There are a lot of potential issues on electrics, but I wouldn't write GM off. The company can do some amazing stuff when it puts it's mind and effort into it. Heck, some are saying that Ford is pulling ahead of Toyota and the rest of the Asians on hybrids lately. As for electrics, resolve hot and cold weather battery issues and add some range - that will potentially up volume in urban areas allowing costs to come down. With the often rapid advances in electronics, I learned long ago to never say "never"! Put me in the column of rooting for GM to turn around. UAW or not, I'd like to see a strong Detroit again. It's good for competition and good for America.
Just looked it up - the Smart EV has a 16.5kw battery.
Still, you wouldn't think 3.5kw would cost an extra $10 grand. At the $600/kw rate that justifies a premium of $2,100.
Seems like the Smart bombed badly, and they are rebooting with probably what the ForTwo should have been in the first place, a quirky little EV. Wonder if they'll be sold at a loss?
some are saying that Ford is pulling ahead of Toyota and the rest of the Asians on hybrids lately
I've been following the C Max closely, at a short-lister for my next car, and the real world numbers have been disappointing. EPA is 5 better but the it loses to the Prius V in the real world, and it's smaller to boot.
Funny thing is Hyundai is the one in hot water. Maybe Ford will get some heat soon as well? They're not even close to the claimed 47mpg.
A Volt could help their marketing believe it or not (they sell to the adventure tourism crowd), but they can always use the "drive them forever" green card like I do.
And maybe a Volt could be tinkered with and run their house if the panels got blown off their moorings.
I think you're right about Ford too; it's gotta be bad if even my wife notices the complaints about the C-Max mpg.
Eh, throw Chrysler on there as well...my new Ram is rated at 14 city and I've only been averaging 13.5 in mostly-local driving! :P
Seriously though, if I bought something expecting to get 47 mpg and it was only getting 38.5 mpg, I'd be pretty miffed!
The CMax just came out, right? Maybe the colder weather has been hurting its estimates so far, and they'll hopefully even out as time progresses and we get a few warm months worth of data thrown into the mix?
Ford should be investigated as well. I'd be MIFFED if I was told I'd get 47mpg then only got 38.5mpg.
Oh I have no issue with that but the C-Max has been out for about a month. The public has to give it some time to get a real cross section. Further, nobody is being told they'll get 47 mpg. They are told that the EPA test showed 47 mpg and it is for comparison only. AFAIK, it's not a promise!!
Unfortunately, the internet has made it too easy to complain about things and we're all too quick to point fingers and make accusations.
As andre notes, it's getting colder as well and mileage will drop off. Heck, I've seen my Explorer go from high 18's in city driving to low 17's in the past week with the drop in temps.
I believe it was on this board where comparisons were made about the Malibu sizing down to approaching the Cruze in interior room and to make room for the new Impala. Just looking on eBay at earlier Chevs for sale and I was reminded how incredibly close in dimensions that '70's Nova coupes and Chevelle coupes were. Nova was on a 111 inch wheelbase; Chevelle coupes, 112. Nova rear seat legroom was 33.4 compared to 32.9 in the Chevelle...actually larger ('73 models). Nova trunk room was down about half a cubic foot from Chevelle's. And Novas cost a good bit less. I always thought a Nova seemed/felt like a big, small car and a Chevelle (at least '73 and later) felt like a smaller big car, though--no doubt due to coil springs all around and a perimeter frame on the Chevelle.
Also, when downsizing started, a '77 Caprice was on the same wheelbase as a Chevelle sedan but was shorter and lighter. In '78, the Malibu was shorter and lighter than the Nova.
And my '11 Malibu was on a longer wheelbase (by about 1 1/2 inches I believe) than the same year Impala.
So it's all nothing new.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Exactly. GM is far behind the competition. Sound redundant? Necessary to keep reminding GM that it's underpinning culture is still broken.
Here is another reminder why the designs are behind the times:
You may already know about General Motors’s effort to bring 90 percent of its IT efforts in-house over the next several years will result in the hiring of thousands of new employees around the world. But the endeavor is not about saving GM money ; according to GM Chief Information Officer Randy Mott; instead, GM is focused on improving its ability to design software and data systems used to make vehicles.
