Buying Luxury used cars

jacobkori

It seems as if used car prices are 25% cheaper in US than - I can imagine that 50% of all cars coming into the country come from US, imported by dealers.

We plan to cut out the middle man and come in by ferry to Arizona and then find a used car dealer there.

Can anyone recommend any websites where we can find details of the major used car dealerships in Arizona?

Many thanks for your help with this.

Kirstie_H

Are you asking about classic luxury used cars, or just regular old used cars? And, from what country are you travelling? I think you're in the wrong place, but I'd like to help you find the right discussion.

dianejsmith

Ok just go the side www.autobandits.com and get very advance tool for this type Service …
There is online Form you just fill from and tell him what you're looking for? He was contact to you.

I hope this is help post for you…

Kirstie_H

The original poster wasn't looking for on-line services... he/she is inquiring about dealerships in Arizona, specifically.

dianejsmith

this is on-line-service !!!

speedboy

hi,
check out zibe or hendrickcars. They are located close by

hpmctorque

I debated in which discussion to place this message, and decided that this discussion is about as appropriate as a couple of others.

Anyhow, as the owner of a well maintained '87 BMW E30, I sometimes buy "Bimmer" magazine. One of the features of this magazine is "Tech Q & A."
In Tech Q & A, and throughout this magazine there's frequent mention of the fact that while BMWs are rewarding to drive and enjoyable own, they're high maintenance. Parts and labor are expensive. In addition, in the most recent issue, in the article "Living Large On Small Claims," about the appeal of buying older BMWs for a maximum if $5,000, they state that BMW parts and components, such as water pumps, generally don't last as long as Japanese and domestic brand parts. This begs the questions, "why?", and "must it be like this." As a manufacturer of quality products, shouldn't BMW components last at least as long as those from the more mass market auto makers? Why can't BMWs be designed to retain their attributes, while reducing the cost of ownership?

It seems to me that the same questions could apply to Mercedes and Audi.

Now, I know that some Japanese, cars such as the Infiniti Q45, for example, are also expensive to maintain and repair. However, I believe that their components last longer, and they require less frequent maintenance. Also, the Q45 isn't exactly representative of Japanese luxury cars.

The Acura TL, which is sometimes cross-shopped with the BMW 3-Series, despite being FWD, is significantly less expensive to own than its German counterparts. I know first hand, because I also own a TL with 115,000 miles on it.

Mr_Shiftright

It could be that the cars are more "narrowly engineered" that is to give maximum performance within a certain range of parameters. To achieve this level of precision, it might be that wear and tear is just higher than some cushy squish-bucket bouncing down the road at 1800 rpms.

hpmctorque

"It could be..."

Maybe, but aren't Infinities, Acuras, and RWD Lexuses similarly narrowly engineered? I assume you make a distinction between precisely engineered and narrowly engineered for performance, because one could argue that ordinary Toyotas and Hondas, as well as other cars today, are precisely engineered. Toyotas and Hondas, especially, are known for having close tolerances. I'm thinking that they're perhaps comparable to at least the near-luxury models from Germany, in terms of precision.

I know what I'm about to say is probably controversial, but I'm wondering whether the German luxury brand manufacturers charge more for parts because they're less efficient than the Japanese and Americans, and must subsidize their margins on car sales by charging more for parts. And might the less frequent maintenance intervals for the leading Japanese brands, for timing belts, water pumps, and even drive belts and hoses be due to their superior quality?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think narrow engineering and precision engineering are the same thing....they may overlap but narrow engineering involves more compromises. It's no accident that a Lexus does not even feel remotely like a BMW.

I think where there is no excuse to be made for German cars is in the electronics. They just don't have that down apparently.

You buy a Toyota, or even a Scion, and you turn the key and drive away and hardly touch the thing for the next 100, 000 miles; but a German car, you'd be lucky to make it a year without some electrical failure.

hpmctorque

Fortunately for the German cars, their Japanese and American counterparts tend to be more generic and less exciting to drive, which permits the German auto makers to charge more to those who want to drive something that's less ordinary, and more engaging. This is a much narrower niche of the market than the one for economical and reliable transportation modules, but that niche is apparently sufficient to satisfy the German luxury brands. Volkswagen, on the other hand, is much more ambitious, in terms of volume.

