GM News, New Models and Market Share

ateixeira

I work for a GM supplier

Then it's your fault.

ateixeira

I don't believe I've heard a specific negative thing said by anybody else here about a Kia or Hyundai or Subaru product

I've complained about the stick shift in the Optima. Terrible feel. They discontinued it but noone will miss it. The Sportage has a better stick shift by far (still available).

Visibility is another weakness of the Optima, and you couldn't get a backup cam with a stick shift.

Not sure if I shared in a GM thread, it's more on-topic in other threads, like Chronic Car Buyers since I was helping my brother shop for a car.

Ford was selling the old Escape at the time, which we test drove as well, even though they didn't have a stick shift in stock.

He ended up buying a stick shift Forester Premium, the only one he could get with heated seats and a manual trans.

Shopping for stick shifts is like searching for unicorns and often forces you to import brand options (Subaru, BMW, VW have lots). Ford has them in theory, but that dealer didn't have a single stick shift in stock.

ateixeira

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/12/current-generation-chevrolet-impala-get- s-a-new-lease-on-life-will-the-bench-seat-get-one-too/

Good idea - sell the old one to fleets, so the new one is consumer oriented. This will help boost residuals for the new model.

fintail

Better call it the "Classic" or something, or it won't help brand equity. In 2014 the thing will be nearly 10 years old, insane.

Or maybe like some comments suggest - call it a Biscayne or Bel Air maybe. Differentiate it from the new model somehow.

uplanderguy

Interesting, thanks for posting. I predict they will indeed call it the 'Impala Classic'.

Interesting posts beneath the article, too.

ateixeira

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/12/19/gm-might-be-in-the-market- -for-some-jets-soon/

busiris

There is still a good part of our population that is loyal to American brands or a specific American brand and will not consider brands of other nations (Japan, Europe). Won't even go into those other showrooms to look, compare, take for a test drive. Their closed minds perhaps denies them from a better vehicle in terms of quality, reliability, fit and finish, handling, engine, trans, interior, resale value, etc. They will never know.

Not being a wise guy, but that's my sentiment about so many guys like you, too. For instance, people saying what a POS a vehicle is, then grudgingly admitting they have never even sat in one, yet ridden or driven in one. That is sad to me, particularly when it could positively affect more American workers if they did consider the American brand.

I would contend that this is nothing new.

Growing up in GA I remember many buyers that wouldn't consider any other brand than Chevy, Ford, etc. Wouldn't test drive a different make, wouldn't even discuss the option of a different make.

At the time, the only real import option was VW, and I had a friend whose father drove only VW's. So really, the only difference now is that more options are available. You can't consider what isn't available.

What has changed is that folks are much more vocal about their likes/dislikes, but that's got far more to do with the available technology than people's behavior patterns and opinions. The Internet makes commenting on EVERYTHING so much easier. Really, how many posters here would sit down and write out comments, then mail them off to Edmunds to be read months later in some sort of publication?

Again, you can't use what isn't available. It only seems natural that the selective attitudes I remember as a kid would evolve into manufacturer origins. It's just another added layer in the mix.

tlong

I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating....I've been accused of being a GM employee (laughable), but it's almost as if some regular posters here are employees of the competition! I've never seen so many Americans actually doing whatever they can here to help ensure failure at, or at least perpetuate negative stereotypes of, GM.

And I've also said it before, that we really have the same goals but we see different roads to the solution. Trying to pretend that posters aren't patriotic is a red herring and untrue. I (and many others) see that if we want the US to be excellent, we should allow the deadwood to die and be removed. You don't claim you don't love a tree because you prune the dead branches - you do it PRECISELY because you want the tree to remain healthy. Well at the time of BK, GM was one of the dead branches.

As far as negative sterotypes, there was nothing in my post that wasn't fact-based. It's not a negative stereotype that the federal government, and thus, us the taxpayers, are losing $billions on this deal.

Others here only rave about their companies, say nothing bad about them, only bad about GM, and nothing good about GM.

