I'd not be terribly hard on them, though. Even Porsche won't fix their current boxer engine design after fifteen years. (intermediate shaft would fail - destroying the entire engine due to spun bearings and an interference design), so it happens to every company.
Note - if you wondered my Boxsters are so inexpensive used, this is the reason. Virtually no stock engine will last over 100K without needing a complete rebuild due to the original design of the intermediate shaft bearings being junk. Most vehicles are are subject to wear and temperature extremes, though, that make it far worse than in a test lab - so 30-50K and your engine is junk is unfortunately all too common, especially if you drive a fair amount of city miles. (the engine won't properly lubricate the bearings at under about 3K rpm and they are only rated for 100K miles under laboratory conditions)
Anyways...
What's important is how they handle it. Toyota and Porsche seem to have taken the route of denial and obfuscation while GM and most of the rest at least own up to their mistakes more often than not.
As a result, I actually rate GM higher than Toyota. As fun as Porsche is to drive, it's just a non-issue. (can't afford a 911 or Panamera, anything with a Boxer type engine in it is iffy at best)
GM has adopted our Govt's ability to take the high road and paint a rosy picture on a grim situation..One only has to look at all the bleeding govt owned ventures that appear with a "smiling face", and the big solution is to throw more money at it for everything is always underfunded..When and if the Govt is out of GM then the facts will surface, another "scam", and this stock offering will attract the Asian investors namely China..
GM lacks any excitement factor, no "car guys", 2 ton Camaros that aren't selling too well, overpriced Cadillacs, trucks still rule the bottom line, Buick has been Chinaized, and the Chevy line of Impala/Malibu is antiquated..The Cruze may be a winner, Volt is just a hyped "green bean" that will be hard-pressed to sell w/o govt funded taxpayer perks..How about Chrysler/Fiat/Govt/UAW and the upcoming Fiat "500" box build in Mexico, the car has been around 50 yrs..Ford is looking better all the time..
My 2010 Mustang GT w/track pkg, paid $23.5k, used, 2760mi, baragain, a great ride for my 77 yr old body, reminds me of the 50's., loud and brash..My GM ride is a 2006 S/C Grand Prix, loud, was another great buy-half price 40 months ago with 4300 mi..
Cars last forever in Florida and I will never ever buy another GM car for the Govt takeover and the screwing of the investors at the time doesn't bode well with me..
"GM earlier this month said the common stock would sell for $26 to $29 per share and preferred shares would go for $50 each. But demand for the shares is now causing the automaker to rethink the pricing, although no decision has been made, said the person, who asked not to be identified because they are not authorized to speak publicly on the issue.
Scott Sweet, senior managing partner of the research firm IPO Boutique, said investment bankers have told him the final price for the common shares will likely be $30 to $30.50 when it is announced on Wednesday after stock markets close."
The Wall St. Journal says the price now is going to be between $32 and $33. The Journal also has this tidbit in the blurb:
"China, with the world's biggest and fastest-growing auto market, is now a key source of strength for GM and has been central in its pitch to investors for the IPO. GM is now the top-selling foreign brand in China, having overtaken Volkswagen AG. This year, for the first time, GM is selling more vehicles in China than in the U.S."
A logical choice. Let's hope that the Volt fares better than three other GM "Cars of the Future" - the 1960 Corvair, 1971 Vega and 1980 Citation - that also claimed the award.
...until they bring back the Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Lincoln Town Car - hopefully in a much more updated form. Their lineup is a mish-mash of trucks, SUVs, cross-overs, and puny V-6 or less cars. The only bright spot is the Mustang and I never was really a fan of it anyway. Even Chrysler has vehicles I find infinitely more desirable than what's offered by the blue oval.
It will be interesting to see how these Volts do, if/when introduced into markets such as in ND, SD, Minneapolis, Green Bay. How far will the Volt go on an electric charge on a January day when high temperature is 5 below zero.
Town Car only logical purpose was limo service to airports.
GM still needs to catch up to Ford with regard to quality and innovation. Ford has had superior vision, direction, management compared to GM, due to leadership of Mullally. Would guess that college professors writing business books will use GM failures as examples of how not to run a business.
A logical choice. Let's hope that the Volt fares better than three other GM "Cars of the Future" - the 1960 Corvair, 1971 Vega and 1980 Citation - that also claimed the award.
My thoughts exactly xrunner, extended very cold weather performance has not be talked about enough. Wonder how it would do around here in mid-January through mid-March with "The Hawk" blowing on it all day / night. Batteries like neither extreme hot NOR cold :sick: . I say bring 10 or 20 to the windy city and have a go. I'm also still curious of the power grid & people's electricity bills.
I'm not sure how a vehicle can be COTY when it's only available in very limited markets and is really a flash in the pan. Personally, the MT COTY & TOTY got to the point of being pointless years ago.
I highlighted the Corvair, Vega and Citation because they all featured drivetrains and features that were unique for American cars at that time, but later turned out to have some serious problems.
The 1977 Caprice was an excellent car, and definitely deserved to win the award. But it really wasn't all that "new" in concept. It didn't feature any new drivetrains or radical features. It was simply a very well-engineered and designed take on a traditional American car.
