Buying Luxury used cars

andre1969

What year is that? My mechanic has a Benz 280 something-or-other sitting in his parking lot that looks similar to that. It's a blue 4-door sedan with a 4.5 badge on the trunk. I have to run out there tonite to get my New Yorker, so while I'm there I'll have my buddy take a pic of it with his cell phone camera, cuz I'm sure Fintail will want to see!

At a quick glance it looks pretty nice, as the light blue paint is pretty shiny. But it has a few small rust holes peeking through along the bottom.

fintail

That's a LWB W108/109 of unknown year, ca. 1970. Probably a 280SEL.

A nice one can be easily found for 5 grand or so.

fintail

That would be a W108 LWB, probably from around 1970 like the pictured car. They still had a blue then similar to my fintail, but most were a medium or dark shade. That would be a V8 car, created for invading the NA market. Thirsty cars.

MBs of that era were skilled at rusting. Fintails were the same way.

andre1969

Well, I got distracted and forgot to take a pic of the thing, but I asked the mechanic about it. It's a 1972, 90,000 miles, and he's selling it. Asking $2,000. He said it's in good running condition, but just "needs dialing in", in his words. He says it needs the love and attention of a Mercedes guy, and that he just doesn't know enough about them to give it the attention it deserves.

Oh, and getting the NYer back from the mechanic ended up being a bit of an adventure. It stalled out just around the corner from his shop and wouldn't re-start. I called him and he came out to check on it. Couldn't figure out what it was, but then after about 5 minutes or so, it fired right up and ran fine. Damn thing must be possessed!

At this point, he said he can't figure out what would be causing it, as it's intermittent. He suspects the orange ECU box on the firewall might be acting up intermittently. My guess is the Lean Burn. I asked him about disabling it and just going with a regular, early '70's style electronic ignition, basically like what you can order through Mopar Performance. He's balking at that because, get this, he says my car is so nice and original, he doesn't want to "butcher" it up. LOL, I'm like the hell with it, if it keeps acting up, lets rip the whole thing out and throw in a big-block! :shades:

Anyway, the car did fine the rest of the way back from the shop. And once I got it home, I even tried turning it off and on a few times and it fired right up. But who knows? Maybe at this point, I would've been better off it I asked him to swap, my NYer for that Benz! :P

fezo

The good thing about pictures from Andre's mechanic's lot is that he doesn't have to identify that as such. One look and you know.

Vapor lock! That brings back a lovely memory of learning what it was and how to fix it on the side of the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut in my mom's 56 Buick. Luckily a guy pulled right up behind us, explained the whole thing and had us back on the road.

fintail

2 grand is probably harmless if it runs and drives, and that rust isn't structural. There's not a lot of upside with an unrestored 108 sedan, but there aren't many classier drivers/beaters in existence.

"Needs dialing in" sounds like code for "the FI is messed up and I can't figure it out"...but maybe all it needs is a tune up and timing work.

I had no second thoughts about putting electronic ignition in my fintail. It was still my daily driver at the time, and it's not some Pebble Beach-bound concours competitor, it's just a well kept old car. Driveability can trump originality, especially where few people will ever see it. The car started getting balky in damp weather, and that combined with the constant chore of maintaining the points made the decision easy for me. It's been pretty much problem free since.

I think when it comes to repair costs,your old NYer is a wiser choice. Although, there's no reason why couldn't have them both... :shades:

hpmctorque

My delayed response to my question, and to shifty's and fintail's answers(all posted below) is, how I wish BMW and Mercedes would offer decontented versions of the 3 and 5 Series, and C and E Classes, respectively. Just imagine how appealing such cars would be if they weren't so high maintenance. I wouldn't miss that leading edge electronic stuff, but I'd be ecstatic about owning a reliable example of these cars that's not a money pit after the warranty expires. I'll bet there are others who feel the same as me. Maybe these are available in other markets.

"Given their premium pricing, why can't Audi, BMW and Mercedes match the Japanese luxury brands on reliability and durability, other than engines? I suppose the cynical answer would be with another question, such as 'why can't the Japanese make a car that feels as good to drive as a BMW?' There's got to be a better answer, however."

