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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Ford Making 12% margins this quarter, GM at 7.8%. And they have a special tax deal, don't forget.

    IMO, GM having the oldest pickups of the D3 has to be hurting margins. They're advertising up to $9k in rebates around here on Silverados. The F150 is selling more units with less discounts.

    Plus it seems Ford has done a better job reducing production to product demand.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I wonder how cheap I could get a Silverado roughly equivalent to my Ram? I just checked www.cars.com and it looks like the cheapest Silverado would be a leftover 2012 work truck, regular cab, 8-foot bed, V-6/4-speed, crank windows, real strippo in general, for about $18K.

    In contrast, mine came out to about $18.5K (plus freight, tax, etc, OTD price was $20,751), but that was with the Hemi/6-speed, power windows/locks, cruise, Siruis radio, remote entry with 3 fobs (I bargained for the third), sliding rear window (bargained for that too), carpeting, floor mats, a trailer hitch, Suregrip (or whatever they call it these days), upgraded wheels/tires, spray in bedliner, and probably one or two things I'm missing.

    So it makes me wonder...is Chrysler really hurting so bad that they're willing to sell something like that at a big loss? Or could the stripper Silverado I found for an internet price of $18K really be had for a lot less?

    I did try pricing a Silverado 1500 work truck on Edmunds, with the 5.3 and other upgrades to make it more comparable, and came out with a TMV of $23,069, which includes freight and a $3,000 rebate. Freight is $995 for it as well as my truck, so adding the freight back onto my price would bring it up to about $19,500. So there's still about a $3500 difference there.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited November 2012
    Ford Making 12% margins this quarter, GM at 7.8%. And they have a special tax deal, don't forget.

    But yet stock wise F is up 22% vis a vis GM is up 20%. I would expect more from F with 53% higher margins.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    GM's stock price is still somewhat artificial because so much is held by the government.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don't forget the originally wanted to sell 60K Volts/year

    Volts or EVs? I wonder if they included the upcoming Caddy in that projection.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Chevy Volt again ranked by Consumer Reports as most-loved car

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20121129/OEM/121129874#ixzz2DdAOVWCv

    All the CR haters please disregard completely. :P

    Sales have been building, they're close to 3k/month just in the USA. Add a Caddy version and they could potentially see 5k or so.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Are you kidding? It's the car that people who like CR, love to hate!

    I wouldn't buy one, but it's a fairly nice-looking car I think and it's clobbering the Nissan Leaf, which I believe is polar opposite of conventional wisdom on this board earlier (ahem).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Spark out

    Where are all the Internet shills who bashed the Leaf and all electric cars?

    That's right, the agenda has changed, electric cars are OK now... :sick:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Are you kidding? It's the car that people who like CR, love to hate!

    So a survey from a pool of subscribers that supposedly hate the Volt rated it number one?

    Must have been sample size error;)
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Sounds like you got a heck of a deal on your Ram.

    Chrysler has recent upped the rebates on Rams too. I do like the current Ram a lot. I think I'll wait until so I can try the Hemi with an 8 speed and see what the FE looks like.

    At this point, I'm considering an F150 crewcab lariat with an ecoboost or 5.0 vs a crewcab Ram with hemi and Laramie or sport. But OTOH, I'm not quite ready to give up a 3row full size SUV so I might consider a used Suburban or Expedition EL.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    92% said definitely Yes when asked if they would buy it again. Down from 93% last year (wait for the spin doctors...LOL).

    V6 GM pickups did not do well, but they are older designs competing with newer V6s from the competition, so no surprise. Nissan fared poorly, with the Armada and Versa, plus the Leaf.

    Corvette also did really well.

    Suzuki and Mitsubishi also had low scoring models. Suzuki is gone and I've been predicting Mitsu is next in line.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited November 2012
    "In 1969, American Machine and Foundry (AMF) bought the company, streamlined production, and slashed the workforce. This tactic resulted in a labor strike and a lower quality of bikes. The bikes were expensive and inferior in performance, handling, and quality to Japanese motorcycles. Sales and quality declined, and the company almost went bankrupt."