Well, I've even seen OW post positive GM news, and I certainly have talked about how nice the Cruze looks and it's nice interior, as an example. I don't recall any posters being entirely one-sided. Perhaps selective amnesia would cause that conclusion.

busiris

I'm sure that more Malibu buyers would have considered the Kia than vice-versa, and that is unfortunate.

I agree. From a purely buying perspective, it makes no sense to limit one's choices artificially or to attach preconditions to a product, such as where its made, union or non-union labor, etc. (excepting things like labor or environmental abuses, and the like).

Unless I've had recent, multiple bad experiences with a manufacturer's product, it gets included in the possible buying analysis. It's the best, most reliable way to get the most for your $$$.

tlong

Shopping for stick shifts is like searching for unicorns and often forces you to import brand options (Subaru, BMW, VW have lots). Ford has them in theory, but that dealer didn't have a single stick shift in stock.

People don't like stick shifts because then they can't play with their phones. Perhaps if they outlawed automatic transmissions, drivers would be safer and would pay more attention to their driving. :surprise:

busiris

Critics often don't know what they're talking about, and I mean that literally.

Agreed. SNL did a skit a few weeks back where 3 industry "analysts/critics" had been hammering the new iPhone and were placed face-to-face on a TV talk show with 3 of the manufacturing plant's workers. Amazing how their tunes changed when they were not able to hide behind a wall. I think it was the show Christina Applegate hosted.

Pretty funny stuff...

uplanderguy

Well tlong, we agree on one thing: There is a lot of selective amnesia on this board.

I guess what I miss seeing on this board is the kind of comments like I've made about my GM products and others:

1) I don't like the cut of the rear door on my Cobalt (styling)
2) I think the interior of the new Malibu is nicer than my current one.
3) I don't like the reduction in legroom in the rear of the new Malibu.
3) I don't like the Camaro, but it has sold well.
4) I can't believe they've sold that many Colorados and Canyons in that time period.

Rarely if ever anything like that by a poster about their favorite car company's products--and the 'this is a GM forum' is a cop-out because other makes are constantly discussed here.

And if you can say, 'well, OW has made positive comments about GM', I'd sincerely ask you to read his last, say, twenty-five posts and get back to me on the balance there.

tlong

Rarely if ever anything like that by a poster about their favorite car company's products--and the 'this is a GM forum' is a cop-out because other makes are constantly discussed here.

Uplander, thanks for your response.

I don't really see that as a cop-out, as it IS a GM forum. Another item might be that many people DON'T have a favorite company. I have companies I tend to like in some way (Honda, Audi, Mazda), and companies I don't really care for (Toyota), but I don't have a "favorite" brand -- I'm willing to criticize all of them, including ones I'm partial to. I suspect that's true for a lot of other posters as well. Of course we're going to be more critical and focused on GM - that's why we are in the GM forum. If I wanted to criticize the new Camry, I'd go to the Toyota forum if I wanted to go into a lot of details.

And if you can say, 'well, OW has made positive comments about GM', I'd sincerely ask you to read his last, say, twenty-five posts and get back to me on the balance there.

Well, I'm not going hunting for those. I didn't say it would be easy to find, lol. :P

andres3

My thoughts are that anyone should expect a modern TV to go several years without failure. If i really think that particular TV is going to have a short, trouble free life, I'm going to purchase a different make and model. Same goes for automobiles.

I'm the same way, if the TV is going to fail in the first 3 years, I don't want the TV, so I'll tell the salesman do they want to lose a sale over the warranty ? :P

Also, in 3 years the TV will be outdated and under-performing probably in comparison to the latest and greatest.

Never understood why people get suckered into overpaying for extended warranties on things that don't retain their value well.

As to cars, yes, if I expect I'll be needing or using the warranty, I do NOT want that vehicle. I expect my cars to not require use of the warranty, but in the off/rare chance that they do, I'd like to be able to count on the company honoring that warranty (not worry about it being extinct absent bailouts). A lifetime warranty is no better than a 1 year warranty unless the company backing the lifetime warranty is around longer than a year.

People that have owned Honda's or Toyotas, I suspect, like my family and I, would rank a warranty as just about worthless.

