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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    Oops...yeah, as soon as I posted that, I realized it could be taken a few different ways. :surprise:

    LOL, you know me, sometimes I can't resist;)

    I'm not big on the rear end either, but there are few if any cars in that price range that I wouldn't find some kind of fault with.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'll make the Chicago auto show, so I won't see one in person anytime soon.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    Are you serious? Comical. Acura NSX which certainly fetches more of it's original MSRP than any Cadillac of that period

    I did post (EXCLUDING NSX)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    You mention the SC. A friend has his parents' old SC300. I am completely unimpressed (although I know it's nearly 20 years old). He says that thing cost in the 40's back then. It looks like a compact car with leather interior--to my eyes, not an expensive-looking thing about it. And my Cavalier coupe actually had more published rear-seat legroom than the SC300 (I know that because I won an argument with a mutual friend who said he could fit in the back of an SC300 but not a Cavalier coupe).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    I did post (EXCLUDING NSX)

    I apologize for not seeing (I don't know how I missed it) your disclaimer.

    I still stand by my response. Comparing an Lexus SC with 180k miles to an Allante with 61 k doesn't mean anything.

    Just for some reality and I don't even know if this really means anything. But I looked up Lexus SC models from '87 to '93 on Autotrader vs Elderado's from the same period.

    Eldorado 91-95 avg. $5,157 with a high of $16,999 and low of $745 with 250 listings.

    Lexus SC 91-95 avg. $6,217 with a high of $16,000 and low of $1,300 with 209 listings.

    I did put a $20k price ceiling as there was a crazy modified SC for $40k.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    I think the biggest point of contention some will have with the new Impala's styling is the crease/dip in the rear door. I see it as homage to the rear quarter 'hips' of the '65-68 cars.

    I still think it rather stinks that CR, in their Buyers' Guide, had a photo of the '14 and under it listed all the things they didn't like about the previous car. To those not in the know, like us here, that was a little misleading.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Cadillac has been playing catchup with Lexus and Acura in lux and entry level lux since late 1980's. Perhaps it has caught up with latest gen CTS.

    Cadillac has trailed Acura in terms of quality, reliability. Wife had experience with a 2001 Acura TL for 3 years and about 75K miles before trading in on 2004 TL. The 2001 only needed oil changes, routine fluid maintenance. It was bulllitproof.

    According to Kelly Blue Book owner ratings, they had 211 persons rating the Catera model years 1997-2001. The average rating was 5.8 of 10. For Acura, there were 429 ratings for TL model years 1999-2003 and average rating was 8.6 of 10. Acura clearly superior to Cadillac.

    For current value, Suggested Retail Price, by Kelly, for a 2001 Catera and 2001 Acura TL both with 84,000 miles and in excellent condition and with similar equipment, the Catera is priced at $3990 and the Acura TL at $6880. The Acura is priced at 72 percent greater than Catera.

    Catera is 192 inches long, 107 inches wheelbase, 3770 pounds, has 200 HP 3.0L V6.

    Acura is 192 inches lone, 108 inches wheelbase, 3484 pounds, has 225 HP 3.2L V6.

    Catera long gone. Model and name tossed on GM dumping grounds.

    Comparison of 2001 Catera with 2001 Lexus ES 300 perhaps would also show the Lexus superior to Cadillac.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    And my Cavalier coupe actually had more published rear-seat legroom than the SC300

    I'd ride in the trunk of an SC before being seen in Cavalier of that period;)

    I don't recall the SC being much more expensive than a comparative Eldorado or Mark VIII. Particularly the SC 300.

    Of the 3 I always liked the SC over the Lincoln or Cadillac, mainly due to it being more sporty. The Mark VIII was junk and the Caddy to gaudy for my tastes at the time and being FWD. I didn't care about rear seat room then.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Catera's were junk. I had a coworker who leased a Catera in the early 2000's. It was always in the shop and She couldn't wait for the lease was up.