GM needs some hits in its bread-and butter Chevy brand, which accounts for about 75% of its vehicle sales in the U.S. Years ago, GM could credibly tout Chevrolet as American as baseball and apple pie. But a string of poor quality cars and its government-backed bankruptcy have left GM with a tarnished image, and it is paying a price. Through the end of the third-quarter, GM’s market share stood at 17.6%, compared with 19.7% in the same period of 2011.
What happened to Baseball and Apple Pie cars?
The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration issues a report each year that details the cars that are made in America. The report looks at where the parts, the transmission and the engine come from.
According to the latest report, the most "American car" is the Toyota Avalon, which is built in Georgetown, Kentucky. Eighty-five percent of that car's parts are sourced from the U.S and Canada — a higher percentage than for any car made by a U.S.-based manufacturer. Honda just celebrated its 30th anniversary in the U.S.
Welcome to the New Standard of the World which GM, Ford and C created. Love it or Leave it!
Ahh, but remember, Chevrolet runs deep like an exciting heartbeat rock that you can see the USA's apple pie and baseball in.
And like most of Chevrolet's marketing, it completely avoids talking about the actual cars. When your main talking point is the country your home office is located in, you have problems. But hey, obviously GM management must know better than me, it's not like their business practices drove them to bankruptcy or anything, right?
Come on dieselone, it's folks like circlew who knocked the Volt right out of the box--like the Camaro, BTW--and are deafening in their silence when good things are said about it.
I do think, however, there is some psychology involved. It's the car that no doubt had the most negatives publicly said about it....owners probably do feel compelled to thumb their noses at all that. I do think there's a certain mentality in common to owners of the Volt...better-off, high self-esteem about being 'green', etc.
Looks nice, I hear it's remarkably quiet...but I won't spend that money on a car although I could afford to (at least before my kid started college this year).
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
According to the latest report, the most "American car" is the Toyota Avalon, which is built in Georgetown, Kentucky
This is good news, of course...their most-expensive nameplate takes that title. Of course, they came here with none of the baggage the Big Three have/had.
I am convinced that the major decisions are still made in Japan, and that the culture of the company is largely Japanese (Samurai swords given to dealers by Japanese management, etc.). Still, of course, IMHO this greatly beats the old Toyotas that sold in large numbers here that were zero percent American.
Honestly, I wouldn't spend that money for a car that looks like that.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Come on dieselone, it's folks like circlew who knocked the Volt right out of the box--like the Camaro, BTW--and are deafening in their silence when good things are said about it.
I don't think anyone was directly knocking the volt in terms of design or capability (though I will say efficiency isn't very impressive once the battery is depleted). It's always been the money aspect. Personally, I'm mixed on the Volt. To me the looks are so-so and only having seating for 4 is an issue. Bottom line, at this point gas prices still aren't high enough for me to justify the cost. The Volt is an impressive piece of engineering, no question.
BTW, I was thumbing threw the current R&T or C&D (can't remember which), on their 10 best list, the Boss 302 was picked over the Camaro ZL1;) No GM cars were on the list, though Ford had 2, the Focus and Mustang;)
As usual though, Ford can't "Escape" their Detroit roots. Another serious recall for the Fusion and Escape. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Ahh, but remember, Chevrolet runs deep like an exciting heartbeat rock that you can see the USA's apple pie and baseball in.
Their marketing is horrible. Perhaps if they had an image they were actually striving for, they might get there.
With baseball and apple pie it seems that their advertising was just appealing to the patriotism of citizens to "not buy those non-US cars". But of course we know that the most US-sourced cars don't come from Chevy these days.
And now this "Chevy runs deep" silliness. What does THAT mean? Does it mean that the car is low to the ground? That the running engine is deep in the engine compartment? That the spirit of Chevy is (haha) supposed to be deep in my soul?
Even other mass marketers like Toyota and Honda have images that relate to the vehicles. Chevy should come up with a plan to *stand for something* related to their actual vehicles - something that actually is positive. And then make their vehicles match THAT.
Honestly, you can call me a Luddite because I don't really see the advantage to all of this touch screen stuff. Give me back my knobs and buttons - Please!
