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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I read that it's stealing a few CTS sales, one undesired side effect.

    The next CTS can grow a bit, to more of a 5-series/E-class competitor, which should fix that.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I read that it's stealing a few CTS sales, one undesired side effect.

    That was expected. An article I read this week stated so.

    The next CTS can grow a bit, to more of a 5-series/E-class competitor, which should fix that.

    It is going to get bigger. It's always been a 7/8 scale 5 series for 3 series money.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "The ATS is a low volume product and my guess it they'll sell most of them here in the US. Makes sense to share the platform, then. "

    Of course, sharing platforms is one way to greatly reduce developmental costs on new models.

    I take no issue in sharing a platform, but what I was referring to was sharing a platform across highly price-differentiated models. Probably not that much of an issue sharing with Buick, because both aim at the "premium" segment.

    I don't think it's in GM's best interest to share a lux-level platform with a more consumer-oriented level car. It's exactly what many anti-GM antagonists would take and run with.

    Why buy the Caddilac ATS when you can get the same car in a Chevrolet, just not equipped quite as well?

    IMO, it just cheapens the brand.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Why buy the Caddilac ATS when you can get the same car in a Chevrolet, just not equipped quite as well?

    Because 98% of the buying public won't even realize it. Platforms don't sell cars. Styling, features and pricing do.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I read that it's stealing a few CTS sales, one undesired side effect.

    It's better to have your own great product steal sales from your other products, rather than somebody else's great product steal those sales!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If Chevy gets a Camaro based on that platform, I don't see any overlap there.

    Keep in mind the Audi TT, Beetle, and Jetta are all related, yet none seem similar at all.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    You may indeed be correct. I guess we'll see.

    In a related item, does anyone know the sales unit targets for the ATS?

    How will GM determine whether or not sales are meeting expectations?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Because 98% of the buying public won't even realize it.

    Unless of course they figure the buying public won't realize it and then very blatantly ship it out to the other nameplates with only minor or token restyling.

    GM would never do that though, would they?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I think they SHOULD be a go. While they are at it, they can sue Toyota for using the GS 350 nameplate.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,929
    He was extremely satisfied with how he was treated and I wouldn't be surprised if he were to buy another Honda someday.

    It's a different culture at Honda then at the Big 3. Honda failures are rare, and when they do happen, they take care of the issues and fix them.

    At the big 3, it seems not only are failures expected and accepted, but common, and furthermore, planned and engineered for since inception.

    Night and Day. Yin and Yang.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You must not be reading the CR-V AC compressor failure posts over in SUVs.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    It's a different culture at Honda then at the Big 3. Honda failures are rare, and when they do happen, they take care of the issues and fix them.

    Absolutely, positively not my experience, nor my coworker's Odyssey's experience. GM stepped up to the plate with post-warranty assistance, and my vehicle was even pre-bankruptcy! ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Unless of course they figure the buying public won't realize it and then very blatantly ship it out to the other nameplates with only minor or token restyling.

    I think the styling of the ATS would be difficult to do a token change and differentiate it enough.

    IMHO, GM knows it no longer can just slap a new nose and badge on a current car and sell more of it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    IMHO, GM knows it no longer can just slap a new nose and badge on a current car and sell more of it.

    In GM's defense, they were always better at differentiating their cars than Ford or Chrysler. I think most of the quickie-rebadge jobs, such as the Pontiac Astre, Pontiac T-1000, Nova-based Ventura/Phoenix/Omega/Apollo/Skylark, were brought about by pressure from the dealerships, rather than a broad marketing strategy by GM. And while GMC actually pre-dates Chevrolet, for ages now it existed mainly for dealerships of other divisions, such as Pontiac, Olds, or Buick, to sell trucks.

    But, when GM would actually put some effort into their cars, such as bread-and-butter mid- and full-sized cars, personal luxury coupes, etc, they usually did (and still do) a much better job of differentiating them.

    To be fair, Chrysler has gotten better about this as well. Long gone are the days that they'd simply turn a Diplomat into a Gran Fury by simply changing the black-out part of the grille to a lighter gray, and swapping a few badges. And now that Mercury is gone, Ford seems to be doing a pretty good job, as the Lincolns don't look like hastily badge-engineered Fords.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, the Lincolns just seem more like what Mercury should've been all along, but fall far short of both Cadillac and its foreign competition. I think a Chrysler 300 is far more elegant than anything in a Lincoln showroom nowadays.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Honda failures are rare, and when they do happen, they take care of the issues and fix them.