    Plus my sister used to work at an Enterprise location that was inside a Cadillac dealer. She always talked about the rude Catera owners who always were getting rentals while their cars were in the shop.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    think the biggest point of contention some will have with the new Impala's styling is the crease/dip in the rear door. I see it as homage to the rear quarter 'hips' of the '65-68 cars.

    Yeah, I can sort of see that. It even has a bit of a skeg in the lower door that reminds me of the lower crease in my '67 Catalina. From certain angles, it also makes me think of that lower spear/dip that Buick tended to use over the years.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    edited February 2013
    Cadillac has trailed Acura in terms of quality, reliability.

    Not any more:

    According to a 2012 JD Power dependability study of model year 2009 cars,
    Cadillac ranked 3rd among brands with an average of 104 problems per 100 vehicles, compared to 11th place Acura with 129 problems per 100 vehicles. Acura was very close to the average number of 132 per 100.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    edited February 2013
    I'd ride in the trunk of an SC before being seen in Cavalier of that period;)

    Could've bought three or more for the same price...and it employed people who lived in my town (I know not yours though! ;)).

    About the Catera...my old Chevy dealer was also a Caddy dealer. A tech whom I know wheeled a Catera in (this is a few years back) and I said to the Service Writer, a great guy who looks like President Obama (!), "the Caddy that zigs" and he said, "Yeah, it zigs all right" with a sigh!
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  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Cadillac has trailed Acura for a long time, but maybe finally is catching up in quality and reliability in the last year or two. Perhaps Annual April CR issue will show Cadillac caught or surpassed Acura in the last 2 or 3 model years. We will see.

    Older Cadillacs are to be avoided per CR Buying Guide 2013 page 186. Various CTS models and years as well as DTS, SRX, STS, DeVille, Escalade are listed as used cars to avoid. In contrast, not a single Acura model is listed as a used car to avoid.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    edited February 2013
    Even if an Acura is truly more reliable....I wouldn't buy such an ugly vehicle. I think they redid this feature, but that "Joker" grin in the front was truly hideous.

    Plus...are any Acuras built in the U.S.? I don't know.

    Purely unscientific, but it sure seems like Acura has Caddy beat lately...in the number of cars recalled, requiring what could well be an unscheduled visit to the dealer.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Acura lost their mojo - I'd rather have a 6 speed manual Legend than anything in their lineup today. The cars aren't bad, they're quite competent, there's just nothing you could lust after.

    Caddy is the opposite - I really had no interest in any Cadillac models 15 years ago, but today I'd have trouble deciding between a CTS-V and an ATS.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Even if an Acura is truly more reliable....I wouldn't buy such an ugly vehicle. I think they redid this feature, but that "Joker" grin in the front was truly hideous.

    They goofed up in 2009 with that beak. Acura is due for a new generation TL in 2014. Maybe they will return to elegant and decent styling as they had in the previous gen 2004-2008.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I really had no interest in any Cadillac models 15 years ago, but today I'd have trouble deciding between a CTS-V and an ATS.

    Hard to imagine a Cadillac with a 4-cylinder engine. ATS harkens back to Cimmaron in that regard.

    4-cyl ATS may handle better than 6-cyl. Will dealers load up the 6-cyl with all options and dealer installed stuff, than put a "market adjustment" of a few thousand dollars onto the overall price.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    From what I've read the turbo 4 is the sweet spot. The V6 is nose heavy, the base engine a bit weak.

    The market is too competitive for adjustments like that.

    Hmm, spoke to soon? Fitzmall.com isn't even posting no-haggle prices, gotta click to get a quote. They must be really hot sellers.

    I drove a $51k Jag with a 2.0T four banger. It's the new reality.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    They goofed up in 2009 with that beak. Acura is due for a new generation TL in 2014. Maybe they will return to elegant and decent styling as they had in the previous gen 2004-2008.