Let's put it this way, if Honda offered me $250 to forgo the warranty, I'd take the deal. Audi would probably have to offer me $750 :P Dodge would have to offer the full purchase price back! And I'm not kidding on that one.

busiris

I guess if the Mayans had gotten it right, warranties wouldn't be a problem for anyone anymore...

andres3

I really wouldn't worry much about him picking the occasional "dog"

Even if that dog was perfectly and easily predictable? Even if 95% of the population put the odds at 100:1 that the company would be a dog as in the case of GM?

I don't think anyone in their right mind thought that Gov't motors was going to make the gov't money. Unless you start throwing hypothetical doomsday scenarios about as the alternative from inaction. The problem with that is it's all hot air.

If you start saying things could have been worse without the bailouts, I'll start saying things could have been better. I'll point out opportunity costs lost, even if GM were to make the gov't whole.

andres3

Shouldn't we wait until midnight to discount the Mayans?

xrunner2

Not being a wise guy, but that's my sentiment about so many guys like you, too. For instance, people saying what a POS a vehicle is, then grudgingly admitting they have never even sat in one, yet ridden or driven in one.

Owned BOTH American and foreign brands at the SAME TIME continuously over 26 years. American, German and Japanese.

I have friends and relatives that are staunch "American" brand only buyers. They never have considered a foreign brand and say they do not want to. Is that having an open mind?

That is sad to me, particularly when it could positively affect more American workers if they did consider the American brand.

There are a number of American branded cars NOT BUILT in the U.S. but in Mexico and Canada. Conversely, there are a number of foreign branded cars built in the U.S.

Logically, buying decisions should be based on the attributes - quality, reliability, value, etc. Not just ongoing BLIND loyalty to a country or a particular brand. Smart buyers look at and evaluate offerings from various manufacturers of the type of vehicle of interest every time they are ready to buy a new vehicle. Then, make a decision.

Fortunately for American "only"car buyers in the late 90's and later, there were sufficient quantity of people who started to base car buying decisions on quality/reliability/value back in 1980's and bought foreign. This FORCED American branded manufacturers to finally improve the engineering/quality/reliability of their vehicles to try and stay competitive.

andres3

With a product glut like that, it's a safe bet (and I mean LV odds here) that its not going to be long before GM starts ratcheting up the incentives on the Malibu.

Or maybe Obama will overpay for 1,000 Malibu's for some gov't agency to make up for GM overpaying for Govt' motors stock. Scratching each others backs, if you will.

andres3

In events such as this, I think opinions get set pretty quickly, and aren't subject to much re-evaluation over the course of a lifetime.

I'm not so sure about that. I was and still am vehemently against the bailouts, just the same as I'm against bank robberies.

Now if the bank robber gets away with 10 million, or 10,000, it doesn't matter much to me. Same as if GM makes a 1000% profit, or 50% loss.

However, if the Gov't did make money off of GM, I would have to re-evaluate my opinion and view of GM, as that would have been extremely shocking. More shocking even, than if my Honda ended up being as costly to maintain and keep running as my Dodge had been.

busiris

However, if the Gov't did make money off of GM, I would have to re-evaluate my opinion and view of GM, as that would have been extremely shocking.

I dunno. I think AIG made a profit for the government, but I wonder how many folks would think bailing them out another time would be a good idea.

Certainly, returning a profit would make the GM bailout a lot more palatable for most folks, regardless how much they were against it originally.

busiris

Even if that dog was perfectly and easily predictable? Even if 95% of the population put the odds at 100:1 that the company would be a dog as in the case of GM?

Hey, I'm not the guy to defend the GM bailout, but I do subscribe to the "it ain't over till its over" philosophy, even if I do think it will be a loss for the government in the end. As I said before, I'm going with Berri's methodology...

I've found that the occasional long-shot investment can give a nice return. The key is to not put too much money on the gamble. Lost of folks buy, and make good money, on junk bonds.

I think back to when Microsoft basically saved Apple with an investment. I wonder how many then thought Apple would be the success it is today? Certainly, the others that bought then and held stock over the years did pretty well for themselves.

http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2009/08/dayintech_0806/

Still, don't translate those comments into a support for bailouts...

busiris

Hmmm...

