When I was a kid, my dad knew a Pearl Harbor survivor (who had the plates on his car). What did he drive? An Accord! He loved the smooth little engine and the accurate transmission. At last year's local MBCA show there was a "Former POW" plated E Cabrio - 90 year old driver was a POW in Germany. Some who were there put the past behind them, maybe realizing who makes war to begin with - not them nor who they fought.
If we are going to hold people responsible in this way, we darn well better be prepared for other people in the world to do likewise against us.
I'll say this once more, and anyone can reply in any way they want with no further reply from me...but as everyone knows, was is Hell, but historians know what side of history the U.S. fell on in that war of less than 70 years ago.
It has been written many times over. There is no comparing what we did there to what the Germans and Japanese did. Ask China about the latter.
We vacationed in Italy two summers ago. Totally my wife's wish. A great time. We visited the American cemetery in Florence. (Body bags were a Vietnam-era change). The Italian tour guide could not even mention Hitler's name...referred to him as "Mussolini's friend from Austria".
I had to laugh...such a beautiful country, and supposedly so sophisticated, yet they had a dictator 66 years ago. Go figure.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Well, if that's not your thing, GM had a pretty tasteful two-tone, Gonorrhea Green over Medium Avocado Metallic. :P Well, okay, GM's marketing dept wasn't too creative that year, they just called it "light green over medium green metallic"...
I like the style, comfort, variety, and interiors of the late 70's cars, but not the fuel economy, wide variation in quality/durability (one car might go 300K miles but then the very next one off the assembly line could be junk within a year), etc.
I'd be happy if they could find a way to combine the eras. To use a personal example, say if they made something that looked like my '76 LeMans, but had an up-to-date powertrain. Say, something like the 3.6/6-speed auto combo out of the Camaro. The V-8 would be even better, but even that 3.6 would blow away anything that GM was making in 1976! Handling on my LeMans actually isn't bad...that's one thing that GM actually did more or less right with these cars. Braking isn't too bad for the era either, although of course a modern braking system, with 4-wheel discs and abs would be even better.
Honestly, avocado isn't my favorite shade of green, and I prefer to avoid gonorrhea, but I love some of the pale, frosty silver/gray/blue-greens they used to offer, or darker colors like forest and emerald.
When it came to color choices, I think the 70's were, to use the old cliche, the best of times, and the worst of times.
My Caprice, depending on the year, would be either Firethorn or that dark, dark maroon , no vinyl top, and the plastic, scooped-out wheel covers that resembled a wheel (instead of the other way around like so many of today's cars).
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
>Camries don't have squeaks and rattles. They "emit audible feedback!"
Ahhhh, yes. And because some of their cars are built in this country, that makes them a US company! And it's okay to buy them. I wonder if the Indianapolis survivor gets his SS payment from Japan? His VA benefits and costs paid by Japan? God knows we've spent enough of our money defending their homeland since the WWII which they started with us.
>Quite a bit slanted...Lutz' spin, no sources mentioned
I have no way of discerning slant, other than by his words and presentation throughout the book don't indicate a slant beyond being Pro GM, which of course is good.
What would he have to benefit from making a statement about an imaginary press conference by toyota? How long would it be before someone says, "There never was a press conference."
Have we heard that statement?
I believe his statement to be true, and I am sure most people will.
After about ten seconds of looking, here's a '77 Caprice coupe. Has the small "F" series tires and the standard wheelcovers, but I think the styling has stood the test of time. Can't think of much anything else from that period I could really say the same about. Almost zero fat on that car...interior and trunk are cavernous:
>But I'm not going to put all of Germany or Japan or any country for that matter in the same classification. Particularly after 60 years (but that's me, I can forgive and move on).
What do you think has been the attitude by Japan as they shipped us goods at a below market price which put our companies out of business through the last decades? Did they consider that they should have been having a fair value of the Yen? A fair trade with pricing. Did they appreciate our spending a fortune in military costs protecting their little island?
What has been the attitude by China the last decade as they shipped us goods with their currency below value? Do they care about our country's survival beyond sending the balance of trade value due to them each month?
Are both countries interested in having US countries import as much as possible to them to mitigate the balance of trade deficit? Or do they make it as difficult as possible to import goods to their homelands?
I try to buy US goods when I can, but don't look down on those who don't
I don't either, but it's usually those people who get sanctimonious first and foremost about how bad everything made in the U.S.A. is. Then, I try and fire back with logic. Works sometimes.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
After about ten seconds of looking, here's a '77 Caprice coupe. Has the small "F" series tires and the standard wheelcovers, but I think the styling has stood the test of time. Can't think of much anything else from that period I could really say the same about. Almost zero fat on that car...interior and trunk are cavernous:
I agree. GM certainly did well with those cars. Didn't they sell over 600k/yr or something like that in the late 70's. Ford and Chrysler didn't seem to much to offer at the time.
The Caprice is/was a decent looking big car. I forgot how big they were. It's longer than my Expedition, though a little narrower.
I agree. GM certainly did well with those cars. Didn't they sell over 600k/yr or something like that in the late 70's. Ford and Chrysler didn't seem to much to offer at the time.
IIRC, Chevy sold about 660K Caprice/Impalas in '77, 600-650K in '78, and 550-600K in '79. Oddly though, sales of the old mastodon-sized cars that Ford and Mopar were still offering didn't fall...in fact I think in most cases they gained slightly, because there were still people who wanted a B-I-G car, and in their minds, GM was no longer competition.
