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Comments
I agree.
I've been comparing Cruze, Malibu, Accord, Corolla, Camry online. I see $500 customer rebate for the Cruze. Similar for the Verano.
Corolla (with lower gas mileage than Cruze 1.4T and equal Verano 2.5 engine) has $1000, 750, 500 in a cluster of varied rebates AND a $750 or 500 incentive to the dealer, which they can share or not share with the buyer. Looks to me like toyota is pushing lots of cash on the hood. Haven't yet checked the camry prices, but don't particular like it's strange taillights. If I wanted strange, I'd look at Sonata.
Looks to me like GM is not putting much rebate out there, contrary to what
somea few on this discussion try to portray. I was hoping I might find a good deal on a vehicle for a replacement for one of my chariots.2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, I went through GM's small to midsized cars, and then I looked at Ford's midsized car similar to Malibu (Fusion), and then I looked at the top two import brands' small to midsizers which compete with Malibu. I didn't look to cherry pick brands worse than GM, as I sort of figured that GM would want to compare to the main competition rather than to compare to who might be *even worse*. Are you trying to prove they are good, or just not the worst? :confuse:
The Cruze has improved to 'average' for 2012...this is all CR.
Well I have the latest buying report, one month old, and I didn't see that listed. Perhaps you can point me to the page that I missed.
I personally agree with you on the styling of the new Fusion.
Still, we started by talking Malibu's declining sales. I mentioned that one reason could be poor reputation, which you refuted. My point was that Malibu in general, and Chevy in particular, don't have a good reputation among a lot of buyers, for solid reasons, and I shared data to support that conclusion. I pointed out why the reputation continues to be poor among some buyers, with even recent data. Even JD Power says that reliablity an extremely important consideration in buying decisions, and Chevy's mainstream auto reliablities are not very good vs. their main competition.
Consumer Reports does differentiate those.
Do you even have a copy of the data or are you making this up?
"New 2013 Focus, up to 25% off MSRP!"
"New 2013 Fusion, up to 20% off MSRP!"
That's a weird way to advertise, instead of "$3,000 Rebate" or the like, unless it varies on which trim level, I don't know.
Yes it does...on the "A" pillars and on the "C" pillars, right behind the rear doors.
I'm discussing the information YOU posted from J.D. Power. CR doesn't post their information online without paying for it.
Perhaps you can show me the 4 vs. V6 data I missed from YOUR link.
Don't know if you saw it or not, since you made no mention of it, but the Power info I posted was for 2009 cars in 2012, not new 2012 models like you said it was.
The latest Annual Buying Issue from Dec 2012 includes used car reliablity and they break out the v6 vs 4cyl Malibus, as I indicated.
But back to the original post...tlong's posting of Powers does not have any breakdown, and that specifically was what I was posting in regards to. CR, I have other issues with as have been well-documented here previously.
I think you're pretending that I didn't say 'JDP' in that post as well, and that is the only info you provided a link to.
Please confirm that my original JDP data posted here was for 2009 models, not new 2012 models as you had erroneously posted, and that Subaru, Nissan, Kia, M-B, BMW, Mazda, Infiniti, and VW owners show more problems than Chevrolets of that same model year according to that data, anyway.
I'm calling BS....again.
"New 2013 Focus, up to 25% off MSRP!"
"New 2013 Fusion, up to 20% off MSRP!"
Yes, I see crap like that in both newspaper, radio and TV ads. Some go up to 5 digit discounts, such as "up to $15,000 off on SELECT models". I've never gone by one of these dealerships that advertise like this to investigate, but I'd like to one day just to see THE vehicle with the huge discount.
From my perspective, these ads must be aimed solely at the "uninformed". Seems that most of the dealerships that do it around here change hands an awful lot...
Here's one...
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=12304&endYear=2- - - 014&modelCode1=CHECAPS&showcaseOwnerId=0&startYear=1981&makeCode1=CHEV&listingTy- - - pe=new&listingTypes=new&searchRadius=100&mmt=%5BCHEV%5BCHECAPS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D- - - &listingId=328573076&listingIndex=2&Log=0
Denooyer Chevrolet, Albany NY.
