How about those 1956 Crown Victorias with the chrome band across the roof. I've looked at those on ebay motors with semi-somewhat-possible intentions to buy one.
I've seen some in the last few days with nice big tires and wheels that fill the wheel openings. I'll assume they were LTZ's.
Frankly, I'll look forward to the '14 Impala/'13 Traverse-like grille they're supposed to put on the revamped version. I like the rear, think the profile is OK (though not as nice as the '12 IMHO), and I do like that you can get them with side moldings, which for some reason cars in commercials and mag reviews never show. Except for the tighter rear seat, I like the interior and instrument panel...in fact, I like it better than the previous car for looks/feel.
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Stay focused on the current car, OW. Vaunted CR felt, apparently, the lower-priced model was better engineered than the lower-line Optima. My guess is that next year it'll be 'recommended'.
Seems the Lower-Line Optima was Recomended but not the Impal or Malibu. Fact!
In the meantime, at least people with short back-seat riders should see some excellent buys before the CR hangers-on find out!
I don't buy CR, but thumb through it for free. What is your take on Hyundai's black dots and why do you think that Kia (apparently) is better when they are the same company? Honest question.
Same reason Buick has better reliability than GMC.
I think a very distinct difference is people need to move on from their 1995 or older experiences.
But it bothers me wholeheartedly that Chrysler kept selling the Neon model well into the 21st Century. They sold them to unsuspecting customers in '96, '97, '98, '99, '00 and beyond.
Why they didn't cancel the factories and vehicle after one to two years of dismal results is beyond me.
I suppose it has something to do with the UAW getting paid whether they make garbage or not.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Geez, that's pretty. Now that I think about it, the skirts might have been standard on a Crown Victoria. They're not bad, like those aftermarket ones that go the whole way to the back bumper!
As the cars got older--way older--I remember seeing them around without the headlight rims, and the chrome 'banjo' like trim on the taillights would come off. I have no idea if this is actually for real or not, but I remember my uncle saying that the headlight rims were only held on by one screw.
I don't recall '56 Fords rusting out over the headlights like '56 Chevys do. That said, I'd be proud to have either in my garage.
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My dad's first new car was a 56 Crown Vic - odd choice for a kid in the air force. It was some kind of leftover, and according to him was a special order single tone black car, never seen one like that in real life.
But it bothers me wholeheartedly that Chrysler kept selling the Neon model well into the 21st Century. They sold them to unsuspecting customers in '96, '97, '98, '99, '00 and beyond.
To this day, in snowy, salty NE OH, I bet I see the second-generation Neons a few times a week. Most don't look bad, either. I haven't seen a first-gen in quite a while. I think that says that at least they (second-gen Neons) are cheap to keep up. I also still see a ton of '96-02 Cavalier coupes around, most looking OK too. But then, those were built not far from here, unlike the Neons.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
:sick: I really don't think they STOLE our/your money.
If I steal 100 billion dollars from the US treasury, and return it 10 years later, is it not still theft?
Give me a break! :confuse:
I'd of charged Chrysler 100% interest rates and required collateral for loans. I'm sure the gov't was far nicer with there terms than the average person would have been, otherwise, they'd of received loans from the private market.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The thing that got me most was that all the hubbub on here about many other cars, but when CR showed they didn't even test as well as the "lame" Malibu (as it's been called on here)--the silence was deafening.
Listen, the '08 'Bu was the first significant family sedan GM produced in DECADES, afaic. Your '11 was a great car as well. But the facts remain before'08, the 'Bu was disastrous vs. the competition, much like all GM cars were until VERY RECENTLY. Then, to refresh it with what we see now is, well, SAME OLD GM.
Re-Do....perhaps someday, GM will get it right the first time. But that hope is tenuous, at best!
Their only real complaints were the tight back seat and the relatively high price.
EXACTLY! A FAMILY sedan that doesn't fit a family and then that good 'ole GM pricing system that begs for HUGE incentives...because the product does not meet the value proposition in the market, in the first place.
My friend had a '69 Camaro, my oldest 'Bro had a '58 Chevy and a '64 'Bu.
My younger 'Bro completely rebuilt by his hand '64 Nova with a 327/400 HP. My Dad bought a '79 Chevy 1/2 ton P/U which my ' Bro still has (rebuilt engin/rust/and all).
But the Chevy I love the most was my Mom's '56 Chevy Biscayne.
At the end of the day, that was then. This is NOW. GM lost it! :P
Buick and GMC don't share any product, do they--other than a single SUV? Rather apples and oranges.