PS - wait a few years until people start experiencing the durability and related repair bills for touch screen. Nothing wrong with a cheap and reliable rheostat instead.
Seeing that only 20K have been sold in the U.S. and Canada, it's not like it's a screaming success. When the price drops without the subsidy, then it will sell more mainstream. GM still doesn't lead, even on Green Street!
Volt Sales YTD = 19,309 Prius Sales YTD =200,114
The Camaro? Did you forget the horrible launch details? It's people like you that hide those details under the carpet. You work for Chevy, right? :lemon:
More like "Built Ford Tough." or "Have you driven a Ford lately?" or "Zoom Zoom" or "Das Auto" or even Caddy's "ATS vs. the World" campaign, which proves GM actually DOES know how to do a marketing campaign about the CAR. Not sure if that makes the whole Chevy thing better or worse. Is it only the Chevy division that doesn't know how to market cars? Or is it perhaps that Chevy knows they can't market the cars themselves because they don't measure up?
Goes to show you how important a transmission is. And that's tricky, because even barring the manual/auto debate, a driver is looking for a sporty sort of transmission that gives them control and is slick to use, and an appliance shopper is simply looking for a transmission that is smooth and stays out of the way. And generally someone looking for one won't be happy with the other.
I'm willing to bet the A/T version would prove more worthy. Either way, GM is finally getting it and the upcoming Buick GN/GNX on the same platform as the ATS has my attention as well. Ditto the Chevy SS.
Talk about avoiding relevant facts...you are the 'Standard of the World' for that!
You predicted the Camaro as a whopping failure at launch time.
Guess what? For years it outsold the Mustang, even with one less bodystyle and without the refresh the Mustang had. Just last month the Mustang eked out a small sales improvement on the Camaro. "Aha! I was right"!!
Sheesh.
I believe you also predicted the Leaf would outsell the Volt.
You could get a job at a polling company!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I can guarantee, though, that the ATS will cost a lot less in upkeep. It's already about $70 cheaper to lease one as well, and you can actually contemplate buying it at the end of the lease while you're stuck with leasing another BMW.
In terms of raw performance, the BMW has a small edge. But it's also a lot harsher riding and you have to flog the poor things to death to get a measurable difference between the two vehicles.
I every-day driving, it's too close to call. Except for the better warranty, lower cost to maintain, (not to mention it works fine without premium gas), and much better reliability.
It seems like a clear win for the ATS after you leave the test track and actually own one.
EDIT: Of course GM manuals suck. GM makes among the best automatics in the world, though. The engine is also designed with the automatic's gearing in mind.
There is no prediction about it. The Camaro was a whopping failure at launch. Tell you what: You define what a successful auto launch is and let me know if the Camaro passes. :lemon:
Guess what? The Mustang out sold the Camaro historically because GM stopped making them. Ford did not. Which company sold more? As an auditor you should be able to verify that.
I believe I did not predict the Leaf would outsell the Volt.
You should get a job as a GM lawyer! You would ALWAYS be right!
Comments
Still, you wouldn't think 3.5kw would cost an extra $10 grand. At the $600/kw rate that justifies a premium of $2,100.
Seems like the Smart bombed badly, and they are rebooting with probably what the ForTwo should have been in the first place, a quirky little EV. Wonder if they'll be sold at a loss?
Problem is they could get a 35mpg Impreza and a Prius C (both) for the price of a new Volt.
If they're off the grid do they even pay $7500 in taxes to qualify for the rebate?
Or just get a Cruze Eco or a used TDI and convert it to burn recycled fry oil, then the exhaust will smell like french fries. :shades:
I've been following the C Max closely, at a short-lister for my next car, and the real world numbers have been disappointing. EPA is 5 better but the it loses to the Prius V in the real world, and it's smaller to boot.
Funny thing is Hyundai is the one in hot water. Maybe Ford will get some heat soon as well? They're not even close to the claimed 47mpg.
And maybe a Volt could be tinkered with and run their house if the panels got blown off their moorings.
I think you're right about Ford too; it's gotta be bad if even my wife notices the complaints about the C-Max mpg.
Elantra EPA combined of 32 yet owners on the EPA site report 28.9 average, on fuelly it's 29.9, 30.1, and 30.5 by year.
