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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Oh and I have a Silverado with the 4.3L V-6. It's a great feeling knowing that all the bugs were taken out of that engine over 20 years ago. Im not that confident in the newer engine designs...DI and turbos. I've owned 3 turbo cars and 2 of them needed head gaskets within 50,000 miles. There are quite a few reliability complaints about the newer Turbos (eg: Mazda CX-7)

    I'm a bit leery of some of that high-tech stuff, too. It's all fun when it's new, but I worry about how it's going to hold up, long-term. The only turbo I ever had was a 1988 LeBaron coupe that my uncle bought used in 1990, and sold it to me when I got married in 1995. I let her have it in the divorce, but kept in touch, so I knew how the car was holding up. Heck, she'd find some way to get ahold of me and gripe whenever something broke on it! I think the final straw was around 118,000 miles, when the head gasket blew. She and her mother found some shop that put on a new gasket, and a used head (old one had warped), but the car was still running poorly. I talked her into letting me take it to my mechanic to check it over. He sorta got it running for 70 bucks. It turns out there there were a lot of vacuum lines, wires, etc that were put back wrong, or simply left disconnected! They did a compression check on the engine and said two of the 4 cylinders were low. And the turbo was shot. Don't put another dime into the car, he said! A couple months later, it started blowing sweet white smoke out the exhaust, and you could tell the death rattle wasn't too far off. I bought it back from the ex for 90 bucks, so she could get two tickets and go see Faith No More at a local club, and turned around and sold it for parts.

    With newer pickups, the Fords kinda scare me with those high-powered, high-tech V-6 engines. But on the GM front, I've heard mixed stories. The 4-speed automatic they use with the 4.3 V-6 and 4.8 V-8 can still be iffy. Dunno much about the 5.3/6-speed auto...it does seem to get pretty good fuel economy, at least. But, I figure if I got a new truck, I'd just go for a Ram with the Hemi. Pushrod, 2 valves per cylinder, and the same displacement (345 cubic inches) as a 1957 DeSoto Adventurer! :P

    How many miles does that Aura have on it? I've always liked those. In fact, I like the Aura better than the Malibu!
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited August 2012
    Just for comparison, the Bentley service manual says the 1598 CC engine in my wife's 2005 Mini Cooper weighs 285 lbs. it's a cast-iron block with aluminum head.

    I can't locate the weight of the "Prince" all aluminum crankcase/head engine that replaced the 1st generation Mini engines in, I think 2007, but it's a safe bet that it weighs even less.

    Manufacturers today are quite sensitive to weight savings, ergo the widespread use of aluminum body panels on cars like basic sedans...
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    eah, when we bought my wife's Camry I had spotted a nice Aura selling dirt cheap on a local lot. Unfortunately I wasn't fast enough. A lot of car for the money.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Fezo!! Good to see you again!

    On the Aura front, back when my Intrepid got totaled, I had looked at a few Auras online. Never had a chance to actually check 'em out though, because I stumbled across the 2000 Park Ave Ultra I ended up buying.

    I thought about just getting a 4-cyl with the 6-speed automatic. I'm sure it's fast enough, while still getting good fuel economy. I was leery of the 3.6 V-6. The 3.5 seems like a good middle-of-the-road choice though. Better performance than the 4-, but still good fuel economy. And low-tech enough that if it does break, it shouldn't be *too* expensive to fix.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You mentioned me but you are responding to a post from ateixeira.

    SHEESH! :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited August 2012
    It's your graph, ....oh, nevermind.

    What exactly was your reasoning for omitting the chart immediately below the graph you reprinted here, that showed that GM trucks outsold Ford in 2008 and 2009, which is what people here were wondering?