New 2012 Chevrolet Captiva Sport 2WD LS
You referred to BOTH JDP and CR in your post, then said "they" didn't differentiate between 4 and 6 cyl. So you were ambiguous with your use of "they" (it wasn't clear which of the companies, or both, "they" referred to) and I pointed out that CR DID differentiate those engines. And I also agreed that JDP did not. Yet you still did try to say that didn't do that in a nearly one year old April issue of which you had a recollection from a newsstand - a recollection that another poster has corrected.
Please confirm that my original JDP data posted here was for 2009 models, not new 2012 models as you had erroneously posted..
I did not post that it was for 2012 models, but I did erroneously say it was for initial quality, which was in the headline of your posted article. Deeper in the article it became clear that the article was actually about 3 year old dependability.
"...and that Subaru, Nissan, Kia, M-B, BMW, Mazda, Infiniti, and VW owners show more problems than Chevrolets of that same model year according to that data, anyway."
I'll take you word on that - but the start of the entire thread was about Chevy having a poor reputation in some consumer's minds, which of course is why they aren't as competitive against the top sellers against the Malibu, the car we were discussing in particular. That's why I compared to Ford, Toyota, and Honda data as those are the most competitive vehicles and top sellers vs. the Malibu.
I think my original point still stands. Malibu sales are likely negatively impacted by lower brand reputation of Chevy.
In other GM news, my wife noted tonight that she liked the looks of the Spark. This from the woman who didn't care for the Fit at all.
I'm a bit surprised at how many they've sold, as I honestly don't remember seeing even one here in SoCal. They must be selling them, unless they're largely fleet or only being sold in the midwest. I think I'd notice one if it was around.
I've even seen some Volts although they're not very common.
Something like two Sparks. Zero Veloster Turbos.
All I have to go on is that the listing says its a new vehicle with 2 miles.
What kind of certification is needed on a vehicle with only 2 miles, I wonder...
I've only noticed one down in Toledo back in November. The valet guy hated it (he was a bit tall).
Personally I think they should sell it more widely. It does look better than the Equinox. Looks more compact too, the Equinox is on the big side for a "Compact" SUV.
It is a wonderful thing to be able to say you're wrong when you are. I wish more here would do that.
tlong, can you kindly confirm that the CR Buyer's Guide has a separate chart for reliability of V6 Malibu, than the 4 cyl. Malibu. It should, since it's just a repeat of the April issue. I haven't seen that confirmed yet. Thank you in advance...really.
I don't know if the general public will accept the differentiation as enough of a difference between a fleet vehicle and an individual vehicle, but the idea isn't new to GM. How many cars has GM marketed over the years that were 99% the same, just with a different grill, tail lights and emblem?
It might be a great (and inexpensive) way to keep the stigma of fleet sales from affecting the "general population" of vehicles. Or, maybe not...
Given that the Captiva is really a Saturn Vue, the Vue would probably be being dragged down. Except it's probably not physically possible to drag it down further.
I do see some logic for something that will only ever be fleet, a nameplate or even a brand. Except not many outside of the Crown Vic have been what you might call "successful." Remember Checker? London Cab is in trouble too.
On the other hand, rather than shutting down Saturn, they could have made Saturn the "Fleet Division." I think that would have been worthwhile.
Both get a lot of black dots from 2009 and older, which tells me right off the bat GM is still building cars to fall completely apart after the 3 year bumper to bumper warranty expires.
If they hadn't shut down Saturn, they'd have to mollify the dealers somehow - I wonder how many would have lasted just doing fleet sales? GM still wound up with a fleet vehicle and all they mostly did was change the badging and drop some engine choices that the Vue had.
Yes, the 4 and 6 cyls are listed separately. That's the publication I meant when I said Dec 2012, since it comes out in place of the normal magazine every Dec.
The Camaro ZL1.
Man, they can't give those things away.
There is no Malibu V6 chart, but I'll concede that is probably because there is no longer a new V6 Malibu to buy.
As usual (and IMHO only), the overall charts are all over the place. Black one year, red the next, for years I know place of manufacture and major componentry didn't change. Late-model Suburban, worse than average. Late-model Tahoe, better than average. We can argue it all day (and I won't), but I can't believe there's that much componentry, or even body, differences between the two to account for a two-notch difference.