If Audi, BMW and Mercedes have reason to be concerned with the possibility that the Japanese brands could eventually succeed in adding excitement and more heritage to their cars, the Japanese should be concerned that VW could match them on reliability and price, in the next few years.

fintail

I'd say the Japanese acquiring German heritage and driving quality is about as likely as VW approaching Japanese reliability. I won't hold my breath

A key to older luxury cars is parts availability. This is why old Audis are cast off - parts can be insanely hard to find - and this is part of why old MB can soldier on forever, as one can get parts for a 50 year old car right from the dealer. Having aftermarket support helps too.

A sidemarker bulb on my E55 died yesterday, so when I was out shopping I thought I'd pick one up. I looked in the little book, it gave me the bulb code...I thought the one it referenced seemed odd somehow, but the book said so...I got it home, popped the lens off - not even close. That kind of thing can be a problem too.

Mr_Shiftright

Also $1000 for headlights for an old Audi is no fun.(includes outer lenses).

fintail

That's crazy...I can get OEM Bosch Euro assemblies for virtually any old MB for a bit less than that, and decent aftermarket ones for far less.

fintail

Speaking of used lux, here's some depreciation...maybe a little miled up for my tastes, but that's a decent price. This economy is destroying the residuals of highline cars.

Mr_Shiftright

Look at the mileage though. That's a huge deduct. Think of how scary it's going to be to fix this car out of warranty AFTER you've paid $30K for it. You can gobble up $3,000-$5,000 in one repair order, no problem, on these cars if some sophisticated system goes awry.

Just for instance, on this particular car:

Alternator = $1170 + 2.2 labor = (in california) + tax = $1, 560. 00

Starter: $525 + 1.2 labor = $729

Stability Control Module: $1,190 + .5 hr = $1, 355.00

Radiator: $488 + coolant + 2.6 hr labor = $986.00

hpmctorque

With repair expenses like that, my guess is that the majority of people who buy these used cars have little idea about what they're getting into. How could it be otherwise? The economics of owning such a car just make no sense. And with the number of complex electronic features increasing yearly, It'll only get worse. Of course, this recession will sober up some would-be buyers.

I wish Mercedes, BMW and Audi would each offer one model in North America with fewer electronic features (call it the Mercedes E350DR, for deep recession...I guess now you know why I haven't been extended an offer to be Marketing Manager for Daimler Benz NA).

texases

"I wish Mercedes, BMW and Audi would each offer one model in North America with fewer electronic features"

My wish has always been for a 530i without idrive, sunroof, etc...but then where would BMW make all its money :mad:

fintail

Those components are pretty durable on those cars. If anything is going to go, it is the Active Body Control, or maybe some computer related engine sensors. The ABC is probably 5K in itself. One should spend the 3-4K for a warranty on one of those, even if everything has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. Dangerous, but attractive...it'll sell pretty quickly I bet. And keep it away from the dealer.

The 2000-2002 models are much riskier.

fintail

Imagine a roll down window normal suspended tex-upholstered manual-option E-class, with diesels too. The same for the C. Less profit margins, but volume can sometimes compensate for that.

Mr_Shiftright

Let's face it---if you have an unlikely but possible major electronic screw-up on a car like that, you can just throw it away.

complex high end luxury cars of the 21st century will be......

I PREDICT!!

"The very first cars to be totalled by insurance companies strictly for electronic failures".

hpmctorque

I wouldn't choose the Active Body Control option, so its reliability wouldn't be an issue for me. In fact, I'm not sure I'd want it even if it were free. To me, it's overkill. How do you feel about this, fintail, and others?

Am I in the minority in thinking that simplicity is a virtue?

What I value most in German luxury cars are the driving dynamics, the ride, the feel and, to an extent, the interior and exterior syling (particularly in Audi and Mercedes).

jorg1

i need 5 bmw luxury cars all cars must have white colors same logos on each side and have the beam lite in each car. they seats of the cars should also be in white color. any rental service anyone of you know plz tell me

Thanks

Mr_Shiftright

www.autotrader.com

Do "advanced search".

fintail

The problem is that in most really desireable 2003+ models, you can't escape overly complicated suspension management systems. The last E55 to lack them was in 2002. All S class since 2000 have had them and airmatic has been working its way into normal E class too. In 20 years I fear these suspension systems will be a real achilles heel to these cars, should they still be on the road then. It'd be something to have a strippo Euro style model line in NA again, but MB marketing seems to be on a longterm bling fixation, so that hubcapped manual window C class won't be in your future.

The W210 E55, like the one I have, is considered to be the most reliable AMG e-class, because of its lack of gadgets for the sake of gadgets. Some creature comforts are fun, but they have to keep working after 6 months is reached. I value the same things you do, especially the feel and styling, and I appreciate the heritage.

fintail

In another 10 years or so, a W220 S class listing on a broken airmatic system will be considered a total loss, no doubt. Maybe someone will devise a means to retrofit them to a normal suspension, if it's even possible.

