GM News, New Models and Market Share

lemko

Heck, I miss siding with him! It's tough going it alone!

iluvmysephia1

rocky fought long and hard for the GM/UAW cause. Really ran up the posts on Edmunds. Funny, though, he didn't seem to get anywhere with any of us hardcores at all. :shades:

Still, I do hope our brother is doing fine. Even if it's with Beth. Still can't figure out why he refused to post pics of that babe.

dieselone

Heck, I miss siding with him! It's tough going it alone!

Well, it wouldn't be much fun going back and forth if we all agreed.

lemko

No, I saw pictures of her and she was a tall attractive babe! Don't know if he posted them here or sent me an email.

iluvmysephia1

hey, I don't know why I'm being so persistent about this, could just be a normal guy thing, but if you have the pic why not post it on here for us all to see?

Is that against the rules? :P The rockyhouse rules!

circlew

All the Chinese would have to do is buy a controlling interest after the IPO. Yes, the UAW and U.S. Gov't could block it. Money talks at the end of the day. Depends on where GM is in the next few years.

Regards,
OW

2012aveo

China's economy and auto industry are on the rise. It is the only place in the world where GM makes money. It is only logical that a Chinese company may want to buy it to gain access to it's technology and dealership network if nothing else. I wonder who else would buy the new GM stock once it goes IPO.

imidazol97

Here's a 41K Park Ave.
1998 PA 41K $5000

It's in a relatively rural Indiana area SE of Indy. Maybe a retired person? GM retiree from Anderson (Indiana) GM plants? They drove the pickup most of the time? It'd be interesting to see the real history on why the car has only 41K miles. Did those rims come on the touring suspension models?

Who says GM cars don't last!

dieselone

All the Chinese would have to do is buy a controlling interest after the IPO. Yes, the UAW and U.S. Gov't could block it. Money talks at the end of the day. Depends on where GM is in the next few years.

IIRC, that what happen when they tried to by Unocal, big uproar, then it was blocked.

circlew

Correct...but the landscape is a little different at the moment...

All that strength in China could leave GM's U.S. ownership somewhat vulnerable. If GM's major Chinese partner, SIAC, wanted to buy a controlling stake in GM, the company would have a difficult time saying no, given its importance to the company's future.

"I think there would be a national outcry in that regard," said IRN's Corth, who points out the backlash when Chinese oil company CNOOC tried to buy Unocal in 2005. GM, despite its troubles, is far more of a U.S. icon than Unocal.

But when the China-Unocal deal was blocked, there was a U.S. buyer, Chevron, ready to step in and buy the company. There's not likely any U.S. company that would be interested in buying control of GM.

The Treasury Department, the union-controlled trust funds and the former GM bondholders who got stock in company in the bankruptcy process are all on record wanting to sell their stakes in the automaker as soon as possible. Those three groups hold almost all the GM shares.

Regards,
OW

cooterbfd

Well.............the body is solid, one little soft spot on the passenger's side floor. Some rust around the windshield channel and the driver's side door window frame. The panel in front of the hood is rusted, and it needs a new interior. Nothing major. Never heard it run, though.

nippononly

I wouldn't pay that much for a Mercedes E-Class or Lexus LS with that kind of miles!

You wouldn't pay $6500 for a 78K-mile, 12 year old LS400? You'd be crazy to pass that up, those LS400s are right up your alley! It would be a steal at that price.

cooterbfd

One would assume that nothing would be "allowed" to happen until after 11/2012. I would imagine that it would be political suicide for Obama. Even the people who are against the bailout and "want their money back" would criticize him for handing over GM to the Chinese.

After the elections, if he gets back in, all bets are off, as he would be "lame duck". It would be very easy to just let it happen. It's not as if we could then vote him out, and he has the excuse that they offered him the best deal.

But, that is 3 full years from now, and a lot can happen.

nippononly

LOL!!

Well now is the time to take this 1998 Buick Park Avenue home today with features that include uncompromising safety with the Driver Air Bag, an easily adjustable Tilt-Wheel, and the ability to reduce injuries in a collision with the standard Passenger Air Bag.

So, for safety it has the twin airbags mandated by federal law since the early 90s, and a tilt wheel feature that every car sold for the last 20 years has had? Well in that case, let ME drive down there! :-P

It is classy that they mentioned the climate control system twice though, and I'm sure those "performance alloy wheels" enable that thing to outrun a Corvette! Andre, forget the P/A and go for the G8!!

cooterbfd

Hey, the '79 I looked at has tilt/telescope steering!!

nippononly

If the company looks like failing again though, I'm sure the only way to assure its future will be to sell it to the Chinese.