The 1977 Caprice was an EXCELLENT car! It was one of the times Motor Trend gave the COTY award to a truly deserving car!
I was thinking the same thing.
The Vega and the Citation were the real dogs. The Corvair was a product of very short sighted cheapness. By the time they fixed that (66?) it was a great car but by then they'd lost the marketing war. That sort of experience was something GM repeated too often (kind of like the Fiero).
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I am very angry with the way the GM Mastercard is treating my father. He buys a new car about every 10 years and has been using the HSBC GM Mastercard to earn points toward buying his next new car. After building up credits over $3,000 now they start deducting because it's been over 7 years. he doesn't want a new car right now and can't decide what kind to get next because my mother has trouble getting her feet in and out of the two Buick Century cars he now has. he is thinking of getting a longer car so her legs will clear the door opening better or maybe he'll need a mini van in order to utilize a special handicap seat. (That's my idea, not his) In any case, he's not ready for a new car and thinks it's wrong that they now deduct money for no reason. He knows if he get's angry and cancels the card, they got away with the $3,00 or so that he's earned and will have made out well for treating him so badly. A secretary at the earning expiration office even hung up on his today and that's why I'm hitting the internet. I am so upset. Because he is 90 years old, I think they don't care much about him because although he's been a good GM customer for many years, they figure he'll be dead some year soon and they don't need him as a future customer. They sure as heck won't get my business. He even felt like it was all a gyp if he was able to still use a Century like he used to because although he bought one in 99 and one in 2001, if you look at the earning in points toward a car, the cost of the Century has risen higher than even the points he earned. If you ask why, they say it's the cost of the improvements, but he doesn't like the so-called "improvements" and thinks they 're just doo-dads and the money is really going to the CEO salaries and keepjng up the pensions, which really don't mean much to the person driving the car off the lot. Anyway, may dad said the lady on the phone told him they sent a letter about how they were going to be deducting money if he didn't start buying a car, but he says he never got the letter, and I can tell you, he is sincerely in shock over all this and he is not a good enough actor to be this upset. I just can't believe the lady hung up on him. I think they want him to just drop the card. I am going to try to push him to get a CR-V, but I know he will be upset that GM gets to keep his money and that he wanted all those years using the HSBC GM Mastercard. I still don't think we are ready for a new car anyway because you can't tell if my mother is going to be in a wheelchair soon or if we just need more straight-out leg room for her in the front. I hate how they are pressuring my dad with losing money if he doesn't buy a car now. I am so mad at GM, at Mastercard and at the customer service lady in the Earnings Expirations Department. I feel that they think my dad is garbage and if he quits them and go away, they do make out better financially anyway. :mad:
...our neighbors bought a brand-new Chevrolet Cruze LT. It's the first one I've seen on the roads in Harrisburg. They let me drive it around the neighborhood last week, and I must say that I was impressed. It had a very solid feel, and struck me as a quantum leap over the Cobalt.
...our neighbors bought a brand-new Chevrolet Cruze LT. It's the first one I've seen on the roads in Harrisburg. They let me drive it around the neighborhood last week, and I must say that I was impressed. It had a very solid feel, and struck me as a quantum leap over the Cobalt.
I've seen a couple on the road so far. It certainly looks (IMHO) a lot better than the Cobalt, too.
Well the GM bashers will probably be stifled for a while.
The Volt is Car of the Year.
GM's profit will be around $4 Billion this year.
Their IPO will bring in enough money to pay back most of what the government is owed.
Their profitablity in coming years should be excellent because of the fact that the US auto fleet is very old by historic standards...over ten years old on average; and due to the fact that while in recent years consumers spent an average 4% of GDP on new car purchases, it has fallen to 2.3%. These vehicles must be replaced. Their excellent products and much lower labor costs will almost certainly ensure that GM will return a profit in the years to come after 5 years of losses and the government will be paid back.
I also read recently the transaction prices of GM vehicles have increased around $3000 per vehicle compared to a few years ago. People are more willing to buy GM - Ford - Chrysler, especially in light of their continually improving products and reliabiltiy.
Well the GM bashers will probably be stifled for a while.
Nah, I still see plenty to bash. Ford is the better run company and currently is more profitable. Last I've read, GM is still losing market share.
GM's profit potential better be good, considering the balance sheet has been cleaned up. Still issues with pension obligations and we all know the UAW won't behave forever. They'll get wind of the current $3k profit per car and they will be waiting for contract negotiations.
That's my biggest concern being a Ford stock holder. I'm not going to mess with GM stock, I'm going to stick with Ford. But when the labor contracts expire, I'll be a bit concerned about what will happen.
People are more willing to buy GM - Ford - Chrysler, especially in light of their continually improving products and reliabiltiy.
No question about that. Just a few years ago neither Ford, GM, or Chrysler had a car I would remotely consider. There are a few I'd consider today. Hopefully the reliability and build quality continues to improve as my 07 Expedition and my wife's 07 Grand Prix have had various levels of build quality/reliability issues.
