Buying Luxury used cars

Mr_Shiftright

Never liked that design....very Japan-esy IMO. Looks like a Camry with a perpetual check engine light. :P

oregonboy

Yeah, the C-pillar looks awkward.

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly. That's the trouble spot all right.

fintail

The C-pillar is the weak spot of the design, indeed. It aged well however, and when new that thing set someone back around 100K.

With the early COMAND system and airmatic, it could try to double that amount in lifetime repairs :shades:

andre1969

I always liked that roofline. It makes me think of a modern, sleeker version of the roofline that the more expensive 1957-59 Chrysler and DeSoto hardtops used.

Sorta like this...

vcheng

... had two classics, a Rolls Royce and a Mercedes 600, go against each other. It was a hilarious segment, with the Rolls failing to break 100 mph, and the last service cost of the Mercedes being 15000 GBP (yes, thats fifteen thousand British Pounds).

Great cars, but the ownership experience would not be very enjoyable unless one had really deep pockets.

jrosasmc

And, as of today, 15,000 GBP equals $21,860 in U.S. dollars. I couldn't imagine one year's worth of running costs for a big 600.

If I wanted an early '70s Mercedes, I would've bought a 240D with a 4-speed and be done with it. I'm sure that would be up Fintail's alley too.

corvette

Like they said on Top Gear, "does that include a new Golf?"

Mr_Shiftright

The Rolls of that era is a stagecoach compared to a Mercedes 600. If I remember correctly, when the 600 came out, Sterling Moss drove one off the showroom floor to some famous race track and actually broke lap records for sedan class--LOL!

If ever the term "resting on its laurels" applied to a car company, it applied to Rolls Royce, which rested for a good 50 years merely on previous reputation.

That's what gorgeous leather and wood can do for you! :P

fintail

I have a co-worker who gets those on ipod and shares them with me (as I am too cheap to pay for the high cable package)....I will have to catch that one. I assume this is an old RR SC or early Shadow vs a M100 600.

Either of those cars can cause havoc for even a relatively well to do person.

fintail

The fun thing on those 600s is that you know the suspension is going to fail...you don't know when or how badly, but it is a guarantee, and it will be painful no matter what. Engine work is also astronomical. Lots of those cars are rough today because of the massive costs, which you don't get back when you re-sell. The conventional cars cost nothing in comparison, and you could buy that pristine old diesel for the cost of minor work on a high end car.

fintail

Maybe it was intentional, it is a design from deep in the days of the DCX merger. That nice 300 would be a better longterm bet, no doubt. The old car carries it off a little better, being more upright. The non parallelity (?) of the rear pillars is somehow distracting on the newer car.

Mr_Shiftright

An old Rolls will beat you up just as badly, if not worse, so you might as well choose the car that can at least run, stop and handle on modern roads.

If you can't pay $1200 for a distributor cap or $8000 for a brake job, then don't go there.

texases

Here's part one of the MB/RR faceoff: Top Gear

jrosasmc

So, fintail, if I wanted to acquire, say, a '76 240D that was in really good condition with decent mileage and very few needs how much do you think that would set me back?

A former middle school teacher I know used to own a '73 220D and a '77 Cadillac Eldorado. I was allowed to drive both on a visit to his place once. Even though the 220 was extremely slow by modern standards, it blew away the much-bigger Cadillac in terms of steering, handling and braking- it was that much better. I thought the Benz was a sports car, compared to that Eldorado. Then again, my '96 Volvo 850 would run rings around both cars.

Mr_Shiftright

Most amusing. Right now you can buy a decent RR Corniche coupe for around $25,000 but a decent 600 will cost you closer to 2X that.

I'm surprised the 600 didn't handle better but then it is a pretty heavy car.

I must prefer the interior of the Rolls however. The 600 is that typically German austere, hard, cold interior.

merckx

Oddly, I think the reverse taper of the c-pillar is the most distinct feature of the previous generation CL. i actually think it quite a handsome car....

i found myelf really falling for the Roller on Top Gear. You don't see the two-door as often,and the cranberry paint was nice....

fintail

That's excellent, thanks. I think I'd take the 600 anyway, it's like a super-sized fintail with 1000x more complexity.

Mr_Shiftright

They drive very "floaty", like a 50s Buick. But quiet and smooth thanks to a GM Hydra-matic!

They incorporate the same basic suspension system as Citroen used. Coupling that to British electrics and quality control, and you see the problem.

fintail

A decent old diesel like that might set you back a few grand, but you shouldn't have to pay more than 5K or so unless you want something really exceptional. A 240D isn't going to be much faster than a 220D, I think...a 300D might be the best for trynig to drive in modern traffic.