Replies to this message:
Mr_Shiftright (May 18, 2009 2:25 pm)
fintail (May 18, 2009 2:37 pm)
Mr_Shiftright (May 18, 2009 3:00 pm)

#326 of 360 Re: Why? [hpmctorque] (Mr_Shiftright) HOST May 18, 2009 (2:25 pm)

"Too complex/ over-engineered?"


#327 of 360 Re: Why? [Mr_Shiftright] (fintail)
Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (May 18, 2009 2:25 pm)

"Germans seem to have a 'innovation for the sake of innovation' mindset when it comes to automotive electrics - which means results are mixed at best. Germans are engine builders, not electronic gadgetry builders, it seems."

fintail

Decontented Euro-style options would be very cool - manual transmission cloth interior cars with manual climate control etc. But I am certain the marketing types would reject the idea, as they are very image conscious, and their Japanese competitors don't offer such cars. They might see a lowline car as damaging image.

MB and BMW both started out in NA with more spartan models and the cars were a lot less complex until the mid 90s. Since then, everything we get is loaded by Euro standards.

lemmer

The other thing is decontenting wouldn't fix a lot of the issues I am seeing on used BMWs. They have weak cooling systems, suspensions that don't last to 100K (shocks are the one thing, but the whole front suspension), radio displays that crap out, etc.

On the other hand, I've decided that I'd rather have BMW vinyl than leather. It looks just as good and holds up far better.

As for me personally, I have just about given up on finding a decent sub $10K BMW. I am leaning towards an '03 G35, but part of me just wants to give up and buy a Lexus. I wonder if an ES300 with a great set of tires really feels significantly worse than a BMW in my daily drive to work.

Mr_Shiftright

the Lexus is a fine car but a mush-bucket to drive IMO. Bilstein shocks, excellent tires, some sway bar bushings, and better exhaust note might make a better faux BMW out of it however. That sounds like $1500 bucks or so.

lemmer

Have you ever driven a G35? They aren't mushy, but they just can't seem to get the "driving experience" details down like BMW does.

texases

While you'll enjoy the smooth ride and good interior of an ES, it'll never be near a BMW in handling. (I wish, I've looked into it for mine). But I'm commuting in Dallas, so it's a better fit for me. It's a Camry that's been improved in every way, but with no emphasis put on performance. The FWD character will always be there. I've put Avid H4s tires on mine, it's fine, but far from a performance sedan. Tire Rack lists no performance shocks for mine, nor for a 2003 ES. So I think you'd be better off with a G35, plenty of performance parts for it.

fintail

For MB, a lot of problems seem to come from gadgetry. The lowline cars are still used as taxis in Europe, that tells me in more basic form they are durable. But when the beta-version "tech" is slathered on the cars we get, the problems can arise.

Regarding the Lexus, maybe a GS would be easier to tune for driving enjoyment?

lemmer

You are right about the GS. I think it is definitely a better choice for performance.

bumpy

Wrong Lexus. IS300 manual with the sport package, if you can find one of the three that hasn't been molested yet.

lemko

Yeah! Get a big 440 V-8 with a 6-pack out of something like a 1969 Polara! Holy smoke, do you think a R-body could handle it? Imagine some knucklehead in his tacky (politically incorrect term) Honda being smoked by a 1979 New Yorker!!! :shades:

lemko

I'd be more likely to buy a Mercedes without all that unreliable "leading edge electronic stuff" to screw it up. It would be a nice solid dependable and durable car like a Buick.

lemko

...spotted an early '90s Lexus SC400 painted a garish purplish blue with a ridiculous spoiler and tacky chrome wheels with tires that stuck out about 2" from the lip of the wheel openings. It probably was once finished a tasteful silver gray. It was even more ridiculous-looking than the circa 1996 white Toyota Avalon with purple flames painted on the sides.

euphonium

Have you considered a Pertronix ignition system? No butchering involved.

andre1969

Have you considered a Pertronix ignition system? No butchering involved.