    Dunno about that.

    Crosstour bombed, it's a distant 3rd vs. Outback and Venza. They keep trying and it's still not selling.

    ZDX is another disaster. And the X6 is just as ugly so you can't blame styling.

    Insight is a failure. CR-Z is a failure. Ridgeline is a sales failure. All of those are still around. Only the CR-Z has been improved recently.

    RL is also a failure as a flagship. Those need V8s and Honda's been stubborn as a mule to give it one.

    I think you're giving Honda way too much credit.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Andres3 is talking about failures in terms of reliability/durability issues, not marketing failures.

    IMO, the BMW X6 is downright sexy compared to the ZDX!

    I wonder though, if the Crosstour, ZDX, Insight, CR-Z, and the Ridgeline are failures, why does Honda keep peddling them? I imagine they're finding some kind of way to make money off of them, otherwise they'd ditch them, right?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I think andres was referring to mechanical/reliability issues.

    But yeah, Honda has some dogs as far as sales go. Honda seems to be able to handle low volume.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited November 2012
    I wonder though, if the Crosstour, ZDX, Insight, CR-Z, and the Ridgeline are failures, why does Honda keep peddling them? I imagine they're finding some kind of way to make money off of them, otherwise they'd ditch them, right?

    My guess is they share enough components with other products and Honda's flexible manufacturing plants allow them to build several low volume products, so maybe they can handle the low volume.

    I was just checking Honda's website and other than a lease deal and .9% financing they don't advertise many incentives. GM would have a bunch of money on the hood in order to sell off all the excess inventory. Honda seems to be keeping inventory in check.

    According to Wards. Honda's NA production utilization is 94% so they aren't hurting to bad. GM is 81%
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >CR-V AC compressor failure

    And the VCM problems and now failures. Just proves no car is perfect. ANd Honda is not doing as they did in the 90s and 2000s.

    Or can you spell "transmissions"?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    share enough components with other products and Honda's flexible manufacturing plants allow them to build several low volume products

    I was going to say just about the same thing. Ridgeline is basically a Pilot underneath. Plus they experiment with drivetrain improvements on the Ridge then apply to other models in the lineup (Ody and Pilot got transmission improvements for example).

    Insight and CR-Z also help them meet CAFE standards.

    Ironically, people might list Element as the 7th failure, but it was actually a sales success. It added incremental sales to its CR-V platform-mate. In fact the CR-V took over the best selling SUV throne only after the Element was introduced. So it never cannibalized its more expensive sibling.

    Yet they discontinue the Element. Go figure.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Wow, I liked the CTS wagon, though I've only seen a handful in person. From what I've read it's not particularly space efficient. But I thought it looked cool.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Is it just me, or is the new CTS a tad smaller than the last one?

    I sat in a CTS-V wagon and the back seat was surprisingly tight.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I just used this example, now here's a source with more:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-23/vw-shortens-investment-plan-horizon-on-- europe-uncertainty.html

    After introducing a new version of its bestselling Golf hatchback in September, VW is planning a further 40 models based on the same framework at brands such as Seat and Skoda in order to cut costs

    VW is gunning for #1, so this is how volume makers do it.

    Toyota probably has a bunch of models based on the Camry as well.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Is it just me, or is the new CTS a tad smaller than the last one?

    I sat in a CTS-V wagon and the back seat was surprisingly tight.


    Dunno, they've always been cramped in back to me. But I'm probably not the best point of reference to use. I just went to the EPA's website, and they list the 2013 CTS as having 99 cubic feet of passenger volume, and a 15 cubic foot trunk. That's about what my old '89 Gran Fury was (99/16...but with an oddly shaped trunk and a full-sized copcar spare that made the true volume much smaller than the compact would have been). So in theory, it shouldn't feel like that small of a car.

    And, with a 113.4" wheelbase, it's NOT that small of a car! My old Gran Fury was only 112.7, and even my Park Ave is only 113.8.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was surprised, but even in the wagon the back seat felt tight.

    That's fine, now that the ATS is around, the CTS can slide up to the next size class.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    With the next CTS growing up a bit, it makes sense that the wagon would disappear from our shores. There's isn't a 5 series touring or A6 avant offered here.

    Since the current CTS is made in Russia for Euro consumption, maybe they'll still make it there.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I was surprised, but even in the wagon the back seat felt tight.