    It took them until 1986 to start their recovery. They had over 15 years where they simply sucked and were mis-managed into the ground, while the imports ate them for lunch. And it took them until 1990 when they finally became the sales leader again in large engine motorcycles.

    You know, to me, it sounds a hell of a lot like GM. Just move everything twenty years forward (1989-2006) and it's like history repeating itself. And GM finally started building great cars around 2010 - about the same four years it took Harley to get up and running again after some new management and designs were added.


    That's all true, but there were other significant factors as well.

    The 1947 Hollister "invasion" was the distorted "news event" that put a negative light on bikers for decades, and gave rise to the biker bad-boy movies of the 50's-70's. No one recalls ever hearing of a bunch of Cadillac drivers invading a town and turning it into a drunken orgy.

    In the 60's, Harley was also the first vehicle manufacturer to get hit with cheap Japanese bike imports, which was one of the main reasons AMF came into play. Before and during AMF's ownership, quality declined as cost-cutting ruled the day. AMF had no idea how to run a motorcycle manufacturing company.

    On the other hand, GM held Cadillac 100% of the time post WWII, and they had quite a bit of experience in car making. Also, when Japanese imports finally hit the car scene, luxury level cars such as Cadillac were the last to be targeted.

    Whereas HD got hit by a Tsunami in the middle of the night, Cadillac had years to see it coming.

    In the 1980's, HD ownership changed and was managed by a group that fully understood the domestic motorcycle market, and the market psyche as well. That background and knowledge allowed HD to do great things.

    IMO, that's the main difference today between HD and Cadillac.

    I think the CTS has done a pretty good job of giving Cadillac an improved image (domestically), and it looks certain that the ATS will be able to build upon that even more.

    The big 800lb gorilla in the room for all GM products is the labor-related cost figure that has yet to be fully addressed.

    As George Will recently opined in his column, GM is a health provider that manufactures cars to generate revenue.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    GM is above average, both luxury and mainstream brands:

    http://www.jdpower.com/content/press-release/ItN986X/2012-u-s-sales-satisfaction- -index-ssi-study.htm

    Seems like dealers are doing a good job overall.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sad because most Americans would rather have a stupid SUV or ugly cross-over instead of a proper wagon. If I want a Cadillac wagon, I'll get something like this:

    image
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Pretty ambitious. The last time Cadillac did something like that was in 1978.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I think you need to review "ugly" in the dictionary. :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    An ATS-V? I could get into some serious trouble with that one! :shades:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I agree, that Caddy wagon is hideous
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The 1947 Hollister "invasion" was the inspiration for the Marlon Brando movie "The Wild One."
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I agree, that Caddy wagon is hideous

    Yeah, as much as I love those old 70's beasts, that conversion just doesn't work. The problem is that it looks like they tried to get by on the cheap, using the side windows from a B-body wagon. The wagons has a more upright C-pillar than the sedans, and the doors of the wagons were flat across the top, rather than tapering downward towards the back, so they blended in better.

    To really work right, that Caddy would have needed custom body work at the back to truly fit the shape of the car, rather than just trying to take a 4-door C-body and force-fitting a B-body wagon rear. Or, if they were going to use the B-body wagon like they did, they should have done some custom work on the rear doors, to make it all flow better.

    It also looks like they made the taillights on that Caddy wagon more vertical than they would be on the sedan/coupe, and that makes it seem more awkward to me.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Sad because most Americans would rather have a stupid SUV

    Yes I would!

    I've yet to see a full size wagon with a usable 3rd row seat. No way would I want to sit facing backwards and getting into the 3rd row is a major PITA for anyone over 12. Plus a rear facing back seat can't be very safe.

    I use the 3rd row in the Expedition often. Drove my daughter + 6 other 14 year old girls home last night from after school activities.

    Now I do like midsize wagons, but if you need a usable 3rd row a minivan or full-size SUV (for those who need to tow something heavy) is far better IMO than a traditional fullsize wagon.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We owned an Olds Custom Cruiser that looked almost identical to that.