OK, your right. Let's try Chevy and GMC. Use that one to compare against HyunKia.
Apples/Apples. :P
There is one overriding reason why the West Point, Ga. assembled Optima is Kia’s best seller: value for the dollar. And don’t forget the long 10-year, 100,000-mile limited powertrain warranty and 5-year, 50,000-mile basic coverage. Not to mention a “recommended” rating from Consumer Reports.
Say what you want, but IMO the domestic cars built from the mid 1950's into the early 1960's were truly art forms that provided transportation.
There were some very real masterpieces made back then.
I enjoy watching old TV episodes such as the original Perry Mason series, because that show seemed to highlight so many convertibles of the era. In that pretend world, everyone drove convertibles.
As I recall Chryslers recent loans were at a higher interest rate than they could get once money in the private sector was available again, this was the reason they got private sector financing to pay off their government loans as quickly as possible. I know you don't like them ( with reason) but at least in the second bailout the interest rate was high ( not 100% like you want ( loan sharking anyone) but still higher than normal, if they had been able to get financing from another source I think they would have) ( on the other hand I don't recall of the got additional money above and beyond the loans like GM did). In any case as far as I know their money has been repaid with whatever interest was owed
Isn't GM the world leader in full size pickup trucks? Chevrolet, GMC?
Shouldn't the world's largest (until recently) auto maker be able to put out a full line of competitive vehicles? Otherwise just dump the cars and be the truck company.
Man, with that excellent warranty (although Honda runs an entire commercial around here goofing on a long warranty--WTH?!), it's too bad apparently they can't engineer a base-model Optima that tests better than the new "lame" Malibu.
That '56 Chevy is a lovely car and a favorite Chevy of mine in a favorite color scheme of mine, but there was no such thing as a '56 Chevy Biscayne.
I might add, I still believe that there is no sane reason whatsoever why a Chevy version of a GMC product should have any reliability difference whatsoever from the GMC.
I'd have to dig to find the link/reference, but a friend sends me online "Automotive News" clips every so often and in the last month he sent one that said that Detroit has 92% of the truck market share. It suddenly became so much more apparent to me why they focus so much on trucks.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I'd have to dig to find the link/reference, but a friend sends me online "Automotive News" clips every so often and in the last month he sent one that said that Detroit has 92% of the truck market share. It suddenly became so much more apparent to me why they focus so much on trucks.
That's one area where Detroit dominates and where the vast majority of the profits come from.
No question I'd buy a domestic pickup, but with cars it wouldn't be likely.
I might add, I still believe that there is no sane reason whatsoever why a Chevy version of a GMC product should have any reliability difference whatsoever from the GMC.
There is definitely a difference between Chevy and GMC besides appearance. What is it? Quality, reliability, closer tolerances, better components? Why would GM have spent many millions on commercials over the years telling us that GMC is "Professional Grade".
I might add, I still believe that there is no sane reason whatsoever why a Chevy version of a GMC product should have any reliability difference whatsoever from the GMC.
Do buyers equip GMC with more options and electronics perhaps, or do they sell a much greater proportion of heavy duty trucks at GMC than Chevy? Otherwise, it may well be an aberration. Probably sampling error like too few GMC responses, or possibly GMC owners less/more inclined to report problems because they're embarrassed that they paid more than the Chevy?
A newspaper in our region reported that Chevy Cruze came in fourth in 2012 sales in compact car segment. The Honda Civic, the benchmark auto for many years, was first with 317,909. The Toyota Corolla was second at 290,947. The Ford Focus was 245,992. The Chevy Cruze was 237,758. Elantra, Sentra and Forte came in at 202,034, 106,395 and 75,681 respectively.
Newspaper said that Civic model has been offered by Honda for 40 years.
Chevrolet has gone through and discarded many small/compact car models in the last 40 or so years. Vega, Chevette, Cavalier, Cobalt. Can GM or Chevrolet ever unseat Honda Civic as the standard, the benchmark. The Saturn experiment did not work. Perhaps Cruze will eventually succeed.
For years, GM has been telling us that GMC was "Professional Grade". Is that supposed to mean it is better in one or more ways than their other offerings with Chevrolet? Or, was GM trying to suggest that GMC, rather than Chevrolet, was Professional Grade in that professionals, building contractors, supervisors, ranch foremen, etc drove GMC trucks and mere workers, carpenters, bricklayers, etc drove Chevrolets. Was GM trying to set up a class distinction?
Corvette, Camaro, Impala, Malibu, and Suburban were in use in 1975. What Toyota and Honda names are being used now that were used then? Corolla, and Civic. Cavalier was used for 24 model years.