The idea of proclaiming a car yet to be released for general public sale as a "Car of the Year", regardless who the manufacturer happens to be, seems to be (at least to me) a bit premature.
I'm not knocking either GM or the Volt, but it makes me wonder if the Chrysler Airflow, Tucker or Ford Edsel would have also been a "Car of the Year"... all failed in the actual marketplace, yet all had technical advances ahead of their time....
Well, I'd LOVED to be proved wrong..except, they went bankrupt, it took until 2008 for them to produce any car worth even looking at and outside of their trucks, they were grossly unprofitable and they fell on taxpayers to get them where they are today.
I'm not knocking either GM or the Volt, but it makes me wonder if the Chrysler Airflow, Tucker or Ford Edsel would have also been a "Car of the Year"... all failed in the actual marketplace, yet all had technical advances ahead of their time....
Not only that, wasn't Mr. Obama "Man of the Year" for a short stretch??
I'll yield to the IPO Glitz for now...Have Fun GM...but if I were You, I'd completely defer the IPO for getting back to work Real Soon! The Competition is Deadly Out There!
While your taking a breather, the comp is blowing past you!!!!!!
2011 Chevrolet Volt 2010 Ford Fusion 2009 Nissan GT-R 2008 Cadillac CTS 2007 Toyota Camry 2006 Honda Civic 2005 Chrysler 300 2004 Toyota Prius 2003 Infiniti G35 2002 Ford Thunderbird 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser 2000 Lincoln LS 1999 Chrysler 300M 1998 Chevrolet Corvette 1997 Chevrolet Malibu 1996 Dodge Caravan 1995 Chrysler Cirrus 1994 Ford Mustang 1993 Ford Probe GT 1992 Cadillac Seville Touring Sedan 1991 Chevrolet Caprice Classic LTZ 1990 Lincoln Town Car 1989 Ford Thunderbird SC 1988 Pontiac Grand Prix 1987 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe 1986 Ford Taurus LX 1985 Volkswagen GTI (eligible due to it being built in VW's now-defunct Pennsylvania plant) 1984 Chevrolet Corvette 1983 AMC / Renault Alliance 1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 1981 Chrysler K Cars, Dodge Aries and Plymouth Reliant 1980 Chevrolet Citation 1979 Buick Riviera S 1978 Chrysler, Dodge Omni and Plymouth Horizon 1977 Chevrolet Caprice 1976 Chrysler, Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volare 1975 Chevrolet Monza 2+2 1974 Ford Mustang II 1973 Chevrolet Monte Carlo 1972 Citroën SM (an imported vehicle that was selected overall "Car of the Year") 1971 Chevrolet Vega 1970 Ford Torino 1969 Plymouth Road Runner 1968 Pontiac GTO 1967 Mercury Cougar 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado 1965 Pontiac Motor Division 1964 Ford Motor Company (not for the Mustang) 1963 American Motors (AMC) Rambler (all models: American, Classic, and Ambassador) 1962 Buick Special 1961 Pontiac Tempest 1960 Chevrolet Corvair 1959 Pontiac Motor Division 1958 Ford Thunderbird 1957 Chrysler Corporation (all makes: Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler, and Imperial) 1956 Ford Motor Company 1955 Chevrolet Motor Division 1954 No award 1953 No award 1952 Cadillac Motor Division 1951 Chrysler Corporation 1950 No award 1949 Cadillac Motor Division
I was just talking to someone about that, in regards to their IPO which is going well today. I wonder how many of the investors are questioning the conditions surrounding that profit. What I specifically mean is that around 40% of GM's sales were to fleet customers. Around - I don't know the exact number. But with many of those purchses probably having gone to the government, was the negotiating not quite so tough this year? In the government run GM, wanting to make GM look good, did the government buy vehicles from itself at a higher price then typical? We have no real detail if those nice black Suburbans the feds like sold at MSRP.
I can't wait to see what the real profits look like once GM is independent again, and they have to make real sales in a real market. That $4B profit is like saying you made good $ and got a promotion last year at your dad's firm.
Any of us could run a large business if we got the support GM has and still is geting!
I had a used (previously owned) 77 Caprice Classic Station Wagon and would agree it was an excellent design. Functionality was great, having bench seat in front and bench type in middle row. That middle row seat would fold flat and then you had a totally flat surface to haul stuff, such as 4x8 plywoods, drywall, etc. Handling was pretty decent for that size car.
I had quality/reliability issues. The engine had recalls for camshaft reliability. Had to have a Chevy dealer put in new cam and service mgr got factory to pick up half the cost even though I was not original owner.
Also, the Cruise failed and had a mind of its own. Even when not engaged, the car would start accelerating on its own. Did not stay with that situation for too long. I simply went under hood and disconnected it.
The 4-door sedans and station wagons from 77 to about 87 were very popular. The styling was good.
Too bad GM did not consider doing an updated rwd sedan/station wagon using the 77-87 Caprice as basis.
My dad had a '79 Caprice Classic wagon when I was a kid. It was a POC. I remember it having around 5k miles on it when it was leaving us stranded as often as it would get us back home. That was my dad's last GM product.