Mr_Shiftright

The basic laws of economics will kick in, and they will be cruel. Old Benz sedans won't have any real value so repairing them at great cost would have to be a totally irrational act. And sure, you will find the occasional irrational car lover, but for the most part there are definite limits as to how much the average person will sink into an old 4-door car.

Sure a rare Bugatti is another story-- Ralph Lauren spent one million bucks to RESTORE one!

You really need WILL POWER when it comes to old luxury cars---you have to know when to just walk away, take your losses and be done with it.

fintail

The same reason no sane person would restore a 6.9 today, and 6.3 restoration is for the rich and eccentric. Nobody would restore a W126 either, but there are enough nice ones out there to meet demand, and they hold up pretty well, no massive component failure to plague an entire platform like in later models. I suspect that won't be the case with modern cars.

hpmctorque

"Imagine a roll down window normal suspended tex-upholstered manual-option E-class, with diesels too. The same for the C. Less profit margins, but volume can sometimes compensate for that."

Yes, less profit margin, and the added volume might or might not compensate for that. It would probably fall short. But, then, I read that Daimler-Benz will probably offer its next generation B-Class car in the U.S., and maybe even its A-Class, and these probably have narrower margins too.

fintail

MB has to make insane profits from its overpriced ala carte options strategy. Allowing for really stripped cars would probably not work, especially with a strong Euro and a weak economy in general. It's a nice thought though. It'd also be cool to have a car with an AMG engine but none of the other bling and geegaws.

B class has had moderate success in Canada - but if you load it up it is hilariously expensive. It does exist in relatively lower trim too though. A class...I'll have to see it to believe it.

NastleVV

Hi,
I think this would be real competition that the Japanese are trying their level best to compete with the Germans.

New Cars

fintail

On this subject, I have pretty much told myself I am going to keep away from the really modern cars and drive my old school E55 as long as I really like it - not going to give in to temptation. However, once the C63 depreciates to my level, it might be hard to resist.

Yesterday I went to the dealer to get a replacement for my dead sidemarker bulb, as it is closer than any parts store and I don't trust the parts shop books now that one referred me to the wrong bulb. They gave me the bulb for free. Worth no more than a buck no doubt, but a nice gesture.

hpmctorque

Yes, that was a nice gesture.

Circling back to a recent message where I listed the attributes that I value most in German luxury cars, how could I forget the seats? They're usually the best-in-class, in my opinion. They're comfortable and supportive.

fintail

The seats in my E55 are very good too, supportive in the right places, you can drive for hours with no pain. The seats being upholstered with nice nappa leather doesn't hurt either. I like the BMW style of extendable thigh support, I haven't seen this on other makes.

The fintail has big squashy old seats...lots of room, and enough support to keep you in place (as you won't be generating too many gs in it anyway). It's what I imagine an old fashioned airplane seat to be like, somehow.

bumpy

I dunno; the seats in my dad's E320 were supportive but I just never liked them at all. I like the seats in the smart a lot more.

andre1969

how do BMW seats tend to compare with Mercedes seats? The only German car I've ever logged any considerable seat time in is my buddy's 2002 or so 5-series. After about an hour, my thighs started to ache a bit and I was getting restless.

Still, by my standards, a seat that I can last an hour in is actually pretty good! My uncle's 2003 Corolla starts irritating me after about 10 minutes!

fintail

My car has the pneumatic multicontour seat adjustments too, that might make a difference. I haven't spent more than a few seconds in a Smart.

fintail

I'd say on average BMW seats have more support and are maybe even a little firmer - to go with the sportier quality of the cars, I guess. That 5er should have the adjustable thigh support section too, maybe that would have helped. I once rode in an X5 that had extremely comfortable seats, it was amazing.

I see German car seats as made for people who are maybe a little taller and heavier than average - as Germans can be.

texases

"I see German car seats as made for people who are maybe a little taller and heavier than average - as Germans can be. "

Not only Germans...my '83 GTI fit my 6'5" fine, the seats were very comfortable. It amazes me that so many US and Japanese makers design uncomfortable seats - just go buy a Recaro and copy it! I spent 4 hrs being tortured by the squishy seats in an Escalade - and they must have cost big $$.

bumpy

Bigger heads, too?

