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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Re-live the 70s in your new GM!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    That'd be perfectly OK to me.

    I'd have to get completely used to having more than beige, black or grey to choose from, inside or out. Oh, and a couple extra-cost colors outside to choose from.

    Paying for a paint color. Not a big fan.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I think Oldsmobile's grand total for 1977 was something like 1,135,000 units, of which around 635,000 were the Cutlass lineup. Roughly 250,000 were Delta 88's, 140,000 Ninety-Eights, 34000 Toronados, 19000 Starfires, and about 54000 Omegas were also sold.

    GM had predicted that the downsized big cars would take a bite out of midsized sales, and for the most part (Chevy, Pontiac, and Buick) they did. But, the '77 Cutlass managed to sell even better than the '76 had! So well, in fact, that it caused a shortage of Olds 350s, which led to the engine swapping debacle that would hit the courts a few years later.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, wasn't the supposed mid-size 1977 Malibu bigger than the Caprice?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    And then they go and plan TWO cars for the full-size category anyway, the Impala and the SS. How much does it cost to create, build, and market three models in a segment that could be filled (theoretically) by one car?

    The SS is going to be targeted at a much different demographic - performance oriented buyers. As for cost, it's probably not much. It rides on the Zeta platform which underpins a number of GM models. It's smaller than the Impala and of course RWD with a V8.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Heck, wasn't the supposed mid-size 1977 Malibu bigger than the Caprice?

    They were both on a 116" wheelbase, although the Malibu coupes were on a shorter 112".

    As for overall length, I think the Malibu was something like 208" for the coupe, 212" for the sedan, and 215" for the wagon. The Caprice/Impala was 212" coupe or sedan, and I think the wagons were 215".

    The midsized cars were a touch heavier, though. A 1977 Malibu V-8 sedan started at 3737 lb, while an Impala was 3659. Opt for the inline-6 instead, and it saved you about 100 lb.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Similarly, the Malibu and Monte Carlo in '78 were smaller than the '78 Nova! (at least in wheelbase...and nearly three inches shorter, actually).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    The Malibu is essentially Chevy's version of the Buick Regal, while the Impala is going to be Chevy's version of the LaCrosse. So, in the long run, aligning the cars like that is probably more cost effective for GM than trying to keep the Malibu on its own special platform, and the Impala on its own.

    As for the upcoming SS, isn't it basically a resurrected Pontiac G8?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The SS is going to be targeted at a much different demographic - performance oriented buyers.

    So instead it's going to steal sales from the Camaro?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    So instead it's going to steal sales from the Camaro?

    Your're kidding, right?

    Does a 5-series BMW steal sales from a Z3?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Does a 5-series BMW steal sales from a Z3?

    What does that have to do with two cars sitting on the same platform, both targeting the performance market? And therefore stealing sales from each other, which WILL happen.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Where do you think all that debt interest charge builds up from???

    It builds up from dumb expenditures like the GM bailout. We bailed out GM in 2008, now 4 years later were still not paid back.

    That's interest accumulated over 4 years; not 1. Instead of earning money on our money, we are losing it because we are borrowing the money we used to bailout GM!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Seems incredibly basic to me...I think four-door sedan buyers and coupe/convertible buyers are not the same dynamic.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Seems incredibly basic to me...I think four-door sedan buyers and coupe/convertible buyers are not the same dynamic.

    And neither set of buyers is the same dynamic as "performance car" buyers. Which both the Camaro and SS target.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Frankly, what a company says doesn't insult me nearly as much as what they sell.

    When I get a car that is so crappy you'd think it was "made in China" then that is insulting to me. When they leave you holding the bag for all the repairs and act like "breakdowns are normal." That is also insulting to me!

    It was also insulting to my bank account to own a domestic vehicle, as it kept getting drained both by repair costs and by non-existant resale value.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I don't think Dodge shouldn't build the Charger sedan because they also build a Challenger. Do you?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Time to let go of that '90's baggage and try a GM, Ford, or even Chrysler again!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Ahh but they don't build a Charger, Challenger, AND a mystery third model, do they? They have the two, and the Challenger is the two door variant of the Charger and everyone knows it. That's not QUITE as bad as what GM is planning.

    Chevy will have the Impala, Camaro, and SS. The SS is the "performance" variant while the Camaro is the "sporty" variant and the Impala is the "normal" variant.

    Incidentally, you're holding up Chrysler as a point of emulation for GM. Which is the other car manufacturer that needed a bailout again?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Think of it as a four-door Camaro. I'd like the performance of a Camaro, but am not so keen on the impractical 2-door coupe bodystyle.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Think of it as a four-door Camaro.

    You realize that's a deathly insult to Camaro enthusiasts right? :shades:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "Does a 5-series BMW steal sales from a Z3?"

