Another of my pet definitions for a "true" luxury car is that it is a car to which people never add anything aftermarket. You'll see bling on an Escalade but not very often on a BMW 750iL or a Maybach or an Audi A8 or a Benz 600.
Well okay, unless you're a rock star and you haven't been sober for three years.
I've kept my 325 because I like the car and how it drives, and the fact that you don't see an E30 at every intersection anymore. These are emotional reasons that are hard to assign a dollar value to, Why have you kept yours?
For many of the same reasons you listed - fun to drive (though a tad slow) even after 22 years, and the fact that E30s are not quite as common as Civics :P . Also, it's not costing me very much for insurance, tags, etc. I have it registered as a historic vehicle so I no longer have to do the emissions test thing. Even maintenance/repairs have only run me around $300/year for the last 3 years or so. So it's really not costing me much at all to keep it. I'm just waiting for that big ticket item (clutch???) to go to justify getting rid of it.
"I'm just waiting for that big ticket item (clutch???) to go to justify getting rid of it."
The problem when something like that goes is that you get practically nothing for an old car.
I'm trying to weigh whether, even with relatively high maintenance going forward, whether maintenance and repairs are likely to cost less than the depreciation on a new Civic (or something comparable).
I've checked out six different 5 series, model years 1997-2002, mileage 70K-151K.
Of them, only one had a radio that had a readable display (and it was starting to lose pixels). Most or all had majorly groaning power seat motors. One had a smell of antifreeze of indeterminate origin. All seemed to have some amount of oil leaking. One had an a/c that blew warm for 5 minutes at startup, then suddenly became ice cold. One had a tachometer that didn't work at all. A few of them had cracked wood on the console. Two had airbag lights on.
The good news is that all drove great. In any case, it left me a little discouraged about finding the "right" 5 series. I looked at two 2003 Infiniti G35s with 100K on them. Everything worked perfectly on them and neither had ever had anything done other than routine maintenance items.
That doesn't surprise me. My son's 2002(?) Acura TL Type S has around 100K miles on it, and, so far as I know, has never been in the shop except for when he hit a big rock that took out the oil pan and then this past winter slid into a curb in the snow.
Sounds like we are looking at the same class of cars. Did you drive the G35s? If so, how did you like them compared to the BMWs?
Depends on how it was taken care of. If they deferred many of the maintenance issues, then you get stuck with the bill at the end of the meal, not them. About 80K is when the bill starts to become due, so your experience suggests to me that what you had was a car that was "just driven" and not kept up properly.
My strategy on 5 series is buy cheap as you can, as low miles as you can, and review all service records. These 3 mitigating factors will improve your odds of having a good experience. It's not like a 10 year old 5 series is easy to sell anymore---it's not. You can bargain hard on these cars.
Did you see that 5 series wagon, 6 speed manual, that I posted in the other forum? Looked great, although pricey, until I saw that it had been in an accident....
Lemmer's experience with those E39 5-Series cars mirrors that of mine. I too looked at a few of them a couple of months ago, mostly 1997-99 528i's. All of them had mileages ranging from 100k-140k, but I was appalled at how they needed obvious work done. The problems ranged from a non-functioning radio, unreadable climate control display, and even rust on the door bottoms on one of them. Needless to say, I passed.
On the other hand, I checked out a Lincoln Town Car from the same era, with respectable mileage (80k), and everything was working as it should, and felt solid to me. Then again, a Ford Panther platform is much more simple and easier to maintain than any E39 5 Series.
Sorry guys, but when I think old luxury cars I'm stuck in the land yacht Caddy and Duece and a quarter days - you could cruise all day on the interstate and never get tired in those old beasts!
lemmer: If I may ask, what kind of price did you have in mind?
Here's an 2006 530i with a 6 speed manual, which I think would be my favorite combo (not that I've ever driven one) for c. $23K in Dallas. Has c.40,000 miles, and still a few months of factory warranty left. I imagine it had an msrp of 50k or so....
Given their premium pricing, why can't Audi, BMW and Mercedes match the Japanese luxury brands on reliability and durability, other than engines? I suppose the cynical answer would be with another question, such as "why can't the Japanese make a car that feels as good to drive as a BMW?" There's got to be a better answer, however.
Germans seem to have a "innovation for the sake of innovation" mindset when it comes to automotive electrics - which means results are mixed at best. Germans are engine builders, not electronic gadgetry builders, it seems.