C Max is rated 47mpg and they average 40.5. Fuelly has it even worse, just 38.5mpg.
Hyundai off by 9.7% at most, Ford off by 13.8% at least.
I've always thought the GM hybrid pickups could be set up this way. Seriously, as a real generator.
Imagine marketing that right now to any of the states affected by Sandy. Ford, Dodge, or GM? I bet GM would pick up (pardon the pun) 5% more share.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/29/c7-corvettes-second-video-teases-digital-gaug- es/
These were pioneered on the Lexus LF-A, now the Vette is getting them.
Pretty sweet looking.
Hopefully they do a really cool Super Bowl commercial. The timing is perfect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igC6u-opjrE&feature=player_embedded#!
And Mercedes-Benz Cars Advanced Design Studios actually collaborated on that.
There's a difference - Hyundai fudged their numbers and were caught. AFAIK, Ford hasn't been accused of or had fraud proven.
I'd be MIFFED if I was told I'd get 47mpg then only got 38.5mpg.
Seriously though, if I bought something expecting to get 47 mpg and it was only getting 38.5 mpg, I'd be pretty miffed!
The CMax just came out, right? Maybe the colder weather has been hurting its estimates so far, and they'll hopefully even out as time progresses and we get a few warm months worth of data thrown into the mix?
Oh I have no issue with that but the C-Max has been out for about a month. The public has to give it some time to get a real cross section. Further, nobody is being told they'll get 47 mpg. They are told that the EPA test showed 47 mpg and it is for comparison only. AFAIK, it's not a promise!!
Unfortunately, the internet has made it too easy to complain about things and we're all too quick to point fingers and make accusations.
As andre notes, it's getting colder as well and mileage will drop off. Heck, I've seen my Explorer go from high 18's in city driving to low 17's in the past week with the drop in temps.
Sure do hope the numbers improve...
I like those, just-right sized, zippy, cute for what it is.
That's funny, his name is Rockefeller and they're whining about a couple of mpg.
Gotta wonder if he'll treat Ford the same way.
Also, when downsizing started, a '77 Caprice was on the same wheelbase as a Chevelle sedan but was shorter and lighter. In '78, the Malibu was shorter and lighter than the Nova.
And my '11 Malibu was on a longer wheelbase (by about 1 1/2 inches I believe) than the same year Impala.
So it's all nothing new.
Here is another reminder why the designs are behind the times:
You may already know about General Motors’s effort to bring 90 percent of its IT efforts in-house over the next several years will result in the hiring of thousands of new employees around the world. But the endeavor is not about saving GM money ; according to GM Chief Information Officer Randy Mott; instead, GM is focused on improving its ability to design software and data systems used to make vehicles.
Garbage in = Garbage Out!
Regards,
OW
What happened to Baseball and Apple Pie cars?
The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration issues a report each year that details the cars that are made in America. The report looks at where the parts, the transmission and the engine come from.
According to the latest report, the most "American car" is the Toyota Avalon, which is built in Georgetown, Kentucky. Eighty-five percent of that car's parts are sourced from the U.S and Canada — a higher percentage than for any car made by a U.S.-based manufacturer. Honda just celebrated its 30th anniversary in the U.S.
Welcome to the New Standard of the World which GM, Ford and C created. Love it or Leave it!
Regards,
OW
In fairness, pretty much all of them should be doing so, or just giving us docks for our iPhones and Androids. :shades:
And like most of Chevrolet's marketing, it completely avoids talking about the actual cars. When your main talking point is the country your home office is located in, you have problems. But hey, obviously GM management must know better than me, it's not like their business practices drove them to bankruptcy or anything, right?
I do think, however, there is some psychology involved. It's the car that no doubt had the most negatives publicly said about it....owners probably do feel compelled to thumb their noses at all that. I do think there's a certain mentality in common to owners of the Volt...better-off, high self-esteem about being 'green', etc.
Looks nice, I hear it's remarkably quiet...but I won't spend that money on a car although I could afford to (at least before my kid started college this year).
This is good news, of course...their most-expensive nameplate takes that title. Of course, they came here with none of the baggage the Big Three have/had.