The real test of the "new GM" will be if the company is doing so well in a year that those three large stakeholder groups have other buyers for their controlling shares. The real question is, what automaker would want them, and what non-automaker would have the expertise to make it a useful purchase?

stever

Here's a different take on the Big 3 from the NY Times, with a shot at the former leadership of GM.

Leaving for China does sort of fit in with the capitalist model though. Chase the cheapest labor and material.

nippononly

Exactly! ;-)

british_rover

My 89 Bonneville, same platform and same drivetrain with different suspension interior as the Park Ave, was fine at 160,000 when I sold it.

I had to do a timing chain on it when the tensioner let go at about 130,000 miles but other then that I had no problems with it for the nearly100,000 miles I drove it. Oh I had to put a 02 sensor in it when I bought it but that was only 20 bucks as those are cheap single wire sensors for that year car.

Last time I talked to the guy I sold it to he had 200,000 miles on it still no problems.

I sold it to him after his 88 Park Ave finally kicked the bucket with 288,000 miles. The transmission let go and it wasn't worth fixing.

dieselone

Man, I can't remember the last time I saw a bonneville on the road. For as many that were sold over the years, they've seemed to disappear. Maybe I just don't notice them anymore.

Another example of cars GM made that sold well for a while, then all of those customers left. I wonder why? Well, not really, I understand fully why so many of GM customers shopped elsewhere.

cooterbfd

"......Another example of cars GM made that sold well for a while, then all of those customers left. I wonder why? "

I think it was a combination of the SUV/truck craze, and the '00 redesign, which wasn't all that hot.

anythngbutgm

I disagree, the SSEI version was a sharp looking car. There is a guy with a plum colored one nearby that I see every now and then.

hackattack5

I was 21 years old in 1984 and bought a brand new Pontiac Firebird. Any extra penny I had went to pay for gas, insurance and car payment. Well after about 50 trips back to the dealer and talking to the factory rep for the same problem they finally said that was no fix. It was a design flaw. The guy told me that the good news was that they fixed the problem on the 85 Firebird so I told them to take my car with 4000 miles that was not drive able and give me a 85 model and he said sure but we will not be able to give you much for my trade inn. Of course I never bought and will never buy GM again and I must not be alone because look at them now. I think Toyota has gotten too big and we might see the same thing with them. Look at International Harvester they made great farm equipment but got to big to manage. any company that wants to be the biggest on the planet will start out with the customer in mind but end up getting greedy and forgetting about value.

lemko

Really? I guess they all moved from the suburbs to the city as I see plenty of Bonnevilles around here. This is one GM customer who will shop nowhere else but GM.

andre1969

I think it was a combination of the SUV/truck craze, and the '00 redesign, which wasn't all that hot.

The 2000 redesign was actually what turned me on to the Bonneville again! While it was still a little overdone with the ribs and wings, I just liked it better, overall, than the 1992-99 style.

I think the main thing that killed it was simply the market for larger cars drying up. People who wanted something big would go for a truck or SUV. And those who wanted a big car tended to be older, so they'd go for something more conservative like a LeSabre, rather than something sportier like a Bonneville.

lemko

I'd say Microsoft and Wal~Mart both fall into that category. I guess companies are like stars that grow into red giants. Eventually, they collapse into themselves.

anythngbutgm

I admire your loyalty man. I just don't think I could go through my entire life not trying out different brands. It's all part of being an enthusiast IMO. But, there are guys out there who swear by Corvettes and there are guys who swear by Mustangs. Can't fault you for liking what you like :shades:

lemko

I had a coworker with a white Bonneville SSEi. I thought it was a pretty cool car with an instrumental panel that lit up like Times Square and the cool heads-up display.

lemko

Well, I've tried Ford and Chrysler. The one Mopar I owned turned out to be one of the best cars I ever owned. It was a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue I sold to my brother back in 1993. He's still driving it to this day. I'd get another Chrysler, but I like the GM products so much better and the local Chrysler dealer is a sleaze who makes the guys at Towbin Dodge from "King of Cars" look classy and refined. I have a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS as my "hooptie." I still don't like it as much as my old 1988 Buick Park Avenue. The Park Ave may have been a smaller car with only a V-6, but it had a much plusher interior and delivered phenomenal fuel economy.

imidazol97

>Man, I can't remember the last time I saw a bonneville on the road.

They're all here. They're all over the place from all those relatively large, 6-person haulers that gave 30+ mpg that were sold from 92 on. And there are earlier ones from the 80's generation.

They are all around along with Oldsmobile 88s and lots of Buick leSabres. For the last many years a neighbor up the road who dabbles in off-the-books auto trading loves finding an H-body with under a high mileage number to clean up, polish, and resell on the street. Anything under 150K and a 95 for example seems to be readily saleable.

