GM News, New Models and Market Share

andre1969

Yeah, here's an example of just how far a car can plummet. 2007 Lucerne CXL V-8 for sale at the Caddy dealer where I bought my Park Ave.

They want $12,993 for it, with about 63,000 miles. I'd imagine this car MSRP'ed for around $45K new?

I have to admit, I'm slightly tempted.

ateixeira

People buy Hyundais at sticker, as well as Hondas and Subarus.

Dunno about that.

It's true that Subaru and Hyundai have the lowest incentives per vehicle, but dealers still sell most of them at invoice all day long.

The market it just too competitive.

tlong

Is every other model of car bragged up on this GM forum something that GM competes with directly? If the good can be posted, the bad should be too. Balance, remember.

I assume you want GM to be class-leading. If so, it should be compared to the class leaders.

OTOH, if you want GM to be mediocre or worse then of course, let's compare them to all the other dreck.

fintail

Speaking of Lucerne, the Chevy dealer I pass by several times a week has 3 (!) of them in the used car section. One is a 4-holer, 2006, pearl white on beige, looks clean, they want $10.9 for it - but it has 84K on it, not the lowest mileage. The others are 6cyl models.

I wonder what a 45K MSRP Lucerne actually sold for. Do the grandparents pay sticker? :shades:

tlong

But if that video is accurate (and I have no reason to not think so), that crash test in the year 2012 is rather scary, even though crashworthiness is not the first thing I'm looking for in a car. I guess like everything else, one expects Toyota to be 'top of the game'.

I agree. I'm surprised Toyota has missed it so badly here. They have grown too much and definitely seem to have the older GM disease.

Sometimes it's best NOT to be the market leader. Pushing for that can take your eye off the ball for quality products.

ateixeira

You forgot to mention the only 2 cars in that class that earned a "Good" score were both Japanese nameplates - Honda and Suzuki.

The 'bu was Marginal so it needs work as well. Fusion was acceptable. It less than acceptable, then, unacceptable?

If that test matters to you, then get an Accord, since Suzuki is basically gone. Could this be the boost that Honda needs to take over the #1 spot from Toyota? Could be....

The IIHS Small Overlap Crash is brutal, even lux makes have struggled with it, including Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus.

busiris

Oh, I agree completely.

And that was the basis of my comments... The perception that Fiat/Chrysler has done, and continues to do better than GM, at least so far..

uplanderguy

My wife wouldn't even stroll over to glance at an Impala when we were looking at cars in 2011. She had the perception of 'old person's car'.

I still believe the LT model which comes with the aluminum wheels that the LTZ had in '07 I think, and available without a rear spoiler, is a handsome car. I do think a car that size should have a bigger backseat. I do like the 3.6 and if I had to buy one, I believe I'd look for a bench...more sensation of 'space', without a console bumping up against your leg. My friend with an '08 Impala hates this, but I rather like the beige seats with all else in the car being black.

ateixeira

They had a *lot* more room for improvement.

Chrysler's Pentastar V6 has transformed nearly every vehicle it's been put in. Cars like the Caliber/Compass were embarassingly bad.

GM already had a competitive 3.6l V6.

busiris

The IIHS Small Overlap Crash is brutal, even lux makes have struggled with it, including Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus.

As someone else suggested, I wonder sometimes if manufacturers design auto safety to meet the test requirements .vs. real world probabilities, which the tests supposedly mimic.

Still, if you view the link below, even with some poor test results/ratings, its hard to argue with how well this car performed, safety-wise...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57358838/mom-kids-rescued-as-bmw-teeters-on-- socal-bridge/

busiris

The market agreed with you. I remember reading how bad the Sebring interior was, plastic everywhere.

ateixeira

One correction: Audi, not BMW, also got a Poor score. My bad.

I edited my post but my mistake was quoted.

Wow, I can't even tell what BMW model that is!

Good scores were for the Acura TL and the Volvo S60, so looks like all the top scoring model are import brand so far, though only 2 classes have been tested.

ateixeira

Chrysler made lots of improvements, dad's 200C definitely has nicer materials than the Sebring convertible I rented a few years ago.

New battery and alternator seemed to have fixed the electrical gremlin.

The other night I did the Navi update for him, WOW that's time consuming! 45 minutes for the software update, and another 90 minutes for the maps.

Kudos, though, because Chrysler gave him the first update for free. They even mailed us 2 DVDs.

The bad news? The ICC was finished in the spring but only half of it is on these maps. He lives one exit after the map ends. Bummer!

ateixeira

http://bcove.me/0qy22zw6

Shows assembly line robots wrapping presents, and Santa in a Camaro drop top.

uplanderguy

I always liked the looks of the Lucerne, and the size. To me, it looked expensive like a 7-series BMW or longer Benz looks expensive.

