And for the last time (well, probably not) CU was started by ralph nader, a liberal, GM hater of the first order of magnititude. And that's still the culture at CU.
So funny....
Consumer's Union was founded in 1936.
Ralph Nader was born in ... lemme look that up ... 1934.
TWO YEARS OLD! WOW!
Now *that* is impressive! He was just a toddler!
Ralph Nader founded Public Citizen.
Don't let that stop you, go ahead and rant about how they are biased because their founder hates GM, LOL.
Edit: Steve beat me to it, the hosts have to be fact-checkers too, I guess!
I rented a normally equipped one last year, brand new - it had no problems, but I just couldn't imagine laying out 25K for it. 160K of them can't all be retail.
I believe 60-70% of Impala sales are to fleets. 67.9% in 2010
Looking at the retail sales, the Cam/Cords really outsell the Fusion/Malibu when people put their own money to use. But the link above is for 2010 not 2011.
I wish there was some way to see how many Sonics actually went out that way. The 4,200 recalled is a range they think might have the problem. I'd be curious how many actually show up this way, but I don't think that number will ever be out there.
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I can honestly say, I can't recall when I last had an Impala as a rental. I have however had Camrys, Ford Focuses, one Malibu, and a few Kia Souls this year.
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Didn't atexiera (I think) claim four or five recalls for the Cruze, after it was actually posted by someone that I must have made up the Sonata's recalls (example of infantile)?
You kept talking about how rough it would be to make four unscheduled stops.
They made one unsheduled stop.
Several of the "recalls" were not recalls but rather TSBs, but you seem to hate Hyundai so you'll ignore that again.
One thing is for sure... The missing pads didn't just fall out of an assembled caliper assembly. Anyone who has actually worked on front disk brakes understands how pads are retained in their calipers.
However, I doubt the vehicle assembly plant was guilty in this case, as I suspect the front axle assemblies are delivered fully assembled to the final assembly plant. And, there is really no good reason that anyone on the final assembly line would make a detailed inspection of the front axles.
I can't say why no one noticed the pads missing when driving the vehicle from that point onward.
What I really want to know is who assembled the front axle assemblies. Wouldn't it be ironic in the 3rd degree if those assemblies were made by a non-domestic supplier...one that also supplies foreign brands?!?!?
If all you want is a big, simple, inexpensive car, and can get a good deal on one, the Impala's not a bad choice. As for the rear seat legroom, I find it and just about anything based on the W-body to be horribly cramped in back. But, if you're more average height, it might not be too bad. I tend to judge interior room from my perspective, which would be setting the front seat for a 6'3" driver, and then trying to get a 6'3" passenger right behind them. But, I'm sure most people aren't using that same perspective when they're judging interior room!
Last year I had to drive our fleet Impala, which I think is a 2010, from the motor pool to our building. Now, I could find a lot to nitpick about it, but, if I had to, I could live with it. For the right price.
I guess that's just damning it with faint praise, though?
Good point, and it's the same for Toyota recalls BTW. I have a Sienna and it was recalled to check the chain that holds the spare tire for rust, but there was no rust.
It still counts as a recall, even though it did not have that problem.
The dealer actually washed my car and later replaced the chain anyway, just because it might rust.
A lot of people here assume RECALL=BAD but that's not the case at all. In fact I'm sure a lot of us would love nothing more than for an automaker to replace something that *might* go bad and wash our cars for free.
GM took care of you, Toyota took care of me. Lucky us!
The magazine calls them 'recalls'. That's all I know. It's on their website, check it out.
They might have had one unscheduled stop...the magazine that has a fleet of cars at their disposal, most likely...but at 7,500 miles per scheduled stop (assuming Hyundai is like most other manufacturers), don't you see that a retail customer could have had four unscheduled stops for those issues? If you look back over the posts, you'll see that I was called just short of a liar for saying 'four recalls'...and that is EXACTLY what the magazine said. I've never had a vehicle with four recalls, but it's hard to imagine that the notices for all four came at one time...though I admit it's possible.
Furthermore, I thumbed through the magazine, didn't buy it. I thought they did complain about unscheduled stops. But, as you most assuredly know, the crux of the original discussion was four recalls. Now, if you're saying the magazine considers a TSB a recall--I mean, letters aren't sent out for a TSB, right?--I suppose it's possible. But look what Hyundai lovers were saying:
1) There were no recalls (wrong) 2) Automobile Magazine never had a long-term wrap-up article on the Sonata on the racks in December (wrong) 3) The number 'four' was never used in conjunction with recalls (wrong).