I think most of the sales success of GM's downsized big cars came at the expense of the midsized cars, which for the most part saw lower sales that year. One exception was the Olds Cutlass, which sold better in '77 than it had in '76. And the '77 T-bird was a hot seller. I think the big losers for the most part were Ford and Mopar. Both of them made lame attempts at passing off their old-school intermediates as some kind of competition to the Caprice. Ford re-styled the Torino and called it LTD-II. It was a lot more modern looking, but heavy, and made poor use of interior space, and was bypassed as a lot of buyers went for the T-bird instead.
Ford advertising even went so far as to say "Only Ford give you TWO choices in full-sized cars...traditional-sized LTD and modern-sized LTD-II" or something along those lines. Few buyers fell for it though.
Chrysler was even lamer. All they did was take the 1976 Coronet, give it a slight facelift with stacked quad headlights, and call it "Monaco", while keeping "Royal Monaco" reserved for the truly big cars. Plymouth had actually done the same thing a couple years earlier in '75, renaming what had been the Satellite to "Fury" and calling all the big cars "Gran Fury". Advertising touted the "New Small Fury", but again, few people were fooled. They made great police cars, though. The '78 Fury, with the 440, was fast enough in 0-60 and top speed that it wouldn't be until the 1994 LT-1 Caprice, that a big, sedan-based car was quicker.
When Chrysler and Ford finally got around to offering truly downsized big cars in 1979, it was, for the most part, too little, too late. Although the Ford Panthers did prove to be the ultimate winner, I guess, since they were built up until just the last year or so.
The '79 LTD/Marquis actually were new designs, but the '79 Mopar St. Regis/Newport/New Yorkers were actually very heavily modified B-bodies...essentially the '78 Monaco/Fury in a crisp new suit. They were comfortable and handled well, and again made for great police cars, but the ride was firmer than a lot of big-car buyers were used to. And while downsized, they were still bigger, for the most part, than their GM/Ford rivals, and the stylists gave them a big, heavy look. They were still low to the ground like cars had been in the earlier years, whereas GM and Ford cars were getting taller, and that probably made the Mopars look even bigger and heavier.
Plus, Ford was in financial trouble at the time and Mopar was facing bankruptcy, so many buyers were leery about taking a chance with one of their products. In contrast, at the time it seemed that GM could do no wrong, although in later years, we would learn that wasn't really the case.
You can have it. It's still dog slow and boring. Those v8's from the 70's and 80's are wheezy and slow. I don't doubt a Caprice could made to handle okay, but all the suspension tuning in the world in 1978 wouldn't change the fact that the PS is over boosted, the brakes are weak, and the car is slow. My dad had a '79 Carpice Classic, I remember nothing remarkable about that car other than it was big. Sure it was great then, but not many people want a lumbering sedan anymore.
The Chevy 350 in those years had 170 hp, and I remember seeing one test, Motortrend I think, that put 0-60 at 10.8 seconds. I think some other rag got one to do it in just under 10...might have depended on gearing. It would probably be okay for most "normal" driving nowadays, but you'd notice the lag if you really needed to punch it, compared to a lot of modern cars.
In 1979, Chevy cut the hp of the 305 in the Caprice to 130 hp. It had been 145 in '77-78. Consumer Reports tested one, and got 0-60 in a pathetic 15.4 seconds! I think the earlier, '77-78 models were good for around 12.5-13. Nothing to brag about by today's standards, but competent for the time.
By 1987, I think the 305 was TBI and had around 170 hp. If your Granddad's LS had the F41 suspension, it would have been a nice package overall...decent combination of ride, handling, and acceleration.
Back in late 2009 after my Intrepid got totaled, I looked at a 1991 or 1992 Caprice that a local lot had for sale. Compared to the more angular 1990 and earlier styles, I thought it sucked! The interior was cheaper and a lot more plasticky, and the thing just felt big and bloated, without making good use of interior space. If it was the later '94-96 LT-1 model, I would've been able to tolerate the interior, but this one just had the TBI 305.
Plus, Ford was in financial trouble at the time and Mopar was facing bankruptcy, so many buyers were leery about taking a chance with one of their products. In contrast, at the time it seemed that GM could do no wrong, although in later years, we would learn that wasn't really the case.
Yeah, Ford came close to bankruptcy themselves in '81 or so IIRC. No doubt the horrible cars Ford sold in the 70's were a big reason why (and I'm a Ford fan), but man, Ford was horrible then. Regardless of Japanese cars and manipulated currencies etc.
In 1979, Chevy cut the hp of the 305 in the Caprice to 130 hp. It had been 145 in '77-78. Consumer Reports tested one, and got 0-60 in a pathetic 15.4 seconds! I think the earlier, '77-78 models were good for around 12.5-13. Nothing to brag about by today's standards, but competent for the time.
yeah, that sounds about right. Back then anything under 10 seconds would have been considered quick:(
My dad's 79 Caprice wagon had a 2bbl 305 and it was SLOW. My dad had it until '85 and he let a older friend of mine take it to run errands on occasion as I didn't have a license yet. I remember being shocked at how slow it actually was when my buddy punched it.
By 1987, I think the 305 was TBI and had around 170 hp. If your Granddad's LS had the F41 suspension, it would have been a nice package overall...decent combination of ride, handling, and acceleration.