I thought the end of times was on the 20th.

Since I wasn't a believer, I really didn't pay too much attention.

Either way, I'm still betting it's a bust.

lemko

Wasn't there also a character on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" who drove a DeSoto?

andres3

You need to get into the real world!

While the typical person doesn't even think twice about spending an hours wages on Disco Duck, or shop comparisons of it and save 33% on Amazon, they will most certainly take more time, research, and effort in consideration of something that costs 1/2 a year's salary!

Comparing high selling "cheap" items to cars is a terrible analogy at best.

I don't like domestic vehicles, but if GM priced their cars right (cheap) I'd consider them. For instance, I'd buy a top of the line Corvette if it was 20K.

I know I know, some of you may say that's ridiculous, but my point is the market speaks!

andres3

Cue up the regular about how no UAW person will touch a car of his since his '95 bottom-end Mopar was bad (he compares quality of a Neon to an Audi).

Bottom-end? I got the "sport" line trim, the highest trim line of 3! :P

Anyways, I thought according to Big 3 fan boys they routinely say the Germans are even worse than the Big 3 when it comes to reliability.

Sure the Audi has a much nicer interior, looks better, is quieter, handles better, has way more horsepower, and gets equivalent fuel mileage despite nearly 1,000 extra pounds of safety enhancements, but if I equalize all of that, shouldn't I be able to compare it to a car costing half as much? I mean... I'm discounting all those advantages of the Audi.... and still... it's night and day.

I dislike Toyota, but I don't feel compelled to post regularly, for months or years on end, only negative stuff there. I don't post there at all.

For what it's worth, you've never owned a Toyota, and I've at least owned a Mopar product.

andres3

Unless I've had recent, multiple bad experiences with a manufacturer's product, it gets included in the possible buying analysis.

My view is that if you consider a manufacturer that has burned you in the past, you are rewarding bad behavior, and prolonging the inevitable.

andres3

Audi has not done a good enough job of trimming the weight off their new car offerings.

Honda has not done a good job period. (Except for maybe the new Accord).

Toyota needs a new MR2 and Supra turbo badly!

VW needs to learn more from Audi.

Subaru and Nissan both need a DSG type transmission badly. Some people (like me) have hated every CVT they've encountered.

bpizzuti

Wasn't there also a character on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" who drove a DeSoto?

Don't recall a DeSoto but there was a Citroen DS, a BMW convertible, a Jeep Cherokee, a Chevy Bel Air, and whatever that black thing was Spike drove originally.

Not that I watch the show that often. :shades:

berri

I don't really know how GM will ultimately turn out, but remember when Japanese firms like Toyota and Honda first came over here their automobile product wasn't all that good. Underpowered, somewhat crude and uncomfortable rust buckets. Japan improved on those deficiencies, but it was a rather long time before the market recognized it and moved over in any quantity (also maybe helped some by D3 and UAW atrocities back then). Some of this new D3 stuff is really decent (not all of it, but not all of the imports are either). But I can't blame people for being leery, no different than what happened with Japan (or Audi for that matter). Personally, I'm not writing GM off yet and actually have a bit more concern about Ford with all of their recent product launch debacles and high financial leverage - although I'm pretty confident they will turn it around too unless we hit another severe recession in the near future. Fortunate thing for Detroit is they still reign in big, profitable trucks as a cash cow to help them turn around the rest of their product line over the next 5 years or so. Japan really hasn't been able to crack that lucrative nut very well yet. No guarantees, but if D3 turns the car and crossover product around while retaining leadership in trucks, I can foresee a possibility before the decade is out where the transplants become the underdog. The total net wage and benefit packages aren't that different between some of the plants now and Detroit might actually gain a small advantage as the old UAW contract members retire off. The domestic management chain is shorter. Also, Detroit and the transplants are using a lot of the same vendors these days and systems contracting relies more heavily on vendors than the old way of doing things. It may get interesting!

busiris

For instance, I'd buy a top of the line Corvette if it was 20K.

