was made when Chevy and GM still had it clicking solidly. The '62-'65 Chevy Nova.
Simple, yet effective, thoughtful body styling. I guess GM was hit by a bunch of deaths and/or retirements right about 1969, huh? What came then and after is hardly worth talking about.
They don't have to rebadge ANYTHING. Leave the grand Buick name off those little tin boxes. Heck, the smallest Buick should be the LaCrosse and leave it at that! Putting the Buick name on an Aveo or Cruze is akin to Lexus putting its name on a Scion, Corolla, or Yaris. Please fly me out to Detroit so I can push some knucklehead GM execs off the Renaissance Center. :mad:
Simple, yet effective, thoughtful body styling. I guess GM was hit by a bunch of deaths and/or retirements right about 1969, huh? What came then and after is hardly worth talking about.
Right on the money! My Bro had a 1966 until 2 yrs. ago...popped in a 327 bored to 331 and blueprinted.
Have to say the underpinnings were very prehistoric to say the least, however!
I told you you should be the CEO...it's the only way they will save Buick. Otherwise, just keep Chevy and Caddy and be done with it....unless they want Buick to be "The Third Chevy" division! :sick:
Dewar said Chevrolet now makes up 50 percent of GM's Global sales but is expected to rise to 60 or 65 percent next year as GM winds down its Pontiac, Saturn, Saab and Hummer brands.
Maybe I should just pull a 'Roger Penske' and buy the Buick division and operate it as an independent manufacturer - anything to save my beloved Buick from these mindless, soulless accountants!
I have no brand loyalty. I have had imports & domestics – by any definition. I have had Audis, Lincolns [ would have been just as happy if they had been sold as Fords] , a Fiat, a Mazda, 2 Chevys, etc. [ Currently - quite happily – I drive an “Imported Domestic??” = Pontiac 2009 G8 GT = an “other Chevy” G8?? - whatever . . . ] While I am often tempted by the attributes that premium Import Brands offer [ drove several BMWs & Infinitis & Audis before settling on the G8 GT ] I have typically found that the fundamentals I most appreciate & most value have recently come at substantially less expense from the Domestics. [ The acceleration & handling & ride dynamics, the support & comfort of the driver’s seat, etc.] I do NOT mean to suggest that a BMW 550 doesn’t offer more of some things others find important than a G8 GT does – at roughly half the cost. But: 1 – If anyone one else actually could offer ** EVERYTHING ** that a BMW 550 offers, for half the cost, they’d be doing so. To my knowledge, no one is. 2 – The features & attributes that do set a BMW apart & above the G8 GT are, to me, either irrelevant or not worth the incremental, additional cost. Does ** NOT ** mean they are not worth the $$s to some others. Clearly, based on sales figures, they are!
I was in a new 2010 Audi S4 recently, for another example. Every aspect of the interior – fit, finish, materials, seat adjustability, control feel, etc – was better than my G8. There were interior features not available at any price on the G8. [ A fully integrated GPS Navigation, for a prime example – though the OnStar ‘turn-by-turn’ in the G8 has actually served me quite well for me, the few times I have used it. ]
But: For me, this MSRP $60K+ Audi does not offer $20K-$30K worth of additional ‘goodness’ I’d be willing to pay for – compared to an actual transaction price for a ‘loaded’ G8 GT of $30K-ish.
I have not seen ‘official’ test numbers, but going by Audi claims [ historically, they have been reasonably realistic ] it appears that acceleration for the S4 will be comparable to my G8 GT.
I expect that it will handle well – I was quite intrigued by the several instances [ in promotional material & ‘first drive’ reviews ] of reference to Audi doing a number of things specifically to address the fundamental front end weight bias & typical resulting understeer tendencies. And by the new Audi S tronic 7 speed trans.
The Audi’s nicer interior, I would certainly appreciate.
Nothing else I saw that is better would move my “willing to pay more for it” meter. The ‘base’ S4, with only automatic \ S tronic trans. MSRP is about $48K. And appears unlikely to be available for less than $45 or $46K anytime soon. I recognize that in some respects it is a ‘better’ car – certainly if AWD is a priority, it is a Sport Sedan that merits consideration. Along with the AWD versions of the 335 & 535.
I see much the same situation, when I compare a BMW 3 or 5 to the G8 GT.
No – the G8 GT is not a BMW. No question.
But the better materials, fit & finish [ I immediately concede ] of the BMW 5 interior do not even outweigh the fact that I don’t like much of anything about the interior 5’s – styling, auto trans. shift lever arrangement, etc – you could make every part of the interior out of solid gold & I would not want to drive it. But that’s just me.
So – the BMW is just not worth the additional $$s – TO ME.
When the time comes to investigate the Sport Sedan market again, I will at least look at the entire landscape – GM, Ford, Chrysler, and every Import Brand that sells a competitive product in the US.
It currently looks very UN-likely that that any Domestic Brand will be offering much competition in terms of the dynamic aspects that I look for in a Sport Sedan [ acceleration, balanced handling, steering feel, etc. ] in the next few years – for a price I can justify.
But I have been wrong before! [ Ask my ex-wife. ] - Ray With hope, still, for GM & The Domestics . . .
>Heck, the smallest Buick should be the LaCrosse and leave it at that!
The solid white LaCrosse that an area dealer has looks really nice and very premium. They're doing a good job there. Buick needs to focus on designing their own cars not rebadging.
I agree with your POV. The point you have made regarding the G8 GT proves GM CAN make a value proposition performer....and then they discontinue it!!!!
Exactly! If they would've stuck around, and brought back the Firebird and T/A, I mighta considered one. (Of course they'd have to slim down those fat-arsed A-pillars.)
Lem, they have a compulsive urge to rebadge. If they went down to a single nameplate for some reason, there would STILL be multiple cars with different names but esentially identical! :shades:
Why shouldn't Buick offer a version of the Cruze? They could call it a Skylark and make it a premium alternative - however, and in this I agree with many of the posters above - it should not be a simple rebadging. It should have its own distinctive style ... a smaller LaCrosse, for example, with premium materials and design. A Buick for someone that doesn't want a rolling mattress with 2 tons of weight to drag around. Perhaps they might be able to attract a younger (dare I say, lemko-like?) demographic.
Heck, if I could get a premium small car that had style and features and got over 35 MPG on the highway, I might be interested. Can you say Mini? Lots of people drop $25-30K on these. Why not GM?
Where I think the problem lies is with Chevy being asked to go too far upscale. With only 3 car brands - Ieaving GMC out of the picture for the moment - there might be enough room for Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac to carve out its own niche.
Chevy remains the value proposition .. lots of car for the money. With the exception of the Camaro and Corvette (and trucks and SUVs, which are outside the scope of my comments), nothing over about $27K, which is about the price of a loaded Malibu.
Buick takes the middle ground. Solid, upmarket cars that start in the low 20's and top out around $40K or so. For $25K, you could get a fairly loaded Malibu or a premium, but smaller, Buick.
Why, you ask? Simple .. CAFE regulations. Unless I've missed something, the manufacturers are still being required to improve their average fuel economy over the next 5-10 years. So, having a smaller and more fuel efficient Buick helps the new GM achieve this goal.
Cadillac stays high end .. the CTS starts around $35K or so and the products go north from there. Compete with Lexus, BMW, MB, etc.
Ultimately, there is some overlap of price points, but not of product, which is what made GM so popular back in the day.
THEN: Chevrolet -> Pontiac -> Oldsmobile -> Buick -> Cadillac
A Buick for someone that doesn't want a rolling mattress with 2 tons of weight to drag around. Perhaps they might be able to attract a younger (dare I say, lemko-like?) demographic.
Unfortunately, you have to deal with a certain fact:
Buick, proper noun. 1. A rolling mattress with 2 tons of weight to drag around. 2. A popular vehicle in China. 3. A rolling sofa with 2 tons of weight to drag around. 4.
Holden group of GM can make a performer; then GMNA can make a rebadge and like you said discontinue it. But think about it, GM has done this quite a bit in recent history, having a decent vehicle that people wanted then dumping it such as G8, Fiero GT, Impala SS (the real one, not that FWD rebadged Lumina)...
Or keeping a vehicle instead of cutting it, such as Citation, Cavalier, Grand Am, Dust-Buster minivans, Celebrity, anything with an Iron Duke 4 cyl...
Or resurrecting a great name and putting it on something that disgraces the name, like Lemans, Nova, Malibu, Impala, Monte Carlo...
:sick:
I hope this "new" GM doesn't rebadge an Aveo into a Buick. I had one last week for a rental when I was in Texas and Mexico and it wasn't anything to brag about. Had a nice steering wheel and radio, but that's about it.
GM could have sold a lot more of the Holden Colorado Diesel PU trucks if they had brought them over. GM is clueless as to what the need to do to satisfy the myriad of forces they are up against in the USA. They would be ahead financially to close the doors and tell the US to buzz off. There is money to be made. Just not in the USA. With all the crazy political entities destroying our industrial base.
Toyota made a good move dumping their interest in NUMMI.
It's even more baffling as the consumers in Australia are almost identical to the buyers in the U.S. in terms of likes and desires. They need to stop trying to bring over "Euro" designs and beat the Japanese and just do what they do in Australia.
It's even more baffling as the consumers in Australia are almost identical to the buyers in the U.S. in terms of likes and desires. They need to stop trying to bring over "Euro" designs and beat the Japanese and just do what they do in Australia.
Nope, not so much. In AU, they are big into large, rear wheel drive vehicles. Lemme see, what mainstream manufacturer has a large RWD platform...the Crown Vic? Be serious. Charger? Maybe.
They also have very different speed laws, photo radar, and various other maladies over there, or under there as the case may be. Feature preferences are different, equipment needs are different, styling desires are different (they have El Camino type vehicles, and "Utes" over there) and the customer base, socio-economic stuff and how people use vehicles is different.
The "just like me" phenomenon is getting carried away here.
I kinda agree with engineerboy. The aussies are really into big RWD sedans, cars such as Commodore really rule the streets there. Though unlike Americans, they're pretty much into wagons as well.
Australia is the closest you can get to Texas without going there :shades:
Heck, there were private import firms during the leviathan days of American luxury who did good business in importing and converting US-market land yachts (60s-80s Caddys and Lincolns etc) into Oz.
The utes are a regional anomaly though, yeah. They also embraced Japanese cars long before NA.
Nice car! In a sea of boats and canoes that came from that era, these smaller cars are more to my liking. Although a late 60's Goat, Charger or Malibu would be on my list as well.
If it was me, I would be DEMANDING reproductions of these immediately! These meant something to a whole lot of folks...and seeing the last many post, particularly here.
SHANGHAI (Reuters) - General Motors said on Sunday it has agreed to set up a light commercial vehicle production venture with major Chinese automaker FAW Group, with total investment of 2 billion yuan ($293 million).
The 50-50 joint venture, based in the northeast China city of Changchun in Jilin province, will make light-duty trucks and vans, GM said in a statement.
"For us in China, this is an important complement to the rest of our portfolio," Kevin Wale, president and managing director for GM's China operations, told reporters in a conference call.
"We are well established in passenger vehicles and mini commercial vehicles and we haven't had a presence in the truck segment. Adding a truck portfolio rounds that out."
The venture will use two existing FAW plants in Changchun and the city of Harbin, also in the northeast, with combined annual capacity of roughly 90,000 vehicles, Wale said.
Notice how back then, GM was a pro at producing different versions of the same car and finding a way to make them not look like clones? That '66-67 GTO and '66 Chevelle are the same car, but it's not blatantly obvious to look at the two.
No kidding huh? This is just another step in Government Motors progress to stray from it's "Buy American" mantra. Question is, how will its fans react? They tend to be import haters so does this mean they'll have the same resentment for foriegn GM vehicles?
My guess is "no" since they have no problem defending Mexican or Canadian made already.
Thanks, the good memory comes with being a hardcore car enthusiast. Plus working in automotive all these years you soak up so much info. It's just sad that the powers-that-be / were at GM lost their way to the almighty profit per quarter philosophy and design by cheapness.
I'm just not a fan of rebadging, what I call nameplate engineering, where a product is crummy and someone thinks by renaming it to something that had past glory will make the crummy product great. The whole lipstick on a pig concept.
Oh, and love the pic of the Caddy in the burnout box - Back then you arrived; nowadays you just get there.
Are you surprised?? The rest of their portfolio? I'll wager we'll need to pump more money into them within 2 years despite shedding all of the " BAD GM" assets.
At my Dad's Stationary Luncheonette out in Plainview, L.I. I remember the '69 Caddy could lay a stretch 50 ft. with the non-posi rear axle. We measured it after one of the customer's kids borrowed their Dad's car. That WAS a car.
Ah, the good o'ole days when we spent weekends at N.Y. National Speedway out at the end of the L.I.E.
Love that Caddy in the burnout box too. That's a 1969 model powered by a 472 cid V-8 - my favorite car of all time. A former girlfriend had a drop-dead gorgeous mint-condition white 1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. I would love to have a car like that today!
Too bad you can't blow that picture up a bit. It would make a great "Mystery Car Pics" entry. I can spot a red 1967 Pontiac next to a teal blue or green 1968 Pontiac, then a black 1968 Plymouth GTX or Roadrunner, Dodge van, and a red 1965 or 1966 Mustang between the two VW Bugs in the front row.
Wow, you're unbelievable! Thanks for the feedback on the past best experience in USA Musclecar that I can remember. 1969 - 1970 can NEVER be replicated. Period, The End, AMEN.
Yeah, it's just something about seeing a Caddy, or a Buick Electra 225 aka Deuce & a Quarter or an Olds 98 for that matter, laying a patch that cracks me up. The BOPC torque-monsters!!
Pops had a 59 Eldo that my great-aunt gave him, yes GAVE him back in the mid-70s. I was just born so don't remember but was told it was baby blue, had every option, and she bought it brand new!! It's long gone and he cries every time he sees one.
What helps me with "past car syndrome" are the old skools I have in my stable and the hope I can continue to have & buy them at affordable prices and not have Barrett-Jackson & the rest keep me out the market.
It's fairly funny that the division GM is cutting had it's best sales increase in Aug! Buick and Cadillac not so good. I think Buick and cadillac not having any high mpg vehicles for C4C is indicative of what the market is going to be like.
Funny you should mention that. I saw an odd yellow car that looked like an Aveo but wasn't. Then, I realized it was a G3 when I saw the Pontiac arrowhead on it.
Comments
Simple, yet effective, thoughtful body styling. I guess GM was hit by a bunch of deaths and/or retirements right about 1969, huh? What came then and after is hardly worth talking about.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
What do you expect? They don't have Pontiac anymore, so they have to rebadge SOMETHING.
Right on the money! My Bro had a 1966 until 2 yrs. ago...popped in a 327 bored to 331 and blueprinted.
Have to say the underpinnings were very prehistoric to say the least, however!
Regards,
OW
Dewar said Chevrolet now makes up 50 percent of GM's Global sales but is expected to rise to 60 or 65 percent next year as GM winds down its Pontiac, Saturn, Saab and Hummer brands.
GM is projecting U.S. sales of 10.5 million vehicles for 2009 and 12.5 million in 2010 as consumer confidence improves
Regards,
OW
I have had imports & domestics –
by any definition.
I have had Audis, Lincolns [ would have been just as happy
if they had been sold as Fords] ,
a Fiat, a Mazda, 2 Chevys, etc.
[ Currently - quite happily – I drive an
“Imported Domestic??” = Pontiac 2009 G8 GT
= an “other Chevy” G8?? - whatever . . . ]
While I am often tempted by the attributes that premium Import Brands offer [ drove several BMWs & Infinitis & Audis before settling on the G8 GT ] I have typically found that the fundamentals I most appreciate & most value have recently come at substantially less expense from the Domestics.
[ The acceleration & handling & ride dynamics, the support & comfort of the driver’s seat, etc.]
I do NOT mean to suggest that a BMW 550 doesn’t offer more of some things others find important than a G8 GT does – at roughly half the cost. But:
1 – If anyone one else actually could offer ** EVERYTHING ** that a BMW 550 offers, for half the cost, they’d be doing so. To my knowledge, no one is.
2 – The features & attributes that do set a BMW apart & above the G8 GT are, to me, either irrelevant or not worth the incremental, additional cost.
Does ** NOT ** mean they are not worth the $$s to some others.
Clearly, based on sales figures, they are!
I was in a new 2010 Audi S4 recently, for another example. Every aspect of the interior – fit, finish, materials, seat adjustability, control feel, etc – was better than my G8. There were interior features not available at any price on the G8. [ A fully integrated GPS Navigation, for a prime example – though the OnStar ‘turn-by-turn’ in the G8 has actually served me quite well for me, the few times I have used it. ]
But:
For me, this MSRP $60K+ Audi does not offer $20K-$30K worth of additional ‘goodness’ I’d be willing to pay for – compared to an actual transaction price for a ‘loaded’ G8 GT of $30K-ish.
I have not seen ‘official’ test numbers, but going by Audi claims [ historically, they have been reasonably realistic ] it appears that acceleration for the S4 will be comparable to my G8 GT.
I expect that it will handle well – I was quite intrigued by the several instances [ in promotional material & ‘first drive’ reviews ] of reference to Audi doing a number of things specifically to address the fundamental front end weight bias & typical resulting understeer tendencies. And by the new Audi S tronic 7 speed trans.
The Audi’s nicer interior, I would certainly appreciate.
Nothing else I saw that is better would move my “willing to pay more for it” meter. The ‘base’ S4, with only automatic \ S tronic trans. MSRP is about $48K. And appears unlikely to be available for less than $45 or $46K anytime soon. I recognize that in some respects it is a ‘better’ car – certainly if AWD is a priority, it is a Sport Sedan that merits consideration. Along with the AWD versions of the 335 & 535.
I see much the same situation, when I compare a BMW 3 or 5 to the G8 GT.
No – the G8 GT is not a BMW.
No question.
But the better materials, fit & finish [ I immediately concede ] of the BMW 5 interior do not even outweigh the fact that I don’t like much of anything about the interior 5’s – styling, auto trans. shift lever arrangement, etc – you could make every part of the interior out of solid gold & I would not want to drive it. But that’s just me.
So – the BMW is just not worth the additional $$s – TO ME.
When the time comes to investigate the Sport Sedan market again, I will at least look at the entire landscape – GM, Ford, Chrysler, and every Import Brand that sells a competitive product in the US.
It currently looks very UN-likely that that any Domestic Brand will be offering much competition in terms of the dynamic aspects that I look for in a Sport Sedan [ acceleration, balanced handling, steering feel, etc. ] in the next few years – for a price I can justify.
But I have been wrong before!
[ Ask my ex-wife. ]
- Ray
With hope, still, for GM & The Domestics . . .
The solid white LaCrosse that an area dealer has looks really nice and very premium. They're doing a good job there. Buick needs to focus on designing their own cars not rebadging.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's what I'm talking about. :confuse:
Regards,
OW
Exactly! If they would've stuck around, and brought back the Firebird and T/A, I mighta considered one. (Of course they'd have to slim down those fat-arsed A-pillars.)
Why shouldn't Buick offer a version of the Cruze? They could call it a Skylark and make it a premium alternative - however, and in this I agree with many of the posters above - it should not be a simple rebadging. It should have its own distinctive style ... a smaller LaCrosse, for example, with premium materials and design. A Buick for someone that doesn't want a rolling mattress with 2 tons of weight to drag around. Perhaps they might be able to attract a younger (dare I say, lemko-like?) demographic.
Heck, if I could get a premium small car that had style and features and got over 35 MPG on the highway, I might be interested. Can you say Mini? Lots of people drop $25-30K on these. Why not GM?
Where I think the problem lies is with Chevy being asked to go too far upscale. With only 3 car brands - Ieaving GMC out of the picture for the moment - there might be enough room for Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac to carve out its own niche.
Chevy remains the value proposition .. lots of car for the money. With the exception of the Camaro and Corvette (and trucks and SUVs, which are outside the scope of my comments), nothing over about $27K, which is about the price of a loaded Malibu.
Buick takes the middle ground. Solid, upmarket cars that start in the low 20's and top out around $40K or so. For $25K, you could get a fairly loaded Malibu or a premium, but smaller, Buick.
Why, you ask? Simple .. CAFE regulations. Unless I've missed something, the manufacturers are still being required to improve their average fuel economy over the next 5-10 years. So, having a smaller and more fuel efficient Buick helps the new GM achieve this goal.
Cadillac stays high end .. the CTS starts around $35K or so and the products go north from there. Compete with Lexus, BMW, MB, etc.
Ultimately, there is some overlap of price points, but not of product, which is what made GM so popular back in the day.
THEN:
Chevrolet -> Pontiac -> Oldsmobile -> Buick -> Cadillac
NOW:
Chevrolet -> Buick -> Cadillac
Unfortunately, you have to deal with a certain fact:
Buick, proper noun. 1. A rolling mattress with 2 tons of weight to drag around. 2. A popular vehicle in China. 3. A rolling sofa with 2 tons of weight to drag around. 4.