I can't recall if a Brougham LS had different suspension options, so I don't know which it had. I did have the opportunity to drive it a lot. When ever I was with him, I drove. For the time, it was peppy, smooth, and drove nice (remember I drove an Escort and my dad a Tempo at the time, so everything seemed fast). I remember it being somewhat quick through 1st gear, the 4bbl sounded nice as did the exhaust, it actually had a bit of a burble to it. It must have had a decent gear ratio, as I remember it wouldn't go much faster than 35 in first (when I had it out by myself;)) Where many other GM v8 cars I'd driven back then would often go 40-50mph in 1st.
I'm replying to your original post to point out, specifically, the slant. I like Lutz overall, so I'll try to be objective about it.
Toyota immediately labeled Volt a clever but meaningless PR exercise
Really? Doubtful, at a minimum he's embellishing. More likely they said something like they took a more conservative approach and didn't feel like the technology was ready for that yet. His spin is simply not believable.
How much sounder, they trumpeted, was their own homely little Prius
He makes it sound like they called their own car ugly. His mild hybrids lost the hybrid sales battle (ever even *seen* an Aura hybrid?) and he just sounds like a sore loser.
recalled for unintended acceleration and failing brakes (on the pious Prius, of all cars)
Again, pure spin. The Prius was not among the 8 models NHTSA/CR investigated for SUA. NHTSA evaluated Sikes' Prius, a case I'm sure you're familiar with, and concluded the brake override was not only present, it was still working!
Lutz groups the SUA recall in with the brake recall to create a negative association with the car that humiliated his company's entire hybrid effort.
I saw Animal House last night, and the quote that reminds me most of Lutz, and happens to be timely given the current topic:
WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR!?
Here's an example of one late 1970s car I once owned and would very much desire today, especially with the 403 V-8. This was my second car, my second Buick, and an excellent car all around!
My dad's 79 Caprice wagon had a 2bbl 305 and it was SLOW. My dad had it until '85 and he let a older friend of mine take it to run errands on occasion as I didn't have a license yet. I remember being shocked at how slow it actually was when my buddy punched it.
Oh, I forgot that it was a wagon. The car CR tested was a sedan. I remember them testing a '77 or so Chevy wagon with the 145 hp 305, and a Pontiac Safari wagon with a 140 or so hp 301, and got 0-60 in around 15 seconds. So, for a '79 wagon, with the 130 hp 305, I'd guess 0-60 was more like 17?
My first car was a 1980 Malibu coupe with a 115 hp 229 V-6. I've never seen a road test of a comparable car, but I have a sad feeling 0-60 was around 15 seconds. Even sadder, at the time, my friends and I thought it was fast! And, compared to the cars they were driving, it was. It would make waste of the likes of those Pintos, 4-cyl Mustangs, 1980 Accord automatics, 1985 Cavaliers, 4-cyl Fairmonts, '83 Stanzas, etc. Then, one of my friends, the one with the Stanza, bought a new '89 Escort. We raced once, and it was pretty much a dead heat.
My first new car was a "regular" black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic and my Grandpop's last car was a loaded maroon 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham LS with a really plush interior.
The Chinese don't forget as easily as the Americans do, nor should they. There is still plenty of anti-Japanese sentiment in China these days. The things the Japanese did to Chinese POWs would make Hannibal Lechter barf. The Japanese also forced Korean women into prostitution as "comfort ladies."
My first car was a 1980 Malibu coupe with a 115 hp 229 V-6. I've never seen a road test of a comparable car, but I have a sad feeling 0-60 was around 15 seconds. Even sadder, at the time, my friends and I thought it was fast! And, compared to the cars they were driving, it was. It would make waste of the likes of those Pintos, 4-cyl Mustangs, 1980 Accord automatics, 1985 Cavaliers, 4-cyl Fairmonts, '83 Stanzas, etc. Then, one of my friends, the one with the Stanza, bought a new '89 Escort. We raced once, and it was pretty much a dead heat.
Yeah, I remember a lot of those cars. When my dad got a '92 CrownVic with the 190hp 4.6, I thought it was a rocket compared to anything I routinely got to drive.
Without our presence there, Japan would be known as the Nippon Soviet Socialist Republic and statues of Stalin would be in the Ginza. The USSR wasted no time taking back the Sakhalin islands they lost in the Russo-Japanese War of 1905.
Those downsized full-size Chevrolets were super-popular when they debuted. The Philadelphia Police even had 1978 Impalas as their patrol cars back then.
I like those wraparound window coupes, too. Probably one of the highlights of an otherwise dark era for new cars - and I doubt they were all assembled with jewel-like precision. But, a unique look and for the time, very crisp and understated.
Comparing that '77-78 Fury to a Dodge St. Regis... I think Mopar actually did a pretty good job at disguising the fact that they were related.
I've heard that one of the most expensive parts to redesign on a car is the area around the firewall/cowl/windshield/A-pillars. Chrysler at least redid the windshield and A-pillars, and also gave the cars new dashboards. When Ford massaged the Torino into the LTD-II, they didn't even do that. However, the Torino windshield and A-pillars were already somewhat squared-off, so they blended fairly well into the crisper, more angular '77 sheetmetal.