I know I know, some of you may say that's ridiculous, but my point is the market speaks!

No, I don't think buying a Corvette is a ridiculous idea....

Not at all...

bpizzuti

No, I don't think buying a Corvette is a ridiculous idea....

I do, at least in the US. Then again, I think that's why some people actually buy it. An ostentatious statement of ridiculousness that's not quite as expensive as other ostentatious statements of ridiculousness. :shades:

uplanderguy

I dislike bright yellow and bright red Corvettes with shiny wheels, because to me, they're stereotypical. But that's me. I would hope to buy a new, lower-end, subdued color/wheel Corvette coupe at some time and enjoy the hell out of it.

I have stereotypical thoughts of Subaru drivers, too, BTW.

At very least, owning a Corvette to me shows the owner likes the history of the nameplate and the fact that there is nothing else available like it from an American company, or even built in America for that matter. Spending twice as much on a similar car from a foreign manufacturer--now to me, that's ostentatious, and for what?

But as we all know, anybody can buy whatever they want with their own money, and that's OK.

circlew

I've never seen so many Americans actually doing whatever they can here to help ensure failure at, or at least perpetuate negative stereotypes of, GM.

The Treasury’s presence in G.M. disturbed investors and prompted some consumers to avoid its products in an increasingly competitive United States auto market. Independence, however, will leave the company with no excuse as it battles domestic and foreign rivals, many of whom did not turn to the government for a lifeline.

I can't believe people like that would be disturbed by the Government bailout. :confuse:

As of the end of November, G.M.’s market share had slipped below 18 percent this year, and it was struggling with hefty inventories of some major models like the Silverado pickup and the Malibu midsize sedan.

I can't believe the same things are going on at GM! :confuse:

And while General Motors has benefited from shedding debt and four brands in bankruptcy, it has considerable work ahead to rebuild a product lineup that withered during its financial crisis. For one, its hometown rival, Ford Motor, earns more money in North America despite selling fewer vehicles.

“There’s no doubt that General Motors is in a better position now than it was four or five years ago,” said Michelle Krebs, an analyst with the car research site Edmunds.com. “The key is to watch and see if the company falls back into old habits.”

G.M. executives say that the company has changed its ways.

Treasury to Sell G.M. Stake Within 15 Months

Time will tell. In the meantime, people like UL need to understand criticism is GOOD for GM...better than a bailout. It's stark reality!

On the Positive Side: When Akerson leaves, Mary Barra would be a welcomed change and should give GM a much needed leader that can make GM great once again, afaic.

Regards,
OW

bpizzuti

I have stereotypical thoughts of Subaru drivers, too, BTW.

So do I. I tend to prefer the turbocharged ones myself. I'll put a Rex up against a 'Vette any day.

At very least, owning a Corvette to me shows the owner likes the history of the nameplate and the fact that there is nothing else available like it from an American company, or even built in America for that matter. Spending twice as much on a similar car from a foreign manufacturer--now to me, that's ostentatious, and for what?

Umm, I think you forgot about the various high-end Mustangs. There's also the Viper, but that's in a somewhat higher price class.

busiris

I dislike bright yellow and bright red Corvettes with shiny wheels, because to me, they're stereotypical.

I had a 96 Corvette with the removable top, white with saddle brown interior, manual.

Nothing fancy, and it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

Overall, I enjoyed the car, but it was a pain to enter/exit. The next generation was much better in that regard, IMO.

imidazol97

This would make a perfect Vette for me. If I'm remembering the color, it's not a bright yellow, just enough color to be yellow.

I posted this picture of that car because of the emblem on the side: what
does it mean?

1600x1200 link or click on picture

uplanderguy

Mustang=Camaro, not Corvette. The Corvette body isn't available in six-cylinder form for secretaries, as the Mustang and Camaro are.

I did in fact forget the Viper, although it obviously doesn't have the heritage the Corvette does.

uplanderguy

Imidazo, that color is called 'Butternut Yellow' and that's a '66.

That emblem was on every Corvette that year, short of 427's which had a larger emblem and a 'stinger' hood. That car could be a basic 327--not that there's anything wrong at all with that.