Come on, now. Talk about needing fact-checkers.
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Wouldn't it be ironic in the 3rd degree if those assemblies were made by a non-domestic supplier...one that also supplies foreign brands?!?!?
Yes, but ... Balance...
Toyota can't use the excuse that a domestic supplier (Dana) made the frames prone to rust, or that CTS (also domestic) made those accelerator pedals here in the USA, etc.
So GM can't either.
Heck, if anything, rust would not show up until later, so I can see how that could pass inspection.
A missing brake pad?
Let's face it - there WAS no inspection. They obviously cut corners.
Find out who and how and fire their sorry behinds.
I don't know how Dana tested (or didn't?) the galvanization of the frames they put out, but someone obviously skipped that step, too, which is why Toyota got millions in a settlement. I bet the only reason they didn't get more is because Dana couldn't have afforded to pay to replace all of them.
That's pretty much how I'd describe the Impala. The only way I'd but one over other cars in that class is if it could be had extremely cheap.
And even then you're probably talking a large % depreciation in the 1st year or 2. I believe that is due to the fact that when rental Impalas start hitting the market, it just kills kills the value of non-rentals also. I'd look for a 2-3 year old Impala, with a little of the bumper-to-bumper left, in the $10K range. Then it would be worth it.
Not "might". They did have one single unscheduled stop. That's quoted from the article - one, for sure, not maybe.
Using the same magazine as a source, they contradict themselves as to the number of recalls for Sonatas from that model year. Remember, they list only two distinct recalls that could affect any particular car. The rest are TSBs.
So we have one confused/questionable source who made one stop.
I listed two other media sources with long-term Sonatas, one with zero stops and one with a single stop.
So in 120,000 miles combined, just two stops.
Doesn't seem out of the ordinary, no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
I don't recall calling you a liar, but I knew the "OMG 4 stops can you imagine" was not believable.
Helps to list a source so I do that whenever I can.
I didn't call anyone a liar, instead I hit the books and did my homwork/research. I searched NHTSA, the magazine in question plus two others that had long-term Sonatas.
Please tell me you are able to see that any hyperbole in your last comment pales in actuality to those I was put up against (and not only by you), detailed in post no. 20866. Surely you can concede that.
And even I admit that GM owns the Sonic recall...I won't blame it on a supplier or whomever, as you do with Toyota's frame rust problems.
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>That sucks for her, but it's totally off topic. >At least frame it in a comparison - % of engine failures vs. GM overall, else it doesn't mean anything.
Are the posts about how wonderful --insert favorite brand post here--cars are, without mitigating linkage to GM okay?
I'm sure if the host of the forum decides posts are too far off, he/she will jump in.
I see all of this just like when I misspoke about Lutz's book. I stated that Lutz had said that CR said that the Matrix was rated over it's twin Vibe; but in reality he said that media sources had done that. It was so much fun watching people work to discredit my erroneous CR link, I just let them roll. It was good sport. :confuse:
I conceded a while ago by adding "doesn't always" to my comment on the civilian/cop cars and later forgiving GM entirely when they stepped up to cover previously sold Saabs.
No ill will toward the D3 here. I was pro-bailout. I'm helping my dad buy a 200C in the next week or two. S model, folding hard top, Pentastar V6, fully loaded!
You're usually balanced but lately I think you've let the GM haters get to you. The 4 stops wasn't all - you said the 2010 Camry was below average (it was 2007, and they were merely Average).
You also grouped 2009-2010 recalls for Toyota as if they all happened in one year (2010, but it started in Nov 09).
You make good points but some times your facts are a bit off, and they don't need to be exaggerated to support the points you're trying to make in the first place.
We can agree to disagree about the Dana frames. Note that the Land Cruiser made in Japan did not have the same problem.
I did post that I had only heard, but did not see, that the 2010 Camry was rated 'worse than average' in reliability by CR. I can't stand opinions stated flatly as facts, and avoid doing so. I wouldn't pay to buy the book nor pay to look at their website. I'm pretty sure, though not certain, I do recall seeing the "worse than average" for the 2007 V6 model though, in the first year.
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General Motors Co is recalling 4,873 of its current year Chevrolet Sonic subcompact cars in the United States and Canada for possible missing front brake pads, the company and federal safety regulators said on Friday.