    Not only that, but the 2009 Acura TL reverted back to that old 70's domestic idiom of making them bigger on the outside, but with little useable gain in interior room. One of my coworkers leased a 2009 TL when they first came out, replacing a previous-gen model. I sat in it once or twice, and wasn't all that impressed. Seemed a lot bigger than the previous one, but kind of cramped inside. A bit plasticky too.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    the base engine a bit weak.

    201HP is weak? Compare that to the 180HP the new 320i will be putting out, or the ~200HP from the base MB 1.8T engine, or the ~200HP from the 2.5L V6 in the Lexus IS.

    But, I agree with you that the 2.0L Turbo (272HP) is the engine to get. Splits the 328i and 335i pretty nicely.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's analyze those base engines .... zzzzZZZZZZZZZZ. ;)

    I guess for people who aren't in to cars, it's cheaper and uses less fuel.

    But why get a sports sedan at all, then?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I guess for people who aren't in to cars, it's cheaper and uses less fuel.

    But why get a sports sedan at all, then?


    Well, poseurs gotta pose, right?
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I guess for people who aren't in to cars, it's cheaper and uses less fuel.

    But why get a sports sedan at all, then?


    How does that adage go ... "Better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow".

    Hey, you've got a Miata, you're the living embodiment of that statement. ;)

    I wouldn't mind the 320i .. 180HP is more than enough .. it's more about the 'grounded to the ground' ( :blush: ) feeling you get from driving a BMW.

    The problem is, a 320i spec'd out the way I like would still run $40K.

    If only BMW would put the 180HP engine into the 1-series ....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Miata is light, you'd be surprised how quick it is, especially when you don't have to slow down for turns.

    People seem to like GM's 2.0T, and BMW's 2.0T also. M-B's is not as powerful but it is a bit smoother than the Bimmer (I sampled them back to back). I wonder how the Caddy's compares in smoothness?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Cadillac has trailed Acura for a long time, but maybe finally is catching up in quality and reliability in the last year or two. Perhaps Annual April CR issue will show Cadillac caught or surpassed Acura in the last 2 or 3 model years. We will see.

    I also wonder what 5 or 7 years out looks like, rather than just 3 years. It's pretty easy to maintain reliability for a shorter period of time. There are a lot of people who do keep cars for well over 100K, so for them the long term reliability matters. Not so much if you change cars a lot.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Even if an Acura is truly more reliable....I wouldn't buy such an ugly vehicle. I think they redid this feature, but that "Joker" grin in the front was truly hideous.

    Plus...are any Acuras built in the U.S.? I don't know.


    Agreed about the more recent Acuras. However my TL is a 2005 which IMHO is one of the nicest looking sedans around. Too bad they botched that all up - and the sales show it.

    My TL was made in the US, 65% US parts content.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But why get a sports sedan at all, then?

    It's not all about power for some, but about handling.

    We have a Mazda 5 which is a micro minivan and not very powerful, but I tell you that thing steers way better than my '05 Acura TL.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2013
    I agree.... I have a 328i convertible with 230 HP. I get the sportiness without the excessive amperes under the hood.

    If it had 300 hp like its larger sibling, I'd get myself into all kinds of trouble, and I typically don't drive aggressively (I'm 58 and passed that stage in life). I can't imagine the tickets I'd get with a M3 or ZL1...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    180hp is a lot less, though. And those aren't light cars.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    180hp is a lot less, though. And those aren't light cars.

    That is a good point.

    One of my more favorite metrics when comparing cars is pounds per HP.

    My fleet comprises of three vehicles:

    2010 MINI - 21.76 lbs/hp
    2010 Mazda CX-7 - 15.52 lbs/hp
    2006 ION - 20.01 lbs/hp

    The best car we've ever had was our '05 Saturn VUE (Honda V6 engine) - 14.52 lbs/hp - almost as good as a 128i (13.95) or Volvo C30 T5 (14.10) and better than a GTI (16.07), Mazda 3s (18.25) or Mini Clubman S (15.77).