The last time I used the GM card earnings was on a 2002 Olds Intrigue GLS where I used up $1,719.76..My current earnings balance is $2965, and they are the taking away approx $30.00@mo..Since I will never buy another GM car it really doesn't matter to me..I am glad you did the post for it reminded me that I should dump the card for political reasons..
By the way the 2002 Intrigue did 120k miles from 11/30/02 to 6/30/06, all Florida driving, without any real problems..Had 3 Intrigues, the first one 1998 GLS was repurchased by GM around 26k miles, and bought a 1999 GLS which did 75k miles with a few hitches, but it was a fun car, had SLP catback exhaust systems on all 3..My 2006 Pontiac GPGT S/C has an SLP exhaust system..They are great systems for it opens up the pipe diameter to 2 1/2 " and eliminates the intermediate muffler..
Hope your parents are able to use the card rebate, and get along with enjoying life..I figure that GM's cars are overpriced initally, so big discounts are the order of the day..One of the last models I should have bought under the old rule was the Trailblazer SS, for they were discounting them up to $14k, and are in demand now..
My first new car was a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic and it was the first of many new GM cars I purchased. It was black with a gray cloth interior. It was something of an oddball because it came with a 4.3 litre V-6 versus the 305 cid V-8. I never had any problems with it and it delivered phenomenal fuel economy for such a big car. It wasn't very fast off the line at stoplights, but performed excellently at cruising speeds. Many friends and family had these cars and they served them faithfully.
My best friend had a 1978 Chevrolet Impala that took him to 100K+ miles with absolutely no trouble. His neighbor had an equally reliable 1977 Impala. Another friend had a beautiful 1982 Caprice Classic he bought new! Another friend had a 1979 Caprice and another a 1977 Caprice. My Grandpop had both a 1980 Impala and a 1989 Caprice Classic LS Brougham. Heck, the Philadelphia Police Department bought a whole fleet of 1978 Impalas!
The Volt is Car of the Year. Again, the car isn't available 50-state wide (which really breaks with MT's tradition of the vehicle being fully available to all the public, just not those in certain areas), so until that is the case...plus being voted COTY by a magazine really doesn't mean anything.
Their IPO will bring in enough money to pay back most of what the government is owed. Subjective. This is might-maybe-possibly...
These vehicles must be replaced. Their excellent products and much lower labor costs will almost certainly ensure that GM will return a profit in the years to come after 5 years of losses and the government will be paid back.
While vehicles may need to be replaced, most aren't due to affordability, i.e. millions are still un- & under-employed and/or in debt from living way beyond their means via the plastic lifestyle. But even if potential buyers weren't, why should they buy a GM product when there are perhaps better products out there? Again, subjective reasoning at best.
Not bashing but not dreaming either. I'll stick with my Ford stocks / returns, this IPO is too euphoric / soon to judge. Let's see the Novemeber sales numbers shortly and continued growth / downturns.
My first new car was a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic and it was the first of many new GM cars I purchased. It was black with a gray cloth interior. It was something of an oddball because it came with a 4.3 litre V-6
I actually have fond memories of my grandpa's 87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS. It was a nice car. He lived in FL, it was white and he had the windows tinted fairly dark, it looked nice. I actually liked it better than the '92 Roadmaster he replaced it with. Though the RM had more bells and whistles, I never warmed up to the styling, and the TBI 350 was a unimpressive and the dynaride suspension was way to soft for my tastes. (I liked how the 305 sounded when the secondaries opened up).
Grandpa's GM full size cars in the 80's to early 90's were decently reliable. They all had a an issue here or there, but nothing to bad.
My parents had a 1982 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale Brougham, which was a very nice and reliable car.
Once GM hit the downsizing era, the reliability of your vehicle really depended on which engine and transmission you got. This was a rude awakening for many people.
In 1970, on the other hand, there really wasn't a stinker in the GM lineup. Even through the first fuel crunch, the only real dud was the Vega. But after GM started hastily downsizing engines and transmissions, the trouble began. The results were wildly uneven.
Their IPO will bring in enough money to pay back most of what the government is owed.
Subjective. This is might-maybe-possibly...
Actually, even at the higher price being offered ($32-33/share), GM will still have approx. 33% government ownership after the IPO. Treasury will recover no more than $13.6 billion from the IPO.
For complete payback after the IPO, the Treasury will need to get an additional $27.7 billion to break even. That info is according to an article from the Detroit Free Press...
Too bad GM did not consider doing an updated rwd sedan/station wagon using the 77-87 Caprice as basis.
They did try this twice. First with the Roadmaster and now with the STS. The issue of course, is that you CAN get that car you always wished GM would build. It's just now a Cadillac and priced accordingly. These don't sell well as a rule, so while you can get a STS, it's going to be merged with the DTS into probably yet another attempt at competing with the Euro-barges instead of trying to be something decent and affordable.
