I agree with this excellent post. That is why their sales are increasing.
The current culture includes incentive disease and advertising that is off-mark, afaic. Get with the current reality of winning customers because you care. THAT would "Run Deep" for sure! May I dare say Hyundai/Kia are more than a bit more sensitive to the current economic difficulties that more than a few consumers are faced with. Also, UAW disease still lurks throughout.
3yrs./36K miles? If they can't back ALL of their products with Industry-Leading warranties, it says a whole lot about their culture.
Hopefully the improvements continue.
BTW, my daughters friend just bought a '12 Focus Titanium. It is serious competition to GM, et al!
steel58, I apologize for your frustrations. Have you spoke with Customer Assistance? Has your dealer involved technical assistance? Can you please email me your VIN? I look forward to your response. Christina GM Customer Service
Customer Response:
Re: Grwwww darn A/C! [gmcustsvc] by steel58 Sep 07, 2011 (5:21 pm) Replying to: gmcustsvc (Sep 07, 2011 5:02 pm) Christina, My dealer, which is located in Woodland Hills, Ca., has not involved technical assistance and I'm just starting this process with Customer Assistance. The problems involving my 2008 Buick Enclave over the last 3 years (but especially since March of this year) include AC not working, CD/DVD player breaking down, steering column noise, window insulation falling apart, and (as of yesterday's visit) leaking/broken water pump causing my engine to overheat.
I'm always amazed when I read stuff like this. I have a bottom-feeder '08 Cobalt with 50K miles. AC is ice cold. No steering column noises. Nothing falling off it. And it's made by the same company, only it's their very cheapest U.S.-built offering. How does this stuff happen...other than '08 was the first year of the Buick SUV. You know what they say about that...ask owners of '07 Camry V6's.
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You and me are Golden with A/C. I also have 51K miles on the '08 CR-V. A/C is Ice COLD! No issues WHATSOEVER! And it's made by the same company as the Odyssey. Go figure!
Oh well, Glad I never bought a Buick! Feel bad for the guy anyway. :lemon:
The main problem I recall from the 07 v6 Camry was a trans shifting issue that was fixed with a reflash. Ford had a similar problem with the 07 expedition 6 speed. Mine did all sorts of goofy things until Ford fixed it with a reflash.
Bottom line is you should buy the car you like best. If the warranty isn't good enough, then buy an extended that is far more comprehensive than those extended powertrain warranties that generally don't cover most things that actually fail under 100k miles.
LOL, I've had a few vehicles like that. Expedition is borderline. It still has time to redeem itself, and at 91k miles it's only left me stranded once due to the battery going south a few weeks ago.
Other than three Studebakers, I've owned 13 new Chevrolets and have never, ever purchased an extended warranty on any of them and have not regretted it. I'd never buy one, either.
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I've owned 13 new Chevrolets and have never, ever purchased an extended warranty on any of them and have not regretted it. I'd never buy one, either.
On that we can agree 100%. If you feel like you have to buy an extended warranty, you probably shouldn't buy that vehicle in the first place. You should avoid it and steer clear all together. Not only will the warranty take whatever you choose into "uncompetitive pricing territory," but those companies have a tendancy to disappear when you need them.
You should buy stuff where you don't believe the extended warranty will be necessary.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Would it only have been the trans?...enough to make CR give the car an overall 'worse than average'? I honestly don't remember.
I don't know for sure. I know the early 07 Camry v6 trans had two issues. Very early builds had a snap ring problem. I believe those were recalled and fixed. Then there was a more wide spread shift "flare" problem that only affected the v6 to my knowledge. IIRC, that was fixed with a reflash with varying results.
Looking a CU. It seems the pre 07 Camry's are the cars to have. They are basically all red dots across the board. Things certainly went down hill in 07. The '10 v6 model is actually rated worse than average overall. The 07-09's are rated average.
I think the real hate came along when quality faltered and people felt betrayed. If they were hated when they were so easily number one, as they once were..they wouldn't have been number one.
I'll do it when I can, Iluv. Kinda hetic right now. We're fixin to do the road trip to the Grand Canyon. The German Shepherd, Major, is staying at a friend's farm nearby while we're away. Better for him to chew on cows than my arms! Don't know if the wife would go for an Evoque, but you never know! Looks like the tailgate height would work, though. Thanks!
Fair enough. The Evoque has caught my eye, but, I'm so smitten by Mitsubishi's and Kia's these days that straying from that formula is more than a longshot away, now.
Sometimes when I look at our 3 y/o Chow Chow I see German Shepherd staring back, in part, anyway. She's cinnamon-colored but she looks like she's really a creme-beige color with the brownish-reddish "cinnamon" color up on the surface of her coat and the same color for her ears. When you mentioned your German Shepherd I immediately perked my ears up at attention and sought to see a picture! They do place theirselves firmly under your skin these canines, that they do.
Yeah, the Evoque looks nice but we're not going anywhere away from our '08 Lancer GTS from Mitsubishi for a long time. Just passed 75,000 miles and she just had an oil change, micron cabin filter changed, air filter changed, license plate light bulb replaced, etc., done. And she's runnin' like the champ she is, too.
