Excellent post, Greg, and logical. My own personal opinion is that there are, at most, three anti-GM posters who post in an 'infantile' style (one only some of the time), and one pro-GM poster who leans that direction. But, your results may vary!
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We all have the feeling that the more something cost, the better quality it should be.
We tend to forget the differences ...
Bill Gates' house costs much more than my house, and I have no question he pays exponentially more in maintenance costs.
As far as cars go, I'll compare my BMW 328i convertible to my daughter's Nissan Versa SL.
Comparing my car to hers, I don't have to worry about the rear hatch wiper blade or motor.
Conversely, she doesn't have to worry about the following malfunctions on her Versa:
Auto dim headlamps IDrive interface Auto wipers Heated seats Multi level data interface Nav system Leather seating surfaces ...
And, I certainly don't expect to get by spending less on maintenance, even with a 4 year 50k mile all included service plan, unless I keep the car for less than the covered period.
IMO, comparing a Cobalt to a MB high-line model makes as much sense as comparing a house trailer to Biltmore House.
No question that GM has generated (justified or not) sufficient ill will with some that they would rather walk than ride in a GM product. That can also be said for any make on this forum that has any sizable sales volume.
That some folks ( including the media) might possibly be "gunning" for GM, hoping to expose failure, makes it all that more important to avoid any visions of impropriety or incompetence.
That's my point, and I think that's the point a couple of others are trying to make.
I say again, no one ever cornered the market (legally, at least) by only producing a product that was as good as his competition. GM and Chrysler are a little bit like the guy just released from prison. He has to be extra careful to do "right". Just doing "OK" isn't good enough.
Detroit started putting out crappier cars in the mid 70's and it declined further into the 80's and 90's. Then they bitched about Japan advantages and forced them to build plants here rather than focusing on US product and union contract agreements. That all basically opened the door for Japanese cars to thrive here. Many people had bad experiences with domestics which still harbor ill will today. But is GM really the primary culprit? Seems to me that Ford and Chrysler put out a lot of crap too. In fact, since GM continually out sold the other two (and often at higher sales transaction prices), this indicates to me that perhaps GM vehicles were actually often better than their two other Detroit competitors back then. Yes, the gov gave GM a bailout, but it was primarily a concern about job impacts and both political parties were involved in it. Chrysler has had two rounds. The dollars provided Detoit were but a small fraction of what the big Wall Street firms were given during the same economic crisis. I guess my point is that maybe some are beating up on GM a little too much and not willing to give them some objectivity and a few years to turn it around. The current leadership is relatively new at all of D3. Personally, I'm willing to give them until around 2016 before I make my final decision. Meanwhile I'm looking at some of their newer products, but I'll admit I'm also treading a bit carefully right now and recent issues like the Cruze steering wheels and Sonic brake pads frankly give me some pause. I also think Chrysler, despite the current Italian hype is far behind GM and Ford isn't really all that far ahead either looking at some of their recent vehicles like the latest Taurus and Explorer. Further, imports like Toyota, and even some of the Germans, seem to be trending downward. The game isn't over yet - we've still got a few innings before we'll really know! Not everything GM does is bad and not everything a Japanese, Korean or German firm is always good. To always state otherwise is just bias.
I'm with you as far as products go - I see a lot of market average vehicles being produced by GM. Using the scholastic-grade system, a lot of "C's"; so I'm not crucifying them.
I agree with tlong that GM missed the opportunity to redefine themselves, or recreate themselves.
The biggest thing I would like to see from GM is HONOR. 1) Where is there honor in accepting the deal that they don't have to pay income tax on their first $45 billion in Profit? That is being a leach. :mad:
2) I would also like GM to voluntarily pay the U.S. taxpayers back on any stock loses the government has when they sell the stock. If GM has $ to give out bonuses, then it has the $ to pay the taxpayers back! :mad:
So correct these injustices and slap-in-the-faces, and I'd be more than willing to look at GM products again. In the 90's and early 2000's I had bought 4 new GM vehicles. They are corporate bums right now IMO.