    Probably not, since BMW stopped making Z3's a decade ago. I think you probably were referring to the Z4...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Actually, GMC stands for Grabowski Motor Company

    Well no wonder GM sells so well in the Chicagoland area - just kidding!
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Even as a kid, I always wondered how Wilbur was unable to capitalize off of having a talking horse.

    As materialistic as Mr. Ed was, surely Wilbur could have convinced him to do a little public speaking for some cash...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think John Rock really was on the mark when he took on Oldsmobile. Unfortunately, GM brought him in too late in the ball game.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Isn't the main reason for bringing the SS over here from Australia to give GM a niche in the fleet market for police cars?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Isn't the main reason for bringing the SS over here from Australia to give GM a niche in the fleet market for police cars?

    No. The Caprice PPV is only offered to police forces. It sits on a longer wheelbase version of the Zeta platform whereas the SS will be on the longer version. Zeta underpins the Holden Commodore, Statesman and Ute as well as the Camaro. The Holdens are sold worldwide under the Chevy, Daewoo, Vauxhall and Buick names.

    The SS will be a low volume product. It will be the basis for Chevy's NASCAR entrant.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    nor do you see Boeing trying to capitalize off of the 707 in any significant way.

    The B707 was a trans-formative aircraft. You do know that the 737 is still built essentially off of that platform and airframe? I think the B727 is one of the most remarkable aircraft made. Unbelievably great handling and performance. Well, back to the automotive industry...
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's the Caprice PPV, and it's already here. I'm not sure what logic (if any) is involved in bringing the SS as well, unless they've got extra Caprices to dispose of.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Thanks for clearing that up.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Time to let go of that '90's baggage and try a GM, Ford, or even Chrysler again!

    Is it baggage, or is it garbage!?!

    It is definitely a bad memory. Funny thing is, that if Dodge had been at least halfway competent and decent, I actually like some of their designs, and a new DART would be right up my alley (I like the looks).

    Problem is the last time I liked the looks of a Dodge it got me into big trouble. I won't be making that mistake again; not in this lifetime.

    I'd try Ford (I like that they don't require bailouts). I've heard some negative things about them though, both from bad reviews of their interface systems, their auto-manual transmissions, and from a family member that had an engine blow in a pickup truck between 36K and 40K miles and didn't get any assistance or goodwill fixing it. If I had to pick one, it might be a Mustang GT (though doubtful I'd like the solid rear axle), but probably the Focus ST (At 22K that would be a good deal).

    As far as GM goes, I don't know, a recent convention has me leaning more towards the bailouts being a good thing. ;) :P

    I suppose somebody has to be the bigger man and step up and offer some forgiveness (even if undeserved). I could see a Cadillac ATS in my future if it was priced right and performed well. Unfortunately, I often find domestic vehicles to be WAY overpriced (look at CTS). The horrible resale values in a way reflect that overpricing. I don't want to take a huge depreciation hit; perhaps a 2 to 4 year old model would be the trick as a "first dip" into the domestic waters again.

    In order for someone to win my business, they have a tall order to fill. I want something in my future that is as fun to drive as my A3, gets better mileage without sacrificing power, and is a cost value bargain bank for the buck deal. I find my A3 to be the best thing I've ever purchased value wise in my lifetime, as there are 100 things I love about the car. Of course, the A3 hasn't changed in 6 years and the 2012 models cost significantly more than I paid in 2006 (plus no free maintenance for 50K miles either).
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    SS USED TO apply to super-spot models of REAL Chevys.

    Now only one model. GM lost it and can never get it back, afaic.

    Chevelle SS
    Impala SS
    Camaro SS

    Super Sport, or SS, is the signature performance option package offered by Chevrolet, a United States Auto Maker, on a limited number of its vehicles. All SS models come with distinctive "SS" markings on their exterior. The package was first made available for the 1961 Impala.[1] Some of the other models bearing the SS badge include the Camaro, Chevelle, El Camino, Monte Carlo, and Nova. Current SS models are produced by the GM Performance Division.

    Not Just SS. Is anyone at home at GM??? Hello???? WAKE UP!!!

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I guess the Z4 is one better than a Z3.

    I don't post on the BMW board, so forgive me that error...particularly since they haven't been making Z-model BMW's for 54 years, like Impalas.