I do like the Evoque and will watch it from afar and read up on it to acquaint myself further, for now. Have fun on your Grand Canyon trip-I truly stood and stared the first time I saw it, and couldn't do anything else for several minutes. It is probably the most gorgeous sight in nature I have ever seen.
Oh, no doubt. I think the real quality problems started when the designs started emulating Japanese cars! My '85 Celebrity was probably my worst, but even then it didn't cost me much to run as my dealer did things outside of warranty for free.
I'm thinking I'm a bit older than you. I definitely remember folks hating GM for being big back then. And in the Studebaker hobby, I've absolutely met older members who saw GM (and others) 'bring down Studebaker' in their minds.
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And our boards here are much the more interesting for that......
LOL.
Actually, I forgot that I've bought one extended warranty. It was on my '98 Ford SVT Contour. IIRC, I negotiated a 75k warranty for $750. One of the smartest decisions I've made as it provided about $4k worth of work. I traded it it in at 75,001 mi.
Warranty or not doesn't change how I look at a car. Junk is junk. The Contour wasthe wrong car for my situation. It was a great driving car, but I put 75k on it in 2 1/2 years (I was in sales often driving 500-1k/wk) having an unreliable car was a major PITA.
I think the real hate came along when quality faltered and people felt betrayed.
True, most import drivers at one time drove domestics. They left for a reason. Lots of boomers drive imports. My parents and in-laws included. Most didn't switch just to switch. The D3 certainly helped with their decisions.
Things are changing now. Bottom line is, build something people want and and like for the right price and it will sell. This BS of blaming the media and consumers of bias against the D3 is purely making excuses.
The D3 are now making more competitive product and market share is increasing. What a concept. The Cruze/Focus have been killing the Corolla and will likely pass it for the year. Looks like the Fusion may finish ahead of the the Accord.
Looking at the Altima, even though it's been around a while, it's been taking share too as it was up 24.5% in August. Incredible.
Things are changing now. Bottom line is, build something people want and and like for the right price and it will sell. This BS of blaming the media and consumers of bias against the D3 is purely making excuses.
I do think an honest assessment of car-magazine reporting in the late '80's and later will show a bias towards what the then-younger writers considered 'hip'. I mean, honestly, raving word after word about the 'tactile feel' of switches, while mentioning nothing at all about the lack of interior or trunk room compared to the domestic in its price class, or stating how the Lumina APV's high-mounted stop lights looked silly while positively commenting on the Volvo's identical units, later. Or how about a mag raving about an import's turn signal stalk that contained high-low beams and wipers in one. I distinctly remember a reader writing in afterwards, "Wow, how unique...my '85 Buick had that". So there was some stupid B.S. by the writers. Please be able to admit that.
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It does make one wonder when a direct competitor will not offer the same warranty as another manufacturer, though. I have replaced wheel bearings on cars so I like that GM warrantied them for 100K miles or 5yrs., at least until this year's models. I don't think anybody else did that for that length of time.
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I mean, honestly, raving word after word about the 'tactile feel' of switches, while mentioning nothing at all about the lack of interior or trunk room compared to the domestic in its price class,
IMO, that was a valid point. I didn't have kids back then so didn't care about room in the back seat or trunk. I did/do care about "tactile feel" of switches and overall refinement. In the 80's and 90's those interior bits were just as likely to fall off as they were to work in a domestic.
My grandpa OTOH, just wanted a big, soft, floaty car. He couldn't hear the rattles or clicking of the turn signal stalk anyway, nor did he care. A small car was a cheap car in his eyes regardless of how good it may be.
I remember my buddy complaining about his Alero in that regard. The interior bits were junk. He had a flat and went to activate the hazards and the whole damn switch fell into the dash,. The car wasn't that old either. he had a 3 year old car with duct tape holding parts of the dash together. Guess what he replaced it with? It wasn't a GM product.
or stating how the Lumina APV's high-mounted stop lights looked silly while positively commenting on the Volvo's identical units, later.
Well come on. Those vans were not very good. Ugly to look at inside and out. GM never made a competitive minivan for family use (the Astro/safari made a good work van and conversion, but not something most soccer moms would want to drive everyday). If I was a journalist, I wouldn't be able to come up with one compliment on those dustbuster vans. The Chrysler vans were far superior in every way except for maybe reliability. They were all pretty bad back then in one way or another.
Sure I don't agree with everything the rags write. But I've never bought a vehicle based on a review either. I ignore the areas I don't care about and pay attention to those I do care about. Styling is subjective. If I like how a vehicle looks, I likely own't care where the 3rd brake light is located.
Ido care about how it actually performs and how refined it is.
It does make one wonder when a direct competitor will not offer the same warranty as another manufacturer, though.
It didn't stop you from buying GM when the likes of Toyota and Hyundai had a longer warranty. GM hasn't always have a 100k powertrain warranty.
I generally buy what I like the best for whatever price I want to spend. GM or Hyundai's warranty has zero influence on whether I'll buy one of their products. The product itself will determine that.
A lot of people don't want size, but quality. A couple extra cubic feet of trunk or interior space doesn't matter to some consumers, when the package itself is poorly assembled or is of low quality material. Please be able to admit that, too.
Regarding the stalk, I remember my grandma had an Olds of that era, she still had it when I started driving and I drove it a few times - I remember the snap-click feeling of that stalk made me think it was going to break. There's the tactile feel for you.
