By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
E-class is by far the leading German taxi, although there are others, including VW vans and Prius. I even saw a couple W123 still in service...I think taxis there are owned by the driver and the old timers hold on to their old cars.
Good list of cars to buy new, but why did you exclude the Hyundai Sonata--which some people not only feel is the tops now in the midsize class, but which is made right here in the usa right down to the engine? Plus it looks a little like an updated Intrepid, imho....
Or, since this is a GM thread, what about the Buick Regal. That's a pretty sharp car, imho....although almost as expensive loaded as your PA was back in the day...
I think mine stickered for close to $40K when it was brand new. I think the PA Ultra started around $36,800, but stuff like the sunroof, HUD, etc was still optional. I paid $7500 for mine. With tax, title, tag transfer, and all that other junk it came out to around $8133 I think. Sometimes I feel like I paid too much for a car that was 10 years old, but it only had 56,372 miles on it when I bought it. And I've put a bit over 10,000 mostly trouble free miles on it, so I guess if there was anything wrong with the car, it would've reared its ugly head by now. I just checked it on the KBB website, and even now, a year later, with 66,666 miles on it, it's still showing a KBB retail value of $7835. So I guess I did pretty well, after all.
As for the Hyundai Sonata? For some reason, my mind completely blocked that one out. I really don't care for the styling, but who knows...it might grow on me with time. Seems like a pretty impressive car otherwise, though. The new Regal seems pretty nice too, but just seems kind of expensive, for what you get.
I never liked the way my dad's Park Ave drove. It was good, but slightly unstable at freeway maneuvers due to its front weight bias and slow steering. It also bounced twice as much over bad roads as the Crown Vic. Something about front weight and undersized struts I think - it just hits hard in the front on a big bump and the rebound in the rear is a bit too light (slow response in the front, fast in the rear - creates a bit of a see-sawing motion on expansion joints) My son gets car sick in the Park Ave but not in the Crown Vic.
Most large FWD cars do this - it's minor but spoils the "smooth" aspect of what you'd expect of a large luxury car. By comparison, a typical Towncar that most people are used to riding in as a limo, is solid and seamless. Used, they cost very little, and the 10-20% that aren't used in fleets are real gems if you can find one for sale. (most people hold onto them nearly forever)
Cadillac does make a couple of large cars like this and the rebadged Holden cars that are coming (again) in a year or two are also RWD. I'd love to see GM take a bold move and drop FWD entirely for its large vehicles. I think it would increase sales greatly.
If you are referring to a Panther the only engine since 1992 is the 4.6 Modular V8 (with the sole exception of the 03/04 Marauder). If you are looking for one brand new you may be out of luck. The Crown Vic hasn't been sold at retail for a few years now and the MGM and LTC are just about at the end of the line. I'm not sure if any dealers even stock them at this point. If you want a Panther the only way is used, IMO. You would have no problem picking up a low mileage MGM 1 year old for under 20.
As for high-milers I have been in LTC taxis with 450K miles on the odometer.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
While it was a nice car 15+ years ago, I don't want one now. Had a chance to buy a loaded late 90's GM a while back with low miles on it cheap (estate sale). I drove it and the fondness I remembered was long gone. You couldn't give me one today.
But really, sure looks light years better than any previous GM minivan. Of course, Buick in that market has cachet and never lost it.
Oh - you're right - it is the 4.6 V8 in mine.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=n&car_id=288204142
That's a crazy savings off of retail. Basic Accord or Marquis for 23K. If you want a car to get around in and don't care so much about squeezing MPG to the limits, this makes you do a double-take. That's a legitimate $25K out the door for most of the U.S. It's the same reason that people love SUVs - lots of real estate for the money. GM could learn a thing from their playbook. Just make a big and inexpensive full size RWD car and run it for 20 years.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=288735165
Nobody's mistaking that for a cop car. Certified, used, and 18K a year old.(I searched for under 20K miles and red or blue - ex rentals are 15K on average)
As much as I respect the imports, having had more imports than domestics in my lifetime, domestic brands offer a lot of car for the money a year or two old. But for $23K, I'd probably buy new.
I'd imagine a Grand Marquis or Crown Vic would get a bit worse than my Park Ave, but at least it wouldn't need premium fuel, so the actual cost might be about the same.