Unfortunately though, to give the R-body full-sized interior room, they had to stretch the wheelbase out, which again wasn't so bad for the Chryslers. But I think it made the St. Regis and the '80-81 Gran Fury too big for most buyers.
Another problem is that it lessened the differences between the more prestigious cars and the cheaper ones. With GM, if you bought an Electra/98/DeVille, you got a car that was bigger inside than a Caprice/Impala/et al. The difference was mainly in the back seat, which had a bit more legroom. But with the Mopars, they were all the same size inside, from the cheapest Gran Fury on up to the most opulent NYer 5th Ave.
I'm able to get over things...I don't love the Soviet past nor do I have much embrace of the Russian present - but quite a few of their old cars are very interesting. The fake Packards, fake 48 Caddys, and the weird Mopar/MB hybrids are all interesting. The Pobeda (cross between a 48 Ford and a 49 Chevy fastback sedan) is interesting too in its own way. The two stroke East German cars are interesting too, a Trabi or Wartburg could be fun. That being said, I also wouldn't have a problem with a 1930s MB in my garage, nor a 1920s Bentley etc. I can take the machines at face value.
There is still plenty of anti-Japanese sentiment in China these days
Yep, they just denied Subaru a joint venture there with Chery, saying that Toyota already has their limit of JVs, even though Toyota only holds a small minority stake in Subaru.
Oh, no doubt. But, there were probably many German and Japanese soldiers who tried to kill Americans, that were still building cars in their respective countries for export here, into as late as the late '80's as well.
Also some on these forums believe it is OKAY to do anything and everything as long as you were ordered to do so by your Government. They were all just following orders.
Similar to how our gov't ordered everyone to bailout the auto industry against most people's better judgement and wishes.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Be upset at the leaders (now all long dead, and deservedly so) rather than conscripts who had no control over anything. And of course don't think about the concept of "western betrayal" that we and our friends so shamelessly committed, nor a key reason for the postwar reality - operation paperclip. We were all about liberation and freedom. Closets without skeletons, hands without blood.
Maybe they are sophisticated, they are more than happy to allow us to provide, virtually gratis, a huge part of their defense for the past 66 years - because some people in leadership here hold huge egos about old events. Who is winning? Oh yeah, Germany is once again the dominant power in Europe, all while receiving less postwar aid than France or Britain. Doh.
Those 1930s Benzes are classics in their own right. The Mercedes most associated with [non-permissible content removed] Germany was the 770K. Just because Al Capone or any number of gangsters had V-16 Cadillacs doesn't make one any less desirable to me!
The China figures, however, carry a notable asterisk. They include sales arising from its nine China joint-ventures, including Shanghai General Motors Co., SAIC-GM-Wuling Automobile Co., and Shanghai GM Dong Yue Motors Co.
I'm able to get over things...I don't love the Soviet past nor do I have much embrace of the Russian present - but quite a few of their old cars are very interesting. The fake Packards, fake 48 Caddys, and the weird Mopar/MB hybrids are all interesting. The Pobeda (cross between a 48 Ford and a 49 Chevy fastback sedan) is interesting too in its own way. The two stroke East German cars are interesting too, a Trabi or Wartburg could be fun. That being said, I also wouldn't have a problem with a 1930s MB in my garage, nor a 1920s Bentley etc. I can take the machines at face value.
Good point. There are certainly many cars over the years I'd love to have in my dream garage, but most of them wouldn't be my preferred daily driver. Going back to the coach builder days are truly interesting. Back then, almost anything imaginable was an option, all it took was $$.
Either the History channel or the Smithsonian channel had a documentary on Rolls Royces that were exported to India IIRC prior to WWII. It was quite fascinating.
but it's usually those people who get sanctimonious first and foremost about how bad everything made in the U.S.A. is.
You probably include me in that group. However, even though I do believe (correctly) that US cars stink. I have never really said US trucks are horrible. I don't trust them, but it seems we have more know how and ability/competence to make a good truck in the US than we do a car (an example is US built Honda cars don't seem to be quite as good, but those Tundras are fine from TX). I wouldn't mind tools, electronics, or other items from the US. In fact, I'd prefer it be made in the USA to most other places (cars excepted due to bad experience).
I'd rather have almost any good made in the USA over China or Mexico (can't tell how much of the Neon came from Mexico, but I know the windows/glass said hecho en Mexico on it, so guilty by association, plus, I atrribute a lot of VW's quality woes from using Mexico to build their cars). I have some quality electronics/audio equipment from China, but for the most part, my best high-end stuff was made in Japan. My awesome quality sunglasses (Maui Jim) were made in Italy. My fantastic quality OZ Racing wheels were made in Italy.
Funny when I was at the COACH outlet (a store that sells $100-$1,000 purses/handbags), I noticed not only were all the bags made in China (as most clothes type products seem to be), but also the men's wallets and belts were too (one belt came from India). All of the sunglasses I looked at were made in China. I know that Chinese sunglasses are not good quality. I don't think Italy makes cheap sunglasses. Needless to say, I didn't buy anything from Coach, and neither did my better half thank goodness.
So while I prefer my cars from Japan or Germany, my sunglasses from Italy, and my electronics from Japan, I'd much rather get something Made in USA (other than car), over something made in China, Bangladesh, Mexico, or India. And all that is simply based on ownership experience.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Man, I love my MJs. Best sunglasses I've ever had. Great for sunny days out on the lake.