    I've noticed that in most cases, wagons are a bit tighter in the back seat than sedans. I think sometimes the back seat would be a bit more upright in a wagon than in a sedan, which might have been to make it able to fold flat? Even back in the 60's and 70's, many wagons were like that...even the big mastodons.

    However, I just looked up the specs on Edmunds, and they list both the sedan and wagon the same, at 36.1" of legroom.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Disappear? Only if we get an ATS wagon.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Subaru's entire lineup is based on one platform plus the BRZ/FR-S. So it doesn't surprise me.

    Mazda's basically going the same way, modular FWD/AWD SkyActiv platform, plus the Miata. They'll have to come up with something for an RX-7 eventually though...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2012/09/05/gm-revamps-the-cadillac- -lineup-to-target-luxury-market-share/

    "Cadillac, the luxury car brand owned by General Motors, plans to double its sales to around 300,000 in the next three years with the help of new introductions and model revamps. In total, Cadillac will introduce 10 new models or vehicle redesigns. The new models include the ATS 2013 as well as the XTS 2013 models, a next generation Escalade, a new CTS sedan and the ELR plug-in electric coupe."

    "Cadillac was the market leader in the luxury market in the U.S. back in 1997, but its German counterparts have since taken over. Mercedes has been the top selling luxury brand in the U.S. this year with sales in the first seven months standing at 159,412 units followed by BMW at 147,801 units. Cadillac’s sales are less than half that the market leader’s with 76,229 units."

    Am I the only one that thinks this objective seems a bit optimistic?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    300k must be a global target. It really would depend on growth in China.

    With BMW expanding the FWD lineup, and Mercedes bringing the A and B classes to more markets, it does seem quite a bit optimistic.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Oh, I'm quite sure it's referring to a global market.

    Of course, it only seems logical that for a car to be "world class", it would need to compete in world markets.

    Isn't the ATS intended for the world markets where BMW 3-series (and the like) cars are marketed?

    It certainly needs to be, IMO...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure.

    Europe is entering an austerity stage, the US is crowded and already competitive. Growth will come from China.

    They could try Brazil, but I bet my compatriots don't even know what Cadillac is.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Crosstour bombed

    Spotted one today and if it boiled down to two choices, I'd take the Aztek.

    My brother's '05 Odyssey was good enough that he got a '12 after putting ~130k on the first one. His kiddo is still bemoaning the loss of the Avalanche.

    Maybe GM will bring it back (Honda should bring back the Element and let the Accord fans suffer without a hatchback).
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Am I the only one that thinks this objective seems a bit optimistic?

    Nope.

    What they want and what they get are usually very different things.

    Don't forget the originally wanted to sell 60K Volts/year. The year to date number? Currently 19K and change as of the end of October.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Don't forget the originally wanted to sell 60K Volts/year. The year to date number? Currently 19K and change as of the end of October.

    With GMs track record, the Volt will be cancelled about the time those sales goals are met;)
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Yes, we've been saying this for years. The CTS was built and designed from day 1 to compete with the 5 series. Which it does very well.

    GM decided to simply not offer the smaller ATS in America for several years. Now that they have, well, the 3 series has some rough competition. Stuffing that 3.6 DI engine into a car like that is going to serve notice that if there's one thing GM still can do, it's build muscle cars.

    Oh, sorry - I mean "sport sedans" or whatever they are calling these 300-400hp tire shredding monsters.

    GM's kind of like Harley. For years they made great vehicles, and then they kind of fell apart a long, long time. But there was always the promise and knowledge that when they decided to get serious, they'd come out with something completely awesome and outrageous. They're finally getting going again and making great cars. Not great in terms of absolute performance, necessarily, but great in their attitude and feel. GM's got a bit of its muscle car soul back again.

    I hear there's even talk of an ATS-V. Basically a 4 door Corvette. Going to ruin so many people's day with that one. :P
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    GM decided to simply not offer the smaller ATS in America for several years.

    Dude what are you smoking and where can I get some? :shades: The ATS didn't exist until 2012. It was developed in Michigan off of the Alpha platform.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Plus a 3.6 powered ATS is still slower than a 335 despite having 20 more HP. That's the nice thing about forced induction, gives a nice torque boost at lower rpm.