One of my friends has a 2004 Crown Vic LX that he bought from CarMax back in June of '04, with just under 10,000 miles. I can't remember what he paid now, though...it was either $15,995 or $16,995, plus tax et al. I think he has around 190,000 miles on it and it's still running pretty well. Before that he had a 1995 Grand Marquis GS, which I think made it to around 175,000 miles, and while it still had some life left in it, it was getting tired.
Meanwhile, GM also used the event to announce it will add 1,000 engineering and development jobs in the state during the next two years "to significantly expand its vehicle electrification expertise and lead in the development of electric vehicles from hybrids to electric vehicles with extended-range capability, like the Chevrolet Volt."
First Production Chevrolet Volts Roll Off Line Today (AutoObserver)
My Grandfather with his 04 gets around 18.5 according to the digital dash display. That is mostly city and he drives pretty normal (5-10 over and a little heavy on the pedal from a stop).
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Around $500 a year, or about $42 more a month to run. Given the higher depreciation (lower cost to buy certified), though, that's not an issue. It'll take 8 years just to break even. Gas just isn't a real factor unless you commute large distances.
I've heard that if the supercharger fails, the car's still driveable, but just acts more or less like a normal 3800. I wonder if that's true? Not something that I want to find out first-hand, but if it's true, it's nice to know that if the supercharger blows, it's not a critical, must-repair item.
The biggest difference is a supercharger is belt driven and a turbocharger is exhaust driven.
Then their are lots of differences in power delivery and efficiency etc.
I don't know much about it, but I remember my mechanic ended up ordering it, ironically enough, from the Cadillac dealer where I bought my Buick! So, who knows? It might have been cheaper to just take it to the dealer!
A supercharger is driven by a belt, whereas a turbocharger runs off of the exhaust pressure. I think in theory a supercharger will react more quickly to increased power demands than a turbo will, but with my Park Ave, I still detect a little lag. I think superchargers are supposed to be simpler than a turbocharger, and cheaper to fix when they break. But, I dunno. I remember hearing that if the supercharger in a 3800 goes bad, it's about $1000 to repair. And that was awhile ago...I dunno what they'd cost nowadays.
I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same as the motor oil. A turbocharger uses motor oil from the engine for lubrication. I'm guessing, the supercharger on the 3800 just has it's own reservoir for motor oil so oil from the engine doesn't get rerouted through the supercharger.
I imagine a turbo is much harder on motor oil vs a supercharger, as they run much hotter since they have exhaust flowing through them, plus the the turbo impeller spins at insane rpm levels compared to a supercharger too.
The issue with the lag in the Buick is the transmission. It has a very soft and sluggish torque converter that's mated to a silly tall set of gears.
Same thing. Blower = supercharger.
Someone I worked with a few years ago told me the car would be fine with the supercharger belt cut away and the failed sc left in place. The twin scrolls don't block much flowpath. He claimed to know someone who was driving around like that.
I have been running an extra 500 rpms on the interstate for 16k miles since the 3-4 upshift spline got stripped so I will always keep watch on the sc oil.
I guess that's another thing that's good to know...if I ever lose 4th gear, I can still get by for awhile! I forget what axle ratio my Park Ave has...2.94:1 or something like that? So even in 3rd gear (1:1 ratio), it wouldn't be that bad. I had an '89 Gran Fury copcar that had a 2.94:1 axle, and only a 3-speed automatic, with no overdrive, so I guess it wouldn't scream any worse than that thing did at highway speeds. And that Gran Fury could still break 20 on the highway, so I'd like to think the Park Ave, with 1.4 liters less displacement, could do a bit better.
I lost OD in my 89 Grand Marq around 100K (due to the infamous throttle valve bushing that breaks and causes tranny death if you drive it too long) and I drove it for quite a while. I traded it in and the service manager bought it, rebuilt the tranny and put well over another 100K on it.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
It is obvious that beginning in July, GM has started an aggressive channel stuffing program whereby it offload tens of thousands of cars (over 110,000 since July) on dealer lots, hoping these will get sold somehow, at some price, all the while dealers enjoy taxpayer subsidized floorplan leases which allows them to hold nearly infinite inventory. If and when the liquidation event takes place who cares? After all the company is now public and has managed to massage it artificial sales numbers sufficiently to fool investors that there is actual end demand for its cars.
The lurking disease lies awaiting a strike! Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock....
Knock yourself out loyalists! Since I was a long-time customer, I am sensitive to the unbalance. The great thing is that buying American DOES NOT mean buying GM anymore.