    Bpizzuti is also forgetting the 300 which is sold in the same buildings as the Challenger and Charger. What is the Chrysler model that's a little smaller than a Charger? That's the one I'd align with the Malibu. Plus, he forgets that the Impala is front-drive versus rear-drive for the SS and Camaro (Challenger and 300 and Charger as well). Chrysler's smaller sedan, the Avenger I think it is, is front-drive.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    The Caprice police car (the old Pontiac G8) has been in the 'States for every bit of a year, at least. Our town of 28K has a fleet of them. I have read over that year or so, posts of regular folks clamoring for the car. That is why I think Chevy is bringing it back over here as a civilian model...the SS.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I can imagine how much fun a Cruze SS or Sonic SS would be. The Cobalt SS was the one trim that people actually LIKED as opposed to "tolerated." A Malibu SS would be a nice thing that we can no longer look forward to.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The 300 is a Chrysler, not a Dodge. If you want to go there, then we get to bring in the Caprice PPV, plus the equivalent Buick and Caddy (since Chrysler is the luxury arm and GM has two luxury arms). So now we have GM using six cars to cover the same segment that Chrysler uses three.

    Just give it up. You're not going to win this argument. GM's trying what it's always tried: get the highest sales numbers by sheer mass of having the largest number of different models on the market. The problem with this, as always, is GM's failure to develop an identity for its brands in the process.

    That's really a sad thing because I'd like for GM to start specializing and developing identities. Generally that's what carmakers do: they try to become excellent at one thing. Caddy is the only one that seems to have a quasi-identity but it's spoiled by the Escalades (which really SHOULD be Buicks or GMCs...assuming one wants GMC to be the "premium" truck division instead of just the "other" truck division). Buick needs to admit they are cushy luxury versus Caddy's sporty luxury, and just get really good at it. Chevy needs to find a niche and conquer THAT, and stop trying to conquer the entire market simply by flinging models all over the place.

    Ford does tech
    Mazda does sporty-tuned front-drivers
    BMW does euro-cruisers
    Chrysler does RWD cruisers
    Mercedes does RWD luxury cruisers
    Toyota does hybrids
    Subaru does AWD.
    Nissan does CVTs

    What does Chevy do? Honest question? GM, particularly GM's marketing, needs to be able to answer this, and then their operations needs to deliver. Or vice versa. And I'm going to keep saying this until people understand it, because unless GM understands it, they will not be successful. This is not altruism: this is greed. I want my money back, and I only get it if they succeed. :shades:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    The 300 is a Chrysler, not a Dodge. If you want to go there, then we get to bring in the Caprice PPV, plus the equivalent Buick and Caddy (since Chrysler is the luxury arm and GM has two luxury arms).

    Difference: the 300 and Charger are sold in the same dealership. The Buick and Chevy might be, but it's rare.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    edited September 2012
    Even as a kid, I always wondered how Wilbur was unable to capitalize off of having a talking horse.

    Didn't Ed only speak for Wilbur?

    Man, that show must have been set in the area right outside of South Bend...every single car or truck was a Studebaker! ;)

    There was recently a '63 Studebaker Lark Daytona Wagonaire that was purchased by a fellow, can't remember where, but when he sent for the build sheet from the Studebaker National Museum, it said on the bottom, "Tag Mr. Ed Filmways Inc.". Not a value-adder, but interesting I think.

    The grumpy, older neighbors on "Mr. Ed", the Addisons, drove an Avanti.

    My dealer friend had to pay co-op advertising for that show back then, and says, "I never liked that show". I liked it as a kid, but now only for the Studebakers I see on it!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited September 2012
    Oh, I was just razzing you a bit on the Z-thing.... Justa little good natured jabbing...

    In your opinion, impala is special, one reason being the name has survived for over 50 years.

    Fair enough, but there's another side to the market... And marketing.

    For example, as was debated a few pages back, the Chevy short-block engine is pretty much the same basic block design now as it was in the late 50's. IMO, while its admirable from a mechanical and engineering standpoint to have a design that has clearly passed the test of time, it would be marketing suicide to start advertising Chevrolet V-8s have the same basic mechanicals as the car your grandfather drove.

    Berri, I believe, stated the Boeing 737, one of the most successful airliners ever, is largely based on the 707, but i don't remember seeing Boeing ever popularizing that info. Folks today, for the most part look forward to something new.

    I guess what I'm attempting to say is that there comes a time when trying to tie a product to historical references can actually work against the product.

    I can well imagine a number of potential buyers being turned off by the name "Impala", just because they remember riding in one their grandfather owned.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Ed spoke on the phone, but in person, only to Wilbur...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I remember Ed used to read the newspaper, using his enormous eyeglasses!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I get your point, but wasn't it only in the past few weeks when so many on here were complaining how GM doesn't retain a model name like Honda and Toyota does?! With Corvette, Suburban, and Impala, are most likely the three longest-used model names, ever--and add "Malibu" in there as well.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited September 2012
    I'm waiting for the Impala and SS.

    Wouldn't you be doing some great disservice to the U.S. and be contibuting to a future "apocolypse" by purchasing a Canadian vehicle?

    At least the Taurus is built in Chicago. :shades:
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Yes, rebadging is still alive and well within GM.

    Nothing has changed.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I think it all depends on the circumstances...