GM said it knows of no crashes or injuries due to the issue. GM said it is recalling the cars to see if inner or outer front brake pads are missing.
GM said that its research shows that between 20 and 30 of the recalled cars were sold without one of its brake pads. Of the total recalled, 4,296 were sold to U.S. customers and 577 to Canadian customers, GM said.
deprec in 5 yrs for Impala LT is 13,472. Depreciation for Accord EX is 13,923. Accord stickers for about $1300 more new with weaker V6 and 1 less gear in the auto. mpg ratings 20/30 Accord vs 18/30 Impala. TCO fuel cost is 22.5% higher for Impala. Maint costs are nearly double for the Impala. I just drove the Impala on a trip of 100 mi each way and got 33.9 mpg. 1500 rpm at 65 mph. Both cars are worth just under 50% of TMV after 5 yrs, 75k mi. Fuel use for Impala in TCO calcs comes out at 20.5 mpg. 15000*$3.30/$2407. I guess the assumption is you never get out of the city in it. 6th gear would be still unused after 5 yrs?
A two yr old one for $10k? TCO pegs $10k occurring between 6 and 7 yrs old for either car.
If it has to do with that, could it be that because a rental is most likely a base Sonic w/ a 1.8 as opposed to the 1.4 turbo that could be a difference?? The LS and LT come with 15" wheels standard. LT's can get 16", and the LTZ can get 17". Could the LT's or turbo cars come w/ bigger brakes???
I just saw an almost full picture of the new small Buick Encore CUV? What are they thinking? The car doesn't fit a Buick image and its kind of dorky looking like the Lexus CT CUV. Buick puts out a really nice looking Enclave and then follows with this goofy thing. I just don't get this one, especially when GM already has the much better looking small Equinox and Terrain CUV?
I can't find anything on the Chevrolet website that mentions any differences in the Sonic's brakes between models.
I only suggested it might be due to fleet cars because these cars sometimes have subtle, but very real differences from what you and I can buy from a dealer.
What I wonder is if this is how GM is trying to get their dealer network full complements of models w/o diluting the models.
All 3 Dealers (Chevy, Buick/GMC, and Caddy) get the Theta, but only in Chevy (Equinox) GMC (Terrain) and Caddy (SRX). No Buick. Rumor has it that the new Escalade will move to the Lambda, but so as not to dilute the platform, the Acadia may go. That would STILL give the 3 dealerships the platform.
So, Buick gets the Encore. I'm sure there will be a Chevy. Could it be that Caddy gets one too (ARX)??? Then GMC is left with just BOF's and the Terrain. But, all 3 dealers get BOF trucks (Escalade esv)
Consider this too when you hear that bailing out this company or this bank "was a net benefit to the economy by keeping jobs, blah, blah ..." If this is true then why doesn't the government simply bailout each and every company or individual in the country? Why not bailout Kodak next? Never let any entity fail, because it is all a net gain! Baloney! The results are in folks - the economy is only getting slightly better because of all the excess governement spending. The debt is increasing faster than the GDP. The negative side of the scale is getting added to faster than the positive side with these bailouts, and stimulus.
I see the bailouts as like the conservation of energy in thermodynamics. You can use more right now, but you are going to fall harder in the future. Kicking the can down the road again. Sort of like the kid studying all night for a test -- take the uppers, take the test, and then a really deep crash. We've taken the uppers, and boy are we going to pay for it later.
I wouldn't pay to buy the book nor pay to look at their website. I'm pretty sure, though not certain, I do recall seeing the "worse than average" for the 2007 V6 model though, in the first year.
That's my recollection as well. It was just average it wouldn't have been such a big deal. CR got egg on their face because the new Camry had been previously "recommended" because of Toyota's historical track record of highly reliable new product launches. And then the data came in and it was worse than average.