We have a leather sofa from Italy and it's fantastic. Expensive, but it's incredibly well made.
I have never really said US trucks are horrible. I don't trust them, but it seems we have more know how and ability to make a good truck in the US than we do a car (an example is US built Honda's don't seem to be quite as good, but those Tundras are fine from TX).
No question IMO the US makes the best pickups. I said best, not most reliable. I know the Tundra's are very reliable. I can't comment on how durable they are, but the mechanical and build quality on them are quite good.
But the US makes just offer configurations, options, and capabilities the Tundra/Titian can't match. That doesn't make the imports bad trucks. Actually for the guy who just needs to tow a boat or run to HD on the weekends the Tundra is great. But for the contractor, farmer, RV'r, etc, who need/want to tow a 15k lb 5th wheel or gooseneck trailer the domestic are the only way to go.
Even in 1/2 ton config, the options and configurations available are impressive.
ya, I guess it would kinda suck if the mission was in reverse and there were folks saying how nobody in China should be allowed to buy GM products...
Buick would be dead for one thing. :sick:
The company I worked for at the beginning of this year did a lot of business with all 3 of these units, easily overshadowing the amount of business that came out of their American plants...
Regal is a bummer!!!!!!Too much Commie in it...A 4 cylinder slug with a big price..
Owned a few Buicks and the plain LeSabre 1994 did a quick 111K mi with new tires, brakes, and 4 heavy duty struts around 50k miles..Engine had oil changes @5k intervals..owned about 24 mos..
First Buick was a new 1973 LeSabre w/455 V-8, suffered from rod knocks, Buick dealer short-blocked it, same condition, broomed the beast after 35k miles and followed with 3 Pontiac Grand Prixs, 1974, 1976, and 1977, all LJ models with 455 V-8s..broomed each one after 90k miles..Great cars.
Next was a 1981 Buick Rivera V-8, gone after 20k miles, a joke. Bought the wife a 1987 Buick Electra T-Type, another joke of a car..sold after 30k miles..
Last one to mention was a 1992 Buick Regal Gran Sport, put a quick 95k miles, and at speed it was like sitting in a "rocking chair", cupped tires on rear due to soft suspension, too much travel..Goodyear Tire was outstanding with free tires!!!!
After the 1971 SS350 Camaro which endured a quick 90k miles w/o any driveline/engine issues, I guess I was spoiled...
I stay away from the Buick dealer, ex Pontiac dealer locally, and my 2006 Grand Prix GT is a far cry of the GPs of the 70s..But the Mustang GT has filled the spot for fun driving..
Somehow GM has lost it's luster..must be it's China smell....could be the POTUS influence...you think?????
My first impression from Kia (from a rental in the 90's) was that they felt and drove like they had the structural integrity of the World Trade Center 45 minutes after being hit by the airplanes on 9/11.
They made my Neon seem Bank Vault tight in comparison! LOL.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
If we are going to hold people responsible in this way, we darn well better be prepared for other people in the world to do likewise against us.
Yeah, our house has plenty of glass.
It has been written many times over. There is no comparing what we did there to what the Germans and Japanese did. Ask China about the latter.
We vacationed in Italy two summers ago. Totally my wife's wish. A great time. We visited the American cemetery in Florence. (Body bags were a Vietnam-era change). The Italian tour guide could not even mention Hitler's name...referred to him as "Mussolini's friend from Austria".
I had to laugh...such a beautiful country, and supposedly so sophisticated, yet they had a dictator 66 years ago. Go figure.
Well, if that's not your thing, GM had a pretty tasteful two-tone, Gonorrhea Green over Medium Avocado Metallic. :P Well, okay, GM's marketing dept wasn't too creative that year, they just called it "light green over medium green metallic"...
I like the style, comfort, variety, and interiors of the late 70's cars, but not the fuel economy, wide variation in quality/durability (one car might go 300K miles but then the very next one off the assembly line could be junk within a year), etc.
I'd be happy if they could find a way to combine the eras. To use a personal example, say if they made something that looked like my '76 LeMans, but had an up-to-date powertrain. Say, something like the 3.6/6-speed auto combo out of the Camaro. The V-8 would be even better, but even that 3.6 would blow away anything that GM was making in 1976! Handling on my LeMans actually isn't bad...that's one thing that GM actually did more or less right with these cars. Braking isn't too bad for the era either, although of course a modern braking system, with 4-wheel discs and abs would be even better.
Honestly, avocado isn't my favorite shade of green, and I prefer to avoid gonorrhea, but I love some of the pale, frosty silver/gray/blue-greens they used to offer, or darker colors like forest and emerald.
When it came to color choices, I think the 70's were, to use the old cliche, the best of times, and the worst of times.
Ahhhh, yes. And because some of their cars are built in this country, that makes them a US company! And it's okay to buy them. I wonder if the Indianapolis survivor gets his SS payment from Japan? His VA benefits and costs paid by Japan? God knows we've spent enough of our money defending their homeland since the WWII which they started with us.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hopefully, the newer technology will work. That will benefit all companies who will be using batteries in their vehicles in the future.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have no way of discerning slant, other than by his words and presentation throughout the book don't indicate a slant beyond being Pro GM, which of course is good.
What would he have to benefit from making a statement about an imaginary press conference by toyota? How long would it be before someone says, "There never was a press conference."
Have we heard that statement?