    Sorry to say but those were not good memories. The suspension floated like crazy, you'd get car sick in the rear facing 3rd row, and for some reason the transmission had trouble finding 1st gear. It would delay, delay, then SLAM in to first.

    I went to college without a car rather than keeping that. Seriously. Walked and biked and took the bus until I got my motorcycle.

    I think the experience was so bad that I block it from memory. The CTS wagon certainly helps.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But yet stock wise F is up 22% vis a vis GM is up 20%. I would expect more from F with 53% higher margins.

    Perhaps the GM stock price is already depressed due to low expectations?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Volts or EVs? I wonder if they included the upcoming Caddy in that projection.

    No, that was the Volt projection for 2012, made in 2011.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I wouldn't buy one, but it's a fairly nice-looking car I think and it's clobbering the Nissan Leaf, which I believe is polar opposite of conventional wisdom on this board earlier (ahem).

    I think most of us admire the tech in the Volt. What is a poor business decision at $40K could be an oustanding vehicle at $20K. Their challenge is to sell it at a low enough price to have it make sense to consumers, while still being able to make money on it. That I'm not so sure they can do, but I'm sure they are trying.

    Your comment is just like my comment - we like it but we wouldn't buy it at that price point. If it were a lot cheaper it would be a runaway success.

    The Leaf is a lot cheaper but doesn't have the practicality of the gas engine, so the Volt is clearly better in the functionality department -- but at the higher price.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think the Spark is kind of cute. At that price it might sell pretty well -- but we don't know the range, yet.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I agree, that Caddy wagon is hideous

    +1
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Keep in mind that Caddy didn't make that. It was a conversion done by an outside company.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Y'know, I think if they used a 1980 or newer Cadillac (or Electra/98) for that conversion, it might have worked better. The '77-79 Caddy has sort of a downward taper toward the rear, and that's another reason why that graft-job doesn't work. But the '80+ models were more squared off and straight-out in the back, so a wagon conversion might have blended better.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited November 2012
    Not the only Caddy wagon to be awkward:

    I like clamshells, but this is disjointed - image

    image

    This on the other hand is pimpy enough to work:

    image

    image

    Caddy wasn't alone in odd aftermarket conversions:

    image

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    $32,500 is too spendy for the Spark EV. Incentives will get it down to $22-25k, depending upon your state, but it's a teeny car so how much gas are you going save anyway? The $12,245 for a regular Spark seems like a bargain.

    Smart EV is only a 2 seater but they priced that far more aggressively at $25k. The conventional car is $12,490, same price as a Spark.

    Incentives will bring that one down to $14.5-17.5k or so. That's the same price as the conventional gas model. That's more like it.

    GM can't charge $20 grand more for the EV. That's a head scratcher.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    2 days and still no response??? He must be reading them and gagging on his vomit.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited November 2012
    From what I understand the the battery pack in the Spark EV is a 20kw lithium ion. The cost per kilowatt for EV lithium batteries is approximately $600/kw (from what I've read anyway), so that's $12k just for the battery pack. That's GMs cost, so it probably adds $15k + to the retail price of the car. That's just off the top of my head. I don't have a clue regarding how GM would mark up such things.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....No one recalls ever hearing of a bunch of Cadillac drivers invading a town and turning it into a drunken orgy."

    No, but for years Caddy (and to a smaller degree, Lincoln) had the image of being driven by mobsters, gansters and pimps. Even "gangstas", thanks to the Escalade. That wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the brand.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....I use the 3rd row in the Expedition often. Drove my daughter + 6 other 14 year old girls home last night from after school activities."

    WTF did you do to deserve THAT???? LOL.

    Has the headache subsided yet?
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited November 2012
    You know, if you're into conspiracy theories, you have to suspect something is going on here (I'm not, BTW....).

    Each time fuel prices trend upward, they seem to peak at just about the same time the newest, latest and greatest wave of unconventional-powered vehicles hit the market.

    Regarding the Volt (and its spawned models that are coming), my personal feeling is that we shouldn't bark too,loudly about governmental support and subsidization of the Volt... At least, for some period of time.