I dunno much about Pertronix. I've heard of them being used for converting the old points-and-condenser type ignition to electronic ignition, but would one of them work in place of a Mopar Lean Burn, which is electronic ignition?

texases

Doesnt' that Lean Burn include carb controls? The Pertronix parts wouldn't replace those, I think. I imagine you could replace the whole thing with an EFI setup ($$$$).

andre1969

Yeah, the Lean burn messes with the carb, as well as the distributor. It has a crude, probably Atari-2600 quality computer in it. I've heard that with Lean burn the way to go is get an electronic ignition kit from Mopar Performance. It includes a new distributor and ECU box, and wiring. I think you do have to make a few wiring mods, though. And you also have to drill a hole in the intake manifold for the distributor's vacuum advance, as the advance in the stock distributor is controlled by the Lean Burn.

One thing I guess I could try, is to swap the ECU box off my other New Yorker. That car has never given me any troubles (well, at least no random stalling/hard to start troubles). Then, I guess if the blue one starts running fine, but the other one develops fits, I'll know what the trouble was!

lemmer

I've tried the IS300. Although it ranks pretty high on the handling meter, the engine is kind of a dud and the interior is economy car level (other than the great seats). If I was to drop down a class to a less luxurious but "zippier" car, I'd much rather have an Acura TSX. The TSX manages to better the IS in almost every possible way (despite its front wheel drive layout).

hpmctorque

I think the previous generation Acura TL ('04-08) would come closer to a BMW 3 and 5-Series than the Lexus ES300, and you wouldn't have to modify it. It's also more refined than the Infiniti G35, although the G35 is rear wheel drive, while the TL isn't.

hpmctorque

All true. Too bad, though.

One way around the image issue might be to offer decontented models for one year only, to satisfy the demand. Then, return to the fully optioned business model they've been following for a few years and, if it worked well the first time, repeat the exercise.

hpmctorque

I agree with your first sentence. As for your second sentence, I wouldn't worry about the dependability or durability of either a Buick or a decontented Mercedes.

fintail

I like to think if the models were made special order, aimed at real enthusiasts, no harm would be done. Marketing costs would be negligible and volumes would be low, as not to impact overall image. But what do I know...

A manual diesel C or E class with a tex interior and no airmatic or COMAND etc would be interesting.

circlew

I wonder if an ES300 with a great set of tires really feels significantly worse than a BMW in my daily drive to work.

Not worse just very different and do not expect performance handling.

Regards,
OW

hpmctorque

The effect on image might even be enhanced if the impact on maintenance and repair, and reliability were positive enough. Consider the image hit Mercedes suffered with the problematic late '80s-early '00s models.

fintail

It would have to be a resurrection of the values that were seen in the 123 124 and 126 series cars - durability and longevity over bling. However, as people are more materialistic and image-conscious than ever, I don't know if the simple models would attract anything more than the established fan base. Maybe if public opinion changes and values quality over show, as it did for some at one time.

I've been reading a lot of good about the new E-class, but it will still be too fancy in the form sold here.

Mr_Shiftright

It's easier for a modest car company to go UP (toyota to Lexus) than for a prestigious one to go DOWN, IMO.

fintail

It takes longer, that's for sure. It took awhile for Caddy to reach humiliation, and with any luck MBs recent hiccups will be nothing more than a speedbump. New models in the past 2 or 3 years have shown a lot of promise to regain some of the old quality.

Mr_Shiftright

It's harder to restore a reputation than to build one, don't you think?

lemmer

I must have been really despondent when I said an ES. In my darkest moments, I don't think I could be convinced to buy one. Maybe a GS though. They aren't terrible.

fintail

By the time image has been drowned in muck, it can be impossible. Reputation can come from more than simple diminished reliability etc.

Caddy still has light years to go before it is anything like it was in the good old days. The upmarket aspirational image of Buick as seen in the 40s and 50s might never really be seen again - Buick abandoned it and then Lexus took the role.

Having a loyal fan base is also a valuable intangible.

circlew

Agreed...took a long time to fail and will take a loooooooong time to recover...even keeping the Buick brand.

The future cars must be designed like Lemkomobiles or it's curtains for Buick! :shades:

Regards,
OW

Mr_Shiftright

Buick might be discontinued here but made only in China, where it is a very popular car indeed. I think they sell more there than here. They, the Chinese, don't know anything about past or recent Buick history or reputation.

fintail

Chinese perception of Buick seems stuck in about 1940 or so. Not a bad time for Buick.

lemko

Yeah, and some might argue my perception of Buick seems to be stuck in 1940 as well. Regardless, I know from experience, Buick does indeed make an excellent car!