I always thought I would HAVE to get whatever trim level got you the piece of chrome molding along the bottom of the trunk lid, as the rear-end is just too plain without it!

ateixeira

Do you see the glass half empty, or half full?

http://www.freep.com/article/20121216/BUSINESS01/312160136/1014/rss13

If you account for the credits you get, resale is good.

If you don't, they fall behind the Cruze.

ateixeira

Wow, I was being nice. Read this:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/19/2012-jeep-patriot-review/

They said this about the old one:

There have been a couple rounds of updates to the Patriot to address previous foibles including its former horror chamber-like interior

I took a look at one after their first update, and I remember the front door cars were updated and had padded surfaces for the elbows, but the rears did not. So they kinda went half way. Literally.

Hopefully now they did the rear doors also, so they match.

busiris

Man o man, that's one good-looking Popemobile!

andre1969

I think the Lucerne has some pretty nice proportions, as it's relatively short at 203.2", for its 115.6" wheelbase, so it doesn't have so much overhang. In contrast, my 2000 Park Ave is 206.8" long, on a 113.8" wb. Not a huge difference, to be sure, but I think it helps.

One aspect I don't like about my Park Avenue's proportions is the location of the front axle. I know it has to be like that, because of the FWD layout, but I think it would look better if they could move it forward a few inches, but without changing the overall length of the car. Not a huge issue, but I think cars look a bit more impressive if they have a bit more fender between the front wheel opening and the leading edge of the door.

ateixeira

I think he used to drive a Golf.

bpizzuti

Subies tend to go for sticker, or close to it. But this is the NorthEast, so AWD might be a small factor.

Until the EPA thing happened, Elantras were going for sticker as well, if not more (they were down to single-digit days in inventory for a while).

Focuses seem to go for $1000 off sticker, not much more than that. I see a ton of them around too, despite CR.

bpizzuti

One of our local internet dealer groups, www.fitzmall.com, is showing as having five 2013 Impalas. MSRP ranging from $28,210 to $29,945, but internet priced at $23,330 to $24,883. They're all LT models, so at least they're not bottom of the barrel. And three of them have sunroofs.

Wow, $5k off of MSRP. Must be very cheap and a fantastic deal. I predict new Impalas will be entering Lemko's and Uplanderguy's garages. :shades:

bpizzuti

One correction: Audi, not BMW, also got a Poor score. My bad.

I edited my post but my mistake was quoted.

OT, but I really wish Edmunds had a decent quoting system. Ideally they could switch to vBulletin and then we could all hop on here using Tapatalk. :shades:

robr2

Subies tend to go for sticker, or close to it. But this is the NorthEast, so AWD might be a small factor.

Maybe the BRZ. Here in Boston - smack dab in the middle of Subie country - discounts are rampant on all other Subies.

bpizzuti

Maybe the BRZ. Here in Boston - smack dab in the middle of Subie country - discounts are rampant on all other Subies.

Yes, but since you're in Boston I'm required by NY State law to hate you and not believe anything you say. Nothing personal. :shades:

lemko

"no one ever paid sticker prices, for decades, unless you were a totally uneducated buyer"

That or one just won the lottery and didn't care! :P

lemko

Heck, I would since there is no Panther platform at Ford anymore. I holding off to see what the 2014 Impala is like.

lemko

I'd be tempted except for the 63K miles! I did come across a 2006 Lincoln Town Car with 40K on it for around the same price. Maybe I can get it for even less?

lemko

My wife and I have pretty much the same taste in cars, only she likes her cars slightly smaller. I've often referred to the Lucerne as "my version" of her LaCrosse.

busiris

Wow, $5k off of MSRP. Must be very cheap and a fantastic deal.

Certainly, heavy discounts on models can be a bonanza for a buyer looking for the size car being discounted, and intends to keep the vehicle for enough time to pass that the impact of the discounts don't have much effect on the resale price (or they simply intend to drive the wheels off the car).

I remember soon after the bailouts and everything went south in the car market and sales locked up in some markets, it wasn't unusual to hear stories of folks buying new cars as cheap, if not cheaper, than the same model used.

In that regard, if a buyer fits the profile, I think the current Malibu is an excellent buy.

If I were in the market for a 5-passenger front-wheel drive car, I'd happily drive one off the lot. Frankly, I wish my daughter was interested in such a vehicle, as I've promised her a new car once she finishes her degree and out of school next April. Unfortunately for me and my wallet, she's more interested in a smaller vehicle, most likely a hatch.