There must be a black hole where dieselone is that he doesn't see them.

dieselone

but it had a much plusher interior

Hmm, beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess. Up until the current new Buicks, I've never been in one that I would consider having anywhere near a nice interior. They all had cheap buttons and knobs that wouldn't look out of place on a fisher price play stove.

The Bonnes had the same fate. A neighbor I used to have had an '00 or so SSEi and while the looks were okay, that dash was horrible. To may cheap buttons, nothing looked quality.

Same goes for my wife's GP the interior is horrid and so was my Suburban. I've seen Kia's with better interiors. Truly pathetic and it's no wonder so many customers have ran away.

My Suburban was particularly bad, because the interior literally fell apart. With less than 60k miles on it, i was driving down a gravel road and the whole damn overhead console with the map lights and rear HVAC controls fell down. The volume knob on the radio would pop off too, when going down rough roads. So much for a tough SUV, that thing was horribly designed and built. The real contrast was I also owned an 01 Nissan Pathfinder at the same time as my '00 Suburban. I could drive the PF down a gravel washboard surface road at 50mph w/o issue. Nothing rattled or vibrated, the suspension acted quickly enough to keep the vehicle straight.

OTOH, I would drive the Suburban down the same stretch of gravel road and I couldn't go over 30 mph before the dash would vibrate so bad, that parts would literally fall off and the suspension was so clumsy I couldn't keep it going straight, as it would start to fishtale, it would just bounce all over the place. It was so bad, if I new I had to go down that road, I would take the Nissan, cause the Suburban felt like it would fall apart.

imidazol97

I think we've heard the Suburban story a few hundred times now. I thought we were talking about autos and not trucks. I've seldom been in truck-based vehicles that didn't have a rattle.

I have to say my leSabres and a couple Centuries before didn't have rattles unless there was something in the trunk loose. Very well put together.

If you don't like the GP your wife's employer provides at no taxable income value, I assume, I suggest she just tell them she wants something different.

lemko

You gotta go back a bit. My 1988 Park Ave used to have a really cool touch panel for the HVAC controls with little orange lights and a reassuring "beep" when you pressed it. The door panels had a plush upper portion, a splash of brightwork, imitation wood, and carpeted lower portion with red and white courtesy lights. It had thick plush dark blue seats with "Park Avenue" embroidered into the seat backs, and nice thick deep pile dark blue carpet. The buttons for windows, locks, seat controls, radio, etc, were all chrome.

1990s and later cars have big slabs of hard plastic for door panels, dark matte gray buttons for controls, "mouse fur" cloth upholstery, and nary any brightwork.

lemko

Shoot, what does one expect for free? Heck, just get a car you like for your personal transportation and let the wife use the GP as her hooptie.

british_rover

As for electrical issues, my Suburban had gremlins too. When you put it in reverse with the lights on, the rear wiper would make one swipe on occasion. Turn on the fog lights and the rear washer pump would turn on. Weird stuff.

I can't speak for the fog light thing but the rear wiper sweep with the lights on was probably a design feature.

Starting in the late 90s early 2000s some cars with rear wipers would turn the rear wiper on automatically if the car was put in reverse with the windshield wipers on. Some of those cars also had a feature that if the headlights were on the rear wiper would do one swipe in reverse even if the windshield wipers were off. I don't know for sure that your Suburban was set up that way but I do know that 2000ish Land Rovers were.

andre1969

When the Park Ave went to that larger, more curvy style for 1991, could you still get a cloth interior? One thing that made the older models feel more luxurious to me, was the nice, padded cloth/velour on the door panels that would match the seats, although sometimes if you got leather seats, they'd replace that with vinyl. With the 1991 Park Ave though, I think the door panels were more of a soft-touch plastic than what I'd consider vinyl. It was more like dashboard padding or something...the kind of stuff that when it cracks, you see the foam padding underneath.

When the LeSabre went more rounded for 1992, it started using that stuff as well, and it was the same whether you got cloth or vinyl, as I recall. It gave the interior a much more stark appearance.

dieselone

I can't speak for the fog light thing but the rear wiper sweep with the lights on was probably a design feature.

It only did it once in a while and it was completely random. Some times it wouldn't make a full sweep, it just unpark then go right back down to the park position.

The only thing I could figure with the rear washer/fog light, is the the buttons for each were within the same switch panel right next to each other. If the fog lights were on so was the rear washer. Weird.

dieselone

If you don't like the GP your wife's employer provides at no taxable income value, I assume, I suggest she just tell them she wants something different.

She has to pay for personal use, something like 8-10 cents a mile. No chance on getting something different, gonna have to wait until she hits the require miles.