I believe his statement to be true, and I am sure most people will.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
He earned his right to buy what he wants and defended ours. I like being able to buy pretty much what I want.
I try to buy US goods when I can, but don't look down on those who don't.
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/images/b/2011/01/13/913061/0_7923_2.jpg
Here's a commercial for the car, with someone you'll recognize:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUPhX5_bRS8&feature=related
"Now That's More Like It" was the tagline and jingle for the new full-sized Chevys that year. Catchy I think.
What do you think has been the attitude by Japan as they shipped us goods at a below market price which put our companies out of business through the last decades? Did they consider that they should have been having a fair value of the Yen? A fair trade with pricing. Did they appreciate our spending a fortune in military costs protecting their little island?
What has been the attitude by China the last decade as they shipped us goods with their currency below value? Do they care about our country's survival beyond sending the balance of trade value due to them each month?
Are both countries interested in having US countries import as much as possible to them to mitigate the balance of trade deficit? Or do they make it as difficult as possible to import goods to their homelands?
Let's think about how this has been working.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't either, but it's usually those people who get sanctimonious first and foremost about how bad everything made in the U.S.A. is. Then, I try and fire back with logic. Works sometimes.
I agree. GM certainly did well with those cars. Didn't they sell over 600k/yr or something like that in the late 70's. Ford and Chrysler didn't seem to much to offer at the time.
The Caprice is/was a decent looking big car. I forgot how big they were. It's longer than my Expedition, though a little narrower.
IIRC, Chevy sold about 660K Caprice/Impalas in '77, 600-650K in '78, and 550-600K in '79. Oddly though, sales of the old mastodon-sized cars that Ford and Mopar were still offering didn't fall...in fact I think in most cases they gained slightly, because there were still people who wanted a B-I-G car, and in their minds, GM was no longer competition.
I think most of the sales success of GM's downsized big cars came at the expense of the midsized cars, which for the most part saw lower sales that year. One exception was the Olds Cutlass, which sold better in '77 than it had in '76. And the '77 T-bird was a hot seller. I think the big losers for the most part were Ford and Mopar. Both of them made lame attempts at passing off their old-school intermediates as some kind of competition to the Caprice. Ford re-styled the Torino and called it LTD-II. It was a lot more modern looking, but heavy, and made poor use of interior space, and was bypassed as a lot of buyers went for the T-bird instead.
Ford advertising even went so far as to say "Only Ford give you TWO choices in full-sized cars...traditional-sized LTD and modern-sized LTD-II" or something along those lines. Few buyers fell for it though.
Chrysler was even lamer. All they did was take the 1976 Coronet, give it a slight facelift with stacked quad headlights, and call it "Monaco", while keeping "Royal Monaco" reserved for the truly big cars. Plymouth had actually done the same thing a couple years earlier in '75, renaming what had been the Satellite to "Fury" and calling all the big cars "Gran Fury". Advertising touted the "New Small Fury", but again, few people were fooled. They made great police cars, though. The '78 Fury, with the 440, was fast enough in 0-60 and top speed that it wouldn't be until the 1994 LT-1 Caprice, that a big, sedan-based car was quicker.
When Chrysler and Ford finally got around to offering truly downsized big cars in 1979, it was, for the most part, too little, too late. Although the Ford Panthers did prove to be the ultimate winner, I guess, since they were built up until just the last year or so.
The '79 LTD/Marquis actually were new designs, but the '79 Mopar St. Regis/Newport/New Yorkers were actually very heavily modified B-bodies...essentially the '78 Monaco/Fury in a crisp new suit. They were comfortable and handled well, and again made for great police cars, but the ride was firmer than a lot of big-car buyers were used to. And while downsized, they were still bigger, for the most part, than their GM/Ford rivals, and the stylists gave them a big, heavy look. They were still low to the ground like cars had been in the earlier years, whereas GM and Ford cars were getting taller, and that probably made the Mopars look even bigger and heavier.
Plus, Ford was in financial trouble at the time and Mopar was facing bankruptcy, so many buyers were leery about taking a chance with one of their products. In contrast, at the time it seemed that GM could do no wrong, although in later years, we would learn that wasn't really the case.
The Chevy 350 in those years had 170 hp, and I remember seeing one test, Motortrend I think, that put 0-60 at 10.8 seconds. I think some other rag got one to do it in just under 10...might have depended on gearing. It would probably be okay for most "normal" driving nowadays, but you'd notice the lag if you really needed to punch it, compared to a lot of modern cars.
In 1979, Chevy cut the hp of the 305 in the Caprice to 130 hp. It had been 145 in '77-78. Consumer Reports tested one, and got 0-60 in a pathetic 15.4 seconds! I think the earlier, '77-78 models were good for around 12.5-13. Nothing to brag about by today's standards, but competent for the time.
By 1987, I think the 305 was TBI and had around 170 hp. If your Granddad's LS had the F41 suspension, it would have been a nice package overall...decent combination of ride, handling, and acceleration.
Back in late 2009 after my Intrepid got totaled, I looked at a 1991 or 1992 Caprice that a local lot had for sale. Compared to the more angular 1990 and earlier styles, I thought it sucked! The interior was cheaper and a lot more plasticky, and the thing just felt big and bloated, without making good use of interior space. If it was the later '94-96 LT-1 model, I would've been able to tolerate the interior, but this one just had the TBI 305.