Personally, I'd like to see longer comprehensive warranties like Hyundai to give me better confidence in buying the vehicle. Focus on the ultimate car buyer, not the dealer and their profit packs.
1) Where is there honor in accepting the deal that they don't have to pay income tax on their first $45 billion in Profit? That is being a leach
I honestly don't know enough about this to answer. My first question would be is this really a profit skip, or is it write-offs that all companies would be entitled to under tax law like deferred loss recovery, depreciation, etc?
2) I would also like GM to voluntarily pay the U.S. taxpayers back on any stock loses the government has when they sell the stock. If GM has $ to give out bonuses, then it has the $ to pay the taxpayers back!
GM has to pay enough to compete in the labor market if its going to turn itself around successfully. The payback concept seems reasonable as long as the gov sells the stock smartly - not politically. Perhaps a method would be bigger discounts on gov purchases over time until it is paid off since a large, single payout would likely hurt company operations. However, this should then be required of all bailout receivers in all industries, not just GM. Personally, I think the gov opted the stock route rather than a loan beause it didn't have to shell out as much cash up front and likely had troubles going the guaranteed loan route because of all the large bank company problems at the time.
No comments at all...not a single one...about my niece's Quest requiring a new engine...only comments about others who have had control arm bushings replaced on Cobalts? That's the type of thing I'm talking about.
Things have improved at GM. The real problem is, nothing they could ever do would be sufficient in the eyes of the three or four on this forum (you know who you are), who have your minds made up already...sadly.
Sorry, I still see this post as a cop out.
The first paragraph -- well who really cares about some other brand? Is GM near the top? Is it even in the top half? If not, then the first paragraph is really irrelevant to the discussion.
Second, I'll say that I would consider GM if they had the track record, and if it appeared they were striving to be excellent. If they even were doing what Hyundai has been doing (yes, I know a lot of you hate the styling, yada yada). The key is the amount of effort. And by ignoring THAT, people are just giving GM too much of a pass. Why is GM still in the lower half of overall reliability across too many models? Why are there still major QC problems? It is the entirety of their current performance, not whether a certain truck or car is really good. You are not just buying one vehicle, you are buying the company and its reputation when you plunk down $20-odd grand on a product.
No comments at all...not a single one...about my niece's Quest requiring a new engine
Wikipedia says my '99 engine was built in Smyrna, TN. Your niece's engine was either built in Iwaki and Decherd, TN. It was on the Ward's 10 Best Engines list from 2002 through to 2007.
Even though I lived in TN and know where Smyrna is, I couldn't tell you where Iwaki or Decherd TN are. :shades:
Iuka MS I know.
Bummer about the engine, but stuff breaks. Not so much anymore thankfully. Mine's been okay at 178k btw.
In all fairness though you probably need to focus on GM's newer products like Lambda CUV, Malibu, Cruze, etc and allow for a few initial hiccups on brand new models. GM, like the rest of Detroit has a lot of carry over crap that is going to take a few years to be able to engineer and finance replacements. I certainly agree that Ackerson and GM need to show the public more leadership. They need to publicly step up to the plate on the recent Cruze and Sonic embarrassments and it might be a good time to introduce longer comprehensive warranties while doing that. They also need to keep tweaking product. For example, I rented a Cadillac CTS. It actually was a decent car for a vehicle in the 30's and low 40's price point, but it had short seat bottoms - bet it still does! Caddy did come out with the Caddy coupe and now the new lux model, so they aren't totally stagnant either. They seem to be slowly turning Buick around, but I'm afraid they may be over extending the product line there. They've got to remember that Buick is not Chevy +, it was Caddy minus when it was a successful car line. They buyer isn't looking for a full Chevy line somewhat improved, its looking for a car similar to a Caddy but cheaper. You want that Buick margin closer to Caddy than Chevy to generate more cash flow to use in bringing out continually better vehicles.