My mother had domestics for ages, mostly usually started off fine, but got troublesome as they aged. Then she jumped ship like all of her old lady friends, and bought a Toyota. Hasn't looked back. Camry has been trouble free. She didn't switch loyalties just for the hell of it, or to be "hip".
That reminds me of Karmanos (Compuware founder, all around big mouth) claiming there was some kind of "liberal media bias" against domestics. Made me laugh.
That being said, I am shocked how the Altima is selling. It's getting old, it's pretty boring, and huge amounts are rentals...must be some sweet leases out there.
My experience with cars starts of the 80s era. When I was a kid, we had both a Ciera and S-10 Blazer in the family. While the Ciera was comfortable and I don't recall it ever breaking down, even as a grade schooler I could tell it wasn't assembled very precisely - squeaks and rattles from new, and the Blazer, well, you can guess about the piece of engineering that was. Those were the last GM products in my family - Fords of the era while no more reliable seemed better built and more modern, and my dad developed a fixation on Chrysler trucks and minivans.
Did GM bring down Studebaker, or did Studebaker bring down Studebaker? Same can be asked for 25 years later - did a media conspiracy hurt the big 2.5, or did they hurt themselves?
I remember the snap-click feeling of that stalk made me think it was going to break. There's the tactile feel for you.
No kidding. GM's turn signal stalk sounded and felt like you were breaking someone's knuckle. Some people may not care about it. But when you get into something else and the switches and various controls are smooth and accurate, you notice. Well at least I do.
My experience with cars starts of the 80s era. When I was a kid, we had both a Ciera and S-10 Blazer in the family. While the Ciera was comfortable and I don't recall it ever breaking down, even as a grade schooler I could tell it wasn't assembled very precisely - squeaks and rattles from new, and the Blazer, well, you can guess about the piece of engineering that was. Those were the last GM products in my family - Fords of the era while no more reliable seemed better built and more modern, and my dad developed a fixation on Chrysler trucks and minivans.
I'm somewhat older than you Fin. But that was my experience as well. My parents and grandparents always drove domestics. The large cars were generally reliable and small ones generally weren't. I received my license in '87. I never realized how bad domestics actuallywere until I started having access to Accords, CRXs Civics, Maximas and low end 3 series BMWs in the late 80s to early 90s. Realize that I'm not like some on these board that appreciate large land yachts. I prefer smaller sporty cars, particularly prior to kids.
I think the domestics have improved drastically since those dark days and you're starting to see it in sales. Who ever thought GM would sell 20k compact cars a month without having to give them away? Same with Ford. They're selling more at a higher transaction price. It only took 30 years.
That being said, I am shocked how the Altima is selling. It's getting old, it's pretty boring, and huge amounts are rentals...must be some sweet leases out there.
Me too. It's not a bad car, but like you said, it's getting old. Nissan must be selling quite a few to rental fleets. I looked locally at the offers on the Altima and it's nothing special. $1,500 rebate and/or low interest at 1.9 for 60mos. Unless there is more hold back money or secret incentives for the dealer to move them, the rebate and finance offer doesn't seem overly aggressive to me.
Wouldn't that have been because most cars available that would work were US manufacturer cars in the 60's? I don't see that the idea that most people who tried out imports then had originally driven US brand cars is meaningful to the statistics.
>They switched for a reason.
Most of the reason was to get an econobox for higher gas mileage because the econoboxes were just that--boxes. Many, if not most, were manual transmissions, no AC, no power windows, no power brakes. Just a clutch and a fanbelt to wear out to quote a coworker who always laughed at how little he had to do to his old corolla. Compared to US cars of the era, many of which were being ordered with lots of the now accepted as requirement options there was little to go wrong with a tiny 4-cylinder, clutch, and fanbelt.
>Lots of boomers drive imports.
And that is germaine. Many of those switching to econoboxes stayed with the brands which started building larger cars more typical of the US built brands of the later times. Note how the tiny Honda and Datsun have evolved to have huge vehicles as part of their stable. Indeed, at the time of the 2008-2009 slowdown in auto sales for which GM is ridiculed for having a large part of their production, and sales, in large trucks and SUVs, some foreign brands were expanding into these profitable large vehicles to try to take some of the profitable money away from the US brands. Indeed, hadn't toyota built a large factory which they never opened because of the recession? But the US brands are ostracized for selling larger vehicles which don't get as good gas mileage and the critics overlook how the foreign brands were trying to increase their sales in those areas. Indeed, isn't part of a large vehicle plant in Indiana beings used to build toyota camrys?
Did Honda and Toyota ever have a longer warranty than GM? I honestly do not remember that.
Plus, and I say this respectfully, your response is diversionary. I wasn't talking about what kind of van a dustbuster was, I was talking about the taillights comments. Clearly biased...no other sane way to look at it.
I will say that like them or not, the dustbusters pioneered power sliding doors, modular seating, and composite body panels that didn't rust. Paint has held up well on them too over the decades. Geez, give some credit where credit is due. As I always say, things are usually not as bad on one side as they are good on the other...the truth is usually mid-way.