Yeah, Ford came close to bankruptcy themselves in '81 or so IIRC. No doubt the horrible cars Ford sold in the 70's were a big reason why (and I'm a Ford fan), but man, Ford was horrible then. Regardless of Japanese cars and manipulated currencies etc.
yeah, that sounds about right. Back then anything under 10 seconds would have been considered quick:(
My dad's 79 Caprice wagon had a 2bbl 305 and it was SLOW. My dad had it until '85 and he let a older friend of mine take it to run errands on occasion as I didn't have a license yet. I remember being shocked at how slow it actually was when my buddy punched it.
By 1987, I think the 305 was TBI and had around 170 hp. If your Granddad's LS had the F41 suspension, it would have been a nice package overall...decent combination of ride, handling, and acceleration.
I can't recall if a Brougham LS had different suspension options, so I don't know which it had. I did have the opportunity to drive it a lot. When ever I was with him, I drove. For the time, it was peppy, smooth, and drove nice (remember I drove an Escort and my dad a Tempo at the time, so everything seemed fast). I remember it being somewhat quick through 1st gear, the 4bbl sounded nice as did the exhaust, it actually had a bit of a burble to it. It must have had a decent gear ratio, as I remember it wouldn't go much faster than 35 in first (when I had it out by myself;)) Where many other GM v8 cars I'd driven back then would often go 40-50mph in 1st.
LOL, maybe they thought it would blow up on its own;)
Toyota immediately labeled Volt a clever but meaningless PR exercise
Really? Doubtful, at a minimum he's embellishing. More likely they said something like they took a more conservative approach and didn't feel like the technology was ready for that yet. His spin is simply not believable.
How much sounder, they trumpeted, was their own homely little Prius
He makes it sound like they called their own car ugly. His mild hybrids lost the hybrid sales battle (ever even *seen* an Aura hybrid?) and he just sounds like a sore loser.
recalled for unintended acceleration and failing brakes (on the pious Prius, of all cars)
Again, pure spin. The Prius was not among the 8 models NHTSA/CR investigated for SUA. NHTSA evaluated Sikes' Prius, a case I'm sure you're familiar with, and concluded the brake override was not only present, it was still working!
Lutz groups the SUA recall in with the brake recall to create a negative association with the car that humiliated his company's entire hybrid effort.
I saw Animal House last night, and the quote that reminds me most of Lutz, and happens to be timely given the current topic:
WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR!?
Oh, I forgot that it was a wagon. The car CR tested was a sedan. I remember them testing a '77 or so Chevy wagon with the 145 hp 305, and a Pontiac Safari wagon with a 140 or so hp 301, and got 0-60 in around 15 seconds. So, for a '79 wagon, with the 130 hp 305, I'd guess 0-60 was more like 17?
My first car was a 1980 Malibu coupe with a 115 hp 229 V-6. I've never seen a road test of a comparable car, but I have a sad feeling 0-60 was around 15 seconds. Even sadder, at the time, my friends and I thought it was fast! And, compared to the cars they were driving, it was. It would make waste of the likes of those Pintos, 4-cyl Mustangs, 1980 Accord automatics, 1985 Cavaliers, 4-cyl Fairmonts, '83 Stanzas, etc. Then, one of my friends, the one with the Stanza, bought a new '89 Escort. We raced once, and it was pretty much a dead heat.
Oh c'mon! You wouldn't want one of these awesome Russkie pseudo-Packards? Would you believe this is a 1981 model?
Yeah, I remember a lot of those cars. When my dad got a '92 CrownVic with the 190hp 4.6, I thought it was a rocket compared to anything I routinely got to drive.
Hazzard County, GA liked them so much they bought about a dozen each week from 1979 through 1985!
I think Mopar actually did a pretty good job at disguising the fact that they were related.
I've heard that one of the most expensive parts to redesign on a car is the area around the firewall/cowl/windshield/A-pillars. Chrysler at least redid the windshield and A-pillars, and also gave the cars new dashboards. When Ford massaged the Torino into the LTD-II, they didn't even do that. However, the Torino windshield and A-pillars were already somewhat squared-off, so they blended fairly well into the crisper, more angular '77 sheetmetal.
Unfortunately though, to give the R-body full-sized interior room, they had to stretch the wheelbase out, which again wasn't so bad for the Chryslers. But I think it made the St. Regis and the '80-81 Gran Fury too big for most buyers.
Another problem is that it lessened the differences between the more prestigious cars and the cheaper ones. With GM, if you bought an Electra/98/DeVille, you got a car that was bigger inside than a Caprice/Impala/et al. The difference was mainly in the back seat, which had a bit more legroom. But with the Mopars, they were all the same size inside, from the cheapest Gran Fury on up to the most opulent NYer 5th Ave.
Yep, they just denied Subaru a joint venture there with Chery, saying that Toyota already has their limit of JVs, even though Toyota only holds a small minority stake in Subaru.
Edit to add link:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-08/china-said-likely-to-reject-toyota-affi- liate-s-joint-venture.html
Also some on these forums believe it is OKAY to do anything and everything as long as you were ordered to do so by your Government. They were all just following orders.
Similar to how our gov't ordered everyone to bailout the auto industry against most people's better judgement and wishes.