    I'll have to crunch the numbers on the 320i to see where it falls.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    180hp is a lot less, though. And those aren't light cars.

    Agreed. Thats why I have a 328... I also have my minimum requirements...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    My minivan has nearly 100hp more then the Miata, but the Miata is still quicker by far.

    Not that the van is slow....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ok, so the back seat feels tight, right? That's mostly psychological. High window sill.

    Toss in a glass roof, problem solved! It should let the light in and make the interior feel roomier than it is.

    You can't break the laws of physics but you can fool the human mind.

    Plus I want some sort of panoramic roof.
  • ajvdhajvdh Member Posts: 223
    From what I've read the turbo 4 is the sweet spot. The V6 is nose heavy, the base engine a bit weak.

    I didn't get to drive it, but I sat in an ATS at a dealer last weekend. Turbo-4 in the "luxury" trim. The sales guy had me fire up the engine so we could play with all the electronic doo-dads. You can tell when it's running, so it's not like the old V8s, but at idle it's as smooth as the inline six in our '03 530.

    The configurable dashboard is a good idea, but I hope owners get it set up before hitting the road. CUE is pretty good, though once in a while a little sluggish, and there are some inconsistencies (sometimes you can "drag" to change a setting, sometimes you have to hit virtual +/- buttons). Once again, not something to futz with while driving. The sound system is typical for Bose: high end is rolled off a bit, deep bass is missing and high bass a little overboosted and muddy.

    Front seats are very comfortable, with some nice looking leather. Back seat is not that great - the bottom cushion is a little short and it curves quite a bit, so your outside leg has less support than the inside one.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    DI engines tend to clatter.

    How is back seat room? Adult friendly?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Ok, so the back seat feels tight, right? That's mostly psychological. High window sill.

    Oh, so when I see the front seatback about 2 and a half inches from the front of the back seat cushion, it's all in my mind, right? :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, small windows make people anxious and you stick your knees WAY out involuntarily. :D
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Plus...are any Acuras built in the U.S.? I don't know.

    Most are as a matter of fact:

    RDX is built in East Liberty, OH and Marysville, OH
    TL is built in Marysville, OH
    ILX is built in Greensburg, IN
    MDX and ZDX are built in Alliston, ON
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ontario is NA but not US. I'm sure you knew that, but misspoke.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Well some folks here consider Mexico to be America so I included Ontario (which is really America's 51st state).
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Now you're going to get the French separatists worked up!
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited February 2013
    Now you're going to get the French separatists worked up!

    Oh like they would care if Ontario joined America.

    IIRC, at one time the Quebecois proposed their independence, everything west would stay as Canada and the Maritimes could join the US. They didn't like the idea of being surrounded by the rest Canada.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    How is back seat room? Adult friendly?

    Not at all. I didn't even try to get in there. Continuing a grand tradition of including rear seats solely to lower the insurance rate and to act as a baby-seat shelf. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    With babies you need leg room else the kids kick the back of your seat!

    Overachievers in the rear leg room area include the Impreza and the Sentra.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    We almost got Newfoundland but Joey Smallwood was too smart (and we really weren't that interested I don't think).

    "The Treasury Department said Monday its estimate of losses on the $85 billion auto bailout fell by 16 percent, or $4 billion, in large part because of a rebound in General Motors Co.'s stock price." (Detroit News)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    What Acura models sold in the U.S. (to everybody!) are built in Japan? Are any?
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  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    RLX and TSX.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,860
    Thank you.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So both of the RLs they sold were imported, ok. ;)
  • ajvdhajvdh Member Posts: 223
    How is back seat room? Adult friendly?

    I'm 5'8". I adjusted the front seat for me and then got in the back. I had clearance for my knees. It's a smidge smaller than the current 3-series, and more claustrophobic 'cause of the sill height.

    I'd class it as "OK for around town, tolerable for an hour or so, maybe a bit tight for longer." IOW, about right for the size class of the car.
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