This is a far cry from those mastodon Caddies and Electra 225's, but yesterday, I had a chance to sit in a 1981 Imperial. Downright dainty compared to the big beasts that came before, but I swear that was one of the most comfortable cars I've sat in in a long, long time. The seats were thick and supportive, with plenty of legroom. The only thing really lacking was good side bolstering, but with the way you'd sink down in those seats, I imagine they'd hold you in place as you pushed those transverse torsion bars, leaf springs, and 75-series tires to their limit. :P
The only thing I didn't like about it was the headroom. This car had a sunroof, which cut into the headroom a bit. While my head doesn't hit the ceiling, I could feel it brushing faintly against my hair.
Do you have a picture of that puppy? Remember that one being advertised, I think, by a combo of Iacocca and Sinatra--the Chairman of the Board talks to the Chairman of the Board, or something like that....Sinatra says in print something like, "You really went all out for this baby, didn't you?"
Unfortunately I don't have a pic of it, but I know the owner and he's local, so the next time I see that car I'll make sure to get a pic of it. Now it's not the most attractive color in the world...it's brown! With a beige interior, and snowflake wheels. It's in pretty nice shape, and still has its fuel injection system intact. It was common back in the day to convert these things to 2-bbl carburetors, as the fuel injection could be troublesome. Also, it wasn't a Frank Sinatra edition. I don't think it was any type of special edition at all, just a regular Imperial, but still pretty nice.
Here's a pic of a 1981-ish Imperial that I took last year, though, outside my mechanic's shop...
It's a camera phone pic, so not the best in the world. And that 2-tone beige beast with the copcar hubcap on it next to the Imp is my '79 5th Ave!
And what a menagerie in the background - a couple of 60s Dart/Valiant wagons, a Vista Cruiser, what looks like an early Bronco, an 80s minivan, and a MB R107.
I think that Bronco-looking thing is actually an old 60's Land Cruiser! As for the Benz, it's actually for sale. Here's the ad. I think the pictures make it look better than in real life, but it may have been freshly washed for those pics. I also remember it having a big chunk taken out of the driver's seat, like a pit bull got ahold of it or something! I think it's still pretty solid, though.
andre: yes--that was the car Sinatra advertised. Bustle back was rather like the Caddy from the same year, wasn't it.
Speaking of used luxury, have you guys heard of Jack Rebney, aka "Winnebago Man"? He was a salesman of lux Winnebago's in the late 80s and 90s. He had anger management issues. They've strung together some outtakes of his commercials that went wrong. There's language. I won't post a youtube link in case that's against the rules. But if you want to look it up you can. There are different versions, but I suggest "Winnebago Man - Ultimate Extreme Edition." It can put a bad day you've had in perspective. He seems to have had a lot of bad days. It's maybe disturbing, maybe funny, maybe annoying, maybe all of that depending on how you look at it, I guess...
That SL looks hopeless. I think that's about the worst year for them, pretty terrible period color, poor cosmetics. The bolsters on the seats often decay with age, that could be it. A pristine example of that year would be lucky to go over 10K, that one is a ways off.
Hilarious, inspiration for Tourettes Guy. Not a stretch for me to act that way about the defective computer systems at work or the asinine traffic control measures where I live.
The only thing really lacking was good side bolstering, but with the way you'd sink down in those seats, I imagine they'd hold you in place as you pushed those transverse torsion bars, leaf springs, and 75-series tires to their limit.
What, you mean like going around an exit ramp at 25 mph :P :P ?
LOL, yeah, something like that! FWIW, I had a 1989 Gran Fury, which underneath is the same thing as an '81 Imperial, and it handled great. However, it was also an ex police car. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to swap some of the heavy duty components onto an Imperial, to improve handling. I guess that would pretty much kill the ride, though.
"Handling" is a very elusive term. You can stiffen an old car up so that it more or less behaves itself on a flat level surface type of road, but that same car, when it hits some ruts or bumps at speed, can turn into a pogo stick with that very same "stiff" suspension.
Aside from the mushy, hippo-on-ice steering of most American so-called "luxury" cars of that era (and at least well into the 90s), you had to fight those marginal OEM tires, which I'm sure cost about $5 a piece, if that, at the factory. So stiffening the suspension also required a substantial upgrade in tires and brakes, or what you ended up with was a car that "handled" well until oh my god it didn't anymore.
I drove a late 80s T-Bird that had ALL the upgrades, + engine work, and it really did handle great. But that's after about $5,000 in mods.
All of that is a big reason why people started buying German cars, no doubt.
Even my fintail has OK handling (I am sure you remember - a bit of lean, but it can corner), and of course the E55 is amazing for something of its size and mass.
So much slower off the line...but when you have to turn, it actually keeps up.