Maybe they are sophisticated, they are more than happy to allow us to provide, virtually gratis, a huge part of their defense for the past 66 years - because some people in leadership here hold huge egos about old events. Who is winning? Oh yeah, Germany is once again the dominant power in Europe, all while receiving less postwar aid than France or Britain. Doh.
I guess they bribed the right ones?
Those 1930s Benzes are classics in their own right. The Mercedes most associated with [non-permissible content removed] Germany was the 770K. Just because Al Capone or any number of gangsters had V-16 Cadillacs doesn't make one any less desirable to me!
The China figures, however, carry a notable asterisk. They include sales arising from its nine China joint-ventures, including Shanghai General Motors Co., SAIC-GM-Wuling Automobile Co., and Shanghai GM Dong Yue Motors Co.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110124/COPY01/301249945/148- - - 9#ixzz1C4SOltkt
So GM has 9, and Toyota (with Subaru) is limited to just 2?
Good point. There are certainly many cars over the years I'd love to have in my dream garage, but most of them wouldn't be my preferred daily driver. Going back to the coach builder days are truly interesting. Back then, almost anything imaginable was an option, all it took was $$.
Either the History channel or the Smithsonian channel had a documentary on Rolls Royces that were exported to India IIRC prior to WWII. It was quite fascinating.
Well, I guess one of our domestic companies can do something effectively;)
You probably include me in that group. However, even though I do believe (correctly) that US cars stink. I have never really said US trucks are horrible. I don't trust them, but it seems we have more know how and ability/competence to make a good truck in the US than we do a car (an example is US built Honda cars don't seem to be quite as good, but those Tundras are fine from TX). I wouldn't mind tools, electronics, or other items from the US. In fact, I'd prefer it be made in the USA to most other places (cars excepted due to bad experience).
I'd rather have almost any good made in the USA over China or Mexico (can't tell how much of the Neon came from Mexico, but I know the windows/glass said hecho en Mexico on it, so guilty by association, plus, I atrribute a lot of VW's quality woes from using Mexico to build their cars). I have some quality electronics/audio equipment from China, but for the most part, my best high-end stuff was made in Japan. My awesome quality sunglasses (Maui Jim) were made in Italy. My fantastic quality OZ Racing wheels were made in Italy.
Funny when I was at the COACH outlet (a store that sells $100-$1,000 purses/handbags), I noticed not only were all the bags made in China (as most clothes type products seem to be), but also the men's wallets and belts were too (one belt came from India). All of the sunglasses I looked at were made in China. I know that Chinese sunglasses are not good quality. I don't think Italy makes cheap sunglasses. Needless to say, I didn't buy anything from Coach, and neither did my better half thank goodness.
So while I prefer my cars from Japan or Germany, my sunglasses from Italy, and my electronics from Japan, I'd much rather get something Made in USA (other than car), over something made in China, Bangladesh, Mexico, or India. And all that is simply based on ownership experience.
Man, I love my MJs. Best sunglasses I've ever had. Great for sunny days out on the lake.
We have a leather sofa from Italy and it's fantastic. Expensive, but it's incredibly well made.
I have never really said US trucks are horrible. I don't trust them, but it seems we have more know how and ability to make a good truck in the US than we do a car (an example is US built Honda's don't seem to be quite as good, but those Tundras are fine from TX).
No question IMO the US makes the best pickups. I said best, not most reliable. I know the Tundra's are very reliable. I can't comment on how durable they are, but the mechanical and build quality on them are quite good.
But the US makes just offer configurations, options, and capabilities the Tundra/Titian can't match. That doesn't make the imports bad trucks. Actually for the guy who just needs to tow a boat or run to HD on the weekends the Tundra is great. But for the contractor, farmer, RV'r, etc, who need/want to tow a 15k lb 5th wheel or gooseneck trailer the domestic are the only way to go.
Even in 1/2 ton config, the options and configurations available are impressive.
Buick would be dead for one thing. :sick:
The company I worked for at the beginning of this year did a lot of business with all 3 of these units, easily overshadowing the amount of business that came out of their American plants...
Owned a few Buicks and the plain LeSabre 1994 did a quick 111K mi with new tires, brakes, and 4 heavy duty struts around 50k miles..Engine had oil changes @5k intervals..owned about 24 mos..
First Buick was a new 1973 LeSabre w/455 V-8, suffered from rod knocks, Buick dealer short-blocked it, same condition, broomed the beast after 35k miles and followed with 3 Pontiac Grand Prixs, 1974, 1976, and 1977, all LJ models with 455 V-8s..broomed each one after 90k miles..Great cars.
Next was a 1981 Buick Rivera V-8, gone after 20k miles, a joke. Bought the wife a 1987 Buick Electra T-Type, another joke of a car..sold after 30k miles..
Last one to mention was a 1992 Buick Regal Gran Sport, put a quick 95k miles, and at speed it was like sitting in a "rocking chair", cupped tires on rear due to soft suspension, too much travel..Goodyear Tire was outstanding with free tires!!!!
After the 1971 SS350 Camaro which endured a quick 90k miles w/o any driveline/engine issues, I guess I was spoiled...
I stay away from the Buick dealer, ex Pontiac dealer locally, and my 2006 Grand Prix GT is a far cry of the GPs of the 70s..But the Mustang GT has filled the spot for fun driving..
Somehow GM has lost it's luster..must be it's China smell....could be the POTUS influence...you think?????
They made my Neon seem Bank Vault tight in comparison! LOL.