I am convinced that the major decisions are still made in Japan, and that the culture of the company is largely Japanese (Samurai swords given to dealers by Japanese management, etc.). Still, of course, IMHO this greatly beats the old Toyotas that sold in large numbers here that were zero percent American.
Honestly, I wouldn't spend that money for a car that looks like that.
I don't think anyone was directly knocking the volt in terms of design or capability (though I will say efficiency isn't very impressive once the battery is depleted). It's always been the money aspect. Personally, I'm mixed on the Volt. To me the looks are so-so and only having seating for 4 is an issue. Bottom line, at this point gas prices still aren't high enough for me to justify the cost. The Volt is an impressive piece of engineering, no question.
BTW, I was thumbing threw the current R&T or C&D (can't remember which), on their 10 best list, the Boss 302 was picked over the Camaro ZL1;) No GM cars were on the list, though Ford had 2, the Focus and Mustang;)
As usual though, Ford can't "Escape" their Detroit roots. Another serious recall for the Fusion and Escape. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Just don't do like Ford and use Microsoft!
Their marketing is horrible. Perhaps if they had an image they were actually striving for, they might get there.
With baseball and apple pie it seems that their advertising was just appealing to the patriotism of citizens to "not buy those non-US cars". But of course we know that the most US-sourced cars don't come from Chevy these days.
And now this "Chevy runs deep" silliness. What does THAT mean? Does it mean that the car is low to the ground? That the running engine is deep in the engine compartment? That the spirit of Chevy is (haha) supposed to be deep in my soul?
Even other mass marketers like Toyota and Honda have images that relate to the vehicles. Chevy should come up with a plan to *stand for something* related to their actual vehicles - something that actually is positive. And then make their vehicles match THAT.
You mean like "Wield Precision"?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
PS - wait a few years until people start experiencing the durability and related repair bills for touch screen. Nothing wrong with a cheap and reliable rheostat instead.
Volt Sales YTD = 19,309
Prius Sales YTD =200,114
The Camaro? Did you forget the horrible launch details? It's people like you that hide those details under the carpet. You work for Chevy, right? :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Chevy = :lemon:
Had the "patriotic" appeal to it, along with demonstrating the trucks power and utility...
Had the "patriotic" appeal to it, along with demonstrating the trucks power and utility...
Yeah, if only some other company had managed to successfully lobby for that job....
3'er vs. ATS
Nice first try! People like UL won't notice but driving enthusiasts will choose the best.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
You predicted the Camaro as a whopping failure at launch time.
Guess what? For years it outsold the Mustang, even with one less bodystyle and without the refresh the Mustang had. Just last month the Mustang eked out a small sales improvement on the Camaro. "Aha! I was right"!!
Sheesh.
I believe you also predicted the Leaf would outsell the Volt.
You could get a job at a polling company!
In terms of raw performance, the BMW has a small edge. But it's also a lot harsher riding and you have to flog the poor things to death to get a measurable difference between the two vehicles.
I every-day driving, it's too close to call.
Except for the better warranty, lower cost to maintain, (not to mention it works fine without premium gas), and much better reliability.
It seems like a clear win for the ATS after you leave the test track and actually own one.
EDIT: Of course GM manuals suck. GM makes among the best automatics in the world, though. The engine is also designed with the automatic's gearing in mind.
Guess what? The Mustang out sold the Camaro historically because GM stopped making them. Ford did not. Which company sold more? As an auditor you should be able to verify that.
I believe I did not predict the Leaf would outsell the Volt.
You should get a job as a GM lawyer! You would ALWAYS be right!
Regards,
OW
Incidentally, I thumbed through the Dec. 'Popular Mechanics', and they gave the ZL-1 the "2013 Automobiles of Excellence" award for performance cars.
I don't even like the Camaro, but I'm able to admit that the current generation has been a sales success from the get-go.
I'm reminded of Fonzie on Happy Days, when friends were trying to get him to say he was wrong.
"I was w...I was wr.....I was w.....I was wr....."
By spending about two minutes, I was able to find this post of yours back when:
Well, so much for the Volt making a precedent...............
May the Best Car Win.
Regards,
OW
The post included a link that's only a little red 'x' for me now.
Not much of a case for your having said something like 'hey, maybe the Volt is a decent little car', or something of that nature.