And I can say with 100% honesty, that I never had a turn signal stalk or any instrument panel switch fall off into my hands, nor do I know a soul who has ever told me that in person about their GM car. Only lots of "I knew somebody....". I'd much rather do with 'less tactile feel' (good grief) than putting friends or family in the back seat with zero legroom at the same price.
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I wonder if that was one of those global requirements GM executives had come up with like Lutz mentioned in his book. The movement and feedback from the switch probably had to be able to work at 90 below F. in Siberia and had to give audible and tactile feedback for hearing-impaired folks.
The 03 leSabre was the first I recall that had a smoother operation of the low/high, turn-signal switch.
Man, if diesel was born in '71 and is older than you, I feel bad that neither of you can remember '60's or even '70's cars from the first half of the decade, as new cars. You missed a wonderful period in automobiles and automobile marketing. Nothing more fun than new car introduction night when they kept the cars hidden 'til then.
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Most of the reason was to get an econobox for higher gas mileage because the econoboxes were just that--boxes.
Yeah, Accords, Altimas, and Camry's are econoboxes. The luxury brands of Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW each have routinely outsold our domestic luxury makes. I'm talking about the 80's and 90's. I was a little kid in 70's and don't remember many foreign vehicles from that period other the Datsun Zs and Beetles.
When lexus came out in the 80's, they just about ate everyone's lunch. In the late 80's and early 90's people paid more for a Honda, Toyota, and Nissan vs. a comparable GM or Ford vehicle.
Indeed, isn't part of a large vehicle plant in Indiana beings used to build toyota camrys?
I'm not sure, but I do know Toyota is using the Subaru plant in Lafayette, In to build Camrys.
Don't you agree that most people are followers, though? If a magazine says something's great, they're liable to follow? I know a friend whose parents bought a Lexus SC400 in the early '90's...for $45K. It looked and felt like a small car to me...right down to its wheels that looked like silver-painted plastic wheel covers. I'd take a wobby turn signal lever to having to look at those every day..and at that insane price. But hey, it was the latest thing.
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> He had a flat and went to activate the hazards and the whole damn switch fell into the dash,. The car wasn't that old either. he had a 3 year old car with duct tape holding parts of the dash together
You are bringing out good points, so I've been responding to your posts. Please don't feel I'm picking on your posts.
One question is did he buy the car new? I've been running some VINs in Ohio records for acquaintances who were told they bought a one-owner car. In one case the car 4 previous owners. In another it had made its way through BHPH stores, then appears to have been repaired for 1.2 years through ownership titling to get rid of a salvage title, and then sold 4 more times before they bought it as a one-owner vehicle. At least the owner saw things after buying it that made her think it had been repaired from an accident.
It would be nice if it had been repaired before he bought it. Even if a dealership repaired something in the dash and didn't reassemble or broke things and just put it back together, that's not good. But it's better than what likely is just poor engineering.
Did Honda and Toyota ever have a longer warranty than GM? I honestly do not remember that.
I don't think Honda ever had a longer warranty than GM. I don't know if they went to the standard 36k bumper to bumper warranty before GM or not. But Toyota and Nissan had the standard 36k bumper to bumper plus a powertrain warranty that was 5/60 for at least a decade. I know the Nissan Pathfinder I leased new in 2001 had a 5 year 60k powertrain warranty standard. None of the domestics offered that at the time. Well at least not Ford or GM (well I don't know about Lincoln or Cadillac).
I got into imports because I learned very early on that I really liked small cars that you could toss on the roads. I discovered this one evening when we had a big family party and it was time to drive grandma home and the last car in the driveway was my uncles Opel Kadette. I loved it immediately. Never did get an Opel and while my VW Rabbit had the fun driving dynamics it was a horribly unreliable car. My next step was a Honda Accord and that set the pace for a long time.
I will definitely check out domestics the next time around because now there are several that I find interesting.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Yes, he bought it new. I think it was an 01 or 02. Overall it was a mechanically reliable car. It was the interior bits that were substandard and squeaks and rattles were bad. He put 120k or so on it before selling it and buying a new 08 Civic.
He has routinely switched. He's had several GM vehicles, 2 honda's, a VW, and he loves the Chrysler minivan his wife drives and they are on their second, getting ready to buy a 3rd.
He's a friend going back to HS. One of the cars he had in HS was a rare bird. A 79 or 80 Buick Century turbo. It was one of those with the sloped back. I recall it having 3 lights that indicated turbo boost. By the time he bought it in the late 80's I don't know if the turbo actually provided any boost. But it did handle decently for that type of car. We had a 20mph S curve down the road from our subdivision and he got a ticket going 60 mph through it in that Century LOL.
Indeed, at the time of the 2008-2009 slowdown in auto sales for which GM is ridiculed for having a large part of their production, and sales, in large trucks and SUVs, some foreign brands were expanding into these profitable large vehicles to try to take some of the profitable money away from the US brands.
It wasn't long before the 2008 slowdown that I counted 43 models in the GM stable that offered a V8. Only 9 that didn't... GM was also trying to peddle one of the biggest jokes in history, Hummer, when gas prices had already been creeping up but yet nobody at GM brass saw it coming. Even your boy Putz thought the future of HUMVEE was bright.