OTOH, its unfortunate for the manufacturer/labor when models get heavily discounted. It creates a chain of events that usually leads to reduced production and employee layoffs.

andre1969

I did an Edmund's TMV on that Lucerne and they came up with a private party value of around $11K or so and dealer value of about $12.5K.

I'm sorta tempted to go look at it, but after just having bought the Ram, and the mechanic working on the DeSoto again, I think I'm going to be out of the market for a bit. :sick:

circlew

My 2011 Malibu was somewhere between $3,500 and $4,000 off sticker, IIRC, before my $1,500 in GM card rebate. Not at the end of the model year. And that was no hard-as-nails negotiation. Can you do that with a Kia? I ask because I don't know.

There must be SOMETHING the Optima has that the 'Bu doesn't if incentives/out-the-door price are the sales driver:

November 2012 Malibu sales: 10,227
November 2012 Optima Sales: 12,715

Otherwise, why are the Chevy's sales so low? I ask because I really don't know.

Regards,
OW

xrunner2

Buick Verano.

$30K for the model he was looking at. It had interior trim pieces that were damaged and not put together correctly, gaps in the bumpers and panels that were uneven (touching in some places), loose door handles, and most of all, the paint on the bumpers was a completely different color than the body.

There is still a good part of our population that is loyal to American brands or a specific American brand and will not consider brands of other nations (Japan, Europe). Won't even go into those other showrooms to look, compare, take for a test drive. Their closed minds perhaps denies them from a better vehicle in terms of quality, reliability, fit and finish, handling, engine, trans, interior, resale value, etc. They will never know.

fezo

and the mechanic working on the DeSoto again,

Again? Or still? :sick:

uplanderguy

There is still a good part of our population that is loyal to American brands or a specific American brand and will not consider brands of other nations (Japan, Europe). Won't even go into those other showrooms to look, compare, take for a test drive. Their closed minds perhaps denies them from a better vehicle in terms of quality, reliability, fit and finish, handling, engine, trans, interior, resale value, etc. They will never know.

Not being a wise guy, but that's my sentiment about so many guys like you, too. For instance, people saying what a POS a vehicle is, then grudgingly admitting they have never even sat in one, yet ridden or driven in one. That is sad to me, particularly when it could positively affect more American workers if they did consider the American brand.

uplanderguy

For one thing, I sincerely believe people 'jump on the bandwagon', and secondly, my example was about the previous Malibu, not the current one. If sales equalled quality, "Disco Duck" must have been the best record of that year.

Unlike the Camaro, which was a good seller out of the box, I believe the current Malibu has had a lousy launch. I'm reminded of the first Cavalier and Celebrity models, both of which had lousy launches but in their second and third years, with more powerful engines in the Cavalier and lowering of prices, became very popular later. Obviously, if the Malibu can recover remains to be seen, however.

Some of it is the earlier poster's comments, but mirror-image...I'm sure that more Malibu buyers would have considered the Kia than vice-versa, and that is unfortunate.

stever

"Disco Duck" must have been the best record of that year.

Hey now, Rick Dees was my morning DJ when I lived in Memphis, before he bugged out for LA.

Let's not make it personal. :P

stever

"Using the bailouts as a tool to overhaul poorly run, uncompetitive private companies -- as the Obama administration did by marching GM and Chrysler through bankruptcy restructurings -- was very controversial, and remains so.

It was also remarkably successful, as measured strictly by the stunning financial recoveries of the two automakers.

GM had lost $82 billion in 3 1/2 years before its 2009 bankruptcy; it's now minting $2 billion per quarter in profits, nearly all in North America."

What's auto bailout verdict? Time will tell (Detroit Free Press)

tlong

Mark my words, for this edition of the Malibu it has failed miserably. GM will have to fully redo the car before it has a chance to be successful.

tlong

That sounds like something a Detroit newspaper would say. It's not that hard to be successful when your Big Daddy is bailing you out. Funny how they don't mention the massive financial loss that the US taxpayers are taking on this little investment.

uplanderguy

I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating....I've been accused of being a GM employee (laughable), but it's almost as if some regular posters here are employees of the competition! I've never seen so many Americans actually doing whatever they can here to help ensure failure at, or at least perpetuate negative stereotypes of, GM. That is completely mystifying to me....as is posting routinely to a GM forum when not one, simple, positive thing is posted by these people. That says a lot about them as people, sadly. I dislike Toyota, but I don't feel compelled to post regularly, for months or years on end, only negative stuff there. I don't post there at all.