Mr_Shiftright

That was a good time for Buick. The brand seems to have escaped the fate of producing any real clunkers (at least that we remember)--rather, Buick has slipped into a kind of "non-existence" in the American mind, like Oldsmobile. It won't die from incompetence as much as total indifference in the market.

texases

"I must have been really despondent when I said an ES. In my darkest moments,"

Just a few years late-C&D's '96 test had the ES300 second behind the 3er in a test of about 10 cars, so it wasn't crazy back then. Now, though, the G35 and the TL and maybe the GS are the one to look at.

circlew

The TL migh edge out the G but I would need to test that to convince myself. The G is already the best value proposition. I drove an '08 G and it is fantastic. I really like the TL up to '08 so that is the drive I need to take.

The new TL grill nixes any desire for it, however. Who wants to drive a parrot on wheels? :confuse:





Regards,
OW

Mr_Shiftright

oh dear, that is most unfortunate. Some stylist needs to clean that up a bit.

It seems that there is a "sweet spot" for buying luxury cars.

Not so soon in their life span that you pay a punishing price to own them used.

Not too late in their life span that you pay a punishing price to fix them.

andre1969

I never noticed the parrot angle, but I can see it. This is what it makes me think of, though...

fintail

That's a good one.

The rear end is just as bad :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

I hated that movie. It was like the Zimmer of movies, the Clenet of cinema. Noise, brass, chrome, big size, and didn't make sense.

andre1969

It was Grbeck who made me think of the Joker. Back in Feb, when we went to the Philly auto show, there was a new TL behind us, and he said it made him think of the Joker, the way it seemed to have the slashes that extended from the corners of the grille, up under the headlights.

A guy at my job recently bought a 2009 TL, SH-AWD or something like that. He got the one color that I think these cars look semi-good in, a deep, dark metallic blue. I sat in it once. Nice car, but it just doesn't seem like a $40K car to me. In contrast, before that he had an '04 TL and then a slightly newer one when that one got totaled. I think they were around $30K, and for that price, they seemed like a bargain. The new one seems sort of like what Detroit started doing in the 1970's...making the cars bigger, but in a useless sort of way, where you got more bulk without any additional interior room.

hpmctorque

As I see it, the '99-03 TLs were outstanding values and all-around excellent cars, marred only by the problems associated with the introduction of the new 5-speed automatic in the '00 model (the 4-speed automatic in my wife's '99, with 117,000, has been trouble-free). The '04-08 generation was improved in every way. It's quicker and quieter than '99s-'03s, and the steering is sharper. Well, okay, the ride isn't as supple, but Acura softened it just a touch for '06 or '07, giving it an excellent ride-handling compromise. My take on the '04-'08 is that it's as good as a FWD sedan can be. If that TL doesn't satisfy you you need to consider a german luxury brand or an Infiniti. I don't know if the RWD Lexuses cut it.

As for the '09, I agree with you, shifty and andre. It wouldn't be on my shopping list

andre1969

My friend at work had a '99-03 style, as well. Actually, I think it was an '03. I say this because he had an '00 Lincoln LS that was a POS, got traded for an '01 Lincoln LS, and when it hit 50,000 miles he didn't trust it anymore, so he traded for the TL.

I rode in it once or twice, and thought it was a nice car. When that '04 came out though, he just had to get a new one. I know Acuras hold their value pretty well, but I'd still imagine he took a pretty big hit by trading after only one year!

hpmctorque

I apologize for being off-topic, but I'll add to my comments about the TLs by saying that to improve over the '04-'08 generation, Acura should have switched to RWD for '09. If any manufacturer has the ability to wrest the top sport sedan crown from BMW, it's Acura, in my opinion. Why? Acura beats Infiniti in refinement and tops BMW in reliability and cost. For those needing or wanting AWD, SH-AWD could be bases on RWD architecture rathere than FWD.

I was hoping that Honda-Acura would follow Nissan-Infiniti's model of FWD for the family haulers and RWD for the luxury division's products, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen.