I dunno, it wouldn't take much at all to make me consider a Ford. Basically, if the Fiesta was out now I'd be driving that instead of an Elantra Touring.
I'd steer clear of Honda and Toyota though...too much hype, too much name recognition, not enough bang for the buck. Nissan and Hyundai are different stories.
Pretty much I just shop Ford, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia these days. I'd shop Mazda but they have pretty much the same lineup they did 5 years ago. Same suspension too *grabs kidneys in remembered agony*
The '08 CR-V I've been driving for the last 13K miles has been absolutely flawless
Hopefully it doesn't get the differential, tranny or A/C problems that seem to be inflicting Honda's as they age. I like driving Honda's, but have become wary of them after all of these expensive issues people are posting. They seem to be getting D3 in quality and customer attitude?
...than buy any foreign make. Keep buying those foreign cars and you're more likely to have a gun pointed at you as the unemployed become more and more desperate.
I'm glad your CRV has been working well for you, but seriously, NO car should have any issues within the first 13,000 miles! Well, except maybe a 1995 Neon. :P
I just checked my 2000 Intrepid's service records, and the first incident that came up that I'd consider breakage, rather than a maintenance issue, didn't happen until 35,000 miles. The power lock actuator in the driver's door had to be replaced, under warranty. And at 51,000 miles I had to have the thermostat housing replaced, to the tune of $210. But other than that, it was just maintenance/wear&tear type stuff.
Now around 75,000 miles I stripped the head on the oil drain plug and the mechanic had to drill it out. That was about $55. But I'd consider that my fault, not the car's. And at 88,000 miles, the oil pressure light came on, but that was fixed under a TSB, and turned out to be a problem with the sensor, and not a real oil pressure problem. New rotors at 98,000 miles, and that's about it for unscheduled repairs over the first 100,000 miles.
So, it wasn't perfect, but I'd say overall it was still a pretty good car. I don't think I'd be afraid to buy another Chrysler product. Or a GM or Ford.
No fear of Mopar here! My brother is STILL driving my 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue after all these years. Heck, my 1989 Cadillac didn't have any real issues until 20 years and 157K+ miles later when the alternator finally gave up the ghost. Other than that, the car has been darn near perfect.
From my experience - I'd buy GM first, Chrysler second, and Ford as a last-ditch effort. All others aren't even on my map.
I'm afraid we have been buying all things foreign too long to get in a tizzy over a few cars. We should have done something about it in the 1950s when we gave our electronics industry to Japan to be the manufacturers. Whether you lost a job building TVs or Cars is still a job lost. The barn door was left open too long. Think Chinese Buick in your garage. :shades:
Remember back in early July when GM's logo was rumored to be changing to green (for the Volt, etc.)? Then Fezo said it really should be red to go along with all the ink ... anyway, here's your chance to design your own version:
NO car should have any issues within the first 13,000 miles! Well, except maybe a 1995 Neon.
I don't have to bring up my wife's 2003 Denali problems again, now, do I?? Almost became a LEMON candidate at 30K+ miles in addition to the other parts failing, all within 50K of ownership. More like a Volkswagen then a GMC product!!
Anyway, at $22,500 for the CR-V, I'm beating anything comparable the "Little 3" have to offer these days with respect to the total value proposition on 4 wheels in that category of vehicle. I expect major parts to last into the 200K range as I maintain them as required.
I'll shop GM in 4 years....if they pay me back by then. :P Ford, maybe. C??? NEVER!
Don't you get a little uneasy buying from a failed company that your tax dollars have been handed to and seems like "business as usual' is the current reality?
From my experience, I'd buy from the company that makes the best products for the money....that ain't USA for cars anymore...
I don't have to bring up my wife's 2003 Denali problems again, now, do I?? Almost became a LEMON candidate at 30K+ miles in addition to the other parts failing, all within 50K of ownership. More like a Volkswagen then a GMC product!!
Ahh yes, what fond memories...didn't the power steering on that thing fail, leaving your wife stranded in an intersection or something like that. Truthfully, if I'd had an experience like that, I don't think I'd be shopping that particular brand again, either!
I hope you continue to have good luck with your CRV. I've only known two people that have had crap Hondas, and that was awhile back. One was a 1980 Accord that, by 1988 was on its second engine and transmission, and was a rustbucket. When that second tranny went, my friend dumped it. Now it was also a used car when he got it, but still. I've always said that if GM could have made EVERY car as good as my 1980 Malibu was back then, and if Honda had made EVERY car as bad as my friend's Accord was, then GM wouldn't be in the predicament they're in today! And in retrospect, that Malibu wasn't that great of a car...but for the time it was pretty good.
The other was a 1994 Civic that blew two head gaskets and needed a/c work. I had actually recommended the Civic to my friends, which is why I think it let them down! They traded it with around 80-90K miles on it, when head gasket #2 blew, and got a Saturn S-series. They also had a Ford Windstall around that time. Last time I saw them though, they had a Toyota Corolla and a Kia Sorrento.
But, then I knew someone with a 1992 Civic who abused the hell out of it, and got around 175-180,000 miles out of it, so sometimes it's a crap shoot I think, whether you get a good car or a lemon.
I don't have to bring up my wife's 2003 Denali problems again, now, do I?? Almost became a LEMON candidate at 30K+ miles in addition to the other parts failing, all within 50K of ownership. More like a Volkswagen then a GMC product!!
Hey, my parent's '87 Jetta takes offense to that statement!
The Jetta was rock solid and pretty peppy and a good handler for its time. It also got to 100K miles before becoming hopelessly Chrysler like in needing repairs every 2 to 3 months (expensive ones). Sure, it had some electrical gremlins before 100K miles, and the clutches got worn out rather quickly, but it did have 3 drivers, my parents, and my older brother used it as his first car, so I'm sure it took a beating and was abused by him thoroughly. I remember thinking 100,000 miles wasn't bad to give up on it... I think it died and needed a tow at like 101,000 miles. My dad got rid of it immediately thereafter since it was becoming a money pit.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The other was a 1994 Civic that blew two head gaskets and needed a/c work. I had actually recommended the Civic to my friends, which is why I think it let them down! They traded it with around 80-90K miles on it, when head gasket #2 blew, and got a Saturn S-series
I don't think it's a crap shoot, but more like having pocket aces against someone with 2,7 offsuit. The Honda is the pocket aces, and the Chrysler woudl be the 2 7 off suit. Case in point, your friends were able to trade in that terrible Civic and AFFORD a Saturn S series thanks to great resale value which is thanks to an incredible history of dependability and "live forever" reputation.
With my Neon that had the same head gasket and AC issues as well, I couldn't trade it in for a Huffy bicycle, let alone another vehicle. At least wth Honda you can abandon a lemon without losing your shirt, your house, your dog, and your firstborn.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Good memory! The PS unit blew and she was stranded...On-Star was too slow for a tow so the Police had it towed to our home BPGMC dealer while her and the kids got a ride in the back of the cruiser to the nearby shopping center...they felt like they were arrested for driving a P.O.S. GMC!!!
Thanks for the well wishes for the Honda. So far so good, as I'm driving it until my eldest daughter is of driving age in 2 years!! She gets her LP in October! :sick:
From my experience, I do buy the best products for my money - the cars from the Buick and Cadillac Divisions of General Motors. I feel uneasy when I buy from anyone else.
...than buy any foreign make. Keep buying those foreign cars and you're more likely to have a gun pointed at you as the unemployed become more and more desperate.
I think the Chinese making Buicks and the Koreans bolting together "Chevys" would be more amused by that statement than the folks building Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, Mercedes and BMWs here in the US.
Too narrow minded for my tastes....many more outstanding values out there to be stuck on those 2 Divisions.
That said, I respect your loyalty. I only hope that the NEW GM appreciates you and your kind of buyer to reward them with truly world class vehicles. If you are happy, that's all that counts in my book.
There are hints of capability in Buick and Caddy but there is a lot of old baggage apparent as well. The problem in the past was that the Finance direction ruined them. It's time for Design, Quality and Engineering to control the business above the Financial piece. That's the secret they continue to avoid.
Why??
Those functions can add and subtract...no need for a Calculator Mentality to destroy the main goal of a corporation. Give them the goal an let them run with it. Accounting should be only a nascent piece if success is the true goal.
Agreed. Excellent point. The Automotive World is just that. Global.
There is no mistaking the fact the EVERYONE that wants to make great products has a say in the global economic story. You can keep your head in the sand of the US beaches but if you really want to succeed, just be brilliant....as a team...not just the Suits.
That's what got us here in the first place...the desire to deliver. Period, the END.
The biggest industry beneficiaries were Japanese automakers Toyota, Honda and Nissan, which accounted for 41 percent of the new vehicle sales. That outpaced Detroit automakers General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, which had a share of nearly 39 percent. Toyota Motor Corp. led the industry with 19.4 percent of new sales, followed by General Motors Co. with 17.6 percent and Ford Motor Co. with 14.4 percent.
The Toyota Corolla was the most popular new vehicle purchased under the program. The Honda Civic, Toyota Camry and Ford Focus held the next three top spots. All four are built in the United States.
Any questions?
I have one...this is directed to Jeffrey Anwyl, CEO of Edmunds...Do you really think buyers are that interested in gas guzzlers to support raising gas taxes to urge the consuming market to buy efficient vehicles?
I felt your pain with my 2000 Suburban. Complete junk from build quality to reliability and quality of materials. I spent around $6k on repairs between 47k to roughly 70k. And with every repair the service shop said they see these problems all of the time. No thanks. I don't plan to buy a Government Motors vehicle anytime soon, though I never say never.
Still waiting for my wife to get her replacement for her 07 Grand Prix. Another GM beauty. Anyone who'd buy a GP with their own money hopefully got it dirt cheap because that's how it looks, feels, and drives. It's hell on wheels.
Anyway regarding Honda, I know lots of people who own them and they all love them. I only know one person that has had a major issue at low miles and Honda bought it back and replaced it ASAP. It had a block casting issue that caused an oil leak. The block needed to be replaced, so to make my friend happy, they gave him a brand new van (his was only a few weeks old). My dad has an 09 Accord EX-L v6. He already has close to 15k on it and it is amazingly refined and IMO is much nicer than anything the domestics have at the same price point (styling aside).
My aunt and Uncle have had 3 CRVs in a row since they were first introduced and they have not had a single problem with any of them. IMO Honda's are among the class leaders with their lineup except for the Ridgeline which IMO is completely undesirable.
Thanks D1 for your feedback. I would have bought another GM but for the Denali Disaster sitting ion my garage.
The CR-V feels so rock solid, I'm sure it will be one of the best reliable rides I have ever owned. The 330xi was also solid for the 3 years I leased it. Had I know ahead of time of the reliability it gave me, it would still be in the garage today because I would have bought it.
The CRV's do feel rock solid, a friend of mine has an 07 with over 60k on it and it still feels brand new. His wife loves it and they could comfortably pay cash for a GL Benz yet they are 100% satisfied with the CRV. I've driven in new Pilot's and MDX's too and they are all (particularly the MDX) extremely solid and great driving vehicles. My BIL has had 2 Pilots and he now drives an MDX and he hasn't had a single issue with any of them. I've never been big on cross-overs, but the MDX is one impressive vehicle.
The biggest industry beneficiaries were Japanese automakers Toyota, Honda and Nissan, which accounted for 41 percent of the new vehicle sales. That outpaced Detroit automakers General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, which had a share of nearly 39 percent. Toyota Motor Corp. led the industry with 19.4 percent of new sales, followed by General Motors Co. with 17.6 percent and Ford Motor Co. with 14.4 percent.
The Toyota Corolla was the most popular new vehicle purchased under the program. The Honda Civic, Toyota Camry and Ford Focus held the next three top spots. All four are built in the United States.
Further proof that Cash for Clunkers is fueling sales of small cars comes today by way of Ford. The Blue Oval is reportedly cranking up production of the Focus compact in order to satisfy demand. Shortly after the government’s scrappage plan was launched, news came that the Ford Focus was the top-selling nameplate on Cash for Clunkers trade-ins, though it was subsequently replaced by the Toyota Corolla and Ford’s own Escape.
No matter what vehicle is benefiting the most from C4C, we’re sure the hard hit auto workers at the Wayne Assembly plant will appreciate the overtime, which will run from now through the end of September and will result in an additional 6,400 Focuses rolling down the line. For those interested in the numbers, Ford reported a 44-percent increase in Focus sales in July over the previous month.
I think the Focus used to be built in Mexico but is now built in the US. I remember reading some story about when the SVT Focus came out and those were made in Mexico.
So, what "Chinese Buick" is sold here???? My new Lacrosse was built in Fairfax, Kansas. Buick also EXPORTS the Enclave, built in Delta Township Mi. to China, and the new Cruze based "Baby Buick" is rumored to be exported there as well.
IIRC, the WTO ruled AGAINST China for forcing foreign companies to align themselves with Chinese companies if they want to do business there.
".....Still waiting for my wife to get her replacement for her 07 Grand Prix. Another GM beauty. Anyone who'd buy a GP with their own money hopefully got it dirt cheap because that's how it looks, feels, and drives. It's hell on wheels"
You know, I've been waiting to take you to task on the GP, as my SIL bought an '06 used several months ago. It has 45K miles on it, equipped like a rental car would be. A nice looking car, and I'm sure it will be as reliable as my old Park Ave is.
Then I went for a ride in it........ :surprise:
THAT BACK SEAT -- SEAT BACK IS LIKE A ROCK! The cloth is bare bones cloth, coarse!!! It's LOUD, and when riding on a coarser grade of pavement, it sounded as if someone fired up a bullet heater in it!!!
I see why you are less than thrilled to take a ride in it. Too bad they didn't give her a GP GXP, and I'm sure it would be a better version. But that car is plain BS!!!
THAT BACK SEAT -- SEAT BACK IS LIKE A ROCK! The cloth is bare bones cloth, coarse!!! It's LOUD, and when riding on a coarser grade of pavement, it sounded as if someone fired up a bullet heater in it!!!
I see why you are less than thrilled to take a ride in it. Too bad they didn't give her a GP GXP, and I'm sure it would be a better version. But that car is plain BS!!!
Yes it is bad. Mind boggling to me that as of 07 GM still built something that bad. You should drive it in the rain, when it hits puddles it sounds like a pressure washer is spraying 3000psi+ into the fender wells. No sound insulation at all.
Hopefully she'll be getting something else by the end of the year. Normally she gets to choose among 3-4 models, but we were relocated her two years ago and the car was ordered for her. Oh well.
Yes, I had a 1997 GXP GP. Nice enough but dumped it at 6yrs/77K miles as it began to fall apart. Pontiacs are not alive past 100K. Talk about clunkers after 7 years!
If you're looking for a replacement, just get a CTS. Even the previous generation one was far superior to the Grand Prix in every possible way that I can think of.
I'd steer clear of Honda and Toyota though...too much hype, too much name recognition, not enough bang for the buck. Nissan and Hyundai are different stories.
Pretty much I just shop Ford, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia these days. I'd shop Mazda but they have pretty much the same lineup they did 5 years ago. Same suspension too *grabs kidneys in remembered agony*
Only I would add my current rig's maker Mitsubishi to that list and call it sound as a pound. The only thing close to a flaw in my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS has been a recall to add a rear door "sash", an extra clip that holds the rear door closed during "certain crash impact angles." OK fine. Took about an hour at the dealer one day during a routine earl change.
I think I love my Lancer GTS more now than on March 21, 2007, the day I purchased the car at Avondale Mitsubishi, 9 miles west of Phoenix.
Yes, I had a 1997 GXP GP. Nice enough but dumped it at 6yrs/77K miles as it began to fall apart. Pontiacs are not alive past 100K. Talk about clunkers after 7 years!
Hey now...I had a 1969 Bonneville that had 108,000 miles on it. It belonged to my cousin before me and as abusive as he is on cars he should be banned from owning them. Oh, and it got struck by lightning. :P
When I got my '67 Catalina, the salesguy tried to tell me it only had 45,000 miles on it, but it had a freshly rebuilt engine and tranny, and had just been repainted. Gas and brake pedals had also been replaced (found the old ones in the trunk), and the vinyl on the front seat where the driver's butt would go had been replaced and slightly mis-matched. So I bought the car, knowing full well that it was most likely 145,000 miles.
And, while it only has around 79K miles on it, my '76 Grand LeMans is still running after 33 years!
So maybe Pontiac is one of those instances where "They don't build 'em like they used to" really rings true?
I'm kinda sad to hear your '97 Grand Prix was crap after 7 years. I really liked the style of the 1997-03 Grand Prix, although that swoopy body really cut down on interior room, mainly in the back seat. I thought the 2004 was an improvement in some ways, mainly in making the 3.8 standard, instead of the Chevy 3.1. And, while the interior of the '04+ Grand Prix is dreadful by today's standards, I think they still made some pretty big strides when it comes to build quality and fit and finish. Sure, there's still too much plastic and cheap interior bits, but at least it all lined up better, with tighter gaps, and didn't feel like it would break off in your hand as easily.
I think another problem with the '04 Grand Prix was that it didn't know whether it wanted to be a coupe or sedan, and with the coupe going away, the '04 tried to be both at once. That's probably why it had such an odd shape and tiny back seat. I remember it being pretty roomy up front though, and having a decent-sized trunk. As far as back seat space goes though, I think my '76 LeMans coupe is more comfortable. At least I can fit back there without hitting my head, something of a miracle considering the car is only 53 inches tall, whereas the Grand Prix is probably more like 57-58".
I remember reading a couple reviews of the LeMans from the 1970's, and they said that Pontiac put more effort into their seats than the other divisions, or Ford and Mopar for that matter. So I wonder if that's another area where Pontiac don't make 'em like they used to?
Considering what a Pontiac fan I've been over the years, you'd think I'd be sadder about the brand going away. But I'm not. It's sort of like Plymouth, I guess, where the brand had been on life support for so long that when the plug finally got pulled, it was more like a mercy killing than anything else.
Too bad. There were a few bright spots before the light dimmed on Pontiac forever. I really like the G8. There's a guy in my neighborhood with one and it still draws my attention. I still think the GTO was a nice car. It needed time to evolve. The first GTO was nothing more than a pedestrian 1964 LeMans with a hotter engine.
Of course, crap like the recent Grand Ams and Montana minivans are best forgotten. I had a rental Grand Am for a few days and I couldn't believe the abominable Soviet-bloc quality of the slate gray interior materials. Even the cool red instrument backlighting couldn't distract me from it.
There was a time when Pontiac was clearly a step up from Chevrolet. Those mid-60s Catalinas, Executives, Bonnevilles, and Grand Prixes are drop-dead gorgeous cars with beautiful interiors that are much nicer than even the most loaded contemporary Caprice. In time, Pontiac devolved into "the other Chevy."
To be fair, Buick was also becoming "the other other Chevy" by the late 1990s. I had a 2001 Century as a rental. The exterior was nice if a bit bland and uninspired, but the interior was austere with acres of dull gray plastic. The instruments had these gigantic numerals - I imagine to enable the geriatric drivers to see them. It was very disappointing for a Buick. I saw early 1960s Chevrolet Biscaynes with more lavish interiors.
I also remember having a 2000 Regal as a rental during a trip to San Francisco. The car was nicely styled on the outside, but just as bad as the Century inside. I could see my 62 year-old Dad liking this car, but it fell flat as far as my expectations of what a Buick should be based on the beautiful 1979 Park Avenue I once owned. The Regal seemed a bit redundant as it wasn't much different from a Century and not anything of an upgrade. To me, a Regal is something more like the sleek RWD coupes of the 1980s and the Grand National. I envision Bobby Allison racing a NASCAR Regal at Talladega or Daytona, not some doddering 80 year-old geezer puttering around in a dull sedan in a marginal Lower NE Philly neighborhood.
I saw the LaCrosse as a sign of the rebirth of Buick. I remember sitting in a bright maroon new 2005 LaCrosse CXL at a dealership on Veteran's Day 2004. It was a quantum leap over the dull Century and Regal. The interior was a vast improvement over those barren beasts and the fit and finish was flawless. Clearly, somebody was doing their homework at Buick! I liked the car so much, I told me girlfriend about it and urged her to test drive one and consider it as a replacement for her troublesome 1999 Olds Cutlass sedan. She took one look at it and exclaimed, "I want this car!" and bought a Sapphire Blue Metallic LaCrosse CXL on March 12, 2005. I'm afraid to even look at the new LaCrosse. We might come home with two!!!
Which is the way they seem to be taking Buick, with planned versions of the Aveo successor and the Cruze for Buick. They also tried a Vue/Equinox Buick, but pulled the plug on it.
Thinking about buying one of those Buick Aveos? :shades:
If I see a Buick Aveo, I'll agree that GM is dead. They didn't learn a darn thing. :mad: I guess I've have to make do with what I have from now on or ....buy a Ford!!! (retch!) :sick: ....or an import (placing loaded .45 ACP to head and firing!)
I have rented a couple Grand Ams and was not impressed at all. The last decent Pontiac in my opinion was the 1960 Bonneville. The guy that owned the local Dairy Queen when I was in High School had a 1957 Bonneville Convertible with fuel injection. I loved that car. He took us kids for a ride in it. Made my 1947 Pontiac seem like the real junker that it was. Other than trucks, nothing from GM since has appealed to me. I did think the Cadillac Allante was a step in the right direction. I guess it was not much of a car.
The CRV's do feel rock solid, a friend of mine has an 07 with over 60k on it and it still feels brand new.
That's interesting. My 2007 Accord EX w/25k squeaks and rattles like a 80k car. The dash panels are fading at different rates, and the rear window motors whine going up and down. My 1993 Accord EX squeaked and rattled and so did my wife's '93 Civic. The Civic eventually made it to 180k before we gave it away, and the '93 Accord was at 160k I think. The '93 Accord was one of the least reliable vehicles our family has had (topped only by an '83 Reliant). It also beat out the Reliant and the Caravan for most times on a hook or flatbed.
I wouldn't go back that far. My Dad's 1965 GTO convertible was really awesome. I thought the 1966 and 1967 models were even cooler! Something like the 1967 Pontiac Grand Prix seems almost futuristic - even today! I'd say Pontiac's fall began in 1968.
Something like the 1967 Pontiac Grand Prix seems almost futuristic - even today! I'd say Pontiac's fall began in 1968.
I think that's one reason why I like the big '67 Pontiacs so much...they just have such a futuristic look to them! When I got my '67 Catalina, I remember one of my college buddies even commenting on the car and saying how futuristic it looked...and this was in 1994! He said he was used to the types of cars I drove looking, well, old! But to him, this one looked anything but!
I agree that 1968 was the year they started taking a turn for the worse, although I think the 1967 design is polarizing to some people. GM's big cars got fatter and curvier for '67, and I think that turned a lot of people off, compared to the slimmer '66 models.
But for '68, it seemed that Pontiac's beak was starting to turn into sort of a retro looking thing, evoking images of old 20's and 30's car with tall, skinny grilles. They toned it down for '69, which I think was a good looking, cleanly styled car, but then for 1970, the retro was back...although in those days they called it "neoclassic".
In the 1970's, Pontiac tried to start becoming all things to all people, as they reached down into Chevy territory, cloning the Nova, Vega, and Monza (and even the Chevette for 1980 or 81 ) Then at the upper end, a Bonneville Brougham wasn't enough for them, so they took the B-body and forced an Electra/98/DeVille roofline onto it, trimming where needed, and conjured up the Grand Ville. The ruse worked for awhile, but it all unwound in the 1974 oil embargo, and Pontiac's mid- and full-sized cars, with the exception of the Grand Prix, never fully recovered.
Not only Pontiac, but every make was trying to be all makes to all people. This is the fault of the dealers - "Waaaah!!! Chevy's got a sporty subcompact! I want one too!" cries the Buick or Oldsmobile dealer. Then we got trash like the Skyhawk and Firenza! :sick: GM should've told them, "Shaddup, crybaby! You're a Buick or an Oldsmobile dealer! Have some dignity! You're selling stately upscale cars to more mature people, not boy-racers to greasy kids or econoboxes to college coeds! Let Chevy and, to a lesser extent, Pontiac have that market!"
Well, the '97 GTP was a decent car but the depreciation on it was brutal. The water pump failed at 30K miles and then at 74K miles, the key remained stuck in the ignition and would not come out when shifted into park. This was tolerated for 4K more miles but no one would take it even though I left the key in the ignition all that time!! Hmmm...says something, don't you think? Additionally, the squeaks and rattles were becoming almost deafening at the point.
I originally paid $23K or it in April '97 new.
I remember at the time of trade in April 2004, 7 year old Toyotas were claiming over $10K in the market and the high line GTP was claiming around $5-6K. I traded it in for a Lincoln LS for $4,500 and the key still stuck in the ignition!! :lemon:
I'm kind of mixed on my feelings towards the Grand Ville. Had I been shopping for a car back in the early 1970s, something like the Grand Ville would've drawn my attention, but I'd have likely bought an Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency or a Buick Electra 225 Limited instead. The Bonneville was already a pretty nice car and Pontiac should've left it at that.
I have an 08 G6, and would love to dump it!! Brakes replaced-fronts were glazed! catalytic converter replaced windows stopped rolling down 2 times Something is still not right with the transmission.
Only 20,600 miles. Surely there has to be a way!! :mad: Luckily its a lease! Too long! Hmm, why is Pontiac Dead?
If I was of new-car shopping age in the early 70's, I probably would have gone with a Buick LeSabre or Electra. Or the Centurion, when it was available. I thought the Buicks tended to have a clean, smooth, even slightly sporty look to them, whereas the Oldsmobiles were a bit more conservative...plus I never cared for the peaks between the headlights.
In 1974 though, I could have seen myself going for something like a Plymouth Fury or Dodge Monaco. I thought those were handsome looking cars...almost a bit Buick-ish. Unfortunately, not too well-built, and the Lean Burn was probably extra-troublesome that year, so I imagine something like that would've sent me running to GM for my next car!
Comments
The '08 CR-V I've been driving for the last 13K miles has been absolutely flawless, all for $22,500.
Regards,
OW
I'd steer clear of Honda and Toyota though...too much hype, too much name recognition, not enough bang for the buck. Nissan and Hyundai are different stories.
Pretty much I just shop Ford, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia these days. I'd shop Mazda but they have pretty much the same lineup they did 5 years ago. Same suspension too *grabs kidneys in remembered agony*
Hopefully it doesn't get the differential, tranny or A/C problems that seem to be inflicting Honda's as they age. I like driving Honda's, but have become wary of them after all of these expensive issues people are posting. They seem to be getting D3 in quality and customer attitude?
That's good. How are the transmissions in those Hondas?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I just checked my 2000 Intrepid's service records, and the first incident that came up that I'd consider breakage, rather than a maintenance issue, didn't happen until 35,000 miles. The power lock actuator in the driver's door had to be replaced, under warranty. And at 51,000 miles I had to have the thermostat housing replaced, to the tune of $210. But other than that, it was just maintenance/wear&tear type stuff.
Now around 75,000 miles I stripped the head on the oil drain plug and the mechanic had to drill it out. That was about $55. But I'd consider that my fault, not the car's. And at 88,000 miles, the oil pressure light came on, but that was fixed under a TSB, and turned out to be a problem with the sensor, and not a real oil pressure problem. New rotors at 98,000 miles, and that's about it for unscheduled repairs over the first 100,000 miles.
So, it wasn't perfect, but I'd say overall it was still a pretty good car. I don't think I'd be afraid to buy another Chrysler product. Or a GM or Ford.
From my experience - I'd buy GM first, Chrysler second, and Ford as a last-ditch effort. All others aren't even on my map.
pf_flyer, "New GM Logo Ideas" #1, 26 Aug 2009 3:58 am
I don't have to bring up my wife's 2003 Denali problems again, now, do I?? Almost became a LEMON candidate at 30K+ miles in addition to the other parts failing, all within 50K of ownership. More like a Volkswagen then a GMC product!!
Anyway, at $22,500 for the CR-V, I'm beating anything comparable the "Little 3" have to offer these days with respect to the total value proposition on 4 wheels in that category of vehicle. I expect major parts to last into the 200K range as I maintain them as required.
I'll shop GM in 4 years....if they pay me back by then. :P Ford, maybe. C??? NEVER!
Regards,
OW
From my experience, I'd buy from the company that makes the best products for the money....that ain't USA for cars anymore...
Regards,
OW
Ahh yes, what fond memories...didn't the power steering on that thing fail, leaving your wife stranded in an intersection or something like that. Truthfully, if I'd had an experience like that, I don't think I'd be shopping that particular brand again, either!
I hope you continue to have good luck with your CRV. I've only known two people that have had crap Hondas, and that was awhile back. One was a 1980 Accord that, by 1988 was on its second engine and transmission, and was a rustbucket. When that second tranny went, my friend dumped it. Now it was also a used car when he got it, but still. I've always said that if GM could have made EVERY car as good as my 1980 Malibu was back then, and if Honda had made EVERY car as bad as my friend's Accord was, then GM wouldn't be in the predicament they're in today! And in retrospect, that Malibu wasn't that great of a car...but for the time it was pretty good.
The other was a 1994 Civic that blew two head gaskets and needed a/c work. I had actually recommended the Civic to my friends, which is why I think it let them down! They traded it with around 80-90K miles on it, when head gasket #2 blew, and got a Saturn S-series. They also had a Ford Windstall around that time. Last time I saw them though, they had a Toyota Corolla and a Kia Sorrento.
But, then I knew someone with a 1992 Civic who abused the hell out of it, and got around 175-180,000 miles out of it, so sometimes it's a crap shoot I think, whether you get a good car or a lemon.
Hey, my parent's '87 Jetta takes offense to that statement!
The Jetta was rock solid and pretty peppy and a good handler for its time. It also got to 100K miles before becoming hopelessly Chrysler like in needing repairs every 2 to 3 months (expensive ones). Sure, it had some electrical gremlins before 100K miles, and the clutches got worn out rather quickly, but it did have 3 drivers, my parents, and my older brother used it as his first car, so I'm sure it took a beating and was abused by him thoroughly. I remember thinking 100,000 miles wasn't bad to give up on it... I think it died and needed a tow at like 101,000 miles. My dad got rid of it immediately thereafter since it was becoming a money pit.
I don't think it's a crap shoot, but more like having pocket aces against someone with 2,7 offsuit. The Honda is the pocket aces, and the Chrysler woudl be the 2 7 off suit. Case in point, your friends were able to trade in that terrible Civic and AFFORD a Saturn S series thanks to great resale value which is thanks to an incredible history of dependability and "live forever" reputation.
With my Neon that had the same head gasket and AC issues as well, I couldn't trade it in for a Huffy bicycle, let alone another vehicle. At least wth Honda you can abandon a lemon without losing your shirt, your house, your dog, and your firstborn.
Thanks for the well wishes for the Honda. So far so good, as I'm driving it until my eldest daughter is of driving age in 2 years!! She gets her LP in October! :sick:
Regards,
OW
I think the Chinese making Buicks and the Koreans bolting together "Chevys" would be more amused by that statement than the folks building Hondas, Toyotas, Subarus, Mercedes and BMWs here in the US.
That said, I respect your loyalty. I only hope that the NEW GM appreciates you and your kind of buyer to reward them with truly world class vehicles. If you are happy, that's all that counts in my book.
There are hints of capability in Buick and Caddy but there is a lot of old baggage apparent as well. The problem in the past was that the Finance direction ruined them. It's time for Design, Quality and Engineering to control the business above the Financial piece. That's the secret they continue to avoid.
Why??
Those functions can add and subtract...no need for a Calculator Mentality to destroy the main goal of a corporation. Give them the goal an let them run with it. Accounting should be only a nascent piece if success is the true goal.
Regards,
OW
There is no mistaking the fact the EVERYONE that wants to make great products has a say in the global economic story. You can keep your head in the sand of the US beaches but if you really want to succeed, just be brilliant....as a team...not just the Suits.
That's what got us here in the first place...the desire to deliver. Period, the END.
Regards,
OW
The Toyota Corolla was the most popular new vehicle purchased under the program. The Honda Civic, Toyota Camry and Ford Focus held the next three top spots. All four are built in the United States.
Any questions?
I have one...this is directed to Jeffrey Anwyl, CEO of Edmunds...Do you really think buyers are that interested in gas guzzlers to support raising gas taxes to urge the consuming market to buy efficient vehicles?
Regards,
OW
Still waiting for my wife to get her replacement for her 07 Grand Prix. Another GM beauty. Anyone who'd buy a GP with their own money hopefully got it dirt cheap because that's how it looks, feels, and drives. It's hell on wheels.
Anyway regarding Honda, I know lots of people who own them and they all love them. I only know one person that has had a major issue at low miles and Honda bought it back and replaced it ASAP. It had a block casting issue that caused an oil leak. The block needed to be replaced, so to make my friend happy, they gave him a brand new van (his was only a few weeks old). My dad has an 09 Accord EX-L v6. He already has close to 15k on it and it is amazingly refined and IMO is much nicer than anything the domestics have at the same price point (styling aside).
My aunt and Uncle have had 3 CRVs in a row since they were first introduced and they have not had a single problem with any of them. IMO Honda's are among the class leaders with their lineup except for the Ridgeline which IMO is completely undesirable.
The CR-V feels so rock solid, I'm sure it will be one of the best reliable rides I have ever owned. The 330xi was also solid for the 3 years I leased it. Had I know ahead of time of the reliability it gave me, it would still be in the garage today because I would have bought it.
Regards,
OW
The Toyota Corolla was the most popular new vehicle purchased under the program. The Honda Civic, Toyota Camry and Ford Focus held the next three top spots. All four are built in the United States.
I thought the Focus was built in Mexico?
No matter what vehicle is benefiting the most from C4C, we’re sure the hard hit auto workers at the Wayne Assembly plant will appreciate the overtime, which will run from now through the end of September and will result in an additional 6,400 Focuses rolling down the line. For those interested in the numbers, Ford reported a 44-percent increase in Focus sales in July over the previous month.
Regards,
OW
So, what "Chinese Buick" is sold here???? My new Lacrosse was built in Fairfax, Kansas. Buick also EXPORTS the Enclave, built in Delta Township Mi. to China, and the new Cruze based "Baby Buick" is rumored to be exported there as well.
IIRC, the WTO ruled AGAINST China for forcing foreign companies to align themselves with Chinese companies if they want to do business there.
You know, I've been waiting to take you to task on the GP, as my SIL bought an '06 used several months ago. It has 45K miles on it, equipped like a rental car would be. A nice looking car, and I'm sure it will be as reliable as my old Park Ave is.
Then I went for a ride in it........ :surprise:
THAT BACK SEAT -- SEAT BACK IS LIKE A ROCK! The cloth is bare bones cloth, coarse!!! It's LOUD, and when riding on a coarser grade of pavement, it sounded as if someone fired up a bullet heater in it!!!
I see why you are less than thrilled to take a ride in it. Too bad they didn't give her a GP GXP, and I'm sure it would be a better version. But that car is plain BS!!!
THAT BACK SEAT -- SEAT BACK IS LIKE A ROCK! The cloth is bare bones cloth, coarse!!! It's LOUD, and when riding on a coarser grade of pavement, it sounded as if someone fired up a bullet heater in it!!!
I see why you are less than thrilled to take a ride in it. Too bad they didn't give her a GP GXP, and I'm sure it would be a better version. But that car is plain BS!!!
Yes it is bad. Mind boggling to me that as of 07 GM still built something that bad. You should drive it in the rain, when it hits puddles it sounds like a pressure washer is spraying 3000psi+ into the fender wells. No sound insulation at all.
Hopefully she'll be getting something else by the end of the year. Normally she gets to choose among 3-4 models, but we were relocated her two years ago and the car was ordered for her. Oh well.
Regards,
OW
Pretty much I just shop Ford, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia these days. I'd shop Mazda but they have pretty much the same lineup they did 5 years ago. Same suspension too *grabs kidneys in remembered agony*
Only I would add my current rig's maker Mitsubishi to that list and call it sound as a pound. The only thing close to a flaw in my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS has been a recall to add a rear door "sash", an extra clip that holds the rear door closed during "certain crash impact angles." OK fine. Took about an hour at the dealer one day during a routine earl change.
I think I love my Lancer GTS more now than on March 21, 2007, the day I purchased the car at Avondale Mitsubishi, 9 miles west of Phoenix.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Hey now...I had a 1969 Bonneville that had 108,000 miles on it. It belonged to my cousin before me and as abusive as he is on cars he should be banned from owning them. Oh, and it got struck by lightning. :P
When I got my '67 Catalina, the salesguy tried to tell me it only had 45,000 miles on it, but it had a freshly rebuilt engine and tranny, and had just been repainted. Gas and brake pedals had also been replaced (found the old ones in the trunk), and the vinyl on the front seat where the driver's butt would go had been replaced and slightly mis-matched. So I bought the car, knowing full well that it was most likely 145,000 miles.
And, while it only has around 79K miles on it, my '76 Grand LeMans is still running after 33 years!
So maybe Pontiac is one of those instances where "They don't build 'em like they used to" really rings true?
I'm kinda sad to hear your '97 Grand Prix was crap after 7 years. I really liked the style of the 1997-03 Grand Prix, although that swoopy body really cut down on interior room, mainly in the back seat. I thought the 2004 was an improvement in some ways, mainly in making the 3.8 standard, instead of the Chevy 3.1. And, while the interior of the '04+ Grand Prix is dreadful by today's standards, I think they still made some pretty big strides when it comes to build quality and fit and finish. Sure, there's still too much plastic and cheap interior bits, but at least it all lined up better, with tighter gaps, and didn't feel like it would break off in your hand as easily.
I think another problem with the '04 Grand Prix was that it didn't know whether it wanted to be a coupe or sedan, and with the coupe going away, the '04 tried to be both at once. That's probably why it had such an odd shape and tiny back seat. I remember it being pretty roomy up front though, and having a decent-sized trunk. As far as back seat space goes though, I think my '76 LeMans coupe is more comfortable. At least I can fit back there without hitting my head, something of a miracle considering the car is only 53 inches tall, whereas the Grand Prix is probably more like 57-58".
I remember reading a couple reviews of the LeMans from the 1970's, and they said that Pontiac put more effort into their seats than the other divisions, or Ford and Mopar for that matter. So I wonder if that's another area where Pontiac don't make 'em like they used to?
Considering what a Pontiac fan I've been over the years, you'd think I'd be sadder about the brand going away. But I'm not. It's sort of like Plymouth, I guess, where the brand had been on life support for so long that when the plug finally got pulled, it was more like a mercy killing than anything else.
Of course, crap like the recent Grand Ams and Montana minivans are best forgotten. I had a rental Grand Am for a few days and I couldn't believe the abominable Soviet-bloc quality of the slate gray interior materials. Even the cool red instrument backlighting couldn't distract me from it.
There was a time when Pontiac was clearly a step up from Chevrolet. Those mid-60s Catalinas, Executives, Bonnevilles, and Grand Prixes are drop-dead gorgeous cars with beautiful interiors that are much nicer than even the most loaded contemporary Caprice. In time, Pontiac devolved into "the other Chevy."
I also remember having a 2000 Regal as a rental during a trip to San Francisco. The car was nicely styled on the outside, but just as bad as the Century inside. I could see my 62 year-old Dad liking this car, but it fell flat as far as my expectations of what a Buick should be based on the beautiful 1979 Park Avenue I once owned. The Regal seemed a bit redundant as it wasn't much different from a Century and not anything of an upgrade. To me, a Regal is something more like the sleek RWD coupes of the 1980s and the Grand National. I envision Bobby Allison racing a NASCAR Regal at Talladega or Daytona, not some doddering 80 year-old geezer puttering around in a dull sedan in a marginal Lower NE Philly neighborhood.
I saw the LaCrosse as a sign of the rebirth of Buick. I remember sitting in a bright maroon new 2005 LaCrosse CXL at a dealership on Veteran's Day 2004. It was a quantum leap over the dull Century and Regal. The interior was a vast improvement over those barren beasts and the fit and finish was flawless. Clearly, somebody was doing their homework at Buick! I liked the car so much, I told me girlfriend about it and urged her to test drive one and consider it as a replacement for her troublesome 1999 Olds Cutlass sedan. She took one look at it and exclaimed, "I want this car!" and bought a Sapphire Blue Metallic LaCrosse CXL on March 12, 2005. I'm afraid to even look at the new LaCrosse. We might come home with two!!!
Which is the way they seem to be taking Buick, with planned versions of the Aveo successor and the Cruze for Buick. They also tried a Vue/Equinox Buick, but pulled the plug on it.
Thinking about buying one of those Buick Aveos? :shades:
That's interesting. My 2007 Accord EX w/25k squeaks and rattles like a 80k car. The dash panels are fading at different rates, and the rear window motors whine going up and down. My 1993 Accord EX squeaked and rattled and so did my wife's '93 Civic. The Civic eventually made it to 180k before we gave it away, and the '93 Accord was at 160k I think. The '93 Accord was one of the least reliable vehicles our family has had (topped only by an '83 Reliant). It also beat out the Reliant and the Caravan for most times on a hook or flatbed.
I think that's one reason why I like the big '67 Pontiacs so much...they just have such a futuristic look to them! When I got my '67 Catalina, I remember one of my college buddies even commenting on the car and saying how futuristic it looked...and this was in 1994! He said he was used to the types of cars I drove looking, well, old! But to him, this one looked anything but!
I agree that 1968 was the year they started taking a turn for the worse, although I think the 1967 design is polarizing to some people. GM's big cars got fatter and curvier for '67, and I think that turned a lot of people off, compared to the slimmer '66 models.
But for '68, it seemed that Pontiac's beak was starting to turn into sort of a retro looking thing, evoking images of old 20's and 30's car with tall, skinny grilles. They toned it down for '69, which I think was a good looking, cleanly styled car, but then for 1970, the retro was back...although in those days they called it "neoclassic".
In the 1970's, Pontiac tried to start becoming all things to all people, as they reached down into Chevy territory, cloning the Nova, Vega, and Monza (and even the Chevette for 1980 or 81
I originally paid $23K or it in April '97 new.
I remember at the time of trade in April 2004, 7 year old Toyotas were claiming over $10K in the market and the high line GTP was claiming around $5-6K. I traded it in for a Lincoln LS for $4,500 and the key still stuck in the ignition!! :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Perfect account of history.
Regards,
OW
Brakes replaced-fronts were glazed!
catalytic converter replaced
windows stopped rolling down 2 times
Something is still not right with the transmission.
Only 20,600 miles. Surely there has to be a way!! :mad:
Hmm, why is Pontiac Dead?
58 Bonneville
61 Catalina
63 Bonnie
65/66 Bonnie and Grand Prix
65 Lemans
70 Grand Prix
In 1974 though, I could have seen myself going for something like a Plymouth Fury or Dodge Monaco. I thought those were handsome looking cars...almost a bit Buick-ish. Unfortunately, not too well-built, and the Lean Burn was probably extra-troublesome that year, so I imagine something like that would've sent me running to GM for my next car!