There's nothing like a 3 dollar a month difference in gas costs to separate the good from the bad in cars that probably cost $600 a month to own and operate in the first year.
No, I certainly wouldn't chose a car over another over 1mpg or so.
The power output of the current Regal wouldn't turn me off if I were to like how it feels from behind the wheel. Though reading about the lack of refinement would. I've sampled VW's 2.0 TSI and it is a gem and feels much stronger than it's output would suggest. I love how smooth it is.
The only thing that turned me off from the C&D article was their comments regarding GM's 2.0 turbo and the trans performance. I've driven a few 6speed GM vehicles and I"ve yet to like how any of them perform (to slow to downshift and GM still tends to use gearing that is taller than I prefer). That's not to say they are bad, but they don't suit me.
Looks like UA/Gov't-driven GM is losing in the innovation category.
Keep laughing at Hyundai. Makes my day!
The 2.0T Sonata, as its name suggests, is powered by a turbocharged 2.0-liter engine. Hyundai avoided the GDI moniker that could have legitimately been attached, as this inline-4 also features direct injection of its gasoline. Now I admit there’s nothing particular novel about having a turbo-enhanced direct-injected engine of small displacement do the job of a traditional—and more fuel-consumptive—V-6. But Hyundai engineers have been busy in perfecting this concept in several distinctly innovative ways.
For one, the turbo’s compressor housing is actually part of the engine’s exhaust manifold. What’s more, the casting that integrates these two elements is of austenite stainless steel. It’s quite a technical achievement to use this material, but it’s ideal for this application because of its thermal properties of getting exhaust heat efficiently to the turbo’s compressor. And, of course, having the two components integrated into one only enhances this.
Factoid: It’s both the kinetic energy of exhaust flow as well as the thermal energy of its expanding gases that drive the turbo’s compressor and its attached forced-induction-producing impeller. Hyundai’s integrated design enhances both aspects.
The Sonata’s turbo is a twin-scroll type as well. That is, its porting and vanes are designed to exploit two separate paths of exhaust flow, from cylinders 1 and 4 and from cylinders 2 and 3. This way, pulses during inherent four-stroke operation don’t trip over each other. This twin-scroll idea isn’t unique to Hyundai (the 2.0-liter Buick Regal uses it as well). But the Sonata’s 274 bhp versus the Regal’s 220 suggests the other wizardry involved.
Hyundai engineers figure that optimized forced induction plus direct injection are worth around a 22-percent kick in torque, from 220 to 269 lb.-ft. over a broad rpm range, with the twin scrolls accounting for perhaps half this. There’s lots of synergy involved here as well: Direct injection provides a cooler charge of fuel; optimized intercooling does its magic as well with the forced induction of air. They combine to produce the 2.0T’s 137 bhp/liter, a figure that’s quite amazing in a car in the $24K-$29K range. More details on this and my driving impressions once the embargo has lifted.
The shame continues 'cause you can get far higher value as well as tech NOT shopping GM. Wouldn't you really rather drive a SONATA?
Iluv, I really have enjoyed your posts over the months and years, but damn! - you manage to end up faithful really obscure makes! - Mitsu, Suzuki, now Alpha. I guess you like orphaned vehicles?! :surprise: :P
yeah, one could argue that I go for the underdog. However, I am serious when I say my faves are Mitsubishi, Kia, Suzuki, Alfa Romeo and...umm...Dodge? Yes, we have a Toyota-Chrysler-Dodge dealer in our mining town here and it is Chrysler that has now merged with Fiat.
And this car here, the Alfa Romeo Giulietta for 2010, Dodge is importing to the U.S. to meet Federal mileage requirements. It will replace the unpopular and very aging Caliber round about Nov.'11. Coincides nicely with Toyota's release of their FT-86 as a Scion FR-S what will end up being within weeks or even days of each other! Whoo-hoo...fun for iluv! And I mean fun!!!! The decision has already been made by Sergio Marchionne, the Fiat CEO. So, I feel obligated to take one out for a test spin. Yeah, never, ever thought I'd be interested in buying a new Dodge. Maybe this merge with Fiat was a smart move for Chrysler. I mean, we were really critical of that move back in 2008 if you remember, now it's looking like a breakaway Gary Payton layup for a Sonic's victory in the glorious 1990's to iluv.
Hey man, went up and checked out a used M6 over the weekend and the dealer I went to has one of these for ya? Absolutely mint condition, like it just rolled off the showroom floor.