That reminds me - I recently saw the "Africa" special episode of Top Gear, and May chose a W123 as his car for the journey. It was too heavy for a soft salt flat, so they removed all of the body panels and interior. Clarkson joked that MB has never made a rally car. He must not know about the fintails! From 1960-65 they won dozens of events.
You can now buy a fully fettled classic Mercedes from the factory or from a British specialist.
By Martin Buckley and Paul Hudson Published: 1:16PM BST 19 May 2009
There has long been a keen following for classic Mercedes-Benz cars, and now the German giant is cashing in by selling and leasing cool but useable older cars.
It is marketing hand-picked examples from the 1960s, 70s and 80s, backed by a 12-month warranty. Each has a full service history and no more than 150,000 kilometres (93,000 miles) on the clock. They come, for the most part, from private sellers and receive a thorough check by Mercedes technicians before being passed for the Young Classic showroom.
"'The target group is not the person who likes to work on the car themselves," says project manager Kerstin Heiligenstetter. "Our customer wants to be treated as if he is buying a new Mercedes-Benz. He wants the emotion of having an old car but not the problems."
The definition of what makes a Mercedes Young Classic has been kept loose as the project finds its way, but includes everything from a £12,500 280TE estate from the mid-eighties to a £45,000 sixties 280SE coupe. Interest centres on SL sports cars of the seventies (think Pam Ewing in Dallas) the big S-class (think JR Ewing) and super-tough W123 saloons. Many of the cars on offer are painted lurid period colours favoured by the Germans in the seventies.
If the Young Classics proves popular it may be rolled out across Germany. There's just one catch; Mercedes-Benz UK says it has no plan to extend the scheme here.
That's very cool. "Youngtimers" (cars of the 70s and 80s, as opposed to "Oldtimers") have been a huge segment of the vintage car hobby in Germany for some time now. The 123 and 126 series cars are the keystone of 'youngtimers' for MB as they are so durable and parts are still easy to find. I am sure a little profit can be made in this - the inflated selling prices of the cars will likely far exceed any warranty claims.
I'm planning on spending a little time in Germany later this year - maybe I should splurge and rent one of those old cars for a day or two..
I'm not so sure every old Benz lover is quite willing to tolerate some of the...shall we say...less than marvelous qualities of a few of these older models. Do they REALLY want the vapor lock problems of the 60s carburetor car or some of the V8 SLs? (or the fuel mileage?). Or ANYTHING made by Benz in the 70s?
That is a very good point. However, the driving experience, when everything is working right, would be very rewarding for the right type of owner. It would be even better if such a classic were a second car.
It would HAVE to be a second car I think. The 60s and 70s cars really aren't up to modern driving conditions, day after day---especially in hotter climates, or in mountains, heavy traffic, etc. A mid-80s Benz would be all right.
Comments
Well okay, unless you're a rock star and you haven't been sober for three years.
Regards,
OW
Shifty's not spending much time with the NFL/NBA/MLB set, we see....
Jiggsy Customs...Staten Island...shocking! :shades:
If you want period bling, find a 126 Koenig Special:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdReOg0XyMg
For many of the same reasons you listed - fun to drive (though a tad slow) even after 22 years, and the fact that E30s are not quite as common as Civics
The problem when something like that goes is that you get practically nothing for an old car.
I'm trying to weigh whether, even with relatively high maintenance going forward, whether maintenance and repairs are likely to cost less than the depreciation on a new Civic (or something comparable).
Of them, only one had a radio that had a readable display (and it was starting to lose pixels). Most or all had majorly groaning power seat motors. One had a smell of antifreeze of indeterminate origin. All seemed to have some amount of oil leaking. One had an a/c that blew warm for 5 minutes at startup, then suddenly became ice cold. One had a tachometer that didn't work at all. A few of them had cracked wood on the console. Two had airbag lights on.
The good news is that all drove great. In any case, it left me a little discouraged about finding the "right" 5 series. I looked at two 2003 Infiniti G35s with 100K on them. Everything worked perfectly on them and neither had ever had anything done other than routine maintenance items.
Sounds like we are looking at the same class of cars. Did you drive the G35s? If so, how did you like them compared to the BMWs?
My strategy on 5 series is buy cheap as you can, as low miles as you can, and review all service records. These 3 mitigating factors will improve your odds of having a good experience. It's not like a 10 year old 5 series is easy to sell anymore---it's not. You can bargain hard on these cars.
On the other hand, I checked out a Lincoln Town Car from the same era, with respectable mileage (80k), and everything was working as it should, and felt solid to me. Then again, a Ford Panther platform is much more simple and easier to maintain than any E39 5 Series.