    Even though we seem to continuously "discover" new oil fields, it is, in the end, a finite resource. But, the way it's trending, however, I'm beginning to suspect carbon emissions will ultimately have the final say on the pricing of combustible petroleum products we use to make our cars go. The cost of locating, collecting, refining and delivering petro-products may sooner, rather than later, take a back-seat to the costs of dealing with emissions from burning those products.

    From a practical standpoint, vehicles like the Volt are a real alternative in that area. That's why I'm cutting the Volt some slack in the short-term.

    As in everything, it must become economically viable to succeed, and the clock is ticking. I just don't know how long the allotted time period is...
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    ".....I use the 3rd row in the Expedition often. Drove my daughter + 6 other 14 year old girls home last night from after school activities."

    WTF did you do to deserve THAT???? LOL.

    Has the headache subsided yet?


    ROTLMAO!!!! No kidding! A Smart Car was sounding good at the time;) Seems my daughter thinks I'm the late bus.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    At least, mobsters, gangsters and pimps usually drive somewhere close to the speed limit, don't have blue hair, don't go 15 mph slower than the posted 35 mph speed limit, and know how to turn the blinker off....

    LOL!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    What? Paint it black, man! You don't want this! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2012
    Each time fuel prices trend upward, they seem to peak at just about the same time the newest, latest and greatest wave of unconventional-powered vehicles hit the market.

    Depending on where you live though, your Volt may be plugged into a utility that uses oil/natural gas to generate the juice. In lots of ways though, it's nice to concentrate the emissions in discrete "industrial" spots and try to use best practices to minimize them. Unless you live downwind or your faucet tap lights up when you stick a match to it.

    A friend gave me an electric shovel and it's easier moving snow around with the lightweight hand shovel than plugging it in. But I did notice an 18" full-on snowblower on the market that's all electric. Sure don't miss my gas mower. :)

    I think it would be good for GM to port a Volt over to Cadillac.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    At $20K, I'd already have a Volt.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Hess and Eisenhardt, the builder of hearses, used to make a Cadillac wagon based on the DeVille/Brougham.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, even Rolls-Royce got in on the act:

    image
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    A friend gave me an electric shovel and it's easier moving snow around with the lightweight hand shovel than plugging it in.

    Here in coastal CA your statement doesn't even register in my comprehension. I suspect for Gary as well.

    Does GM make snowblowers? Perhaps they should.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    for years Caddy (and to a smaller degree, Lincoln) had the image of being driven by mobsters, gansters and pimps. Even "gangstas", thanks to the Escalade. That wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the brand.

    Of course, decades back it was either Bonnie and Clyde or John Dillinger I believe who gave a ringing endorsement of the Ford V8, and it was great PR back then for the brand.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Paint it black

    Great Rolling Stones song!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2012
    Buy me a lift ticket to Mammoth and a plane ticket and I'll lug it out there and demonstrate it. :shades:

    Somewhere out there is a plow attachment for your Silverado 3500 that likely blows the stuff as well as pushes it around. (Found one)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Yeah, we do get a LOT of snow in Mammoth. But it's a bit of a drive.

    Mammoth Mountain
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited November 2012
    Depending on where you live though, your Volt may be plugged into a utility that uses oil/natural gas to generate the juice. In lots of ways though, it's nice to concentrate the emissions in discrete "industrial" spots and try to use best practices to minimize them. Unless you live downwind or your faucet tap lights up when you stick a match to it.

    Of course, you're correct.

    Still, cars like the Volt aren't directly tied to electricity generated by fossil fuels.

    Solar can do it, and as we get more proficient at making solar panels more efficient, the promise of cleaner energy increases. Wind is another possibility. And, in many cases, the cars can be relegated to being charged on "off-peak" hours. This is the strategy that Germany as accepted in a big way.

    If nothing else, it gives us options that continuing to use internal combustion engines simply can't provide. I'm certainly no "greenie", but I do see the possibilities that the Volt , at least in theory, can provide.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My off-grid friends down near Taos really should trade in their Subaru and Echo for a Volt, but it's 20 miles to the grocery. One way. Forget the Sugar Free Oreos halfway home and range anxiety will set in big time. :shades:
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