I believe the stock has to get to somewhere in the 50's for the gov to break even. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not optimistic. Right now we're in the "have to make sure the IPO insiders make some money" phase. It may continue up some more, but then the reality of the UAW is going to hit and it will probably pull back some. I'm not sure Detroit will ever be able to compete long term with the Asians with the UAW on its back, unless perhaps they either offshore most of their product or move their plants into right to work states. The latter is probably too expensive to pull off. The new UAW president seems very old school union and aggressive to me, so I think it may get uglier sooner than later. It will also likely pull Ford down too unless they start expanding in Mexico. You also have to be careful that if the stock stays strong, GM and Ford may be tempted to issue more stock diluting shareholders. I'm taking a pass on GM stock, but I won't be unhappy if I'm wrong on this because the US needs a stronger industrial base.
The new UAW president seems very old school union and aggressive to me, so I think it may get uglier sooner than later. It will also likely pull Ford down too unless they start expanding in Mexico.
We know Mulally is very smart. And he also had union issues at Boeing. If I were him I would already have a contingency plan B ready to go if the union starts causing a lot of problems. Like being ready to move a pile of production out of the country.
hatchback are built at Ford's Cuautitlan, Mexico plant. Is this a UAW-represented final production plant? It will be interesting to watch and see how Mulally pacifies the union members. This new Fiesta is plenty stocked with great engineering and it is low-priced. I am actually looking at a blue 5-speed sedan at Gallagher Ford here in Elko. It's price with just a few options, including a single-CD player, 29 mpg in the city and 37 mpg on the highway, 5-speed stick? Only $13,990 with $500 Ford cash back to the consumer right now.
The hatchback Fiesta's with their automatic tranny's are $16,000-$18,000-$20,000. If a person knows how to drive a stick you can really save. That price is really appealing, and reviews on this new European-inspired design from Ford are really good.
I believe the stock has to get to somewhere in the 50's for the gov to break even.
Don't forget that what you refer to "break even" is only on the last, and yes the biggest, of several above-and-beyond grants, loans, tax breaks that Detroit got in the 1-2 years before the BIG bailout. If you consider everything that Old GM got during their final 2 years it was at least another $25B.
And also consider all the secondary tax losses GM has caused the tax-payers. They caused a whole lot of people they owed money to, to claim losses on their taxes and lost income, that kept down tax revenues. SO GM's cost to the taxpayer is far beyond their the last Big bailout.
Seems if one wants a proper wagon versus a cross-over or SUV, one must now go to the upscale brands - Volvo, Mercedes, etc. Does BMW offer something like a 5-Series wagon? Funny, back in the day, Ford was the Wagonmaster.
The others still make them , though they're kind of hidden. Subaru makes one. Honda's Fit and their CRV qualifies as one as well. Jeep also makes one, though they bill it as a SUV, it's really a Jeep looking wagon. Toyota has the Matrix, still.
But, you're right about GM and Ford pretty much offering nothing that's a wagon any more.
I don't think BMW offers a wagon in the US anymore. They do offer a 5 series gran turismo that is a goofy looking sedan/hatch back that is sort of wagon like. Kind of like the Honda Accord Crosstour that is equally goofy IMO. VW had the jetta sportwagon, but with the redesign, I haven't heard anything about a wagon version.
The Subaru Outback is basically a wagon and Volvo still offers a V50 wagon. Minivans and SUVs have all but killed the wagon market.
I believe Ford will be bringing the C-Max which is a cool looking small wagon to the US in a year or two I believe.
Comments
Note - if you wondered my Boxsters are so inexpensive used, this is the reason. Virtually no stock engine will last over 100K without needing a complete rebuild due to the original design of the intermediate shaft bearings being junk. Most vehicles are are subject to wear and temperature extremes, though, that make it far worse than in a test lab - so 30-50K and your engine is junk is unfortunately all too common, especially if you drive a fair amount of city miles. (the engine won't properly lubricate the bearings at under about 3K rpm and they are only rated for 100K miles under laboratory conditions)
Anyways...
What's important is how they handle it. Toyota and Porsche seem to have taken the route of denial and obfuscation while GM and most of the rest at least own up to their mistakes more often than not.
As a result, I actually rate GM higher than Toyota. As fun as Porsche is to drive, it's just a non-issue. (can't afford a 911 or Panamera, anything with a Boxer type engine in it is iffy at best)
GM lacks any excitement factor, no "car guys", 2 ton Camaros that aren't selling too well, overpriced Cadillacs, trucks still rule the bottom line, Buick has been Chinaized, and the Chevy line of Impala/Malibu is antiquated..The Cruze may be a winner, Volt is just a hyped "green bean" that will be hard-pressed to sell w/o govt funded taxpayer perks..How about Chrysler/Fiat/Govt/UAW and the upcoming Fiat "500" box build in Mexico, the car has been around 50 yrs..Ford is looking better all the time..
My 2010 Mustang GT w/track pkg, paid $23.5k, used, 2760mi, baragain, a great ride for my 77 yr old body, reminds me of the 50's., loud and brash..My GM ride is a 2006 S/C Grand Prix, loud, was another great buy-half price 40 months ago with 4300 mi..