Not everything I post about GM here is positive, but I'm able to weigh goods (yes, there are 'goods') with the negatives. Others here only rave about their companies, say nothing bad about them, only bad about GM, and nothing good about GM. Come on. It's really ridiculous.

Cue up the regular about how no UAW person will touch a car of his since his '95 bottom-end Mopar was bad (he compares quality of a Neon to an Audi). Cue up the pre-bankruptcy warranty misinformation. Cue up how the one guy says he saw a Caddy on fire, when the entire recall was under 4K cars and the pic he routinely posts is not the car he saw (he must be Forrest Gump!). Cue up misinfiormation about rebates on GM cars that didn't exist. Cue up the guy who will say "I saw ten Chevrolets along the side of the road today", as if he's writing them down as he sees them. Ad infinitum. I call bs on all of 'em.

uplanderguy

Second Hyundai Veloster recall this week:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2012-hyundai-veloster-recalled-for-parking-brake- - -problem.html

Since this is a GM forum, I will say flatly that GM's recall numbers have been quite small for a good while in comparison with the numerous recalls of its varied competition of late...even taking the Colorado/Canyon recall into consideration.

I do have to chuckle--GM or Ford recalls...terrible news but not unexpected! Anybody else's recalls? "Ah, they all get recalled. I don't consider it a big deal".

stever

That sounds like something a Detroit newspaper would say.

I never read the Detroit papers before moving to MI, but it is a bit like reading Al Jazeera; there's often a bit of a disconnect, at least with one's own world view. :shades:

Uplander, about your "Cue up the regular about how no UAW person will touch a car of his since his '95 bottom-end Mopar was bad", that's the way the world works. I like VWs since I had several reliable Bugs in the early 70s (reliable compared to the competition, especially two lousy Volvos that about ruined me on the brand to this day). My CJ-5 was mostly good, my Tercel was great and my Datsuns were good and bad (the bad one was a beater when I got it though).

When you only buy a car every 5 or 10 years, your perceptions of how a brand is get hardened. And people don't mind telling the world that either.

And it only takes one ride to sour you on a brand (if I had gone from a Bug to a Rabbit, I'd likely hate VW with a passion).

'95 is pretty recent history for a lot of us. Best way for GM to beat those kinds of perceptions is going to largely be word of mouth I think.

andre1969

Again? Or still?

A little bit of both. It's been in the shop since December of 2009. He spent about a year pulling it all apart, but then let it sit ad moved on to other projects. He'd had a few other cars that were in there before my DeSoto, including a 1959 Imperial that he stopped working on when the owner ran into money problems. Well, apparently the guy got his cash flowing again, because my car got put on hold so he could finish up that Imperial.

But, about a month ago, he finally started up again. And now MY cash is flowing...but in a scary direction! :surprise: Anyway, he says he's going to have it road-ready by sometime in the spring of 2013. Not holding my breath, though!

uplanderguy

Since I first bought an old car in 1988, I find that locating a guy who even wants to work on it has gotten harder and harder. I live in a suburban area and the shops are all 'git her in, git her out'. It's personally frustrating to me that I never learned to do my own service work, and now I really don't have the space, either. When I do find a guy who supposedly works on old cars (as told me by someone else), I generally find they're very lackadaisical about returning phone calls, which drives me nuts...I won't beg someone to work on my car. But the kind of thing you're talking about, Andre...waiting a long time for an old car repair...seems like something I've heard and read about a lot too, but haven't experienced. I have experienced waiting a long time for an appointment for my old car. Where I grew up is a small town surrounded by rural areas. I often see lots of local auto shops around when I go back to visit. I often think I'd probably have an easier time finding someone to work on an old car there than in suburbia where I live now.

BTW...among Mopars, I always liked DeSoto's towering taillights with the round lights going up. Doesn't "Shoe" the comic-strip character, have one?

andre1969

Oh, it's getting harder and harder around here too, to find someone willing to work on an older car. And, the mechanic who has my DeSoto does have a habit of rushing things, although you wouldn't know it considering how long he's had my car. And the Imperial, along with a 1958 Edsel, were in his shop when I first met him back in 2007! But, whenever I've had him work on something more modern, like when my uncle's '97 Silverado needed a new fuel pump, or when it had a coolant leak, or when my 2000 Intrepid did random stalling, he'd tend to rush, call and say it's ready, only to have it go back in the shop soon thereafter.