And even after is was clear that GM was going CH11, they were still dragging their feet trying to find a buyer sucker to take it off their hands...
Sorry, GM earned all the criticism they recieved, in complete denial of what was actually going on and with the typical corporate arrogance.
Btw, how many GMT-900 models (full size trucks and SUV's) do they offer currently? Still way more than anyone...
Suburban Yukon Yukon XL Tahoe Escalade Escalde ESV Escalade EXT Avalanche Sierra - line Silverado - Line
:sick:
some foreign brands were expanding into these profitable large vehicles to try to take some of the profitable money away from the US brands.
Yes, they did but why not? Isn't a car companies mission to make money? Is the SUV and truck market "Sacred ground" that nobody but the Detroit 2 1/2 are supposed to sell? :confuse:
I don't blame GM for making these vehicles, there still is a market for many of them. Honestly I hope Dodge, Ford, and GM can continue making full-size truck and SUVs on a full frame. i wish they could offer a diesel option in something other than a 3/4 or 1 ton though.
Now GM probably has to many models based on the GMT-900 platform and I'll bet that will change going forward.
I can't help it, I still like full-size SUVs. I still prefer driving around in my '07 Expedition vs. my wife's '11 Taurus. The Expe is far more comfortable, and with the high belt line and huge pillars of the Taurus, the Expe is much easier to see out of and actually 'gasp' park. I would never attempt to parallel park the Taurus, but I do often in the Expe and it's easy. I hate backing out of a parking lot in the Taurus due to being almost impossible to see out the back. It doesn't have rear sonar or a camera. It really is a must on some of the newer cars.
Don't you agree that most people are followers, though?
Yeah, but most of them don't read Edmunds or Motor Trend either.
I know a friend whose parents bought a Lexus SC400 in the early '90's...for $45K. It looked and felt like a small car to me...right down to its wheels that looked like silver-painted plastic wheel covers. I'd take a wobby turn signal lever to having to look at those every day..and at that insane price. But hey, it was the latest thing.
That was an awesome car in its day. It was far better put together than a Lincoln Mark VIII or Cadillac Eldorado TC with refinement that was lacking.
Apparently GM though a wobbly turn signal was okay too and they lost market share for the next 20+ years. Now they can build a vehicle that's competitive in these areas and they are seeing success.
Comments
The current culture includes incentive disease and advertising that is off-mark, afaic. Get with the current reality of winning customers because you care. THAT would "Run Deep" for sure! May I dare say Hyundai/Kia are more than a bit more sensitive to the current economic difficulties that more than a few consumers are faced with. Also, UAW disease still lurks throughout.
3yrs./36K miles? If they can't back ALL of their products with Industry-Leading warranties, it says a whole lot about their culture.
Hopefully the improvements continue.
BTW, my daughters friend just bought a '12 Focus Titanium. It is serious competition to GM, et al!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
GM Reaching out:
steel58,
I apologize for your frustrations. Have you spoke with Customer Assistance? Has your dealer involved technical assistance? Can you please email me your VIN? I look forward to your response.
Christina
GM Customer Service
Customer Response:
Re: Grwwww darn A/C! [gmcustsvc] by steel58
Sep 07, 2011 (5:21 pm)
Replying to: gmcustsvc (Sep 07, 2011 5:02 pm)
Christina,
My dealer, which is located in Woodland Hills, Ca., has not involved technical assistance and I'm just starting this process with Customer Assistance. The problems involving my 2008 Buick Enclave over the last 3 years (but especially since March of this year) include AC not working, CD/DVD player breaking down, steering column noise, window insulation falling apart, and (as of yesterday's visit) leaking/broken water pump causing my engine to overheat.
My VIN #: 5GAER2371 8J230993
Mileage: 43,000
Brings home distant memories to me!!
Regards,
OW
At the risk of repeating, there are THOUSANDS of Odyssey complaints on Edmunds.
Oh well, Glad I never bought a Buick! Feel bad for the guy anyway. :lemon:
Hope the Optima gets my CR-V vibes!
Regards,
OW
JK! :shades:
Regards,
OW
On that we can agree 100%. If you feel like you have to buy an extended warranty, you probably shouldn't buy that vehicle in the first place. You should avoid it and steer clear all together. Not only will the warranty take whatever you choose into "uncompetitive pricing territory," but those companies have a tendancy to disappear when you need them.
You should buy stuff where you don't believe the extended warranty will be necessary.
I don't know for sure. I know the early 07 Camry v6 trans had two issues. Very early builds had a snap ring problem. I believe those were recalled and fixed. Then there was a more wide spread shift "flare" problem that only affected the v6 to my knowledge. IIRC, that was fixed with a reflash with varying results.
Looking a CU. It seems the pre 07 Camry's are the cars to have. They are basically all red dots across the board. Things certainly went down hill in 07. The '10 v6 model is actually rated worse than average overall. The 07-09's are rated average.
Many 70s-90s products earned some hate, IMO
All of the manufacturers sell a more comprehensive warranty. Unless Ford or GM etc. goes belly up then the warranty is good.
I don't buy warranties either and the warranty has never been a factor when I purchase a vehicle.
And our boards here are much the more interesting for that......
Fair enough. The Evoque has caught my eye, but, I'm so smitten by Mitsubishi's and Kia's these days that straying from that formula is more than a longshot away, now.