    You must have gone to the MSNBC School of Editing!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    I was leery of the 3.6 V-6

    While my wife's Aura only has 40,000 miles, there are a few of the 3.6 XR's on the Saturn forums with well over 100,000 miles with few problems. I know some of the earlier CTS engines had timing chain problems, but I think that was fixed by 2008. Her engine is smooth and doesn't burn a drop of oil. There was a poster on that forum whose tranny went around 100k miles, and I think he said the dealer wanted $3k for a new one. One thing I noticed about tranny replacement... the cost seems always to be about 1/4 the cost of the car. As the value of the car goes down, so does the cost of a new transmission to the point where a 10 year old domestic car transmission replacement is only $1000-$1500, whereas a 4 or 5 year old import out of warranty will be in the $4000-$5000 range.

    It seems all of the dealers/ transmission shops take into account what the car is worth with or without the transmission, and at what financial point the owner would not be willing to get the repair.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Uh, I also grew up in the 1980s. My first new car was a black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic and my second new car was a 1989 Cadillac Brougham which I still have. I wouldn't have remotely considered buying any Japanese cars of the 1980s and I sure as heck don't consider buying any now.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Like they say, there's nothing older than yesterdays "high tech!"
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Interesting theory; always noticed that getting older Caravan transmissions replaced was relatively "cheap". No so with Odysseys.

    Wonder if your theory holds true for other big ticket repairs, like head gaskets or AC compressors.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Wonder if your theory holds true for other big ticket repairs, like head gaskets or AC compressors.

    Well, I can vouch for a/c compressors. Back in 2009, the one in my Intrepid seized up from lack of Freon, shredded itself, and contaminated the whole system. Cost about $1300-1400 to repair, and as I recall, just the compressor was about $500-600.

    Oh, supposedly the Intrepid used the same compressor as Honda. So, I'd guess repair prices would be comparable?

    Out of curiosity, a few years ago I asked the guy at the transmission shop how much it would cost to rebuild the 3-speed THM350 in my '85 Silverado. When giving me the answer, he did phrase it something like "Considering the age of the truck...around $650"
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited August 2012
    It's your graph, ....oh, nevermind.

    What exactly was your reasoning for omitting the chart immediately below the graph you reprinted here, that showed that GM trucks outsold Ford in 2008 and 2009, which is what people here were wondering?

    You must have gone to the MSNBC School of Editing!


    I tender my apology here for all to see, circle. Seeing the statement lead with "GM leads NOTHING", and seeing a chart that I know was addended with additional info that showed that GM trucks were outselling Fords, being left out, I automatically assumed it was from you. It is your style, you know.

    I was wrong.

    The original poster actually used that chart (and not even the subsequent 'number of units' data) to show that GM had done better in trucks than being given credit for here.

    I'm sorry about that.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited August 2012
    >One thing I noticed about tranny replacement... the cost seems always to be about 1/4 the cost of the car.

    The folks in the Odyssey forum don't find that to be the case with their multiple transmission replacements for outrageous prices. Shows the effect of covering up problems in vehicles for the sake of retaining their reputation for "reliability" through the decades. Anyone who doesn't know Honda has had transmission deficiencies is just asking for trouble. It's actually amusing to read the outraged posters about their having figured out they'd been had in the Honda tranny category.

    And then there's the outrageous prices for fixing their AC compressors in CRVs. They replace with same compressor and repeat the failures. Must have been designed in the same place as Honda transmissions. Marketing uses the same technique: replace with same defective product, charge outrageous price, give customer slight assistance with price until out of warranty!

    Contrast the transmission problems, compressor problems and the handling by "perfect" reliability ratings versus how GM has been treated.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Again, I didn't post that graph.

    Regards,
    OW
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    Contrast the transmission problems, compressor problems and the handling by "perfect" reliability ratings versus how GM has been treated.

    I agree. Those CR-V A/C sytems are around $4000. Some have been replaced 3 times, and sometimes Honda will comp the parts, lowering the price by 1/3 to 1/2. Still a lot of money to lay out on such a "reliable" vehicle.

    The Toyota rust issue is not going away. There are now numerous early
    to mid 2000 year Seqouia and 4Runner owners with rusted frames with no program by Toyota to provide replacements, like they do on Tundras and Tacomas. Some are being advised by their mechanics not to drive them as they are unsafe. One owner was presented with an estimate of $16,000
    for a new frame for his Sequoia. Being as it is worth less than that it looks like another "Quality" Toyota vehicle goes to the scrap heap.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited August 2012
    My BIL just had the trans fail on his 01 Tundra with 140k miles. $2800 to rebuild. He also has an 07 Odyssey with 70k and no problems yet.

    Considering that is his first non maintenance failure, his cost to go 140k is still a lot cheaper than I've had with my domestics. My Suburban cost me at least $6k in repairs to go 100k miles and my Expedition has cost me at least $3k in repairs and I'm at 106k. I now have an exhaust leak at a manifold that will need repaired and I need to get the tailgate repainted due to it bubbling and flaking off.

    It seems to me many domestic owners don't participate on online forums. The f150 forum is dead considering how many issues Ford has had with the 5.4 v8, spark plugs, vct, exhaust leaks etc. Considering millions have been sold over the last decade, very few post are found.

    I can deal with problems if I like the vehicle. I'm much happier with my Expedition overall than the Suburban I had, but it's been far from perfect.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited August 2012
    The 4-speed automatic they use with the 4.3 V-6 and 4.8 V-8 can still be iffy.

    That's one of the biggest reasons I didn't go with another Suburban. At the time, they didn't offer the 6 speed yet. No way was going to get another 4l60e. Those transmissions are junk for towing. Poor gearing and durability. I know several people that have had multiple rebuilds on that POC.

    With newer pickups, the Fords kinda scare me with those high-powered, high-tech V-6 engines.

    Yeah, the jury is still out on the Ecoboost. I've test drove one and it's very impressive. It's probably the strongest gas truck engine I've sampled between 2k-4k rpm. But with Ford's reputation I can see repairs being a nightmare.

    That said, I know 3 guys that have Ecoboost powered f150s and so far they rave about it, but none have over 10k miles yet (these are not Ford guys either, all traded in a GM or Dodge truck). Gas mileage is about 2-3mpg better than I get with my Expedition while having tons more power.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I like that 64 convertible, although I'm probably more partial to the 61-63 Impala's. I also like those Mopars in front of the 64 Impala in the second picture. Thanks for posting the pix!
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Maybe things are changing these days, but having owned both GM and Ford, I think this board gives Ford too many free passes. I agree with your experiences that Ford's can be problematic (particularly after the factory warranty is over).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited August 2012
    Heritage, GM could use more of it in promotion (while not mixing it with pseudo-patriotism).

    That reminds me of something else I think the domestics need - GM especially - consistent naming conventions. I know it can be hard when the typical overpaid treacherous should-be-hanged American executive strategy is to let a name decay until it becomes worthless, and then replace it. However, the winners in this industry generally don't do it like that. Corolla, Civic, Accord - these names have been in continuous production longer than I have been alive, and Camry dates back to when I was a tot. Even Sonata has more than 20 years behind it now. Consistency can be good.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Those CR-V A/C sytems are around $4000...
    There are now numerous early
    to mid 2000 year Seqouia and 4Runner owners with rusted frames with no program by Toyota to provide replacements, like they do on Tundras and Tacomas. Some are being advised by their mechanics not to drive them as they are unsafe. One owner was presented with an estimate of $16,000 ...


    Great stories. Do you have links, or is this anecdotal? ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That reminds me of something else I think the domestics need - GM especially - consistent naming conventions.

    That goes with the reputation of the vehicle. Corvette has been consistent. The dogs get renamed every so many years.

    No dogs = no renaming!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Don't worry so much. All in a good debate, you know. :D

    I think the PU truck thing is a toss-up between GM and Ford with an edge to Ford.

    Sort of like the Mustang vs. Camaro. Lifetime, the Mustang sales DESTROY the Camaro sales. But at the end of the day, you can argue either way and it's always a good debate, except the fact that GM went bankrupt which is a black mark forever!

    As we speak, Mustang will surpass Camaro for 2012 by the end of the year. Mark my words, PLEASE! ;)

    Regards,
    Wayne
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited August 2012
    Glad you asked. I looked at them too. Great DeSoto and Chrysler. Don't recall the years.

    Photos are unretouched and not cropped. Sun was bad for photos as seen on the white Chevy pictures.

    Full size:

    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC09096.jpg
    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC09097.jpg
    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC09100.jpg
    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC09106.jpg

    image

    image

    image
    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I think the PU truck thing is a toss-up between GM and Ford with an edge to Ford.

    IMO it's a toss up between ford, Ram, and GM. Ford currently has the edge due to having a better powertrain line up (power wise anyway). Hard to believe they've sold over 200k Ecoboosts already.

    GM does have the 6.2, but very few are put in 1/2 tons, the hemi, ford Ecoboost, and 5.0 offer lots more power and similar mileage to the 5.3.

    The '13 Ram will be interesting, looks like the penstar/8 speed combo will offer nearly 25mpg hwy. Pretty impressive. That may be a good truck for those who don't regularly tow heavy trailers.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    Great stories. Do you have links, or is this anecdotal?

    Here is the text of one complaint made to NHTSA:

    Dec 14, 2011 - Holden, MA - Body
    2002 TOYOTA SEQUOIA SR5 - 66,462M. MECHANIC DISCOVERED THAT THE FRAME OF THIS VEHICLE IS COMPLETELY RUSTED. HOLES IN THE FRAME AND LOTS OF RUST IN KEY JOINS COMPROMISING THE SAFETY OF VEHICLE. TOYOTA CORP. HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THE FRAMES OF THE TACOMAS AND TUNDRAS HAD A PREMATURELY RUSTING PROBLEM. THE TOYOTA SEQUOIA HAVE THE SAME FRAME. TOYOTA ISSUED A RECALL ON THESE TWO VEHICLES BUT NOT THE SEQUOIAS. UPON CONTACTING TOYOTA CORP. THEY ASKED THE VEHICLE BE TAKEN TO A TOYOTA DEALERSHIP FOR FRAME INSPECTION. THE INSPECTION REPORT SAY: CUSTOMER REQ. INSPECTION - -> LOOKS LIKE HAMMER HOLE IN BOTTOM OF LT RAIL @ TRANS MOUNT CROSS MEMBER LOTS OF ROT/ MISSING METAL FROM FT RT SWAY BAR MOUNT LOTS OF ROT AT RR CROSS MEMBER (THAT SPARE HANGS FROM) WHERE MEETS RAIL ON LT SIDE. MY MECHANIC SAID THAT IN ALL HIS LIFE WORKING WITH VEHICLES HAS NEVER SEEN A VEHICLE SO DETERIORATED FROM RUST. ADVISED TO CONTACT TOYOTA BECAUSE OF THE TUNDRA'S RECALL. TOYOTA CORP. WILL NOT ADDRESS MY VEHICLE NOR THOSE OF OTHER SEQUOIA OWNERS THAT I FOUND ON INTERNET FORUMS WITH THE EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEMS. THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW INSTANCES WHERE TOYOTA HAS REPLACED THE FRAME IN VEHICLES WITH HIGHER MILEAGE AND OLDER VEHICLE. TOYOTA CORP. CLAIMS BECAUSE THE VEHICLE IS OUT OF THE 36K MILE WARRANTY THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PREMATURE ROTTING OF THE FRAME. VEHICLE HAS BEEN DRIVEN AN AVERAGE OF 7K MILES A YEAR, MAINTAINED PROPERLY AND IN MINT CONDITION. THE SEQUOIAS SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE FRAME RECALL FROM TOYOTA SINCE IT IS THE SAME FRAME AND MANUFACTURER OF THE TACOMA AND TUNDRA MODELS WHICH TOYOTA HAS ACCEPTED THESE VEHICLES WERE MANUFACTURED WITH SUBSTANDARD FRAMES WHICH LEADS TO PREMATURE ROTTING. I ASK YOUR AGENCY TO FURTHER INVESTIGATE THIS FRAME ISSUE WHICH MAY BE A SERIOUS SAFETY VIOLATION SPECIALLY FOR THOSE UNAWARE THAT THEIR VEHICLES ARE ABOUT TO COLLAPSE BECAUSE OF FRAME ROT.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I think the DeSoto is a 57. Where's Andre when you need him?

    Love the 64 Impala. I, too, kinda dug the 63.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's only worthwhile if the name is not tarnished somehow. That's why Chevy NEVER keeps the name of their C-segment cars, they want people to forget the last one for the most part. Chrysler does the same thing with many models, but not the Jeep Wrangler, and not the Dodge Grand Caravan, because both successful nameplates have massive amounts of positive equity. Ford kept Escort around a relatively long time, but dropped the ball and let it get tarnished, so now we have the Focus name, which they're also sticking with (so far anyway). Fusion is about to hit it's third generation.

    Chevy DID try to keep the Malibu name around, but it's looking like this third generation will be the last one, given the reception its getting. Remains to be seen if the Cruze nameplate has enough positive equity to survive. They abandoned Aveo for a reason too, as well as the Blazer nameplate. But notice the Corvette has always been the Corvette, and the Suburban still exists. It doesn't just happen to GM: Toyota abandoned the Echo name, Subaru is discontinuing the Tribeca name. But Corolla has lived forever, and WRX (a trim name) gained so much equity it's being promoted from trim level to model name.

    The winners don't generally do that just to become winners. A good nameplate that has positive equity will stick around is all. It's an effect of being successful, not a cause. It also helps to save money: dumping a name means creating a new one, which can be expensive. If they're still dumping it, that means there's so much negative equity in the name that it's cheaper to shell out the cash on a new one than risk associating a new model vehicle with a name with a strong negative sense to it. Like Cavalier, Citation, Cobalt, Corsica, Tempo, or Echo.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    You know, at the end of the day, it all boils down to every manufacturer having its own weak spots. For some, it's engines, others have transmissions, and others have coach issues.

    So, you have to "pick your poison", and hope you are immune to the one you select.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I can't believe you didn't mention the Ford Taurus.

    What an excellent example on brand name equity...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Great looking car.

    When I was around 13-14, my brother (17-18 then) had a good friend that owned a similar model, but his was dark burgundy in color, with a black top? The guy kept it spotless.

    After a high school football game one night, he and several guys were staying at a lake house owned by one of their parents. Around 2 AM, 5 of the guys decided to take his convertible for a little "joyride", without his knowledge. And, alcohol was involved (evidently, lots of it).

    Ended up with the car wrapped around a power pole, and while everyone survived, each of them had permanent disability issues from the accident.

    Every time I see that model convertible, I think about those guys. Fortunately for my brother, he wasn't much of a football fan, and he missed out on all the "fun" that night...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Thanks greg- it's nice to have actual data rather than stories as from some. Toyota clearly has some issues there.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Nice shots. I like seeing 4 doors like that DeSoto and wagons too for that matter. Not that I don't appreciate the coupe and convertibles.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Very true. So much equity they changed the name of the Five Hundred to it. The Taurus wasn't a particularly special or reliable car either, but it still managed to gain a lot of positive equity among Ford buyers.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited August 2012
    Yes, I understand the equity and why worthless names are killed off. What I have to wonder is, though, somewhere along the line - does a suit decide to intentionally kill a name via letting an old model wither on the vine, so they can experience new model hype with the promise that "this time it will be different"? It almost seems to be a part of strategy for these guys. Every brand eventually kills off a name or model here and there, but a certain few makers seem to do it a lot more than the rest, combined.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Taurus was the best selling car for a year, I think thats something, yeah sold more that Toyota or Honda.

    Then they decided everything needs to be a circle if possible, and the public didnt buy it. Next model year changes were made.

    Ford did a good thing, redesign the 500, keep the Taurus name.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    From: Motor Trend magazine, Oct. 2012:

    In a twist of irony, GM has a suitable vehicle for police applications, based on the RWD Chevy Caprice (based on the long WB G8 Zeta platform), yet many police departments in the US cannot purchase them.

    The reason?

    Many states and localities require motor vehicles to be built in the North American Free Trade zone, and the manufacture of the GM unit remains in Australia. It was planned to share the Oshawa production facility with the Camaro, but due to higher than expected Camaro sales, production remains off-shore in Australia.

    GM is planning to move production of the car to North America, but the earliest that will happen is 2015, when the Camaro moves to the new Alpha (ATS) platform.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    We had that when VW was building Rabbits in Pennsylvania. Few funnier looking things than a Rabbit police car.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Yup, '57 DeSoto Fireflite Sportsman 4-door hardtop. Actually a pretty rare car.... only 6,726 built. Most of the squeaks, rattles, and leaks of a convertible, but with the stigma of a fixed roof and two extra doors, plus an engine that was popular for yanking out and throwing in a hotrod did not ensure a very good survival rate.

    When it comes to early 60's Chevies, I think my fave is the '61, followed by '62 and '60. I think '63 is the one year I'd actually prefer a Ford to a Chevy: not that I hate the Chevy, but I just thing that year's Ford looked really good. '64 ain't bad, either.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    The '13 Ram will be interesting, looks like the penstar/8 speed combo will offer nearly 25mpg hwy. Pretty impressive. That may be a good truck for those who don't regularly tow heavy trailers.

    That sounds like it would be a good truck for me...as long as it has a halfway decent bed capacity.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My Grandpop had a black 1964 Biscayne sedan that he gave to my Grandmom when he got a new 1967 Bel Air.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Ugh! To me, Taurus means a mediocre Ford and a cheap brand of handgun. I thought the 500 was a decent enough car if a bit dull. I could've seen it as more of a Crown Vic replacement than the baroquely styled cramped Taurus.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Remember the old joke about Volvos being designed with a T-square and triangle and two coins traced for the wheels? The third generation Taurus must've been design with nothing but an elipse template. That generation trashed the nameplate. I still can't forget it as I often rode in one the belonged to a co-worker.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    It IS a Crown Vic replacement. But the Crown Vic nameplate has too much negative connotation associated with it, whereas the Taurus name is seen as positive to consumers, particularly consumers not named Lemko. :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Hey, as long as they make a civilian version of this car!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My favorite by far is the 1961 model, especially the two-door hardtop!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited August 2012
    The Crown Vic has a negative association with it? Maybe to criminals who found themselves riding in the back of one too often or to leadfoots who saw them too often in the rearview mirror with red and blue lights flashing. I thought the Crown Vic was a spectacular car that Ford just let get too outdated. Old school or not, I'd take a Crown Vic or a Grand Marquis over a Taurus in a New York second!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Very negative connotation, seen as fleet fodder, the turf of cab drivers, and of 90 year old men wanting a car that handles just like what they remember from the 70s.

    You keep forgetting Lem, that you are NOT an example of the general buying public. You are very much an exception. Frankly most of us who frequent these board are, but most of us realize that.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Any car that is tough enough to be used as a police car or taxi is one I'm going to seek out. My Grand Marquis holds up very well against the potholed streets and tough urban environment of Philly. This is one reason I'm hoping they make a civilian version of the police Caprice.
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