Mr_Shiftright

You really want a turbo diesel. The older diesels are pathetic, downright dangerous to drive in 2009 unless you are rural. If you are say in the right lane of a freeway and traffic has stopped and you want to jump into the second lane, you can't do it safely in a 240D or 300D...you're stuck there until nightfall. :P

And long hill climbs on freeways, especially at altitude? Forget it. You'll be down to 35 mph while cars are passing you at 70+. Just not safe anymore!

andre1969

both of those cars look horribly uncomfortable to drive, IMO. The seating position looks slightly inferior to my '85 Silverado, where you sit up high, but not much legroom, and a steering wheel so close that you keep your elbows at your sides.

My guess is that both of these really aren't cars that you're meant to drive, but rather, cars you're meant to be chauffeured around in?

texases

"both of those cars look horribly uncomfortable to drive"
At least they're better than the Bugattie Royale Matchbox I had, put the driver out in the elements! What's with that?

Mr_Shiftright

That was called the "Town Car" body style. The chauffeur, being of a lower class, did not occupy the same interior space as the aristocrat. Some of these types had a little canvas apron the driver could use.

Also this style made the car lighter and easier to build. They didn't have large-sheet stamping processes back then. They couldn't make an entire sedan roof out of one piece of metal. This is why you see wood framework in some late 20s, earlyl 30s sedans.

It was the Budd Company, builders of railroad cars, that taught automakers how to do large-scale stamping and thus we got the "turret top" sedans of the mid to late 30s and along with that, luxury cars with divider windows and a fully enclosed driver's area.

fintail

I noticed that too, both of them seemed to be sitting too far forward. Maybe it had something to do with the camera or the way it was shot...I swear my fintail seems a lot roomier up front than that 600 looked.

corvette

Well, Top Gear is the most-pirated TV show in the world... Not that I would suggest such a thing!

Mr_Shiftright

No you are correct. Seating is very cramped in the 600. The 600 Limo is even worse, ironically, and most tall people cannot even drive it.

Again a certain disdain for the chauffeur seems to be inherent in the design of this type of car.

merckx

Speaking of old luxury cars not being worth much, I saw a really pretty 58(?) Bently S2...The silver paint looked realy nice...It went for the low $20s.......I know it's said that people are rightly afraid of these cars,that almost any repair is hideously expensive...But it sure was a pretty car....The Isetta for $41,000 seemed a bit dear...as amusing as it seemed.....

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah that was probably the S2 "standard steel saloon", from about 1960. This is not a coachwork car, but just a factory "bread and butter" output. I'm surprised it even go into the low $20Ks. That's a lot for such a car. More like $15K should buy you a pretty decent one of these.

As you say, Elephanto Blanco. Those who know don't want one, those who don't know, buy one and then don't want one.

I suppose you could buy it and just sit in it and not drive it. That might be fun. :P

fintail

Reading through a local used car rag, I can see this economy is destroying the residuals in this already weak segment. Examples: 06 E55 - 37K, $35K , 06 M5 - 48K, $39K, 08 STS-V - mileage unknown - $38K. Ouch.

hpmctorque

I think the logical reason for the steep deterioration of residual values on luxury cars in general, and particularly on the highest performance luxury cars, is that in difficult economic times the value assigned to practicality increases versus the premium paid for non essential attributes. This is reflected in the fact that the Accords and Camrys of the world depreciate relatively less than the examples you cited. Also, fewer people are able to or choose to pay for the maintenance required for luxury cars.

The upshot is that it's a great time to be in the market for a luxury car, and an awful time to be selling one.

fintail

I look at those things, and I think "I could afford that" (if I wanted to be careless with my money), but better judgment makes me look away. Others must be feeling likewise....I'll keep my slightly older model going, and save that money for when the local housing market bottoms out, and credit unfreezes (if that's ever going to happen). I think the used high end market is going to get worse, as I believe the economy is not near the bottom yet.

hpmctorque

Judging by the huge losses reported by Citi and BankAmerica this week, I agree that the economy doesn't appear to have bottomed yet. I'll feel more comfortable when our major banks can stand on their own, without government bailouts. Therefore, like you, it wouldn't surprise me if the used high end used car market weakened further.

fintail

I'd hate to be a higher end car dealer right now. I think even the truly wealthy are seeking to keep a lower profile, as they should.

circlew

Yes, I saw the fear on the face of my sales person who found out I had no plans for an bimmer replacement from that dealer. There were many people shopping on the day I returned the car. Saw traffic at Infinity and Audi also. The Chevy Ford and Chrysler dealers were ghost towns on that recent Saturday.

Regards,
OW

fintail

I have to wonder if maybe the bad economy generates more lookie-loos on car lots too, as I am sure window shopping increases in tough times, as a cheap recreational activity.

fintail

Three years old, 26K miles, 2/3rds of MSRP gone....and a long ways yet to fall.