Cars last forever in Florida and I will never ever buy another GM car for the Govt takeover and the screwing of the investors at the time doesn't bode well with me..
You say that as if you don't like the Volt dancers that I saw a year ago at the LA Auto show. :P
They'd have to come up with a pretty miraculous car - better than anything in the current stable - to get me to even look.
+1
It started with my college friend's new Vega in '74, it continued with my sister in law's Citation, and it ended with the $60billion bailout.
As far as I'm concerned, GM is just a boat anchor preventing Ford from being even more profitable.
eAssist.
Scott Sweet, senior managing partner of the research firm IPO Boutique, said investment bankers have told him the final price for the common shares will likely be $30 to $30.50 when it is announced on Wednesday after stock markets close."
GM may raise target price range for IPO (MSNBC)
The Wall St. Journal says the price now is going to be between $32 and $33. The Journal also has this tidbit in the blurb:
"China, with the world's biggest and fastest-growing auto market, is now a key source of strength for GM and has been central in its pitch to investors for the IPO. GM is now the top-selling foreign brand in China, having overtaken Volkswagen AG. This year, for the first time, GM is selling more vehicles in China than in the U.S."
GM Raises Sights for IPO (may be a subscriber only link)
That would be my dream come true, however, I would have no problems whatsoever driving a newer TC/Grand Marq.
A Town Car with that new 5.0 they are putting in the Mustang would be pretty sweet too.
Heck, while we are dreaming I would love if they made a modern day RWD Buick Roadmaster with the either of the Camaro's drivetrains as well.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
GM still needs to catch up to Ford with regard to quality and innovation. Ford has had superior vision, direction, management compared to GM, due to leadership of Mullally. Would guess that college professors writing business books will use GM failures as examples of how not to run a business.
The Caprice was COTY in 1977, too. :surprise:
I'm not sure how a vehicle can be COTY when it's only available in very limited markets and is really a flash in the pan. Personally, the MT COTY & TOTY got to the point of being pointless years ago.
The 1977 Caprice was an excellent car, and definitely deserved to win the award. But it really wasn't all that "new" in concept. It didn't feature any new drivetrains or radical features. It was simply a very well-engineered and designed take on a traditional American car.
I was thinking the same thing.
The Vega and the Citation were the real dogs. The Corvair was a product of very short sighted cheapness. By the time they fixed that (66?) it was a great car but by then they'd lost the marketing war. That sort of experience was something GM repeated too often (kind of like the Fiero).
He even felt like it was all a gyp if he was able to still use a Century like he used to because although he bought one in 99 and one in 2001, if you look at the earning in points toward a car, the cost of the Century has risen higher than even the points he earned. If you ask why, they say it's the cost of the improvements, but he doesn't like the so-called "improvements" and thinks they
're just doo-dads and the money is really going to the CEO salaries and keepjng up the pensions, which really don't mean much to the person driving the car off the lot.
Anyway, may dad said the lady on the phone told him they sent a letter about how they were going to be deducting money if he didn't start buying a car, but he says he never got the letter, and I can tell you, he is sincerely in shock over all this and he is not a good enough actor to be this upset. I just can't believe the lady hung up on him. I think they want him to just drop the card.
I am going to try to push him to get a CR-V, but I know he will be upset that GM gets to keep his money and that he wanted all those years using the HSBC GM Mastercard.
I still don't think we are ready for a new car anyway because you can't tell if my mother is going to be in a wheelchair soon or if we just need more straight-out leg room for her in the front. I hate how they are pressuring my dad with losing money if he doesn't buy a car now.
I am so mad at GM, at Mastercard and at the customer service lady in the Earnings Expirations Department. I feel that they think my dad is garbage and if he quits them and go away, they do make out better financially anyway. :mad:
I've seen a couple on the road so far. It certainly looks (IMHO) a lot better than the Cobalt, too.
They'd have to come up with a pretty miraculous car - better than anything in the current stable - to get me to even look.
Excellent post.
No need to add anything. Just waiting....................................
Regards,
OW
The Volt is Car of the Year.
GM's profit will be around $4 Billion this year.
Their IPO will bring in enough money to pay back most of what the
government is owed.
Their profitablity in coming years should be excellent because of the
fact that the US auto fleet is very old by historic standards...over ten
years old on average; and due to the fact that while in recent years
consumers spent an average 4% of GDP on new car purchases, it has
fallen to 2.3%. These vehicles must be replaced. Their excellent products
and much lower labor costs will almost certainly ensure that GM will return
a profit in the years to come after 5 years of losses and the government will
be paid back.
I also read recently the transaction prices of GM vehicles have increased around
$3000 per vehicle compared to a few years ago. People are more willing to
buy GM - Ford - Chrysler, especially in light of their continually improving
products and reliabiltiy.
Nah, I still see plenty to bash. Ford is the better run company and currently is more profitable. Last I've read, GM is still losing market share.
GM's profit potential better be good, considering the balance sheet has been cleaned up. Still issues with pension obligations and we all know the UAW won't behave forever. They'll get wind of the current $3k profit per car and they will be waiting for contract negotiations.