Here's an 2006 530i with a 6 speed manual, which I think would be my favorite combo (not that I've ever driven one) for c. $23K in Dallas. Has c.40,000 miles, and still a few months of factory warranty left. I imagine it had an msrp of 50k or so....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/06-BMW-530I-1-OWNER-FACT-WARRANTY-6-SPEED-MANUAL-- NICE_W0QQitemZ140318654754QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item20aba4c122&- _trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-2|39%3A1|240%3A1308
Regards,
OW
The only thing I didn't like about it was the headroom. This car had a sunroof, which cut into the headroom a bit. While my head doesn't hit the ceiling, I could feel it brushing faintly against my hair.
Here's a pic of a 1981-ish Imperial that I took last year, though, outside my mechanic's shop...
It's a camera phone pic, so not the best in the world. And that 2-tone beige beast with the copcar hubcap on it next to the Imp is my '79 5th Ave!
Speaking of used luxury, have you guys heard of Jack Rebney, aka "Winnebago Man"? He was a salesman of lux Winnebago's in the late 80s and 90s. He had anger management issues. They've strung together some outtakes of his commercials that went wrong. There's language. I won't post a youtube link in case that's against the rules. But if you want to look it up you can. There are different versions, but I suggest "Winnebago Man - Ultimate Extreme Edition." It can put a bad day you've had in perspective. He seems to have had a lot of bad days. It's maybe disturbing, maybe funny, maybe annoying, maybe all of that depending on how you look at it, I guess...
That SL looks hopeless. I think that's about the worst year for them, pretty terrible period color, poor cosmetics. The bolsters on the seats often decay with age, that could be it. A pristine example of that year would be lucky to go over 10K, that one is a ways off.
I'm working at one of the singapore used car exporting company.
thank you
What, you mean like going around an exit ramp at 25 mph :P :P ?
Aside from the mushy, hippo-on-ice steering of most American so-called "luxury" cars of that era (and at least well into the 90s), you had to fight those marginal OEM tires, which I'm sure cost about $5 a piece, if that, at the factory. So stiffening the suspension also required a substantial upgrade in tires and brakes, or what you ended up with was a car that "handled" well until oh my god it didn't anymore.
I drove a late 80s T-Bird that had ALL the upgrades, + engine work, and it really did handle great. But that's after about $5,000 in mods.
Even my fintail has OK handling (I am sure you remember - a bit of lean, but it can corner), and of course the E55 is amazing for something of its size and mass.
That reminds me - I recently saw the "Africa" special episode of Top Gear, and May chose a W123 as his car for the journey. It was too heavy for a soft salt flat, so they removed all of the body panels and interior. Clarkson joked that MB has never made a rally car. He must not know about the fintails! From 1960-65 they won dozens of events.
from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/classiccars/5349638/Top-Mercs-are-as-good-as- -new.html
Top Mercs are as good as new
You can now buy a fully fettled classic Mercedes from the factory or from a British specialist.
By Martin Buckley and Paul Hudson
Published: 1:16PM BST 19 May 2009
There has long been a keen following for classic Mercedes-Benz cars, and now the German giant is cashing in by selling and leasing cool but useable older cars.
It is marketing hand-picked examples from the 1960s, 70s and 80s, backed by a 12-month warranty. Each has a full service history and no more than 150,000 kilometres (93,000 miles) on the clock. They come, for the most part, from private sellers and receive a thorough check by Mercedes technicians before being passed for the Young Classic showroom.
"'The target group is not the person who likes to work on the car themselves," says project manager Kerstin Heiligenstetter. "Our customer wants to be treated as if he is buying a new Mercedes-Benz. He wants the emotion of having an old car but not the problems."
The definition of what makes a Mercedes Young Classic has been kept loose as the project finds its way, but includes everything from a £12,500 280TE estate from the mid-eighties to a £45,000 sixties 280SE coupe. Interest centres on SL sports cars of the seventies (think Pam Ewing in Dallas) the big S-class (think JR Ewing) and super-tough W123 saloons. Many of the cars on offer are painted lurid period colours favoured by the Germans in the seventies.
If the Young Classics proves popular it may be rolled out across Germany. There's just one catch; Mercedes-Benz UK says it has no plan to extend the scheme here.
More at http://young-classics.mercedes-benz-classic.com/
I'm planning on spending a little time in Germany later this year - maybe I should splurge and rent one of those old cars for a day or two..
If you can, go for a blast on the autobahn. That my friend is a religious experience!
Autobahn in an old 4cyl MB might not be so fun :shades:
I checked out their prices, and they are gigantic. If someone can afford to buy from them, they should be able to afford to deal with any problems.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m180/two2tone/MVC-001F.jpg
This is somebody else's car of course taken from a message in another forum, but I like it nonetheless.