I could tolerate it if it wasn't for how uncomfortable the front seats are, the lower lumbar support doesn't fit me or her. Which stinks 'cause I'm really racking the miles on the Expedition, as we take it everywhere.

lemko

I dunno if you could get a cloth interior with the 1991 Park Ave. Buick interiors did get pretty stark before the debut of the 2005 LaCrosse. I drove a 2004 Century as a rental and the interior was so stark, a 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne seemed like a Lexus LS in comparison. When I first sat in a 2005 LaCrosse on Veteran's Day 2004, I could believe what a quantum leap the LaCrosse interior was over the 2004 Regal and Century. It actually had brightwork, soft trim, and wood trim versus acres of stark hard beige or gray plastic. The 2010 LaCrosse makes my wife's car look stark and old and is most definitely a leap in the right direction! Good thing she's not the car nut I am as there most definitely would be a Sapphire Blue metallic 2010 LaCrosse in our driveway.

lemko

I guess people forgot what used to pass for seats back in the day was more or less vinyl or cloth covered park benches.

dieselone

Heck, just get a car you like for your personal transportation and let the wife use the GP as her hooptie.

I'd like to, but having a travel trailer and a boat requires a truck/suv and I really don't want another vehicle around, already got to much stuff. I had thought about getting a car and keeping the Suburban for towing duties, but unfortunately it was giving me so many problems I got fed up and dumped it. My 07 Expedition is good so far. It's been reliable, tows well, drives nice enough, and is comfortable. No, it's not a Sequoia (though I don't care at all for the styling), or probably even as good as an Armada, but I got it a lot cheaper, so I was willing to settle for a bit less for the right price.

I don't drive much during the week, most of my miles are weekend trips to the lake and family trips back home. Lots of miles for that. So buying a car just to drive 50-100 miles during the week doesn't make a lot of sense.

plekto

C&D -

The turbo engine is quiet and refined, with a very progressive power delivery. It’s not a startlingly fast car, but passing power is decent and it feels competitive with the likes of an Audi A4 2.0T and the four-cylinder TSX. The six-speed automatic transmission is superb, with quick, well-damped shifts. The manual is pretty good, too, if notchier than the slick-shifting Acura’s. The Regal goes around corners in a nicely predictable manner, but it’s not the most entertaining of back-road companions. Torque steer is negligible, even with the standard stability-control system turned off, and the base suspension offers a composed and supple ride.


Auto review translator(tm) reads:

It's not as good as the TSX. It's not as good as the A4. Handling isn't as good, either.

That's the problem. It's not *better*, or at least a serious attempt at it. And buyers cross-shop today.

lemko

It's also not as expensive as the TSX or A4.

dieselone

Shoot, what does one expect for free?

That's not the point, the point is how bad the car is regardless if I have to pay for it or not.

Grand Prix's were cool in the 80's and 90's and then it ended up rental/fleet queens, like so many other GM models that are not around anymore.

lemko

This is when Grand Prixes were REALLY COOL!!!



1960s Pontiacs were CLEARLY a step up from a Chevrolet. Damn you, Roger Smith!

fezo

You need to bite the bullet and drive the heck out of that things so that as quickly as you can you hit that 80K on it so they can replace it. Maybe you can hire a kid with an iron back to just drive it around and around on a track somewhere for 25K miles....

lemko

Heck, give it to me so I can keep the miles off my rides. I'm sure I'd appreciate it more and you'd get it back in better condition than when you left it to me.

british_rover

The first generation FWD 1988-1991 models are starting to dry up around here but I do still see them from time to time. Most of those models had thin paint like lots of GM product from that time period so they didn't hold up to well in this part of the country. I see a decent number of the second and third gen models. I liked the third gen version when it came out but I kind of like the two previous versions better.

If a good condition first gen SSE or second gen SSEi came around I would probably pick it up for an extra car. Those first gen SSEs were button city though all over the dash and steering wheel. Looked cool at the time but didn't age well. I could probably get around most of those features using a modern carputer setup and a touch screen in the dash.

lemko

You must remember those Pontiacs with all the buttons on the steering wheel. It was like Speed Racer's Mach 5. I wonder if those Ponchos had a button for the robot homing pigeon or the circular saw blades to get those annoying trees and telephone poles out of the way?

andre1969

That is one sweet ride. That color looks similar to my '67 Catalina, although I think it's the darker "Mayfair Maize", compared to my Catalina's "Montego Cream".

The colors look very close, until you see them side by side. Here's a pic I took of a '67 Olds that was for sale just outside the Carlisle fairgrounds...

Olds called their version of that color "Saffron." My Catalina is just poking into the lower part of the pic, showing the difference between the two.