Or keeping a vehicle instead of cutting it, such as Citation, Cavalier, Grand Am, Dust-Buster minivans, Celebrity, anything with an Iron Duke 4 cyl...
Or resurrecting a great name and putting it on something that disgraces the name, like Lemans, Nova, Malibu, Impala, Monte Carlo...
:sick:
I hope this "new" GM doesn't rebadge an Aveo into a Buick. I had one last week for a rental when I was in Texas and Mexico and it wasn't anything to brag about. Had a nice steering wheel and radio, but that's about it.
Resurrect the names that stood for something, like Camaro. But make sure they beat all competition. Easy to ask hard to do, I'm afraid.
At the end of the day, we can all have fond memories of the TRUE GM that is gone forever.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
They just stopped importing it is all. Real shame as well, since the G8 was probably the best GM car made to date other than the CTS.
Toyota made a good move dumping their interest in NUMMI.
http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Colorado
Shhhush! You'll give away the secret!
Regards,
OW
Nope, not so much. In AU, they are big into large, rear wheel drive vehicles. Lemme see, what mainstream manufacturer has a large RWD platform...the Crown Vic? Be serious. Charger? Maybe.
They also have very different speed laws, photo radar, and various other maladies over there, or under there as the case may be. Feature preferences are different, equipment needs are different, styling desires are different (they have El Camino type vehicles, and "Utes" over there) and the customer base, socio-economic stuff and how people use vehicles is different.
The "just like me" phenomenon is getting carried away here.
Heck, there were private import firms during the leviathan days of American luxury who did good business in importing and converting US-market land yachts (60s-80s Caddys and Lincolns etc) into Oz.
The utes are a regional anomaly though, yeah. They also embraced Japanese cars long before NA.
Right.
- RWD
- V6 or V8
- Midsize or large.
Those work, The rest nobody seems to want to buy. I don't think it is a coincidence.
Um, for what time frame does the above number refer to?
A bit of searching on the internet tells me that the total sales volume in Australia is around 1M vehicles annually:
June a good month for automobile sales in Australia
If it was me, I would be DEMANDING reproductions of these immediately! These meant something to a whole lot of folks...and seeing the last many post, particularly here.
Regards,
OW
My apologies.
Though the link in my post still shows that the OZ market is around 1M vehicles annually.
The 50-50 joint venture, based in the northeast China city of Changchun in Jilin province, will make light-duty trucks and vans, GM said in a statement.
"For us in China, this is an important complement to the rest of our portfolio," Kevin Wale, president and managing director for GM's China operations, told reporters in a conference call.
"We are well established in passenger vehicles and mini commercial vehicles and we haven't had a presence in the truck segment. Adding a truck portfolio rounds that out."
The venture will use two existing FAW plants in Changchun and the city of Harbin, also in the northeast, with combined annual capacity of roughly 90,000 vehicles, Wale said.
My guess is "no" since they have no problem defending Mexican or Canadian made already.
I'm just not a fan of rebadging, what I call nameplate engineering, where a product is crummy and someone thinks by renaming it to something that had past glory will make the crummy product great. The whole lipstick on a pig concept.
Oh, and love the pic of the Caddy in the burnout box -
Regards,
OW
At my Dad's Stationary Luncheonette out in Plainview, L.I. I remember the '69 Caddy could lay a stretch 50 ft. with the non-posi rear axle. We measured it after one of the customer's kids borrowed their Dad's car. That WAS a car.
Ah, the good o'ole days when we spent weekends at N.Y. National Speedway out at the end of the L.I.E.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Pops had a 59 Eldo that my great-aunt gave him, yes GAVE him back in the mid-70s. I was just born so don't remember but was told it was baby blue, had every option, and she bought it brand new!! It's long gone and he cries every time he sees one.
What helps me with "past car syndrome" are the old skools I have in my stable and the hope I can continue to have & buy them at affordable prices and not have Barrett-Jackson & the rest keep me out the market.
Sorry for the side track.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/general-motors-us-august-sales-drop-202-2009-09- -01
Oh note that the Japanese companies did fairly well last month. I'm not happy about that, just noting that GM's problem is worse than others.