Mr. Goodwrench was a man of limited vocabulary in my experiences, "Can Not Duplicate". good riddance. But I don't think no slogans are going to help awful dealer service departments.
"General Motors reported it earned net income of $2.0 billion in the third quarter, its third consecutive profitable quarter and setting the automaker up for its first profitable year since 2004.
The results, in line with GM's guidance issued earlier this month, comes as GM executives are traveling the globe trying to drum up investor interest in its initial public offering. GM's new stock begins trading Nov. 18."
The WSJ says that "The profitability has enabled GM to return $9.5 billion of the $49.5 billion bailout from the U.S. government and begin to pay into its underfunded pension plan."
Maximum Bob was on CNBC this morning talking about GM and the upcoming IPO etc. He was asked about Ford's turnaround and he basically said it was pure luck based on Ford's CFO mortgaging the company before the crash. Okay, sure, w/o the cash Ford would have gone bankrupt too. I guess Ford's product improvement since then is purely coincidental.
This guy's hubris never seizes to amaze me. This is the same tool that said in a Business Week article in 2008 that "GM has been #1 in the world for the past 75 years and I see no reason why we won't be #1 for the next 75" while market share had been dropping like a rock for 30 years.
Good riddance Bob, I hope your enjoying retirement.
what's that big white thing in the Ford's grille? where is the Cruze mode with fog lights? moving vs still? big difference in tire profile how bout apples to apples once on here?
".....I guess Ford's product improvement since then is purely coincidental."
I don't think that it's coincidental, even if the refi was "luck". All thast did was allow Ford to weather the storm. Even if Ford had to go through what the other 2 did, I think that the product would be as high caliber as it is now. Refi is just another feather in Mullaly's cap. He deserves that CEO of the yr.
It's almost scary how right Mullaly has been. I don't know about anyone else but when he mortgaged everything to get the capital he needed to work with I thought he was crazy. Crazy like a fix as it turns out.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Absolutely!! The public has bought into Ford hook, line, and sinker (and maybe the tip of the rod, too). Rightfully so. The product coming out has been phenominal. I just hope that the product is what brings them in moreso than the lack of bankruptcy. After all, when you lay out that kind of money for a product, it doesn't matter whether they went BK or not. You will be either pleased with a good product and service or disappointed with bad.
I'm glad to see Ford kicking everyones tail, especially Government Motors.
Not just because I grew up a Ford guy, but because I absolutely despise the unfair advantage that was given to Gov't Motors with the sum of 50 billion in loans, the credit pricing advantage from GMAC being under Government ownership and now the 45 billion dollar tax free ride that followed.
There's a laudatory article on Ford and Mulally on MSNBC today. Remember he supported the GM and Chrysler bailout. "Mulally went to the Capitol to support his competitors -- because if GM and Chrysler went out of business, dozens of suppliers might follow, dragging Ford down with them."
I don't think Mulally would go too far out his way to stay in the UAW's good graces, based on his history at Boeing and his request for union concessions at Ford. (AutoObserver).
Some say that the UAW is keeping wages down pretty good by themselves.
“The union is busting the union. It’s just a matter of time before workers say they have to find something else. A lot of people don’t have any faith in the UAW. They get paid to protect workers but the workers have to fight for everything on our own, even simple grievances. All they say is ‘I’ll get back to you.’
“When my father and uncle worked in the plant the union was strong. Now it’s a joke. They say they have their hands tied, but they are partners with GM and they are not going to fight the company that is feeding them. With workers having their wages cut to $14, dues income will go down. The UAW is making more money from stock than union dues."
I wouldn't say he would go out of his way to help the unions. But helping keep GM and Chrysler around while they negotiate concessions with the union could only help Ford to do the same.
The local UAW union had a sprawling complex. Full size gymnasium, indoor pool, full size ball fields, dozens of acres for antique car meets and partial ownership of an 18 hole golf course. They sold the building and property to be used as a k-12 school and built a new union hall. Active workers union membership is reduced to less than 5% of what it once was in the town. The new union hall is only about 10,000 s.f. and was built around 2000. The car meets were huge. GM once had 31,000 employees just in that one town. Now it's a ghost town and the state gives the entire county a doubling of the homestead exemption on everyone's property taxes due to the economic hardship in the county. That almost saves me enough every year in taxes to lease a Corolla.
There's a recall every week these days. Since the Japanese brands got caught hiding their recalls and avoiding recalls, having honest recalls has become a good thing.