What a Relief!
Regards,
OW
I don't think I've ever bought two vehicles from the same manufacturer back to back (possibly Ford, we had a Probe, Villager, Contour, but we also had a Neon and Saturn in the mix). I don't feel that way about any product or company. I would have missed out on some great vehicles if I only would have bought Fords my whole life. I've also learned more about what I like and dislike by owning a variety of vehicles from different manufacturers. I appreciate them all in one way or another, well except my GM vehicles, I was generally happy when I got rid of them.
Uh oh. I just went to check his web site to see what the one new car was and the web site is gone. Last I looked the dealership was still there with maybe 20 used cars but he was on the hit list. Maybe he's gone.
Go Government Motors! I just love subsidizing those Volts! :mad:
Regards,
OW
My local Chevy dealer lot is full so you can't even park! Typical GM presentation skills at their worst!
New revamped dealers just in my immediate area:
Mercedes 2 years old - high end refurb
Honda - Brand new with BMW-like waiting rooms with leather lounge chairs and 60" LED TY with coffee bar. Hard to get into the show room on Saturday.
Lexus - Rebuilt 2009
BMW - Demolished and rebuild in progress.
Old and needing desperate repair:
Toyota - Not that great - but better than Buick/GMC
Buick/GMC - dilapidated as well as their finance manager, service and presentation capability
Chevy - at least 50 year old design so far gone its pathetic!
Hyundai - Equal to Chevy but on 3 more acres for ease of access but could use a new showroom now! Huge inventory of 2011 Sonatas at the moment.
No Caddy dealer within 20 miles of the BMW/Lexus/Merc dealers!!!!!!!
Keep trying, GM...miles to go before they sleep!
Regards,
OW
My wife and I both drive late model GM vehicles (3 years old and 5 years old
respectively) and between the 2 of us have not had one warranty related issue
with either one. I am an extremely satisfied customer who has owned and
driven (through my business) other manufacturers including Nissan, Ford,
Acura and Mazda. I consider the experience with the GM vehicles equal to
or better than the others.
It appears GM has been and continues to manufacture increasingly better
and more reliable product every year. Yes they have had and continue to
have isolated problems with certain systems on certain vehicles as have
every single other brand. Just check out the consumer ratings on Edmunds.
There are tons of complaints about other Manufacturers, while most
of Gm's offerings get hight ratings. I find that the consumer ratings are
generally higher than the "expert" ratings.
As a driver of a Chevy Truck, I personally would never consider buying a
Toyota truck due to the almost guaranteed rusting out of their frames
within 5-10 years. Chevrolet advertises that based on registration numbers,
Chevy trucks are the longest lasting over the last 30 years. I know that a
large number of Toyota Tacomas were crushed and recycled in that time
due to the fact that their rusted frames made them unsafe to drive, and
Toyota would rather buy them back at over KBB value than face the
possiblity of lawsluits down the road
The issue is that GMs cars had been generally inferior for a long time, perhaps excluding the bigger "boats". You have a lot of "shafted" people and you can't expect customers who felt they have been cheated to stay quiet. GM is certainly improving their cars a lot, but they have a long way to go.
Another issue is that many people feel that not allowing the market to take its course (vs. the bailouts) is a mistake. We don't know how much better Ford would be doing, or who would have bought GM's better assets and vehicle lines, if GM had been allowed to fail naturally. For all we know, we would have had a leaner and stronger US auto industry than we do today. We might also have had less future risk of UAW militancy threatening the industry.
So much of the dislike of GM is understandable, and that is not to disagree that other makes (IMHO Toyota in particular) deserve a bunch of "bashing" as well.
We do have a couple of Buick - GMC dealers and there's a Caddy dealer 20 miles up. The Chevy place that may have gone under used to sell Caddy as well.
My wife and I also have GM vehicles of the same vintage (2007 Cadillac DTS Performance and 2005 Buick LaCrosse CXL) and neither of them have had a warranty-related issue as well.
Great to see how well your Chevy truck has treated you. I too would consider Chervrolet or GMC if I were in the market for a truck. My neighbor, who is a tradesman, has both a GMC truck and full-sized van.
Like it or not, letting GM die off would have likely crippled the domestic industry. I like foreign cars as much as the next person here, but if we had to spend money to save jobs here versus spending it on other things, it's by far the lesser of the evils.(compare it to the new Health Care fiasco - at least saving GM accomplished something)