While I agree it is likely they are n assembly that is bolted on, my real concern is that they made it to at least one customer. I can even see it being missed in final inspection ( I am pretty sure they don't take the wheels off to check this on any final inspection, just adds another place for human error to occur). I do think it should have been noted by whoever moved the car after assembly, and if not by the transporter, by the real final inspection that the customer pays for, the pre delivery inspection at the dealership should have caught this even if it made it out of the plant that way ( I am sure that it isn't only GM that has had something missing on a car delivered to the dealer, but a true pre delivery inspection would catch these things, so although GM is not off the hook for sending the cars out this way ( they could get the assembler to check, but oops it is probably a robot that bolts it in, no manufactures these days inspect every part that comes into their plant before being assembled into the final product BTW. They all count on their suppliers to inspect the parts, and then it is only a sample inspected, the vast majority do not get inspected, a wonderful side effect of just in time inventory, and cost cutting, this is how Toyota got the truck framest that apparently didn't meet their specs too, they all rely on the suppliers to provide the quality they want while expecting the costs of the parts to drop with every order, strange how that causes problems for everyone). I do not absolve GM of blame, but the dealer is at fault here too, they tend to charge a couple of hundred forthe PDI and then don't perform it, that is a big problem as well ( and it may be, though somewhat unlikely, that the "non-domestic" brands dealers are better at following the procedure that the domestic ones, or it could just be the profit margins are extremely thin ( it part because everyone seems to want their cars for less than it cost the dealer) and the dealer that let the car out to a customer this way does the bare min. To make the car look good for the customer and doesn't do a proper inspection. I appear to have droned on here, but I hope I got my point across, yes it is bad that the cars left the factory this way, but there is no way they should have reached customers this way, the dealer as well as GM bear responsibility for this, and good on GM for recalling the cars instead of trying to sweep it under the rug BTW ( this goes for the Cruze steering wheel as well, which I only heard of one verified report of,much like the sonic brakes, though the report I read said there may be as many as 40 of the cars affected by it) in he old days they would have pretended it never happened. Scott
Excellent post! Yes, this recall demonstrates the wek points in the supply chain for ALL MANUFACTURERS.
Looks like quite a small universe of actual missing parts as you noted:
The recalled vehicles were assembled in the Orion Township, Michigan plant. GM suspected that the brake pads, which are a part of a subassembly of components, fell off before the cars were assembled and had remained unnoticed at the bottom of containers being shipped to the Orion Township factory. The company expects that the pads are missing in 20 to 30 of the recalled vehicles.
Don't know how you would miss the parts in the containers however. Receiver's job to inspect empties, as you know.
I would expect an Accord to bring more, but there's a lot left to question here, with various trim levels, etc.
But, this is a three-year old car for $15K, not a two-year old Impala for $10K.
Unscientifically here, also, is that I bet the actual purchase price of the Impala new would probably have been significantly less than the sticker, and I'm not sure that'd be the case with the Accord.
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Unscientifically here, also, is that I bet the actual purchase price of the Impala new would probably have been significantly less than the sticker, and I'm not sure that'd be the case with the Accord.
Overall, I'd say definitely. The rebates have to be higher on an Impala. Though my dad was able to get his '09 Accord EX-L v6 new for under invoice back then.
He was shopping the Accord vs a Fusion SEL, and a Camry Hybrid. He felt the Honda offered the best best deal overall.
With the Accord getting old, I'm sure they are getting more aggressive now too. Lots of competition in that segment.
Wow, the one dealer in your link also has an 2008 Impala for $11.8K. What on earth could cause that kind of discrepancy in price? Personally, I don't know if I'd buy an Impala rental car trade, but that's most likely what those $10K cars are.
I sure see a lot out and around in our 28K town. I think they're a favorite of older folks.
I'm surprised GM bothered to put the 3.6 and six-speed in them for 2012.
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Once again, if you have ever laid your hands onto a disk brake caliper assembly, you would know that the pads could not simply "fall out" into the packing container. In every setup I have ever seen on a passenger vehicle, the pads are held in place by the sliding section of the caliper, which is secured to the base by 2 bolts.
It's certainly possible they fell out before the caliper was assembled, but then they would be lying around on the floor, where they would (or certainly should) have been easily noticed.
As for the other posting, where the poster questioned the dealer not catching this in the pre-delivery inspection, my first thought would be... Why?
The car that started it all was a rental unit, which probably bypassed the normal dealer process, and secondly, I sincerely doubt if any brand's dealer checks to see if brake pads are installed (although GM dealers may start doing it now).
On a new car, if the dealer has to inspect items like brake pads, he might as well just build the car from parts and act as the final assembly plant. Let's face it, there isn't that much markup in new cars to warrant that kind of attention by a dealer.
What on earth could cause that kind of discrepancy in price?
I don't know. Call them and find out. I do know that a lot of Impalas are sold to fleets and rentals, and that hurts their overall resale. But 2010 Impalas as I showed in my 2nd link can be bought with full factory certified warranty with <30K miles for < $12K. I didn't do anything special in this search, it's a random smaple in time (not a 1 time flood car) ...
So if Impalas are being sold for $12K or less with negotiation, what do you think the dealers are buying them for at auction, or at trade-in? Probably < $10K, especially if they're not selling them certified. Consider that it was just last Oct. 2010, 15 months ago that the 2010 Impalas were leaving the lots. What was an Impala stickering for then? $25K at least? What could you get it for? deeply discounted to $19K? What's it worth today at trade-in to a dealer? <$10K? That is quite a loss.
Wow, the one dealer in your link also has an 2008 Impala for $11.8K. What on earth could cause that kind of discrepancy in price?
With a car like an Impala where the majority are sold to fleets, you end up with a bunch of LS and LT models available within a few years.
I just did a search for 09 Impala LTZs and the avg price is $17600. Those are a bit harder to find though as Autotrader only shows 13 within 100 miles of me. That's still a few thousand less than what an Accord Ex-L v6 would go for, but your not going to find a clean LTZ Impala for $10k unless it has a bunch of miles.
I did look at some of the interior pics of the used LTZ's and I will say they are not impressive. The interior looks drab and cheap. I remember looking at them in 06 and thinking the interior was a big upgrade over the previous Impalas, but it hasn't aged well IMO.
But for a $16,900 asking price on a 2009 Impala LTZ with 37k miles on it, that's hard to beat. I bet you can save another $1k to $1,500 on that price too. Sure you give up some things, but that still a lot of car for that kind of money.
Heck, I looked up used 2009 Honda Civic EX and the average was $16,400.
So, the Impala would certainly qualify as a used value.
I'm surprised GM bothered to put the 3.6 and six-speed in them for 2012.
The only reason I can think of is GM wanted to phase out 3.5/3.9 and 4speed trans production. I'd guess the Lucerne going away is part of that decision too.
Comments
So funny....
Consumer's Union was founded in 1936.
Ralph Nader was born in ... lemme look that up ... 1934.
TWO YEARS OLD! WOW!
Now *that* is impressive! He was just a toddler!
Ralph Nader founded Public Citizen.
Don't let that stop you, go ahead and rant about how they are biased because their founder hates GM, LOL.
Edit: Steve beat me to it, the hosts have to be fact-checkers too, I guess!
I believe 60-70% of Impala sales are to fleets. 67.9% in 2010
http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Statistics/StatsViewer.aspx?file=http%3a%2f%2fww- - - w.automotive-fleet.com%2ffc_resources%2fstats%2fAFFB11-24-car-reg.pdf&channel=
Looking at the retail sales, the Cam/Cords really outsell the Fusion/Malibu when people put their own money to use. But the link above is for 2010 not 2011.
That sucks for her, but it's totally off topic.
At least frame it in a comparison - % of engine failures vs. GM overall, else it doesn't mean anything.
You kept talking about how rough it would be to make four unscheduled stops.
They made one unsheduled stop.
Several of the "recalls" were not recalls but rather TSBs, but you seem to hate Hyundai so you'll ignore that again.
However, I doubt the vehicle assembly plant was guilty in this case, as I suspect the front axle assemblies are delivered fully assembled to the final assembly plant. And, there is really no good reason that anyone on the final assembly line would make a detailed inspection of the front axles.
I can't say why no one noticed the pads missing when driving the vehicle from that point onward.
What I really want to know is who assembled the front axle assemblies. Wouldn't it be ironic in the 3rd degree if those assemblies were made by a non-domestic supplier...one that also supplies foreign brands?!?!?
Last year I had to drive our fleet Impala, which I think is a 2010, from the motor pool to our building. Now, I could find a lot to nitpick about it, but, if I had to, I could live with it. For the right price.
I guess that's just damning it with faint praise, though?
Good point, and it's the same for Toyota recalls BTW. I have a Sienna and it was recalled to check the chain that holds the spare tire for rust, but there was no rust.
It still counts as a recall, even though it did not have that problem.
The dealer actually washed my car and later replaced the chain anyway, just because it might rust.
A lot of people here assume RECALL=BAD but that's not the case at all. In fact I'm sure a lot of us would love nothing more than for an automaker to replace something that *might* go bad and wash our cars for free.
GM took care of you, Toyota took care of me. Lucky us!
That's pretty much how I'd describe the Impala. The only way I'd but one over other cars in that class is if it could be had extremely cheap.
They might have had one unscheduled stop...the magazine that has a fleet of cars at their disposal, most likely...but at 7,500 miles per scheduled stop (assuming Hyundai is like most other manufacturers), don't you see that a retail customer could have had four unscheduled stops for those issues? If you look back over the posts, you'll see that I was called just short of a liar for saying 'four recalls'...and that is EXACTLY what the magazine said. I've never had a vehicle with four recalls, but it's hard to imagine that the notices for all four came at one time...though I admit it's possible.
Furthermore, I thumbed through the magazine, didn't buy it. I thought they did complain about unscheduled stops. But, as you most assuredly know, the crux of the original discussion was four recalls. Now, if you're saying the magazine considers a TSB a recall--I mean, letters aren't sent out for a TSB, right?--I suppose it's possible. But look what Hyundai lovers were saying:
1) There were no recalls (wrong)
2) Automobile Magazine never had a long-term wrap-up article on the Sonata on the racks in December (wrong)
3) The number 'four' was never used in conjunction with recalls (wrong).
Come on, now. Talk about needing fact-checkers.
It's getting so bad, I don't even believe the stuff I post. :P
Yes, but ... Balance...
Toyota can't use the excuse that a domestic supplier (Dana) made the frames prone to rust, or that CTS (also domestic) made those accelerator pedals here in the USA, etc.
So GM can't either.
Heck, if anything, rust would not show up until later, so I can see how that could pass inspection.
A missing brake pad?
Let's face it - there WAS no inspection. They obviously cut corners.
Find out who and how and fire their sorry behinds.
I don't know how Dana tested (or didn't?) the galvanization of the frames they put out, but someone obviously skipped that step, too, which is why Toyota got millions in a settlement. I bet the only reason they didn't get more is because Dana couldn't have afforded to pay to replace all of them.
:lemon: and :lemon: to both.
And even then you're probably talking a large % depreciation in the 1st year or 2. I believe that is due to the fact that when rental Impalas start hitting the market, it just kills kills the value of non-rentals also. I'd look for a 2-3 year old Impala, with a little of the bumper-to-bumper left, in the $10K range. Then it would be worth it.
Not "might". They did have one single unscheduled stop. That's quoted from the article - one, for sure, not maybe.
Using the same magazine as a source, they contradict themselves as to the number of recalls for Sonatas from that model year. Remember, they list only two distinct recalls that could affect any particular car. The rest are TSBs.
So we have one confused/questionable source who made one stop.
I listed two other media sources with long-term Sonatas, one with zero stops and one with a single stop.
So in 120,000 miles combined, just two stops.
Doesn't seem out of the ordinary, no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
I don't recall calling you a liar, but I knew the "OMG 4 stops can you imagine" was not believable.
Helps to list a source so I do that whenever I can.
I didn't call anyone a liar, instead I hit the books and did my homwork/research. I searched NHTSA, the magazine in question plus two others that had long-term Sonatas.
That's 4 sources for one single reply! :shades:
Please provide that quote in a post.
hy·per·bo·le/hīˈpərbəlē/
Noun:
Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
And even I admit that GM owns the Sonic recall...I won't blame it on a supplier or whomever, as you do with Toyota's frame rust problems.
It's got to be a seriously small fraction of the 4200 in the range they are checking.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Pretty thorough! Should be a Sonic QC Tech.!!
Regards,
OW
>At least frame it in a comparison - % of engine failures vs. GM overall, else it doesn't mean anything.
Are the posts about how wonderful --insert favorite brand post here--cars are, without mitigating linkage to GM okay?
I'm sure if the host of the forum decides posts are too far off, he/she will jump in.
I see all of this just like when I misspoke about Lutz's book. I stated that Lutz had said that CR said that the Matrix was rated over it's twin Vibe; but in reality he said that media sources had done that. It was so much fun watching people work to discredit my erroneous CR link, I just let them roll. It was good sport.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No ill will toward the D3 here. I was pro-bailout. I'm helping my dad buy a 200C in the next week or two. S model, folding hard top, Pentastar V6, fully loaded!
You're usually balanced but lately I think you've let the GM haters get to you. The 4 stops wasn't all - you said the 2010 Camry was below average (it was 2007, and they were merely Average).
You also grouped 2009-2010 recalls for Toyota as if they all happened in one year (2010, but it started in Nov 09).
You make good points but some times your facts are a bit off, and they don't need to be exaggerated to support the points you're trying to make in the first place.
We can agree to disagree about the Dana frames. Note that the Land Cruiser made in Japan did not have the same problem.
No, they are not.
I've asked certain people not to stray off topic, but that's the hosts' job.
Comparisons are OK, though. So search for a source that compares GM results to whoever else is mentioned, and that becomes relevant.
Good.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I totally agree...
I just put that comment in to point out that no car maker is in 100% total control of the chain of manufacture, even though they ARE 100% responsible.
Lear made the seats in my BMW Z4 Coupe, but if they malfunction, I am holding BMW responsible.
A missing brake pad?
Let's face it - there WAS no inspection. They obviously cut corners.
Find out who and how and fire their sorry behinds.
I couldn't agree more!
Oh, an for good reason...... :P
General Motors Co is recalling 4,873 of its current year Chevrolet Sonic subcompact cars in the United States and Canada for possible missing front brake pads, the company and federal safety regulators said on Friday.
GM said it knows of no crashes or injuries due to the issue. GM said it is recalling the cars to see if inner or outer front brake pads are missing.
GM said that its research shows that between 20 and 30 of the recalled cars were sold without one of its brake pads. Of the total recalled, 4,296 were sold to U.S. customers and 577 to Canadian customers, GM said.
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/sonic/2012/2012-chevrolet-sonic-recalled.htm- l
The vehicles were built at GM's Orion Township, Michigan assembly plant from June 2, 2011 through November 21, 2011.
June 2 to November 21 is quite a long time span to not know the quality control specifics of the components in question.... Almost 6 months.
The key may be this:
As I understand it, the problem was originally found on a rental fleet unit.
Could it be that the cars sold to rental fleets have a unique difference as far as the front brakes are concerned?
I have no idea. Seems logical, though...
I just drove the Impala on a trip of 100 mi each way and got 33.9 mpg. 1500 rpm at 65 mph.
Both cars are worth just under 50% of TMV after 5 yrs, 75k mi.
Fuel use for Impala in TCO calcs comes out at 20.5 mpg. 15000*$3.30/$2407. I guess the assumption is you never get out of the city in it. 6th gear would be still unused after 5 yrs?
A two yr old one for $10k? TCO pegs $10k occurring between 6 and 7 yrs old for either car.
I only suggested it might be due to fleet cars because these cars sometimes have subtle, but very real differences from what you and I can buy from a dealer.
All 3 Dealers (Chevy, Buick/GMC, and Caddy) get the Theta, but only in Chevy (Equinox) GMC (Terrain) and Caddy (SRX). No Buick. Rumor has it that the new Escalade will move to the Lambda, but so as not to dilute the platform, the Acadia may go. That would STILL give the 3 dealerships the platform.
So, Buick gets the Encore. I'm sure there will be a Chevy. Could it be that Caddy gets one too (ARX)??? Then GMC is left with just BOF's and the Terrain. But, all 3 dealers get BOF trucks (Escalade esv)
I see the bailouts as like the conservation of energy in thermodynamics. You can use more right now, but you are going to fall harder in the future. Kicking the can down the road again. Sort of like the kid studying all night for a test -- take the uppers, take the test, and then a really deep crash. We've taken the uppers, and boy are we going to pay for it later.
That's my recollection as well. It was just average it wouldn't have been such a big deal. CR got egg on their face because the new Camry had been previously "recommended" because of Toyota's historical track record of highly reliable new product launches. And then the data came in and it was worse than average.
I appear to have droned on here, but I hope I got my point across, yes it is bad that the cars left the factory this way, but there is no way they should have reached customers this way, the dealer as well as GM bear responsibility for this, and good on GM for recalling the cars instead of trying to sweep it under the rug BTW ( this goes for the Cruze steering wheel as well, which I only heard of one verified report of,much like the sonic brakes, though the report I read said there may be as many as 40 of the cars affected by it) in he old days they would have pretended it never happened.
Scott
Looks like quite a small universe of actual missing parts as you noted:
The recalled vehicles were assembled in the Orion Township, Michigan plant. GM suspected that the brake pads, which are a part of a subassembly of components, fell off before the cars were assembled and had remained unnoticed at the bottom of containers being shipped to the Orion Township factory. The company expects that the pads are missing in 20 to 30 of the recalled vehicles.
Don't know how you would miss the parts in the containers however. Receiver's job to inspect empties, as you know.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Avg asking price for an 09 Accord within 100 miles of my zip is $18,459.