The hour-long doc that appeared that night and last night (rerun) was really interesting. I liked the statement made by Mulally when talking about his arrival. L-S-S, he was in the Tundrebird room and one of the wise-a**es asked "You're not from this industry, we make complex assemblies / components. What do you know about complex assemblies?" Mulally responded, "True I'm not from this industry, but I know you guys make vehicle assemblies that use roughly 30,000 parts. I ran a company that made assemblies with 300,000 parts and our "vehicle" had to stay in the air." Pretty much shut everybody up.
I wonder if that person still works there :confuse:
I also liked how he changed their India strategy too - going from just ploping an "almost what they want, kinda fits" vehicle and using the crazy idea of actually designing & making a vehicle right for the country that people actually want and selling at an affordable price that the people actually wanted. Crazy right? But the #1 thing is Ford has a habit of getting comfortable with initial success and riding that train to ruin. Break that & they can have success.
I just don't see that core-thinking at GM yet of building top product that people want / demand for the market. There's definitely a slight shift, but they're not there yet. And Loud-mouth Lutz is not doing them any favors.
If Chevy does return along with Honda, it will be interesting to track the reliability of their engines. Will they match up with Hondas, whose V8's have been bullit proof for the last few years. What will Penske do? He had a long association with Chevrolet engines in past. Will he switch from Honda?
3 unnamed sources reporting on the strong demand for GM stock, may be similar to the infomercial people who say you need to "buy in the next 10 minutes as supplies are limited, and this offer will not be repeated". That and $1 will get you a cup of coffee.
I think if I were GM and needed to raise the msot money possible, that I create some rumors as part of my IPO-promotion-campaign. Follow the $ folks, to find the truth. If someone has a lot to gain or lose, suspect that they may try to influence the outcome with some loose truths.
If you can get in on the IPO it should pay off. The initial offering price is going to be fairly low from what I can determine.
I'm not going to mess with it. I'm sticking with Ford stock for now. If I decide to invest any more $ in the auto industry it will be with some of the suppliers. Plus I have a feeling it will be hard for the average retail investor to get in on the IPO. Plus the government is going to have to offer more shares in the future to get paid back, so it's not something I plan to mess with.
I don't want to subsidize electric car charging stations.
Who cares about the GM IPO vs what the gov loses. We started entertaining the GM BK when the US national debt was $11 Trillion. Now we talk about delaying the GM IPO until the stock could bring twice the value. That wait will take us from $14 trillion in debt to 1$16 trillion in debt. Losing 5-6 billion on a less than totally fulfilling IPO while the national debt climbed $5 Trillion.
That is one tenth of one percent of an UNSOLVABLE debt problem. Ratioed into a percent of a year, lets spend one day every 3 years on that. But arent there thousands of new fed gov green jobs beaurocrats that we are paying $150,000 a year each to think up ideas like this: make GM go heavy into electric.
I don't want to subsidize electric car charging stations.
I don't want to subsidize GM.
On a serious note, the IPO is important for GM because they are losing sales because many people do care and are avoiding GM because they are primarily government owned. They need to get that monkey of their back.
But they never will. For some of us they will always be the arrogant jackasses that felt it was their right to get bailed out.
They'd have to come up with a pretty miraculous car - better than anything in the current stable - to get me to even look.
That's pretty much how I see it. GM would have to blow me away with something for me to buy one of their products again. They are essentially dead to me, but I felt that way before the bankruptcy.
Comments
No, I certainly wouldn't chose a car over another over 1mpg or so.
The power output of the current Regal wouldn't turn me off if I were to like how it feels from behind the wheel. Though reading about the lack of refinement would. I've sampled VW's 2.0 TSI and it is a gem and feels much stronger than it's output would suggest. I love how smooth it is.
The only thing that turned me off from the C&D article was their comments regarding GM's 2.0 turbo and the trans performance. I've driven a few 6speed GM vehicles and I"ve yet to like how any of them perform (to slow to downshift and GM still tends to use gearing that is taller than I prefer). That's not to say they are bad, but they don't suit me.
After all, a simple Sonata 2.0T beats it in value and almost every other category except....being German Bred!
Well, let's hope it evolves into a better car down the road. Interested to see the Caddy 3-series fighter.
Regards,
OW
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Keep laughing at Hyundai. Makes my day!