    Now that's not to say the ATS isn't impressive. I don't see it outselling the 3 series anytime soon, for a variety of reasons.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,929
    What about Audi's S4. Seems like the best bargain of the bunch. Cadillac needs to lower prices 20% across the board.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think all of GM is going the other way Andres. Just saw that the refreshed 2013 Lambda trio (Acadia, etc.) added a few features and some lipstick, but in return are substantially upping prices by several grand. Ford seems to be doing some of this too. I guess they're thinking all pricing is going up because of growing demand from America's aging fleet? But Japan seems to often be doing the opposite. I don't get it, but can't blame them if they can get it I guess.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    They did sell a "BLS" in Europe for several years while not offering it in the U.S. This was occupying the slot below the CTS, or essentially a previous generation ATS.

    Typical of U.S. consumers, we think we're the center of automotive. But the CTS is just one of several models in their global lineup and plans. It always was a mid-sized sedan built to compete with the 5, the E, and so on.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_BLS
    Note the paragraph where they mention "Future plans". Also note how the BLS was styled to look almost exactly like a smaller first gen CTS.

    So expecting the CTS to compete with a much smaller and more agile 3 series... well, it wasn't going to work. GM knows Americans dislike small cars and sometimes they decide to just not sell the smaller ones in the U.S.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The ATS doesn't have the Europe cred. And trying to sell it in Germany is pointless. Sell it in Britain, Spain, Greece, Italy, etc. The Germans and French will likely stick to their own domestics until Caddy develops more of a rep.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    So you're saying that the ATS already existed because GM sold a rebadged Saab in Europe as a Caddy? And you wonder why people think GM fanboys have no credibility? :shades:

    Basically, that's like saying Chevy always had the Cruze because they used to sell the Vega and Citation.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited November 2012
    "GM knows Americans dislike small cars and sometimes they decide to just not sell the smaller ones in the U.S."

    You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

    You say Americans dislike small cars, yet BMW 3-series type cars have done well here. Now, after years, even decades, Cadillac has seen fit to compete against 3-series "type" vehicles.

    Honestly, how could anyone at GM NOT seen the success that BMW, MB, Audi and others were having over the last decade with "small" cars?

    It all goes back to the idea that "small cars mean small profits", and every previous attempt the Big-3 made at offering something along those lines were "cheapened-out" versions that had no real chance against well built, high quality imports from Germany and Japan.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "GM's kind of like Harley. For years they made great vehicles, and then they kind of fell apart a long, long time. But there was always the promise and knowledge that when they decided to get serious, they'd come out with something completely awesome and outrageous. They're finally getting going again and making great cars. Not great in terms of absolute performance, necessarily, but great in their attitude and feel. GM's got a bit of its muscle car soul back again. "

    To be honest, I question how much you actually know about Harley Davidson's history.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited November 2012
    (from wikipedia)
    "In 1969, American Machine and Foundry (AMF) bought the company, streamlined production, and slashed the workforce. This tactic resulted in a labor strike and a lower quality of bikes. The bikes were expensive and inferior in performance, handling, and quality to Japanese motorcycles. Sales and quality declined, and the company almost went bankrupt."

    It took them until 1986 to start their recovery. They had over 15 years where they simply sucked and were mis-managed into the ground, while the imports ate them for lunch. And it took them until 1990 when they finally became the sales leader again in large engine motorcycles.

    You know, to me, it sounds a hell of a lot like GM. Just move everything twenty years forward (1989-2006) and it's like history repeating itself. And GM finally started building great cars around 2010 - about the same four years it took Harley to get up and running again after some new management and designs were added.

    Now, true, the bailout was different, and thankfully the progress they started was allowed to continue.

    GM *can* build some awesome vehicles. The problem is that for nearly 20 years, all you got was rental fodder and the rare exception. Thankfully the bit of soul still is there from the old days. Much like how Harley was able to bring back its old glory, I hope to see GM do the same. And they look like they just might do it if they keep this sort of thing up.
    ****

    About the BTS, I don't have to prove anything. It's GM's own literature and designs that are the proof. And, yes, it was a re-worked Saab. And yes, it sucked. Well, so did the first generation CTS. Terrible interior and styling out of a kid's toybox.

    The old BTS/CTS sucked. The replacement ATS/CTS models are much better. But you'll notice how the CTS was always the larger of the two options.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Ford Making 12% margins this quarter, GM at 7.8%. And they have a special tax deal, don't forget.

    GM needs to improve their profitability. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121126/AUTO0102/211260333/Ford-leads-rivals- -profits-per-vehicle?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
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