That fintail 190D that apparently lives at the local body shop has headrests with what looks like a semicircle carved out of the top and a big indentation in the face.

fintail

Headrests were dealer installed options on fintails, and I assume some aftermarket variants existed too. I know the most common ones have chrome loops that mount them to the seatback, kind of odd. They are relatively rare.

fintail

A big squishy seat with no lateral or lower support can be the worst kind, even if a larger person can easily fit in it.

Speakingof Recaro seats, I saw a pic of an 80s AMG SEC that had Recaro seats, with huge vintage tech controllers at the sides. Somehow, very cool.

Mr_Shiftright

Back in the old days, when Shifty worked for Mercedes Benz NA and dinosaurs freely roamed the earth, just at the end of the Indian Wars and the recession of the last glaciers----Mercedes got a LOT of complaints from new, first-time, American Mercedes owners (this is early 1970s, before electric lighting and indoor toilets) about how HARD the seat were.

Americans were so used to driving mom's sofa or a block of ice with a steering wheel, that the Benz characteristics of firm suspension, firm seating, precise shifting and REALLY good brakes were a shock to former Cadillac owners.

Some never ever made the adjustment and they went back to Pillowville.

fintail

You even had a fintail when it wasn't a remarkably old car, so you must be a real relic :P

Firm supportive seats are better for long trips if you are even slightly above average in size. Looking at the market now, it looks like people realized luxury doesn't have to be button-tufted with ocean liner handling.

Mr_Shiftright

I am a relic. I'm actually dead but I'm channeling the body of the guy you see in the Carspace photo. He's not in bad shape for his age actually and I may be able to use his body for another 20 years.

I had a fintail in 1971, which I traded in for a brand new 280SL pagoda which I ordered with a manual transmission. Benz sold me that car for $10,800 !!. Of course, that WAS a year's salary back then.

I've owned quite a few "risky" used luxury cars, including: BMW 735i, MB 300D, 300SD, 560SEL, 560SL, Audi 100, (sorta luxury), Jaguar XJ6 (sold quickly after just READING about the car's problems, which it didn't have at the time), Alfa 164LS (quite luxurious). Also a few Cadillacs, etc. passed through my hands but I didn't own them but for a few days.

My strategy was always to buy very *very* well-cared for luxury cars that someone else had JUST dumped a boatload of money into, then drive them a quick 5K--10K and then bail out while everything was still okay.

I pretty much escaped serious internal injuries on ALL of the above. The only "quasi-luxury" cars that really beat me up were Saab Turbo convertibles.

fintail

Today a plain new SL will set you back twice the average income, you got a bargain ...I know in those inflationary times, those things had amazing resale value too...I have some NADA/KBB books from 1976, and late pagodas booked at nearly original MSRP.

Is there a luxury car that isn't risky? Even the old Japanese makes have their drawbacks. The bigger they are, the harder they fall...anyone want a 1983 Rolls? Didn't think so.

Mr_Shiftright

Well there's risk and there's RISK.

One thing you have to do is really study the reputation of various cars. There's a good deal of "collective wisdom" out there which is often worth ten Haynes manuals or 100 Klick and Klack radio shows.

Some luxury cars, I'd bet on, and some I'd bet against.

BWM 3 series? Replace the radiator, thermostat and water pump and be happy for the duration.

BWM 5 series? I'm betting you'll be pretty much okay.

BMW 750 series? May God have mercy on your soul.

Audi Allroad? Good luck, you'll probably need it.

Jaguar X Type? you poor thing

Mercedes 300E -- I'd bet in your favor here.

83 Rolls? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

lemko

A 1983 Rolls-Royce would be an excellent car to give to somebody you hate. It's the ultimate white elephant!



For some reason I think of old "Dallas" reruns when I see these '80s Rollses.

Mr_Shiftright

Elephanto Blanco, world-class edition.

You could double the price of the car in one visit to the repair shop-----EASY. I just saw a repair bill for a 71' Corniche.....brakes, tires, suspension, blah blah...car has 88,000 miles on it....the bill? $19,500.

fintail

Notice as the car gets bigger, so do the pitfalls. A cared for old 5er or E is a relatively safe bet. A nice looking 7er or S can destroy a man, V12 models especially. A 2001 S600 can be had for under 20 grand now if you shop around, and that's for a car with acceptable mileage. Just imagine the potential expenses.

A coworker of mine has an Allroad...bought to replace a V70 that was out of warranty and nickeling-and-diming him to death (he's pretentious and hauls a couple dogs - he sees himself as being above a Subaru). Now the Audi is getting expensive, apparently an involved brake job is required now.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see how you could even FIX an S600 unless you went to Benz school AND had all the special tools and books. I don't even think a Benz dealer knows how to fix them.