As Andre smartly pointed out once, and I agree...the variations from year-to-year aren't necessarily the difference in that car from year-to-year, but compared to all cars in a given model year. I don't think it's necessarily promoted much as that, but that seems very logical.
Arguing CR is like arguing about the Bengals, or politics. Enjoy the read and put in some common sense into the reading and parsing of the information.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What's hilarious is that my old 03 GM has calipers on the rear where the piston screws in and out, probably just like his beloved Accura's rear brakes. The expert was someone associated with Germaine Acura or Honda store in Columbus. The show was mostly oriented around doing commercials for the Honda/Acura store compared to the typical car repair call in radio show in the area.
What's worse, is he showed his ignorance about GM vehicles. He was working off a stereotype of ignorance. Perceptions change slowly, but is continued to be in the dark ages by comments such as his. The perception of Hondas in the 90s by a car mechanic doing a radio show here was that their engines were BIC engines. Throw them away, don't try to do major rebuild repair after they have been used a while. But the car public was much more forgiving over the engine problems with worn cylinders Honda has. Now it's VCM causing oil use due to damage in one cylinder, or brake wear, or transmissions not engineered properly in Hondas for the last 15 years.
Would you buy a CVT tranny in your new Honda Accord? That's all they offer in what I saw looking at their models recently. If Honda were treated to the same stereotypical ridicule of their shortcomings from the past by people now, their sales of the continuous tranmission would be reason not buy. But instead Honda is given a relative "pass" by most as the perfect car company selling perfect cars of reliability such that only the one background lightbulb in a radio goes out in the first 8 years of ownership. Ridiculous. :sick:
Same for toyota. :sick:
Some here actually have an ability to compartmentalize the past and the present and discuss what's good for GM and market share (on topic). Or we can live in the world of the Honda folks running a call in show in a major metro area who still live in the ridicule of GM world sounding like a comedian doing a standup with old stereotypes like Chris Pebble or whatever his name is
GM has several vehicles I'm willing to consider. I need to sit again in the rear of a Malibu. Since the legroom rating is larger compared to others and it's the visual appearance in the rear that may be the problem, I want to see how long the rear cushion is. That may leave the open space appearing short, but still leave adequate legroom for most average height folks because the cushion has not been foreshortened. AS I see mid-sized vehicles travel by me, I rarely see anyone in the rear seat, so legroom in rear may not be a factor. I can't recall seeing 4 adults in a mid-sizer going somewhere. Those buyers probably have SUVs. The criticism of the rear seat Malibu is not as meaningful to most buyers as the critics might want it to be. When's the last time Motor Trend or Car and Driver tested the performance of a mid-size car with 4 people in it while testing G-forces in slaloms and 0-60 times? ...the things they seem to hold important.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is that worse in reliability or are they dinging it for the telematics?
I guess we're back to the age old CR argument that Imidazol97 refers to; are the bottom cars really significantly worse than the top rated ones or are we talking decimal points?
I can't identify cars worth a hoot in Mystery Car Pix much less going 70 down the Interstate, but I noticed a couple of Caravans, a couple of big vans, probably Econolines and lots of sedans. Some likely were GMs. :shades: Should have kept score; bet there were 15 or 20 on the shoulder. Quite a few had been sitting long enough to have cop stickers on them.
They're not. Nowadays, I think the only rating that really needs to raise a red flag is "much worse than average". Cars have gotten so good these days that CR actually changed the "worse than average" rating to "fair"
As for the ratings, the overall rating that they list at the bottom is relative to other cars, but the individual component ratings (engine, trans, body, brakes, etc) are based on what percentage of respondents have problems.
So, a car could score "better than average" in every single rating, but still get a bad overall rating, if most other cars scored "much better than average".
For the individual ratings, last time I looked, the breakdown was something like this:
0-3% failure rate: Much Better than Average
3-5%: Better than Average
5-9%: Average
9-14%: Fair (formerly known as "worse than average")
14%+ Much worse than average.
The Camaro ZL1.
That's why any credit card with real cash back is 100 times better than those cards with ultra restrictive "rewards" for every purchase you make. No one can refuse legal tender legally, which is why it's always 100 times better.
With a cash back card you could apply the $2K to a Camaro ZL1, for example.