Sometimes when I look at our 3 y/o Chow Chow I see German Shepherd staring back, in part, anyway. She's cinnamon-colored but she looks like she's really a creme-beige color with the brownish-reddish "cinnamon" color up on the surface of her coat and the same color for her ears. When you mentioned your German Shepherd I immediately perked my ears up at attention and sought to see a picture! They do place theirselves firmly under your skin these canines, that they do.
Yeah, the Evoque looks nice but we're not going anywhere away from our '08 Lancer GTS from Mitsubishi for a long time. Just passed 75,000 miles and she just had an oil change, micron cabin filter changed, air filter changed, license plate light bulb replaced, etc., done. And she's runnin' like the champ she is, too.
I do like the Evoque and will watch it from afar and read up on it to acquaint myself further, for now. Have fun on your Grand Canyon trip-I truly stood and stared the first time I saw it, and couldn't do anything else for several minutes. It is probably the most gorgeous sight in nature I have ever seen.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Oh, no doubt. I think the real quality problems started when the designs started emulating Japanese cars! My '85 Celebrity was probably my worst, but even then it didn't cost me much to run as my dealer did things outside of warranty for free.
I'm thinking I'm a bit older than you. I definitely remember folks hating GM for being big back then. And in the Studebaker hobby, I've absolutely met older members who saw GM (and others) 'bring down Studebaker' in their minds.
LOL.
Actually, I forgot that I've bought one extended warranty. It was on my '98 Ford SVT Contour. IIRC, I negotiated a 75k warranty for $750. One of the smartest decisions I've made as it provided about $4k worth of work. I traded it it in at 75,001 mi.
Warranty or not doesn't change how I look at a car. Junk is junk. The Contour wasthe wrong car for my situation. It was a great driving car, but I put 75k on it in 2 1/2 years (I was in sales often driving 500-1k/wk) having an unreliable car was a major PITA.
True, most import drivers at one time drove domestics. They left for a reason. Lots of boomers drive imports. My parents and in-laws included. Most didn't switch just to switch. The D3 certainly helped with their decisions.
Things are changing now. Bottom line is, build something people want and and like for the right price and it will sell. This BS of blaming the media and consumers of bias against the D3 is purely making excuses.
The D3 are now making more competitive product and market share is increasing. What a concept. The Cruze/Focus have been killing the Corolla and will likely pass it for the year. Looks like the Fusion may finish ahead of the the Accord.
Looking at the Altima, even though it's been around a while, it's been taking share too as it was up 24.5% in August. Incredible.
I do think an honest assessment of car-magazine reporting in the late '80's and later will show a bias towards what the then-younger writers considered 'hip'. I mean, honestly, raving word after word about the 'tactile feel' of switches, while mentioning nothing at all about the lack of interior or trunk room compared to the domestic in its price class, or stating how the Lumina APV's high-mounted stop lights looked silly while positively commenting on the Volvo's identical units, later. Or how about a mag raving about an import's turn signal stalk that contained high-low beams and wipers in one. I distinctly remember a reader writing in afterwards, "Wow, how unique...my '85 Buick had that". So there was some stupid B.S. by the writers. Please be able to admit that.
IMO, that was a valid point. I didn't have kids back then so didn't care about room in the back seat or trunk. I did/do care about "tactile feel" of switches and overall refinement. In the 80's and 90's those interior bits were just as likely to fall off as they were to work in a domestic.
My grandpa OTOH, just wanted a big, soft, floaty car. He couldn't hear the rattles or clicking of the turn signal stalk anyway, nor did he care. A small car was a cheap car in his eyes regardless of how good it may be.
I remember my buddy complaining about his Alero in that regard. The interior bits were junk. He had a flat and went to activate the hazards and the whole damn switch fell into the dash,. The car wasn't that old either. he had a 3 year old car with duct tape holding parts of the dash together. Guess what he replaced it with? It wasn't a GM product.
or stating how the Lumina APV's high-mounted stop lights looked silly while positively commenting on the Volvo's identical units, later.
Well come on. Those vans were not very good. Ugly to look at inside and out. GM never made a competitive minivan for family use (the Astro/safari made a good work van and conversion, but not something most soccer moms would want to drive everyday). If I was a journalist, I wouldn't be able to come up with one compliment on those dustbuster vans. The Chrysler vans were far superior in every way except for maybe reliability. They were all pretty bad back then in one way or another.
Sure I don't agree with everything the rags write. But I've never bought a vehicle based on a review either. I ignore the areas I don't care about and pay attention to those I do care about. Styling is subjective. If I like how a vehicle looks, I likely own't care where the 3rd brake light is located.
Ido care about how it actually performs and how refined it is.
It didn't stop you from buying GM when the likes of Toyota and Hyundai had a longer warranty. GM hasn't always have a 100k powertrain warranty.
I generally buy what I like the best for whatever price I want to spend. GM or Hyundai's warranty has zero influence on whether I'll buy one of their products. The product itself will determine that.
Regarding the stalk, I remember my grandma had an Olds of that era, she still had it when I started driving and I drove it a few times - I remember the snap-click feeling of that stalk made me think it was going to break. There's the tactile feel for you.