Toyota has dumped Solara, Echo, Tercel, MR2, Corona, Cressida, and more I'm missing for sure.
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It's nice to be number one, but it can't be equated with 'good'. If it were, McDonald's would be the best-quality fast food place. I've never heard a soul say it was. It surely isn't mine.
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For years, GM has been telling us that GMC was "Professional Grade". Is that supposed to mean it is better in one or more ways than their other offerings with Chevrolet?
Of course it does. Have you ever had an introduction to management class? It's called 'puffing'.
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There was an article in this Monty's BMWCCA (BMW Car Club) Roundel magazine covering a comparison between the latest M3 and ZL1 performed at Lime Rock Park.
Overall, the car's likes/dislikes were almost identical, but the writer preferred the ZL1's manual transmission and brakes, but disliked the limited field of view provided by the ZL1 and some of the interior ergonomics. Overall, the writer said the ZL1 was a "great value for the money".
A newspaper in our region reported that Chevy Cruze came in fourth in 2012 sales in compact car segment. The Honda Civic, the benchmark auto for many years, was first with 317,909. The Toyota Corolla was second at 290,947. The Ford Focus was 245,992. The Chevy Cruze was 237,758. Elantra, Sentra and Forte came in at 202,034, 106,395 and 75,681 respectively.
I'm still amazed how many Corollas sell, mainly due to how outdated it is in comparison to competitive models.
Of course, they have really targeted their market and advertise it using terms like "reliable, affordable, economical".
Any model that sells over 200K a year is doing well in today's competitive market.
For years, GM has been telling us that GMC was "Professional Grade". Is that supposed to mean it is better in one or more ways than their other offerings with Chevrolet? Or, was GM trying to suggest that GMC, rather than Chevrolet, was Professional Grade in that professionals, building contractors, supervisors, ranch foremen, etc drove GMC trucks and mere workers, carpenters, bricklayers, etc drove Chevrolets. Was GM trying to set up a class distinction?
...and that must mean that the Acadia is a professional grade family SUV. :P
Corvette, Camaro, Impala, Malibu, and Suburban were in use in 1975. What Toyota and Honda names are being used now that were used then? Corolla, and Civic. Cavalier was used for 24 model years.
Toyota has dumped Solara, Echo, Tercel, MR2, Corona, Cressida, and more I'm missing for sure.
With the exception of Corvette (mainly due to its highly-targeted market), I wonder if long-running names really mean much in today's market.
From what I've seen, buyers don't really seem to put much stock in a long running name these days, although in years passed it certainly was a great selling point.
The car market seems rife with so many makes and models now.
Would Toyota sell as many units of the Carolla if they changed the name?
Corvette, Camaro, Impala, Malibu, and Suburban were in use in 1975. What Toyota and Honda names are being used now that were used then? Corolla, and Civic. Cavalier was used for 24 model years.
Toyota has dumped Solara, Echo, Tercel, MR2, Corona, Cressida, and more I'm missing for sure.
Camaro, Impala, and Malibu were in use in 1975, then dropped, and eventually the names were re-used on new models. That's completely different from being in continuous use since 1975 like Civic, Corvette, and Suburban.
The Corvette and Suburban are successful models for GM. The names have positive equity and therefore were retained, like Civic, Accord, Corolla, and Camry, among many others.
Chevrolet has dumped the Vega, Chevelle, Chevette, Beretta, Corsica, Citation, Cavalier, Metro, Prizm, S-10, (S-10) Blazer, Cobalt, and Caprice. That's without touching the rest of GM.
With the exception of Corvette (mainly due to its highly-targeted market), I wonder if long-running names really mean much in today's market.
Establishing a new name is basically establishing a new brand. It's expensive, first from the various researching involved to avoid trademark or copyright issues, and then the marketing campaigns that have to be built around building the name up.
Cheaper to keep using the same name, provided it hasn't generated too much negative equity by being on a bad car. Then you have to spend marketing money trying to shed the negative reputation. Which is not cheap, and as Uplanderguy can attest, not that easy to get doubters to swallow either. :shades:
Well, I guess you can't blame them for dropping a name when they don't build that type of vehicle at all anymore...like Uplander, Astro, HHR, and Monte Carlo from your list.
Even Toyota dropped Corona, then Cressida, which essentially became Avalon, and Tercel and Echo which were just basic bottom-line econo cars, not something like a sports model which just went away a la Supra.
And I'm not sure what caused them to add Scion, which doesn't seem to be anybody's idea of a great marketing concept.