09 Impala is $14893.
But, this is a three-year old car for $15K, not a two-year old Impala for $10K.
Unscientifically here, also, is that I bet the actual purchase price of the Impala new would probably have been significantly less than the sticker, and I'm not sure that'd be the case with the Accord.
Overall, I'd say definitely. The rebates have to be higher on an Impala. Though my dad was able to get his '09 Accord EX-L v6 new for under invoice back then.
He was shopping the Accord vs a Fusion SEL, and a Camry Hybrid. He felt the Honda offered the best best deal overall.
With the Accord getting old, I'm sure they are getting more aggressive now too. Lots of competition in that segment.
http://www.autotrader.com/dealers/dda/index.jsp?dealership_view_name=bertera&add- - ress=03431&car_id=306907430&dealer_id=88841&mis_search_type=used
Here's a certified 2010 Impala LS, being sold at a Chevrolet dealer. Asking price - $11,995.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=310314563&dealer_id=1393171&ca- - r_year=2010&systime=&doors=&model=CHEVIMP&search_lang=en&start_year=2009&keyword- - sfyc=&keywordsrep=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=used&distance=300&min_pr- - ice=&rdm=1325690657582&drive=&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_dis- - play=&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2010&showZipError=y&make2=&certified=- - &engine=&dma=BOSTON_WK&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=0&isF- - lashPlugin=true&transmission=&default_sort=priceASC&max_mileage=45000&color=&add- - ress=03431&sort_type=priceASC&max_price=&make=CHEV&seller_type=b&num_records=25&- - cardist=240&standard=false
Why would you buy an Impala new? They depreciate like computers.
I sure see a lot out and around in our 28K town. I think they're a favorite of older folks.
I'm surprised GM bothered to put the 3.6 and six-speed in them for 2012.
It's certainly possible they fell out before the caliper was assembled, but then they would be lying around on the floor, where they would (or certainly should) have been easily noticed.
As for the other posting, where the poster questioned the dealer not catching this in the pre-delivery inspection, my first thought would be... Why?
The car that started it all was a rental unit, which probably bypassed the normal dealer process, and secondly, I sincerely doubt if any brand's dealer checks to see if brake pads are installed (although GM dealers may start doing it now).
On a new car, if the dealer has to inspect items like brake pads, he might as well just build the car from parts and act as the final assembly plant. Let's face it, there isn't that much markup in new cars to warrant that kind of attention by a dealer.
I don't know. Call them and find out. I do know that a lot of Impalas are sold to fleets and rentals, and that hurts their overall resale. But 2010 Impalas as I showed in my 2nd link can be bought with full factory certified warranty with <30K miles for < $12K. I didn't do anything special in this search, it's a random smaple in time (not a 1 time flood car) ...
So if Impalas are being sold for $12K or less with negotiation, what do you think the dealers are buying them for at auction, or at trade-in? Probably < $10K, especially if they're not selling them certified. Consider that it was just last Oct. 2010, 15 months ago that the 2010 Impalas were leaving the lots. What was an Impala stickering for then? $25K at least? What could you get it for? deeply discounted to $19K? What's it worth today at trade-in to a dealer? <$10K? That is quite a loss.
With a car like an Impala where the majority are sold to fleets, you end up with a bunch of LS and LT models available within a few years.
I just did a search for 09 Impala LTZs and the avg price is $17600. Those are a bit harder to find though as Autotrader only shows 13 within 100 miles of me. That's still a few thousand less than what an Accord Ex-L v6 would go for, but your not going to find a clean LTZ Impala for $10k unless it has a bunch of miles.
I did look at some of the interior pics of the used LTZ's and I will say they are not impressive. The interior looks drab and cheap. I remember looking at them in 06 and thinking the interior was a big upgrade over the previous Impalas, but it hasn't aged well IMO.
But for a $16,900 asking price on a 2009 Impala LTZ with 37k miles on it, that's hard to beat. I bet you can save another $1k to $1,500 on that price too. Sure you give up some things, but that still a lot of car for that kind of money.
Heck, I looked up used 2009 Honda Civic EX and the average was $16,400.
So, the Impala would certainly qualify as a used value.
I'm surprised GM bothered to put the 3.6 and six-speed in them for 2012.
The only reason I can think of is GM wanted to phase out 3.5/3.9 and 4speed trans production. I'd guess the Lucerne going away is part of that decision too.
I'm not that interested.