I think the most embarrassing time was when he worked on my '79 New Yorker, which tended to stall at random, and wouldn't always start. He supposedly fixed it, said it was ready to go. I told him I was thinking about driving it up to the Mopar show in Carlisle, for a change of pace compared to my 5th Ave, and asked him if he'd trust it that far. Oh, he'd trust it to go across the country, he said! Well, it died right around the corner from his shop. He came out, tried to fiddle with it, couldn't get it started, and actually said that he gave up! Then I tried one last time to start it, and almost as if to spite him, it fired right up!

Another shop, right around the corner from me, used to do good work, but then they started getting the rush job mentality. And on top of that, their work started slipping, but naturally, things would break again soon after the warranty was up. So, now I'm going to a place in Gambrills MD, about 10 miles away. It can be a pain with traffic, but they're well worth it. They do good work, and are reasonably priced. I'd gone there in the past and they always did good work, but started going to the guy who has my DeSoto because he was a friend of a friend. Unfortunately, that doesn't always work out.

The day I started going back to the place in Gambrills, I noticed they had a '55 or '56 Pontiac hardtop coupe in their shop, so that gave me a good vibe. And, about a month ago, they had a '70 or so Cutlass 442 convertible in the shop. I don't think they'd tear into an old car quite as deeply as the guy who has my DeSoto would, but at least I'll be able to bring it to them for most of the routine stuff it might need.

They did the brakes, sway bar bushings, and a front axle on my Park Ave about two months ago, fixed a fuel leak and some minor issues on my '79 5th Ave after that, and most recently, replaced the starter, positive battery cable, and did an oil change on my '76 LeMans, and all the jobs seemed reasonably priced.

Oh, and yeah, there's a character in "Shoe" who has a '59 DeSoto. I've also seen some comic strip with a detective dog and rabbit driving around in a 1960. And, I forget the name, but some other comic character who had a 1957. "Ernie" or something like that?

I also remember Fonzie once saying that people who fall off of motorcycles end up becoming DeSoto drivers.

bpizzuti

I'm probably the closest thing to a GM employee on here right now, given that I work for a GM supplier.

That being said it would not surprise me if GM does have some people frequenting forums for the sole purpose of posting messages that are intended to put GM into the best light possible. That's just marketing, and frankly all manufacturers do some variation of it. Some of them place people openly on forums and respond as people officially and actually representing the company. Others pretend to be normal people as they abnormally sing abnormal praises for manufacturers. Those are the ones that generally drive cars built by someone other than their employers, BTW. :shades:

uplanderguy

I have seen some GM employees post on Edmunds, but they've been clearly identified as such. When I was the first person (that I noticed) say anything about the new Malibu's rear legroom on Edmunds, you can bet GM wouldn't be paying me.

On the other hand, I don't believe I've heard a specific negative thing said by anybody else here about a Kia or Hyundai or Subaru product (OK, I have heard things about Toyota, but usually just about how 'vanilla' they are!).

bpizzuti

I hate Hyundai's transmissions, they're slow and they hunt too much. Their engines are torqueless. Hyundai's styling is overwrought, Kia's is very sharp though. The things do seem to hold up, but they're appliances, and I have the same issues with them that I have with Toyota.

Subaru, on the other hand, now that they're finally retiring the 4EAT, can do no wrong for now. :shades: Though I wish they had the assets to develop a DSG to go alongside their CVT transmission.

ateixeira

grudgingly admitting they have never even sat in one, yet ridden or driven in one

I'm with you on this.

Critics often don't know what they're talking about, and I mean that literally.

And it applies in many ways, a lot of Volt and Prius critics haven't driven either car. There's a myth about them being slow, but neither is slow, in fact with electric motors hitting peak torque at idle they feel quicker than they are.

I check out every car I can when it's Auto Show season, and I test drive a bunch of cars every year, even some I know I won't buy. Just drove a Jag XF 2.0T the other day, in fact, to sample the EcoBoost motor in a lux ride.

I was not a fan of the Dustbuster vans (Florida road trip, full week in one) or the Cobalt (body shop rental), but I really like your generation Malibu (sister's company car). I'll probably sample a Cruze Diesel once those are out. Maybe a Sonic SS if they ever build a tuned one.

I've also borrowed my ex-roommate's Silverado for some moves, and it's running strong with 200k plus miles on it. Sure it's outdated, but is it a bad thing that they last forever?

Any how, one interesting thing is you go in with expectations of what a car will be like, and about half the time you end up surprised. That Jag was unsettled and had a poor ride. The stereotype is that Jag has a magic-carpet smooth ride, but it simply didn't.

If people never sample the cars they talk about, they'd be saying the wrong things about 'em.

The EcoBoost's start/stop system is smoother than BMW's, too. Another surprise.