That's my biggest concern being a Ford stock holder. I'm not going to mess with GM stock, I'm going to stick with Ford. But when the labor contracts expire, I'll be a bit concerned about what will happen.
People are more willing to
buy GM - Ford - Chrysler, especially in light of their continually improving
products and reliabiltiy.
No question about that. Just a few years ago neither Ford, GM, or Chrysler had a car I would remotely consider. There are a few I'd consider today. Hopefully the reliability and build quality continues to improve as my 07 Expedition and my wife's 07 Grand Prix have had various levels of build quality/reliability issues.
The idea of proclaiming a car yet to be released for general public sale as a "Car of the Year", regardless who the manufacturer happens to be, seems to be (at least to me) a bit premature.
I'm not knocking either GM or the Volt, but it makes me wonder if the Chrysler Airflow, Tucker or Ford Edsel would have also been a "Car of the Year"... all failed in the actual marketplace, yet all had technical advances ahead of their time....
Heck, the Renault Alliance was a COTY.
Outside of that, let the bullets fly!
Go Hyundai!
Regards,
OW
Not only that, wasn't Mr. Obama "Man of the Year" for a short stretch??
I'll yield to the IPO Glitz for now...Have Fun GM...but if I were You, I'd completely defer the IPO for getting back to work Real Soon! The Competition is Deadly Out There!
While your taking a breather, the comp is blowing past you!!!!!!
Regards,
OW
They didn't always get it right...
2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Ford Fusion
2009 Nissan GT-R
2008 Cadillac CTS
2007 Toyota Camry
2006 Honda Civic
2005 Chrysler 300
2004 Toyota Prius
2003 Infiniti G35
2002 Ford Thunderbird
2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
2000 Lincoln LS
1999 Chrysler 300M
1998 Chevrolet Corvette
1997 Chevrolet Malibu
1996 Dodge Caravan
1995 Chrysler Cirrus
1994 Ford Mustang
1993 Ford Probe GT
1992 Cadillac Seville Touring Sedan
1991 Chevrolet Caprice Classic LTZ
1990 Lincoln Town Car
1989 Ford Thunderbird SC
1988 Pontiac Grand Prix
1987 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
1986 Ford Taurus LX
1985 Volkswagen GTI (eligible due to it being built in VW's now-defunct Pennsylvania plant)
1984 Chevrolet Corvette
1983 AMC / Renault Alliance
1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
1981 Chrysler K Cars, Dodge Aries and Plymouth Reliant
1980 Chevrolet Citation
1979 Buick Riviera S
1978 Chrysler, Dodge Omni and Plymouth Horizon
1977 Chevrolet Caprice
1976 Chrysler, Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volare
1975 Chevrolet Monza 2+2
1974 Ford Mustang II
1973 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1972 Citroën SM (an imported vehicle that was selected overall "Car of the Year")
1971 Chevrolet Vega
1970 Ford Torino
1969 Plymouth Road Runner
1968 Pontiac GTO
1967 Mercury Cougar
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado
1965 Pontiac Motor Division
1964 Ford Motor Company (not for the Mustang)
1963 American Motors (AMC) Rambler (all models: American, Classic, and Ambassador)
1962 Buick Special
1961 Pontiac Tempest
1960 Chevrolet Corvair
1959 Pontiac Motor Division
1958 Ford Thunderbird
1957 Chrysler Corporation (all makes: Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler, and Imperial)
1956 Ford Motor Company
1955 Chevrolet Motor Division
1954 No award
1953 No award
1952 Cadillac Motor Division
1951 Chrysler Corporation
1950 No award
1949 Cadillac Motor Division
I was just talking to someone about that, in regards to their IPO which is going well today. I wonder how many of the investors are questioning the conditions surrounding that profit. What I specifically mean is that around 40% of GM's sales were to fleet customers. Around - I don't know the exact number. But with many of those purchses probably having gone to the government, was the negotiating not quite so tough this year? In the government run GM, wanting to make GM look good, did the government buy vehicles from itself at a higher price then typical? We have no real detail if those nice black Suburbans the feds like sold at MSRP.
I can't wait to see what the real profits look like once GM is independent again, and they have to make real sales in a real market. That $4B profit is like saying you made good $ and got a promotion last year at your dad's firm.
Any of us could run a large business if we got the support GM has and still is geting!
I had quality/reliability issues. The engine had recalls for camshaft reliability. Had to have a Chevy dealer put in new cam and service mgr got factory to pick up half the cost even though I was not original owner.
Also, the Cruise failed and had a mind of its own. Even when not engaged, the car would start accelerating on its own. Did not stay with that situation for too long. I simply went under hood and disconnected it.
The 4-door sedans and station wagons from 77 to about 87 were very popular. The styling was good.
Too bad GM did not consider doing an updated rwd sedan/station wagon using the 77-87 Caprice as basis.
