/BEIGE
ALABASTER SILVER METALLIC/GRAY
TAFFETA WHITE/BEIGE
No black on the sedan. I didn't have access to it. LX gets less color/interior choices. The DX trim will be the base trim. VP will also be available. The VP is probably a DX with AC and a radio/cd player. No VP coupe. Just LX as the base for the coupe. LX-S is also coming out which is in between the LX and EX. Hope this helps.
The Sandman
Just spitballing here, using the previous 2005 LX Special Edition and Accord LX-P as a guide.