The 2.0T Sonata, as its name suggests, is powered by a turbocharged 2.0-liter engine. Hyundai avoided the GDI moniker that could have legitimately been attached, as this inline-4 also features direct injection of its gasoline. Now I admit there’s nothing particular novel about having a turbo-enhanced direct-injected engine of small displacement do the job of a traditional—and more fuel-consumptive—V-6. But Hyundai engineers have been busy in perfecting this concept in several distinctly innovative ways.
For one, the turbo’s compressor housing is actually part of the engine’s exhaust manifold. What’s more, the casting that integrates these two elements is of austenite stainless steel. It’s quite a technical achievement to use this material, but it’s ideal for this application because of its thermal properties of getting exhaust heat efficiently to the turbo’s compressor. And, of course, having the two components integrated into one only enhances this.
Factoid: It’s both the kinetic energy of exhaust flow as well as the thermal energy of its expanding gases that drive the turbo’s compressor and its attached forced-induction-producing impeller. Hyundai’s integrated design enhances both aspects.
The Sonata’s turbo is a twin-scroll type as well. That is, its porting and vanes are designed to exploit two separate paths of exhaust flow, from cylinders 1 and 4 and from cylinders 2 and 3. This way, pulses during inherent four-stroke operation don’t trip over each other. This twin-scroll idea isn’t unique to Hyundai (the 2.0-liter Buick Regal uses it as well). But the Sonata’s 274 bhp versus the Regal’s 220 suggests the other wizardry involved.
Hyundai engineers figure that optimized forced induction plus direct injection are worth around a 22-percent kick in torque, from 220 to 269 lb.-ft. over a broad rpm range, with the twin scrolls accounting for perhaps half this. There’s lots of synergy involved here as well: Direct injection provides a cooler charge of fuel; optimized intercooling does its magic as well with the forced induction of air. They combine to produce the 2.0T’s 137 bhp/liter, a figure that’s quite amazing in a car in the $24K-$29K range. More details on this and my driving impressions once the embargo has lifted.
The shame continues 'cause you can get far higher value as well as tech NOT shopping GM. Wouldn't you really rather drive a SONATA?
Regards,
OW
Iluv, I really have enjoyed your posts over the months and years, but damn! - you manage to end up faithful really obscure makes! - Mitsu, Suzuki, now Alpha. I guess you like orphaned vehicles?! :surprise: :P
NEVER!!!!!
And this car here, the Alfa Romeo Giulietta for 2010, Dodge is importing to the U.S. to meet Federal mileage requirements. It will replace the unpopular and very aging Caliber round about Nov.'11. Coincides nicely with Toyota's release of their FT-86 as a Scion FR-S what will end up being within weeks or even days of each other! Whoo-hoo...fun for iluv! And I mean fun!!!! The decision has already been made by Sergio Marchionne, the Fiat CEO. So, I feel obligated to take one out for a test spin. Yeah, never, ever thought I'd be interested in buying a new Dodge. Maybe this merge with Fiat was a smart move for Chrysler. I mean, we were really critical of that move back in 2008 if you remember, now it's looking like a breakaway Gary Payton layup for a Sonic's victory in the glorious 1990's to iluv.
Schweet
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Reference: TTAC
http://silverstone-motorcars.ebizautos.com/detail-1973-cadillac-eldorado_biarrit- z-tourneau_top_roadster-used-5438049.html
Only a handful were made apparently so it's a collector piece.
:shades:
Lemko's gonna call himself "The predicament"?
:P
(Totally kidding btw, I have no idea what the MTV reference was to...)
Now the Chinese will show the corporate idiots that Killed GM how to reinvent the brand...make CARS people are excited to buy.
Time to Lay all the Deadhead Dealers to Rest as well. No use having the supply chain disease continue as in the past.
Regards,
OW
"General Motors reported it earned net income of $2.0 billion in the third quarter, its third consecutive profitable quarter and setting the automaker up for its first profitable year since 2004.
The results, in line with GM's guidance issued earlier this month, comes as GM executives are traveling the globe trying to drum up investor interest in its initial public offering. GM's new stock begins trading Nov. 18."
The WSJ says that "The profitability has enabled GM to return $9.5 billion of the $49.5 billion bailout from the U.S. government and begin to pay into its underfunded pension plan."
This guy's hubris never seizes to amaze me. This is the same tool that said in a Business Week article in 2008 that "GM has been #1 in the world for the past 75 years and I see no reason why we won't be #1 for the next 75" while market share had been dropping like a rock for 30 years.
Good riddance Bob, I hope your enjoying retirement.