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I don't know where to check, but I'd say that even in its final model year the Cavalier probably still sold in the Top Ten. Not sure how 'eroded' sales became.
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Comments
I've looked at those on ebay motors with semi-somewhat-possible intentions to buy one.
Frankly, I'll look forward to the '14 Impala/'13 Traverse-like grille they're supposed to put on the revamped version. I like the rear, think the profile is OK (though not as nice as the '12 IMHO), and I do like that you can get them with side moldings, which for some reason cars in commercials and mag reviews never show. Except for the tighter rear seat, I like the interior and instrument panel...in fact, I like it better than the previous car for looks/feel.
Seems the Lower-Line Optima was Recomended but not the Impal or Malibu. Fact!
In the meantime, at least people with short back-seat riders should see some excellent buys before the CR hangers-on find out!
I don't buy CR, but thumb through it for free. What is your take on Hyundai's black dots and why do you think that Kia (apparently) is better when they are the same company? Honest question.
Same reason Buick has better reliability than GMC.
Regards,
OW
But it bothers me wholeheartedly that Chrysler kept selling the Neon model well into the 21st Century. They sold them to unsuspecting customers in '96, '97, '98, '99, '00 and beyond.
Why they didn't cancel the factories and vehicle after one to two years of dismal results is beyond me.
I suppose it has something to do with the UAW getting paid whether they make garbage or not.
As the cars got older--way older--I remember seeing them around without the headlight rims, and the chrome 'banjo' like trim on the taillights would come off. I have no idea if this is actually for real or not, but I remember my uncle saying that the headlight rims were only held on by one screw.
I don't recall '56 Fords rusting out over the headlights like '56 Chevys do. That said, I'd be proud to have either in my garage.
To this day, in snowy, salty NE OH, I bet I see the second-generation Neons a few times a week. Most don't look bad, either. I haven't seen a first-gen in quite a while. I think that says that at least they (second-gen Neons) are cheap to keep up. I also still see a ton of '96-02 Cavalier coupes around, most looking OK too. But then, those were built not far from here, unlike the Neons.
If I steal 100 billion dollars from the US treasury, and return it 10 years later, is it not still theft?
Give me a break! :confuse:
I'd of charged Chrysler 100% interest rates and required collateral for loans. I'm sure the gov't was far nicer with there terms than the average person would have been, otherwise, they'd of received loans from the private market.
Listen, the '08 'Bu was the first significant family sedan GM produced in DECADES, afaic. Your '11 was a great car as well. But the facts remain before'08, the 'Bu was disastrous vs. the competition, much like all GM cars were until VERY RECENTLY. Then, to refresh it with what we see now is, well, SAME OLD GM.
Re-Do....perhaps someday, GM will get it right the first time. But that hope is tenuous, at best!
Regards,
OW
EXACTLY! A FAMILY sedan that doesn't fit a family and then that good 'ole GM pricing system that begs for HUGE incentives...because the product does not meet the value proposition in the market, in the first place.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Isn't GM the world leader in full size pickup trucks? Chevrolet, GMC?
My younger 'Bro completely rebuilt by his hand '64 Nova with a 327/400 HP. My Dad bought a '79 Chevy 1/2 ton P/U which my ' Bro still has (rebuilt engin/rust/and all).
But the Chevy I love the most was my Mom's '56 Chevy Biscayne.
At the end of the day, that was then. This is NOW. GM lost it! :P
Regards,
OW
OK, your right. Let's try Chevy and GMC. Use that one to compare against HyunKia.
Apples/Apples. :P
There is one overriding reason why the West Point, Ga. assembled Optima is Kia’s best seller: value for the dollar. And don’t forget the long 10-year, 100,000-mile limited powertrain warranty and 5-year, 50,000-mile basic coverage. Not to mention a “recommended” rating from Consumer Reports.
"Hello, Chevy? Anyone at home??"
Regards,
OW
There were some very real masterpieces made back then.
I enjoy watching old TV episodes such as the original Perry Mason series, because that show seemed to highlight so many convertibles of the era. In that pretend world, everyone drove convertibles.
The Corvette truly embodies that lost art at GM. It used to be almost every car.
Regards,
OW
Shouldn't the world's largest (until recently) auto maker be able to put out a full line of competitive vehicles? Otherwise just dump the cars and be the truck company.
That '56 Chevy is a lovely car and a favorite Chevy of mine in a favorite color scheme of mine, but there was no such thing as a '56 Chevy Biscayne.
I might add, I still believe that there is no sane reason whatsoever why a Chevy version of a GMC product should have any reliability difference whatsoever from the GMC.