Seriously, yours is a different generation than my niece's. I do think it's clear that Nissan had several major quality issues in the mid'00's, but as is so often the case, seemed to walk between the raindrops concerning them.
Someone earlier mentioned extending GM's warranty. I'd like to see that, too, although since 2007, they've consistently had the longest powertrain warranty of anyone but Hyundai. And I like that, up til '11, it included wheel bearings/hubs. Wish it still did. Apparently no one else's did.
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Well, since recalls have been a hot topic here lately, thought I should share (since not sure anyone else would), that so many people's darling, Toyota, has led in recalls for three straight years.
As in the Camaro, the Cruze launch this year was plagued with continuing issues for GM.
The 2011 and 2012 Chevrolet Cruze models rank among our top compact sedan picks. Yet in its first full year, they’ve already been covered by three unfortunate recalls, affecting 231,319 cars in all. Among those, the most memorable were two campaigns that came relatively early in the Cruze’s production: a potential issue with steering wheels that might not be properly fastened; then an issue with the automatic-transmission shift linkage.
Toyota and GM have a lot to fix, wouldn't you say?
Yep. Apparently, Toyota has more to fix according to the numbers...this year, last year, and the year before that.
Didn't atexiera (I think) claim four or five recalls for the Cruze, after it was actually posted by someone that I must have made up the Sonata's recalls (example of infantile)?
What is the source for your info, BTW?
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I honestly don't know enough about this to answer. My first question would be is this really a profit skip, or is it write-offs that all companies would be entitled to under tax law like deferred loss recovery, depreciation, etc?
My point was GM should not accept this. But of course they have billions of reasons to accept it.
GM has to pay enough to compete in the labor market if its going to turn itself around successfully.
Which in this labor market, where these factories are located - is about $10/hr. But because GM has to have the UAW, as this wasn't addressed in the BK, auto workers are paid more than the unemployed who could and would replace them for lower wages. Same goes for the white-collar employees. In fact you can argue that high wages for the union and white-collar employees of GM did nothing to compete GM competitive during the last few decades. Just like my mutual fund managers could be replaced by a few monkeys with darts! Don't believe the BS you hear from these self-promoters.
Consider this too when you hear that bailing out this company or this bank "was a net benefit to the economy by keeping jobs, blah, blah ..." If this is true then why doesn't the government simply bailout each and every company or individual in the country? Why not bailout Kodak next? Never let any entity fail, because it is all a net gain! Baloney! The results are in folks - the economy is only getting slightly better because of all the excess governement spending. The debt is increasing faster than the GDP. The negative side of the scale is getting added to faster than the positive side with these bailouts, and stimulus. Keynesian is a failed theory. We have survived to this point despite that theory. To continue on that path is suicide. Europe will get there first though, and then we can blame them.
BTW - All the auto companies (and everyone here) should prepare for the economic collapse that is coming in the next few years. I'd get my $ now and get it out of the large financial institutions, and get out of equities. Something tangible like depressed real estate may be the best bet right now.
My Cadillacs last a long, long time! I still have my 23 year-old 1989 Cadillac Brougham and it still looks and runs excellent. I foresee "Black Beauty," my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance, being with me for a long, long time as well!
We've got plenty of educated folks who can't do anything. The recent "Occupy" events are graphic evidence of that. What people need are SKILLS, not an education. SKILLS get the job done. I don't care if one can recite all of Shakespeare's sonnets. How does that get my toilet repaired? I'm more impressed with the guy who can fabricate a custom motorcycle tank from flat pieces of sheet metal than some McMBA.
Seems that any car company that has being "King of the hill" as its goal also ends up with scads of recalls...probably due to getting to number 1 trumping all other aspects of the business.
Now that VW has thrown its name into the number 1 wanna-be, I expect their quality to take a dive as well.
Whatever happened to being the best at what you do, even if that means the other guy gets the top slot?
Whatever happened to being the best at what you do, even if that means the other guy gets the top slot?