Lutz still has that sense of entitlement that has always characterized GM.
The best move Bill Ford ever did was recognize that he was in over his head and firing himself from the CEO spot.
where is the Cruze mode with fog lights?
moving vs still?
big difference in tire profile
how bout apples to apples once on here?
Is that what the union health care was doing to GM?
I don't think that it's coincidental, even if the refi was "luck". All thast did was allow Ford to weather the storm. Even if Ford had to go through what the other 2 did, I think that the product would be as high caliber as it is now. Refi is just another feather in Mullaly's cap. He deserves that CEO of the yr.
Not just because I grew up a Ford guy, but because I absolutely despise the unfair advantage that was given to Gov't Motors with the sum of 50 billion in loans, the credit pricing advantage from GMAC being under Government ownership and now the 45 billion dollar tax free ride that followed.
link title
The special treatment given to these clowns is unbelievable. :lemon:
I wish Ford many decades of good fortune... :shades:
How Ford got back on the fast track to success
Meanwhile it looks like Chevy is returning to Indy.
Chevy-to-IndyCar Rumors Hot; Announcement Friday? (Inside Line)
Some say that the UAW is keeping wages down pretty good by themselves.
“The union is busting the union. It’s just a matter of time before workers say they have to find something else. A lot of people don’t have any faith in the UAW. They get paid to protect workers but the workers have to fight for everything on our own, even simple grievances. All they say is ‘I’ll get back to you.’
“When my father and uncle worked in the plant the union was strong. Now it’s a joke. They say they have their hands tied, but they are partners with GM and they are not going to fight the company that is feeding them. With workers having their wages cut to $14, dues income will go down. The UAW is making more money from stock than union dues."
World Socialist Web Site
UAW Local 599 puts hall up for sale as General Motors leaves Powertrain Flint North (mlive.com)
In other news, Nader tells the US to hold on to the GM stock and make them go electric.
Ralph Nader To GM: Whoa on IPO (Inside Line)
Your "handle" speaks volumes about your objectivity.
The undisputed fact is, Toyota is the undisputed recall leader this year. And no amount of whining about GM will change that.
I wonder if that person still works there :confuse:
I also liked how he changed their India strategy too - going from just ploping an "almost what they want, kinda fits" vehicle and using the crazy idea of actually designing & making a vehicle right for the country that people actually want and selling at an affordable price that the people actually wanted. Crazy right? But the #1 thing is Ford has a habit of getting comfortable with initial success and riding that train to ruin. Break that & they can have success.
I just don't see that core-thinking at GM yet of building top product that people want / demand for the market. There's definitely a slight shift, but they're not there yet. And Loud-mouth Lutz is not doing them any favors.
I think if I were GM and needed to raise the msot money possible, that I create some rumors as part of my IPO-promotion-campaign. Follow the $ folks, to find the truth. If someone has a lot to gain or lose, suspect that they may try to influence the outcome with some loose truths.
I'm not going to mess with it. I'm sticking with Ford stock for now. If I decide to invest any more $ in the auto industry it will be with some of the suppliers. Plus I have a feeling it will be hard for the average retail investor to get in on the IPO. Plus the government is going to have to offer more shares in the future to get paid back, so it's not something I plan to mess with.
I don't want to subsidize electric car charging stations.
Who cares about the GM IPO vs what the gov loses. We started entertaining the GM BK when the US national debt was $11 Trillion. Now we talk about delaying the GM IPO until the stock could bring twice the value. That wait will take us from $14 trillion in debt to 1$16 trillion in debt. Losing 5-6 billion on a less than totally fulfilling IPO while the national debt climbed $5 Trillion.
That is one tenth of one percent of an UNSOLVABLE debt problem. Ratioed into a percent of a year, lets spend one day every 3 years on that. But arent there thousands of new fed gov green jobs beaurocrats that we are paying $150,000 a year each to think up ideas like this: make GM go heavy into electric.
I don't want to subsidize GM.
On a serious note, the IPO is important for GM because they are losing sales because many people do care and are avoiding GM because they are primarily government owned. They need to get that monkey of their back.
They'd have to come up with a pretty miraculous car - better than anything in the current stable - to get me to even look.
They'd have to come up with a pretty miraculous car - better than anything in the current stable - to get me to even look.
That's pretty much how I see it. GM would have to blow me away with something for me to buy one of their products again. They are essentially dead to me, but I felt that way before the bankruptcy.