By the way the 2002 Intrigue did 120k miles from 11/30/02 to 6/30/06, all Florida driving, without any real problems..Had 3 Intrigues, the first one 1998 GLS was repurchased by GM around 26k miles, and bought a 1999 GLS which did 75k miles with a few hitches, but it was a fun car, had SLP catback exhaust systems on all 3..My 2006 Pontiac GPGT S/C has an SLP exhaust system..They are great systems for it opens up the pipe diameter to 2 1/2 " and eliminates the intermediate muffler..
Hope your parents are able to use the card rebate, and get along with enjoying life..I figure that GM's cars are overpriced initally, so big discounts are the order of the day..One of the last models I should have bought under the old rule was the Trailblazer SS, for they were discounting them up to $14k, and are in demand now..
My best friend had a 1978 Chevrolet Impala that took him to 100K+ miles with absolutely no trouble. His neighbor had an equally reliable 1977 Impala. Another friend had a beautiful 1982 Caprice Classic he bought new! Another friend had a 1979 Caprice and another a 1977 Caprice. My Grandpop had both a 1980 Impala and a 1989 Caprice Classic LS Brougham. Heck, the Philadelphia Police Department bought a whole fleet of 1978 Impalas!
1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic
1989 Cadillac Brougham
1994 Cadillac DeVille
2001 Chevrolet Impala
2002 Cadillac Seville STS
2005 Buick LaCrosse CXL
2007 Cadillac DTS Performance
Again, the car isn't available 50-state wide (which really breaks with MT's tradition of the vehicle being fully available to all the public, just not those in certain areas), so until that is the case...plus being voted COTY by a magazine really doesn't mean anything.
Their IPO will bring in enough money to pay back most of what the
government is owed.
Subjective. This is might-maybe-possibly...
These vehicles must be replaced. Their excellent products
and much lower labor costs will almost certainly ensure that GM will return
a profit in the years to come after 5 years of losses and the government will
be paid back.
While vehicles may need to be replaced, most aren't due to affordability, i.e. millions are still un- & under-employed and/or in debt from living way beyond their means via the plastic lifestyle. But even if potential buyers weren't, why should they buy a GM product when there are perhaps better products out there? Again, subjective reasoning at best.
Not bashing but not dreaming either. I'll stick with my Ford stocks / returns, this IPO is too euphoric / soon to judge. Let's see the Novemeber sales numbers shortly and continued growth / downturns.
I actually have fond memories of my grandpa's 87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS. It was a nice car. He lived in FL, it was white and he had the windows tinted fairly dark, it looked nice. I actually liked it better than the '92 Roadmaster he replaced it with. Though the RM had more bells and whistles, I never warmed up to the styling, and the TBI 350 was a unimpressive and the dynaride suspension was way to soft for my tastes. (I liked how the 305 sounded when the secondaries opened up).
Grandpa's GM full size cars in the 80's to early 90's were decently reliable. They all had a an issue here or there, but nothing to bad.
Once GM hit the downsizing era, the reliability of your vehicle really depended on which engine and transmission you got. This was a rude awakening for many people.
In 1970, on the other hand, there really wasn't a stinker in the GM lineup. Even through the first fuel crunch, the only real dud was the Vega. But after GM started hastily downsizing engines and transmissions, the trouble began. The results were wildly uneven.
government is owed.
Subjective. This is might-maybe-possibly...
Actually, even at the higher price being offered ($32-33/share), GM will still have approx. 33% government ownership after the IPO. Treasury will recover no more than $13.6 billion from the IPO.
For complete payback after the IPO, the Treasury will need to get an additional $27.7 billion to break even. That info is according to an article from the Detroit Free Press...
Too bad GM did not consider doing an updated rwd sedan/station wagon using the 77-87 Caprice as basis.
They did try this twice. First with the Roadmaster and now with the STS. The issue of course, is that you CAN get that car you always wished GM would build. It's just now a Cadillac and priced accordingly. These don't sell well as a rule, so while you can get a STS, it's going to be merged with the DTS into probably yet another attempt at competing with the Euro-barges instead of trying to be something decent and affordable.
We know Mulally is very smart. And he also had union issues at Boeing. If I were him I would already have a contingency plan B ready to go if the union starts causing a lot of problems. Like being ready to move a pile of production out of the country.
The hatchback Fiesta's with their automatic tranny's are $16,000-$18,000-$20,000. If a person knows how to drive a stick you can really save. That price is really appealing, and reviews on this new European-inspired design from Ford are really good.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Don't forget that what you refer to "break even" is only on the last, and yes the biggest, of several above-and-beyond grants, loans, tax breaks that Detroit got in the 1-2 years before the BIG bailout. If you consider everything that Old GM got during their final 2 years it was at least another $25B.
And also consider all the secondary tax losses GM has caused the tax-payers. They caused a whole lot of people they owed money to, to claim losses on their taxes and lost income, that kept down tax revenues. SO GM's cost to the taxpayer is far beyond their the last Big bailout.
But, you're right about GM and Ford pretty much offering nothing that's a wagon any more.
The Subaru Outback is basically a wagon and Volvo still offers a V50 wagon. Minivans and SUVs have all but killed the wagon market.
I believe Ford will be bringing the C-Max which is a cool looking small wagon to the US in a year or two I believe.