I'd have to dig to find the link/reference, but a friend sends me online "Automotive News" clips every so often and in the last month he sent one that said that Detroit has 92% of the truck market share. It suddenly became so much more apparent to me why they focus so much on trucks.
That's one area where Detroit dominates and where the vast majority of the profits come from.
No question I'd buy a domestic pickup, but with cars it wouldn't be likely.
I'll concur. I see dozens every week. Heck my neighbor has 3 of them for his kids and himself.
There is definitely a difference between Chevy and GMC besides appearance. What is it? Quality, reliability, closer tolerances, better components? Why would GM have spent many millions on commercials over the years telling us that GMC is "Professional Grade".
So indeed the rate was absurd.
US basically exploited the help from Fiat.
Sounds like the classic payday loan situation to me.
IIRC, the Biscayne came out in 1958..,
Do buyers equip GMC with more options and electronics perhaps, or do they sell a much greater proportion of heavy duty trucks at GMC than Chevy? Otherwise, it may well be an aberration. Probably sampling error like too few GMC responses, or possibly GMC owners less/more inclined to report problems because they're embarrassed that they paid more than the Chevy?
Newspaper said that Civic model has been offered by Honda for 40 years.
Chevrolet has gone through and discarded many small/compact car models in the last 40 or so years. Vega, Chevette, Cavalier, Cobalt. Can GM or Chevrolet ever unseat Honda Civic as the standard, the benchmark. The Saturn experiment did not work. Perhaps Cruze will eventually succeed.
Corvette, Camaro, Impala, Malibu, and Suburban were in use in 1975. What Toyota and Honda names are being used now that were used then? Corolla, and Civic. Cavalier was used for 24 model years.
Toyota has dumped Solara, Echo, Tercel, MR2, Corona, Cressida, and more I'm missing for sure.
Of course it does. Have you ever had an introduction to management class? It's called 'puffing'.
Overall, the car's likes/dislikes were almost identical, but the writer preferred the ZL1's manual transmission and brakes, but disliked the limited field of view provided by the ZL1 and some of the interior ergonomics. Overall, the writer said the ZL1 was a "great value for the money".
I'm still amazed how many Corollas sell, mainly due to how outdated it is in comparison to competitive models.
Of course, they have really targeted their market and advertise it using terms like "reliable, affordable, economical".
Any model that sells over 200K a year is doing well in today's competitive market.
...and that must mean that the Acadia is a professional grade family SUV. :P
Toyota has dumped Solara, Echo, Tercel, MR2, Corona, Cressida, and more I'm missing for sure.
With the exception of Corvette (mainly due to its highly-targeted market), I wonder if long-running names really mean much in today's market.
From what I've seen, buyers don't really seem to put much stock in a long running name these days, although in years passed it certainly was a great selling point.
The car market seems rife with so many makes and models now.
Would Toyota sell as many units of the Carolla if they changed the name?
Toyota has dumped Solara, Echo, Tercel, MR2, Corona, Cressida, and more I'm missing for sure.
Camaro, Impala, and Malibu were in use in 1975, then dropped, and eventually the names were re-used on new models. That's completely different from being in continuous use since 1975 like Civic, Corvette, and Suburban.
The Corvette and Suburban are successful models for GM. The names have positive equity and therefore were retained, like Civic, Accord, Corolla, and Camry, among many others.
Chevrolet has dumped the Vega, Chevelle, Chevette, Beretta, Corsica, Citation, Cavalier, Metro, Prizm, S-10, (S-10) Blazer, Cobalt, and Caprice. That's without touching the rest of GM.
Establishing a new name is basically establishing a new brand. It's expensive, first from the various researching involved to avoid trademark or copyright issues, and then the marketing campaigns that have to be built around building the name up.
Cheaper to keep using the same name, provided it hasn't generated too much negative equity by being on a bad car. Then you have to spend marketing money trying to shed the negative reputation. Which is not cheap, and as Uplanderguy can attest, not that easy to get doubters to swallow either. :shades:
The Cavalier one is kind of sad. Kept it around for 24 years, then killed it - because they had eroded 100% of any brand equity it contained.
You could say they were just too *cavalier* about it.... :P
Even Toyota dropped Corona, then Cressida, which essentially became Avalon, and Tercel and Echo which were just basic bottom-line econo cars, not something like a sports model which just went away a la Supra.
And I'm not sure what caused them to add Scion, which doesn't seem to be anybody's idea of a great marketing concept.
Never believe the commercials. I found out first hand.
Regards,
OW