GM/UAW used greed to stay at number one despite the slide over 3 decades until Toyota took over #1. They also got GM disease but their quality was so much higher than GM to begin with. Some failed QC on a high-rate assembly line will do it every time and not catching the issues in the field led to their fall from the best.
Honda used to claim that #2 spot as best engineered car but has slipped lately afaic. Subaru seems to be the best at what it does at the moment. The Germans have fantastic cars but suspect quality lingers.
HunKia is skyrocketing with far better quality but I'll wager they raise their prices too high and loose their way as well.
That's true (although a poor excuse for poor quality). However, that's why it's important for a manufacturer to offer good will repair and warranty services when things go wrong. An attempt to keep a customer happy rather than make the choice to lose one forever.
Unfortunately for GM, I've heard more negative stories about "badwill" that outnumber and outweigh your stories of "goodwill."
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I miss names like "Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance!"
I liked the one or two years they called it "Fleetwood Sixty Special Brougham"!
Here's a high-falutin' Chevy model name: "Chevelle Malibu Colonnade Hardtop Coupe". It's so long, on the '73 window stickers it would say at the top--"Chevelle Colonnade Hardtop Coupe" and below it would say "Malibu V8" or "Deluxe L6" or "Laguna V8".
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Toyota launched 13 campaigns in 2011, affecting more than 3.5 million vehicles – more than any other auto maker. It marked the third consecutive year Toyota claims the dubious honor.
But most of Toyota’s recalled vehicles, some 2.1 million, were linked to first-half campaigns. The auto maker’s second-half performance saw just two campaigns, one of which called for a correction to a label citing vehicle-load capacity.
A string of defect problems in 2009 and 2010 had implications for nearly 11.5 million Toyota vehicles. Ill-fitting floor mats and sticky accelerators largely were to blame.
Government Motors issued the greatest number of recalls in 2011 with 21 campaigns, but (look for it, a positive! :surprise: ) they had implications for a relatively modest 455,901 cars and trucks.
wow, they actually had the word "Colonnade" as part of the model name on the window sticker? That seems a bit pretentious, but I guess it's no different than if they substituted the word "pillared", as Chrysler did. For instance, here's a window sticker for a 1980 Plymouth Gran Fury police car.
Wasn't the top Olds Delta model for 1985 the Delta 88 Royale Brougham LS or something like that?
Thank you for pointing that out, and it does deserve to be mentioned for the oft-missing balance on this thread. But, the headline in the article I posted was about Toyota, not GM, and there's not much positive there for Toyota, despite all its followers.
The fact that the headlines are about Toyota, show that most people consider the big problem, number of cars affected. People remember the 1971 Chevy motor mount recall because it affected a huge number of cars, but people don't generally remember a lot of recalls that affect not that many cars.
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No, that's OK. Unlike so many others, I am interested in GM products and how they relate to their competition, but I feel no need whatsoever to gloat on another board where most posters will no doubt be 'buffs' of that brand. That'd be one for Dr. Phil.
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wow, they actually had the word "Colonnade" as part of the model name on the window sticker?
Yep! The '73 brochure shows descriptions like "Laguna Colonnade Hardtop Sedan" under photos, too. I believe that title carried over into '74, but am unsure about later than that. I'm thinking the "Colonnade" name showed up in brochures and window stickers until '77. For some reason, the Monte Carlo avoided being tagged with that name.
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In spite of General Motors standing poised to retake the top sales spot, Chevrolet perhaps breaking its all-time sales record, and an anticipated Buick and two new Cadillac models coming, GM's stock price got beat like a goat in 2011. On January 2, 2011 the stock traded at $37.06, on January 2, 2012, it hovered a few dimes above $20, making GM the worst-performing auto-industry stock of 2011: with a 46.1-percent drop, it edged out Cooper Tire (-41.7), TRW Automotive (-40) and Ford (-37.3).
No gloating. Just facts.
Now, here are the leading sales for 2011 for the D3.
Thank you for posting; the sales results are interesting. I really don't care at all about stock price, days in inventory, etc. But then, I'd have bought a '64 Studebaker or two new, and we all know what their numbers looked like.
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That explains why they went after Suzuki and Isuzu and Lexus for rollovers but not Ford (twice). Explorer (for the tire fiasco) and Escape (rollover in crash testing) were completely off the hook.
You're right ... they are biased. They really give Ford the advantage.
Amazing job that GM and Chevrolet do in selling that many Impalas. In many car magazines, and Consumer Reports, it gets low marks compared to the competition. Guess there are still a lot of both uninformed buyers and buyers who insist on only buying an American brand no matter its performance, quality relative to other brands.
It's one of the only cars you can get with a bench seat and column shift, and for 2012 it has the six-speed automatic and 3.6 V6. Upmarket trim levels (wheels, etc.) of a few years ago have been pushed down to the lower-priced models now. I think it still looks nice (not great) in the right color and wheel combination. Our Malibu has more rear-seat legroom though.
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I've got a $45k 07 Expedition that will need the tailgate repainted after this winter because the paint is bubbling and flaking off. Ford won't do a damn thing about it.
I've seen peeling paint on my NA Miata and on a buddy's Dakota pickup, his a lot worse than mine.
Auto makers won't cover these unless you have perforation in the sheet metal, so we're all outta luck.
I do think that when they first went to more "green" paint processes we did see a lot of bad paint, on a variety of brands.
Rank Make Average of Discount off MSRP* 1 Saab 14.33% 2 Chevrolet 13.87% 3 Dodge 13.87% 4 Ford 13.77% 5 Nissan 13.54% 6 Lincoln 13.50% 7 Chrysler 13.26% 8 Buick 12.61% 9 Infiniti 12.53% 10 GMC 12.15% Industry 14.33%
That last number must be a typo. That's the peak, not the average.
Good points, but man, it's 7 model years old now - GM has some gall, do they think they are MB in 1984? :shades:
I rented a normally equipped one last year, brand new - it had no problems, but I just couldn't imagine laying out 25K for it. 160K of them can't all be retail.
Comments
That's all I'm saying.
Regards,
OW
We all have the feeling that the more something cost, the better quality it should be.
We tend to forget the differences ...
Bill Gates' house costs much more than my house, and I have no question he pays exponentially more in maintenance costs.
As far as cars go, I'll compare my BMW 328i convertible to my daughter's Nissan Versa SL.
Comparing my car to hers, I don't have to worry about the rear hatch wiper blade or motor.
Conversely, she doesn't have to worry about the following malfunctions on her Versa:
Auto dim headlamps
IDrive interface
Auto wipers
Heated seats
Multi level data interface
Nav system
Leather seating surfaces
...
And, I certainly don't expect to get by spending less on maintenance, even with a 4 year 50k mile all included service plan, unless I keep the car for less than the covered period.
IMO, comparing a Cobalt to a MB high-line model makes as much sense as comparing a house trailer to Biltmore House.
A Mazdaspeed 3 is nothing like a BMW M3...
Let's try to keep the comparisons in perspective.
No question that GM has generated (justified or not) sufficient ill will with some that they would rather walk than ride in a GM product. That can also be said for any make on this forum that has any sizable sales volume.
That some folks ( including the media) might possibly be "gunning" for GM, hoping to expose failure, makes it all that more important to avoid any visions of impropriety or incompetence.
That's my point, and I think that's the point a couple of others are trying to make.
I say again, no one ever cornered the market (legally, at least) by only producing a product that was as good as his competition. GM and Chrysler are a little bit like the guy just released from prison. He has to be extra careful to do "right". Just doing "OK" isn't good enough.
Whatever.
Regards,
OW
I agree with tlong that GM missed the opportunity to redefine themselves, or recreate themselves.
The biggest thing I would like to see from GM is HONOR.
1) Where is there honor in accepting the deal that they don't have to pay income tax on their first $45 billion in Profit? That is being a leach. :mad:
2) I would also like GM to voluntarily pay the U.S. taxpayers back on any stock loses the government has when they sell the stock. If GM has $ to give out bonuses, then it has the $ to pay the taxpayers back! :mad:
So correct these injustices and slap-in-the-faces, and I'd be more than willing to look at GM products again. In the 90's and early 2000's I had bought 4 new GM vehicles. They are corporate bums right now IMO.
1) Where is there honor in accepting the deal that they don't have to pay income tax on their first $45 billion in Profit? That is being a leach
I honestly don't know enough about this to answer. My first question would be is this really a profit skip, or is it write-offs that all companies would be entitled to under tax law like deferred loss recovery, depreciation, etc?
2) I would also like GM to voluntarily pay the U.S. taxpayers back on any stock loses the government has when they sell the stock. If GM has $ to give out bonuses, then it has the $ to pay the taxpayers back!
GM has to pay enough to compete in the labor market if its going to turn itself around successfully. The payback concept seems reasonable as long as the gov sells the stock smartly - not politically. Perhaps a method would be bigger discounts on gov purchases over time until it is paid off since a large, single payout would likely hurt company operations. However, this should then be required of all bailout receivers in all industries, not just GM. Personally, I think the gov opted the stock route rather than a loan beause it didn't have to shell out as much cash up front and likely had troubles going the guaranteed loan route because of all the large bank company problems at the time.
Things have improved at GM. The real problem is, nothing they could ever do would be sufficient in the eyes of the three or four on this forum (you know who you are), who have your minds made up already...sadly.
Sorry, I still see this post as a cop out.
The first paragraph -- well who really cares about some other brand? Is GM near the top? Is it even in the top half? If not, then the first paragraph is really irrelevant to the discussion.
Second, I'll say that I would consider GM if they had the track record, and if it appeared they were striving to be excellent. If they even were doing what Hyundai has been doing (yes, I know a lot of you hate the styling, yada yada). The key is the amount of effort. And by ignoring THAT, people are just giving GM too much of a pass. Why is GM still in the lower half of overall reliability across too many models? Why are there still major QC problems? It is the entirety of their current performance, not whether a certain truck or car is really good. You are not just buying one vehicle, you are buying the company and its reputation when you plunk down $20-odd grand on a product.
Wikipedia says my '99 engine was built in Smyrna, TN. Your niece's engine was either built in Iwaki and Decherd, TN. It was on the Ward's 10 Best Engines list from 2002 through to 2007.
Even though I lived in TN and know where Smyrna is, I couldn't tell you where Iwaki or Decherd TN are. :shades:
Iuka MS I know.
Bummer about the engine, but stuff breaks. Not so much anymore thankfully. Mine's been okay at 178k btw.
Same at GM
Seriously, yours is a different generation than my niece's. I do think it's clear that Nissan had several major quality issues in the mid'00's, but as is so often the case, seemed to walk between the raindrops concerning them.
Someone earlier mentioned extending GM's warranty. I'd like to see that, too, although since 2007, they've consistently had the longest powertrain warranty of anyone but Hyundai. And I like that, up til '11, it included wheel bearings/hubs. Wish it still did. Apparently no one else's did.
http://autos.aol.com/article/why-toyota-topped-recall-list/?ncid=webmail7
The 2011 and 2012 Chevrolet Cruze models rank among our top compact sedan picks. Yet in its first full year, they’ve already been covered by three unfortunate recalls, affecting 231,319 cars in all. Among those, the most memorable were two campaigns that came relatively early in the Cruze’s production: a potential issue with steering wheels that might not be properly fastened; then an issue with the automatic-transmission shift linkage.
Toyota and GM have a lot to fix, wouldn't you say?
Regards,
OW
Didn't atexiera (I think) claim four or five recalls for the Cruze, after it was actually posted by someone that I must have made up the Sonata's recalls (example of infantile)?
What is the source for your info, BTW?
I had heard of both of those recalls, BTW.
No, it is an exceptional gift, even beyond the standard forgiveness of the typical BK. This explains it - http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/23/news/companies/gm_bailout/index.htm
My point was GM should not accept this. But of course they have billions of reasons to accept it.
GM has to pay enough to compete in the labor market if its going to turn itself around successfully.
Which in this labor market, where these factories are located - is about $10/hr. But because GM has to have the UAW, as this wasn't addressed in the BK, auto workers are paid more than the unemployed who could and would replace them for lower wages. Same goes for the white-collar employees. In fact you can argue that high wages for the union and white-collar employees of GM did nothing to compete GM competitive during the last few decades. Just like my mutual fund managers could be replaced by a few monkeys with darts! Don't believe the BS you hear from these self-promoters.
Consider this too when you hear that bailing out this company or this bank "was a net benefit to the economy by keeping jobs, blah, blah ..." If this is true then why doesn't the government simply bailout each and every company or individual in the country? Why not bailout Kodak next? Never let any entity fail, because it is all a net gain! Baloney! The results are in folks - the economy is only getting slightly better because of all the excess governement spending. The debt is increasing faster than the GDP. The negative side of the scale is getting added to faster than the positive side with these bailouts, and stimulus. Keynesian is a failed theory. We have survived to this point despite that theory. To continue on that path is suicide. Europe will get there first though, and then we can blame them.
BTW - All the auto companies (and everyone here) should prepare for the economic collapse that is coming in the next few years. I'd get my $ now and get it out of the large financial institutions, and get out of equities. Something tangible like depressed real estate may be the best bet right now.
My Cadillacs last a long, long time! I still have my 23 year-old 1989 Cadillac Brougham and it still looks and runs excellent. I foresee "Black Beauty," my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance, being with me for a long, long time as well!
Now that VW has thrown its name into the number 1 wanna-be, I expect their quality to take a dive as well.
Whatever happened to being the best at what you do, even if that means the other guy gets the top slot?
My only comment is that Toyota and Honda stand apart from every other manufacturer, including other Japanese makes.
You might call them rose-colored glasses, but I reserve those glasses for those 2 companies because they have earned it.
GM/UAW used greed to stay at number one despite the slide over 3 decades until Toyota took over #1. They also got GM disease but their quality was so much higher than GM to begin with. Some failed QC on a high-rate assembly line will do it every time and not catching the issues in the field led to their fall from the best.
Honda used to claim that #2 spot as best engineered car but has slipped lately afaic. Subaru seems to be the best at what it does at the moment. The Germans have fantastic cars but suspect quality lingers.
HunKia is skyrocketing with far better quality but I'll wager they raise their prices too high and loose their way as well.
Regards,
OW
Oh, absolutely. Which is why GM, Ford, and Chrysler share a few traits together.
1) All 3 lost tons of market share over the last few decades. :sick:
As to others being worse than GM, that's true too.
2) Scoreboard reads:
Bailouts
GM: 1, Chrysler: 2 (Ford, technically, 0)
Hint: The lower your score the better.
3) I've had rentals from all 3 of the Big 3 that caused disgust with their vehicles.
Same at GM
That's true (although a poor excuse for poor quality). However, that's why it's important for a manufacturer to offer good will repair and warranty services when things go wrong. An attempt to keep a customer happy rather than make the choice to lose one forever.
Unfortunately for GM, I've heard more negative stories about "badwill" that outnumber and outweigh your stories of "goodwill."
Fair enough, but don't say I didn't warn you! :P
Or I told you so!
Believe me, over in SUVs there are plenty of people upset with Nissan and their customer service.
I liked the one or two years they called it "Fleetwood Sixty Special Brougham"!
Here's a high-falutin' Chevy model name: "Chevelle Malibu Colonnade Hardtop Coupe". It's so long, on the '73 window stickers it would say at the top--"Chevelle Colonnade Hardtop Coupe" and below it would say "Malibu V8" or "Deluxe L6" or "Laguna V8".
I feel pretty sure you could substitute almost any manufacturer's name for "Nissan" and still be correct.
link title
Toyota launched 13 campaigns in 2011, affecting more than 3.5 million vehicles – more than any other auto maker. It marked the third consecutive year Toyota claims the dubious honor.
But most of Toyota’s recalled vehicles, some 2.1 million, were linked to first-half campaigns. The auto maker’s second-half performance saw just two campaigns, one of which called for a correction to a label citing vehicle-load capacity.
A string of defect problems in 2009 and 2010 had implications for nearly 11.5 million Toyota vehicles. Ill-fitting floor mats and sticky accelerators largely were to blame.
Government Motors issued the greatest number of recalls in 2011 with 21 campaigns, but (look for it, a positive! :surprise: ) they had implications for a relatively modest 455,901 cars and trucks.
Balance...
Wasn't the top Olds Delta model for 1985 the Delta 88 Royale Brougham LS or something like that?
Regal's Mild Hybrid is Stylish and Agile
The fact that the headlines are about Toyota, show that most people consider the big problem, number of cars affected. People remember the 1971 Chevy motor mount recall because it affected a huge number of cars, but people don't generally remember a lot of recalls that affect not that many cars.
But this is a GM thread so I'll look for you to post this in a Toyota thread...
Yep! The '73 brochure shows descriptions like "Laguna Colonnade Hardtop Sedan" under photos, too. I believe that title carried over into '74, but am unsure about later than that. I'm thinking the "Colonnade" name showed up in brochures and window stickers until '77. For some reason, the Monte Carlo avoided being tagged with that name.
No gloating. Just facts.
Now, here are the leading sales for 2011 for the D3.
GM leads again! BALANCE!
1. Ford F-Series: 516,639
2. Chevrolet Silverado: 367,343
3. Ford Escape: 228,719
4. Ford Fusion: 226,445
5. Ram pickups: 218,750
6. Chevrolet Cruze: 215,057
7. Chevrolet Malibu: 191,774
8. Chevrolet Equinox: 175,079
9. Ford Focus: 161,436
10. Chevrolet Impala 160,955
Regards,
OW
That explains why they went after Suzuki and Isuzu and Lexus for rollovers but not Ford (twice). Explorer (for the tire fiasco) and Escape (rollover in crash testing) were completely off the hook.
You're right ... they are biased. They really give Ford the advantage.
Amazing job that GM and Chevrolet do in selling that many Impalas. In many car magazines, and Consumer Reports, it gets low marks compared to the competition. Guess there are still a lot of both uninformed buyers and buyers who insist on only buying an American brand no matter its performance, quality relative to other brands.
While it was a small number of vehicles, what you have to ask is, what quality control tests do they (not) perform to have missed that?
It's not that they forgot brake pads. It's that those cars made it all the way to the consumer.
In fact I have to scratch my head - didn't the guys transporting the cars to dealers notice? Strange.
Any how, back to busiris' point - someone was cutting corners and not performing the checks and inspections they were supposed to.
I've seen peeling paint on my NA Miata and on a buddy's Dakota pickup, his a lot worse than mine.
Auto makers won't cover these unless you have perforation in the sheet metal, so we're all outta luck.
I do think that when they first went to more "green" paint processes we did see a lot of bad paint, on a variety of brands.
1 Saab 14.33%
2 Chevrolet 13.87%
3 Dodge 13.87%
4 Ford 13.77%
5 Nissan 13.54%
6 Lincoln 13.50%
7 Chrysler 13.26%
8 Buick 12.61%
9 Infiniti 12.53%
10 GMC 12.15%
Industry 14.33%
That last number must be a typo. That's the peak, not the average.
I rented a normally equipped one last year, brand new - it had no problems, but I just couldn't imagine laying out 25K for it. 160K of them can't all be retail.