    Corvette should always stay Corvette because so many of their buyers see the lineage passed down from one Corvette generation to the next. And, while I've seen my share (and you have, too) of Corvette owners that do well to be able to figure out which side of the car the steering wheel is mounted on, even THEY like the car due to its "coolness" factor.

    There are tons on BMW owners around here, where they build the X-series BMW's that are the same. Some folks refer to them as "poseurs", and perhaps that's the right term to use in many cases. In the end, Corvette has tons of positive image associated with the name, even from those that absolutely detests GM...

    Suburban is another name that has positive image, like the Dodge Ram (btw, Chrysler announced its now just going to be Ram, and dropping Dodge from the truck line), Silverado and Ford F-series trucks. Buyers of these vehicles value them for their "utilitarian" image, and anything that's last a long time certainly gives the image of "utility, reliability, durability, longevity, etc".

    I'm not sure what Impala brings to the table. I put it in a class with a name like Belvedere and New Yorker. Maybe even Imperial, as the history they bring with them isn't of any significant value today.

    And, you know, Toyota has ditched several names with value at one time... Cressida, Celica are a couple...

    With Impala, i suspect marketing research would find most buyers associating it with a car for older folks, placing it in the Buick realm of image.

    But, I could be wrong. It would be really interesting to see a marketing research project on the Impala name, and see how it's viewed.

    I always though Malibu was associated with younger drivers, and I suspect many today in my age group (57) would view it as a younger person's car, because it was when we were in our teens and 20's. Probably why it's well-received today.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I prefer U.S.-built to Canadian, but as has been mentioned here numerous times, GM was delivering Canadian-built product to the states at least 40 years ago. It's not something new, or comparatively new, like Mexican production. I won't rehash it, but Canadian trumps Mexican to me, and I think most thinking people, any day of the week.

    We always hear how "American" Toyota is, but the sad fact is, when the terrible tsunami hit, Japanese manufacturing was completely hamstrung for months. Why is that? We're not just talking no black paint for Ford trucks...we're talking that production came to a crawl.

    That did not happen for GM, Ford, and Chrysler.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    edited September 2012
    I'm not sure what Impala brings to the table. I put it in a class with a name like Belvedere and New Yorker.

    That's your opinion which is of course OK, but I think there's a lot more emotion and positivity to the name "Impala" compared to "New Yorker", which hasn't been used in a decade, and "Belvedere" which hasn't been used in over forty years.

    Just yesterday, en route home from a funeral, a late '80's K-car "New Yorker" drove by us. It was ratty but driving at 60 or 65 mph. I said I thought it was sacrilege that the name "New Yorker" was applied to a K-car. My friend said, "Well, what about the Cimmaron?" I said, "A travesty too, but at least they didn't call it a 'Fleetwood Brougham'. " Similarly, 'Impala' was never applied to anything but a large car...not to a stretched Citation with much of the same sheetmetal, for instance.

    Another friend in the car said, "That's a 'New Jersey', not a 'New Yorker'!"
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    edited September 2012
    Today, for the first time in ages, I stopped in at Ron Marhofer Chevrolet in Stow, OH. They had ten to twelve '13 Malibus, which surprised me a bit..LS, LT, and LTZ models. I'm still disappointed with rear-seat legroom, but I was pleasantly surprised with even the LS models I saw. I saw one with a sticker of $23,150 which was the base car plus transportation, nothing else. The interior was better than LS models of the previous generation IMHO, and it had aluminum wheels quite similar to those used on 1LT versions of the Cruze...much better than the wheels or plastic wheel covers used on previous Malibu LS models.

    I saw a new dark blue color which I liked...not navy or a deep hue, but similar to 1983 GM dark blue seen on a lot of Monte Carlos, Regals, and Cutlasses that year. Only lemko and andre will probably remember that!

    A friend who has a friend who sells Chevys in Indiana said they have ordered a good number of '13 Impalas with column shift and bench seat for those who are aware that it will be gone forever with the '14 model.

    Speaking of the '14 model, I saw the Oct. "Automobile" magazine with a Robert Cumberford analysis of the '14's styling. He wasn't crazy about all the styling, but did mention the iconic stature of the name "Impala" and reiterated that in '65 one million Impalas were sold, a record for a single model name that has not been broken since.

    Incidentally, Ron Marhofer Chevrolet lost its franchise after being in business since the mid'30's, lost several employees and customers, then a couple months later got its franchise reinstated. Way to go, Washington, D.C.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Ford does tech ...even if it doesn't always work very well!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    edited September 2012
    dark blue color > new dark blue color which I liked...not navy or a deep hue, but similar to 1983 GM dark blue seen on a lot of Monte Carlos, Regals, and Cutlasses that year. Only lemko and andre will probably remember that!

    Sort of like this car I saw Saturday? See the USA in your Chevrolet...

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Yes!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
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