I love those knockoff wheels on Corvette.

At a local cruise I attend, there's a silver '67 Corvette displayed by the original owner, who still lives at the same address on his new-car order paperwork he displays (the dealer, Marhofer Chevrolet in Stow, OH, is still there, but only after being told for three months they were going to be forced to close--don't get me going there). The 'Vette owner told me once, "I was mad when the car came in, that it didn't have the 'handle' over the glovebox door like earlier Sting Rays. Someone must have found a way to save a buck a car or something".

It even happened back then!

I know it's low-tech (still has kingpins up front like a Studebaker), but my favorite 'Vette is a '62 with hardtop, in Fawn Beige or Honduras Maroon. 327 with Powerglide? I'd be just fine with that!

bpizzuti

Mustang=Camaro, not Corvette. The Corvette body isn't available in six-cylinder form for secretaries, as the Mustang and Camaro are.

So the Boss 302, the Shelby GT500, and the GT Premium don't compete with the Corvette because the Mustang comes in a V6 trim and the 'Vette doesn't? They seem to be fairly comparable as far as power goes, as well as being utterly useless for more than 2 people.

People DO cross-shop them, Ford uses the higher trim Mustangs to compete with the "Vette while requiring a comparatively minimal additional investment. Which is pretty smart.

Frankly some Mustang fans think the Boss 302 and Shelby GT500 would whip any Corvette on any track on any day. Given how mean the Shelby is, they might be right on that count. It would certainly be a sight I'd pay to see.

uplanderguy

And thus where does the Camaro enter your analysis of market slotting, Mustang, and Corvette?

Chevy has the Camaro and the Corvette.

Ford has the Mustang.

Therein lies the difference.

imidazol97

>that color is called 'Butternut Yellow' and that's a '66.

Is that the same color as Andre1969's Pontiac convertible?

I don't recall that emblem on Corvettes. I'd be happy with a 327. Those were good engines. I just like the early Vettes over the large bustle rear end more recent models.

uplanderguy

I think Andre's Catalina is 'Capri Cream'...although they might be a Chevy name; I'm drawing a blank now. It's more of a white than a pale yellow. Chevy offered Butternut Yellow in '67 too BTW.

bpizzuti

And thus where does the Camaro enter your analysis of market slotting, Mustang, and Corvette?

As I mentioned, the lower trim Mustangs compete with the Camaro

uplanderguy

But the "upper" Mustangs don't compete with the ZL-1?

bpizzuti

But the "upper" Mustangs don't compete with the ZL-1?

Ironically the ZL-1 competes with the Corvette to some degree, except for how heavy the thing is. So yeah, all three of them compete in that particular slot, and there's probably a Challenger that hits the $50k price point too (assuming one still pays attention to the Challenger).

busiris

In today's market, I'd guess lots of potential buyers in the performance car segment cross-shop Mustangs, Corvettes, Camaros, Challengers, BMW M cars... And on the upper end, Vipers, Audi R8s, Nissan GTRs, etc.

Back when I was a teenager, it wasn't unusual for a Chevelle SS owner to migrate to a Corvette. But, I knew some folks that would only consider a Corvette at the time, too. It was rare to see anyone back then move from one brand performance vehicles to a different brand. Mopar owners stayed within Mopar, Ford owners did the same, along with GM owners.

To be honest, I haven't been shopping in that kind of market for so long that I really don't have any idea of how people shop that segment today. It would be interesting to see survey results on that subject.

andres3

Being as the last Camaro I saw on a track weekend blew its automatic transmission, I don't think it competes with anything for serious enthusiasts.

A Smart 4 Two would have won a race with it given the tortoise and the hare principal.

uplanderguy

Haven't been reading much on the ZL-1, have you?

You're entitled to your opinion...I never shopped for a Camaro even when I was a bachelor--but to say you doubt a serious enthusiast would shop a Camaro, well...that's a real knee-slapper.

busiris

I may be showing my ignorance here, but do serious enthusiasts drive automatics?

Maybe DCT's and such...