That reminds me of Karmanos (Compuware founder, all around big mouth) claiming there was some kind of "liberal media bias" against domestics. Made me laugh.
That being said, I am shocked how the Altima is selling. It's getting old, it's pretty boring, and huge amounts are rentals...must be some sweet leases out there.
Did GM bring down Studebaker, or did Studebaker bring down Studebaker? Same can be asked for 25 years later - did a media conspiracy hurt the big 2.5, or did they hurt themselves?
No kidding. GM's turn signal stalk sounded and felt like you were breaking someone's knuckle. Some people may not care about it. But when you get into something else and the switches and various controls are smooth and accurate, you notice. Well at least I do.
I'm somewhat older than you Fin. But that was my experience as well. My parents and grandparents always drove domestics. The large cars were generally reliable and small ones generally weren't. I received my license in '87. I never realized how bad domestics actuallywere until I started having access to Accords, CRXs Civics, Maximas and low end 3 series BMWs in the late 80s to early 90s. Realize that I'm not like some on these board that appreciate large land yachts. I prefer smaller sporty cars, particularly prior to kids.
I think the domestics have improved drastically since those dark days and you're starting to see it in sales. Who ever thought GM would sell 20k compact cars a month without having to give them away? Same with Ford. They're selling more at a higher transaction price. It only took 30 years.
Me too. It's not a bad car, but like you said, it's getting old. Nissan must be selling quite a few to rental fleets. I looked locally at the offers on the Altima and it's nothing special. $1,500 rebate and/or low interest at 1.9 for 60mos. Unless there is more hold back money or secret incentives for the dealer to move them, the rebate and finance offer doesn't seem overly aggressive to me.
Wouldn't that have been because most cars available that would work were US manufacturer cars in the 60's? I don't see that the idea that most people who tried out imports then had originally driven US brand cars is meaningful to the statistics.
>They switched for a reason.
Most of the reason was to get an econobox for higher gas mileage because the econoboxes were just that--boxes. Many, if not most, were manual transmissions, no AC, no power windows, no power brakes. Just a clutch and a fanbelt to wear out to quote a coworker who always laughed at how little he had to do to his old corolla. Compared to US cars of the era, many of which were being ordered with lots of the now accepted as requirement options there was little to go wrong with a tiny 4-cylinder, clutch, and fanbelt.
>Lots of boomers drive imports.
And that is germaine. Many of those switching to econoboxes stayed with the brands which started building larger cars more typical of the US built brands of the later times. Note how the tiny Honda and Datsun have evolved to have huge vehicles as part of their stable. Indeed, at the time of the 2008-2009 slowdown in auto sales for which GM is ridiculed for having a large part of their production, and sales, in large trucks and SUVs, some foreign brands were expanding into these profitable large vehicles to try to take some of the profitable money away from the US brands. Indeed, hadn't toyota built a large factory which they never opened because of the recession? But the US brands are ostracized for selling larger vehicles which don't get as good gas mileage and the critics overlook how the foreign brands were trying to increase their sales in those areas. Indeed, isn't part of a large vehicle plant in Indiana beings used to build toyota camrys?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Plus, and I say this respectfully, your response is diversionary. I wasn't talking about what kind of van a dustbuster was, I was talking about the taillights comments. Clearly biased...no other sane way to look at it.
I will say that like them or not, the dustbusters pioneered power sliding doors, modular seating, and composite body panels that didn't rust. Paint has held up well on them too over the decades. Geez, give some credit where credit is due. As I always say, things are usually not as bad on one side as they are good on the other...the truth is usually mid-way.
And I can say with 100% honesty, that I never had a turn signal stalk or any instrument panel switch fall off into my hands, nor do I know a soul who has ever told me that in person about their GM car. Only lots of "I knew somebody....". I'd much rather do with 'less tactile feel' (good grief) than putting friends or family in the back seat with zero legroom at the same price.
'61 VW Beetle
'67 VW Squareback
'73 Toyota Corona
'72 MB 220D
'83 Toyota Celica
'91 Toyota Camry
'03 Hyundai Sonata
Not sure why they've gravitated towards imports for their family vehicle - my dad has owned the same Chevy truck that he bought new in 1970.
I wonder if that was one of those global requirements GM executives had come up with like Lutz mentioned in his book. The movement and feedback from the switch probably had to be able to work at 90 below F. in Siberia and had to give audible and tactile feedback for hearing-impaired folks.
The 03 leSabre was the first I recall that had a smoother operation of the low/high, turn-signal switch.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Please see my post #17738 above.
Man, if diesel was born in '71 and is older than you, I feel bad that neither of you can remember '60's or even '70's cars from the first half of the decade, as new cars. You missed a wonderful period in automobiles and automobile marketing. Nothing more fun than new car introduction night when they kept the cars hidden 'til then.
Yeah, Accords, Altimas, and Camry's are econoboxes. The luxury brands of Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW each have routinely outsold our domestic luxury makes. I'm talking about the 80's and 90's. I was a little kid in 70's and don't remember many foreign vehicles from that period other the Datsun Zs and Beetles.
When lexus came out in the 80's, they just about ate everyone's lunch. In the late 80's and early 90's people paid more for a Honda, Toyota, and Nissan vs. a comparable GM or Ford vehicle.