King of the hill for a W220 anyway.

ryan77300d

"No one would restore a W126 either..."- Fintail

I don't know about that one :P

My engine is back in, awaiting a new driveline from the front flex disc-back. That is, of course, after it was rebuilt and I took the engine block off the Bridgeport. It's a long story, suffice it to say that re-boring 32 headbolt holes because they all stripped out is not for those who don't like thier 80's luxo-barges w/aluminum V-8s.

Now to tackle that pesky climate control. I'll post back in another year or two.

fintail

OK, no sane person would restore a W126 :P

I can't even imagine what a OEM quality interior and paint restoration would cost for one...those jobs could suck down a cool 10 grand alone, no doubt.

Did you buy one, BTW?

ryan77300d

I did end up buying one, last February, a 1987 420SEL. Very nice car all around, with minimal rust underneath (although, now that they can be had for literally a dime a dozen, in hind sight, I should have waited). All in all, it was in decent mechanical condition, and I bought it knowing it was leaking oil, (never, EVER for an old MB), but I didn't really trace it back. 2 weeks later, I pulled the engine for what turned out to be the left head gasket and it hasn't been on the road since. "While I'm in there...(cha-ching$$$)"

I'm at the point where everything in the entire engine bay is either brand new or freshly rebuilt. Because those head bolts stripped out, and I worked in a machine shop at the time, I put the bare block on a mill and put some TimeSerts where the old bores were. You'd think all the holes would be @ 90 to the block surface, and not 10 @ 1 degree, 52 minutes . I know more than I ever wanted to know about an M116- and have the parts receipts to prove it .:sick:

Ya try everything once, right? I still like the cars though, and luckily I'm not really into sporty-ness. I'm sure that first drive down the road will make it worth it.

fintail

Yeah, W126s are cheap now, old, expensive to fix, and not efficient. Only for the enthuisast anymore. Mint originals do come up now and then, always a better idea to get one of those than to revive a neglected example.

My fintail has an oil leak...I am hoping it is just the oil pan gasket as I can see seepage coming from there, but I am afraid to look deeper as if it is an expensive fix, I will not be happy. The old car could probably also use a valve adjustment now. It has an M127, which I now know a little about. However, I lack the tools and facilities to do any such work, not to mention the knowledge to do it right.

You are lucky you can do the work yourself and make it a labor of love. The cars really do drive well, and they handle decently enough for something of their bulk and time period. I had a W126. a 300SE with the M103. It was a really nice old car, and I was sad to see it go. I'd gladly own another 126 someday, but I I'd be particular about the car, I want something really pristine and unusual.

NastleVV

Hi ryan

Thanks for the information.

Joseph

fintail

I haven't complained about anything yet today, so I will here

I can't stand it when dealers claim their cars are AMG when they are not...there is nothing AMG on this car, it is just a moderately equipped CLS

On the AMG note, a local highline dealer has a car rare enough to catch my eye - an 06 E55 with every single option. Panorama roof, parktronic, distronic, active seats, H/K, etc...very uncommon to find one with everything. Prices on those are going through the floor too...probably cost around 100K new, now asking 36K (and he won't get it).

lemko

What did that CLS500 in that ad go for when it was new?

Per an '06 E55: over $100K new and only $36K now and unlikely to even get that? Holy depreciation, Batman!

fintail

MSRP on that CLS was probably around 66-67K.

Same dealer has an 06 S430, from the final run of W220 where the AMG "sport" trim was standard. It has no special options I can see, MSRP was probably around 80K. It has 44K miles, he wants 27K for it, and he's had it for at least a month.

W211 is gone after this year, which will kill resale, and E55 is an obsolete model too. Those factors do a lot to hurt MB values.

lemko

Forbes top-ten most expensive luxury cars to repair (over five years)

1. Audi A8: $1,640
1. Mercedes-Benz G Class: $1,640
3. Jaguar XK: $1,629
4. Land Rover Range Rover $1,600
5. Mercedes-Benz CL Class: $1,540
6. BMW 7 Series $1,529
7. Audi Q7: $1,400
8. Land Rover LR2/LR3 $1,360
9. BMW M6: $1,300
9. Porsche Cayman: $1,300

fintail

Is that per year or for the period?

$300-ish per year doesn't sounds too bad.

lemko

I believe it was each year.

texases

From what I could tell from the Forbes site it's a total for the first 5 years, over and above maintenance, but they don't lay out the numbers very clearly. It's part of an analysis of 'most expensive to own', and loan interest and depreciation swamps most everthing else, pushing lots of MBs to the 'front of the class'. No surprise there.

fintail

The higher end models in particular.

I am noticing 07 S550s with average miles in the mid 40s already,...that's less than half price.