Indeed, isn't part of a large vehicle plant in Indiana beings used to build toyota camrys?
I'm not sure, but I do know Toyota is using the Subaru plant in Lafayette, In to build Camrys.
You are bringing out good points, so I've been responding to your posts. Please don't feel I'm picking on your posts.
One question is did he buy the car new? I've been running some VINs in Ohio records for acquaintances who were told they bought a one-owner car. In one case the car 4 previous owners. In another it had made its way through BHPH stores, then appears to have been repaired for 1.2 years through ownership titling to get rid of a salvage title, and then sold 4 more times before they bought it as a one-owner vehicle. At least the owner saw things after buying it that made her think it had been repaired from an accident.
It would be nice if it had been repaired before he bought it. Even if a dealership repaired something in the dash and didn't reassemble or broke things and just put it back together, that's not good. But it's better than what likely is just poor engineering.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't think Honda ever had a longer warranty than GM. I don't know if they went to the standard 36k bumper to bumper warranty before GM or not. But Toyota and Nissan had the standard 36k bumper to bumper plus a powertrain warranty that was 5/60 for at least a decade. I know the Nissan Pathfinder I leased new in 2001 had a 5 year 60k powertrain warranty standard. None of the domestics offered that at the time. Well at least not Ford or GM (well I don't know about Lincoln or Cadillac).
No worries:) I enjoy the friendly debate.
I will definitely check out domestics the next time around because now there are several that I find interesting.
Yes, he bought it new. I think it was an 01 or 02. Overall it was a mechanically reliable car. It was the interior bits that were substandard and squeaks and rattles were bad. He put 120k or so on it before selling it and buying a new 08 Civic.
He has routinely switched. He's had several GM vehicles, 2 honda's, a VW, and he loves the Chrysler minivan his wife drives and they are on their second, getting ready to buy a 3rd.
He's a friend going back to HS. One of the cars he had in HS was a rare bird. A 79 or 80 Buick Century turbo. It was one of those with the sloped back. I recall it having 3 lights that indicated turbo boost. By the time he bought it in the late 80's I don't know if the turbo actually provided any boost. But it did handle decently for that type of car. We had a 20mph S curve down the road from our subdivision and he got a ticket going 60 mph through it in that Century LOL.
It wasn't long before the 2008 slowdown that I counted 43 models in the GM stable that offered a V8. Only 9 that didn't... GM was also trying to peddle one of the biggest jokes in history, Hummer, when gas prices had already been creeping up but yet nobody at GM brass saw it coming. Even your boy Putz thought the future of HUMVEE was bright.
"Hummer is a very profitable brand for General Motors, very profitable."
And even after is was clear that GM was going CH11, they were still dragging their feet trying to find a
buyersucker to take it off their hands...Sorry, GM earned all the criticism they recieved, in complete denial of what was actually going on and with the typical corporate arrogance.
Btw, how many GMT-900 models (full size trucks and SUV's) do they offer currently? Still way more than anyone...
Suburban
Yukon
Yukon XL
Tahoe
Escalade
Escalde ESV
Escalade EXT
Avalanche
Sierra - line
Silverado - Line
:sick:
some foreign brands were expanding into these profitable large vehicles to try to take some of the profitable money away from the US brands.
Yes, they did but why not? Isn't a car companies mission to make money? Is the SUV and truck market "Sacred ground" that nobody but the Detroit 2 1/2 are supposed to sell? :confuse:
This is perhaps the best post ever from this thread. :shades:
Suburban
Yukon
Yukon XL
Tahoe
Escalade
Escalde ESV
Escalade EXT
Avalanche
I don't blame GM for making these vehicles, there still is a market for many of them. Honestly I hope Dodge, Ford, and GM can continue making full-size truck and SUVs on a full frame. i wish they could offer a diesel option in something other than a 3/4 or 1 ton though.
Now GM probably has to many models based on the GMT-900 platform and I'll bet that will change going forward.
I can't help it, I still like full-size SUVs. I still prefer driving around in my '07 Expedition vs. my wife's '11 Taurus. The Expe is far more comfortable, and with the high belt line and huge pillars of the Taurus, the Expe is much easier to see out of and actually 'gasp' park. I would never attempt to parallel park the Taurus, but I do often in the Expe and it's easy. I hate backing out of a parking lot in the Taurus due to being almost impossible to see out the back. It doesn't have rear sonar or a camera. It really is a must on some of the newer cars.
Not nearly as bad as the Grand Caravan, to be fair.
Best odds in a minivan in terms of reliability is the Sienna, though.
Yeah, but most of them don't read Edmunds or Motor Trend either.
I know a friend whose parents bought a Lexus SC400 in the early '90's...for $45K. It looked and felt like a small car to me...right down to its wheels that looked like silver-painted plastic wheel covers. I'd take a wobby turn signal lever to having to look at those every day..and at that insane price. But hey, it was the latest thing.
That was an awesome car in its day. It was far better put together than a Lincoln Mark VIII or Cadillac Eldorado TC with refinement that was lacking.
Apparently GM though a wobbly turn signal was okay too and they lost market share for the next 20+ years. Now they can build a vehicle that's competitive in these areas and they are seeing success.