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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130213/OEM/130219924/lexus-- again-tops-j-d-power-dependability-study-detroit-3-narrow-gap&cciid=email-autone- ws-blast#axzz2KnMxE3LP

    Buick did quite well.

    Chevy beat the average, too. Lots of makes crowd the middle, wonder what the margin of error is? There are a few outliers, Land Rover and Mitsubishi and VW still have work to do. Lexus on top by a decent margin.

    I will beat uplanderguy to it and point out that Chevy finished ahead of Hyundai and Kia. Sorry to steal your thunder, up! ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    Chevy and Ford really almost identical; what's surprising to me (really) are the names way down at the bottom...from what I hear here all the time ;).

    Of course, we'll get into the same arguments we did here last time something like this was posted....is ergonomics a 'problem'? I don't believe that kind of thing is what this is based on, but I'm absolutely certain others will disagree.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Power said Mitsubishi, Scion, Cadillac and Hyundai reported the biggest increase in problems in the study. So, what's going on at Cadillac.

    "Power said the most dependable 2010 model was the Lexus RX -- with 57 problems per 100 models surveyed. It's the first time an SUV or crossover has topped the list of models studied for long-term reliability."

    But, is a problem a problem a problem? Does Power distinguish between major and minor problems? Some problems could be safety or vehicle operational issues which most would consider major. Other problems might not affect safe operation of vehicle.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    But, is a problem a problem a problem? Does Power distinguish between major and minor problems?

    Does CR?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    CR does distinguish between major and minor for engine and transmission.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    edited February 2013
    I'm talking about when they do a weighted, overall rating, like we're looking at from this Powers survey.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CR does, yes. They weigh serious problems more heavily.

    Cadillac - these are 3 year old models, right? We're new designs introduced right around then, I wonder?

    Every brand has v1.0 issues to iron out.

    Overall we're talking about differences of 0.2 problems per car from a high rated brand to a low rated one in most cases.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    I know their 'methodology' involves comparing to other cars, but it always blows my mind to see a whole column of red and not a single black mark, then see a black mark at the bottom as 'overall'.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    Not me - a new car should be perfect. One problem is much worse than average, when average is zero problems.

    On the same note, TrueDelta publishes "Nada Odds" and most good cars have 99% of the sample with zero problems.

    If you're in the one percent you are unlucky and your car stand out in surveys.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    a new car should be perfect

    How many new cars have your purchased? ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Good to see Mazda ahead of Chevy, Caddy and GMC as my wife's CX-9 is a 2010, for which year the study was based. :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I can't imagine the tickets I'd get with a M3 or ZL1...

    Two words: Radar Detector

    Escort 9500 models have built in GPS and can combine with a smartphone to do amazingly clever things to help you avoid trouble with the revenue enforcers.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Exactly, you don't want your "sporty" car to do so poorly on the straights from being underpowered that a typical Accord or Camry will win the race against you (even though your faster in the turns and twisties).

    Ideally, you want to be able to keep up even in the straights. BMW has learned that lesson from 2006 on when the 330 got powerful.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    RDX is built in East Liberty, OH and Marysville, OH
    TL is built in Marysville, OH
    ILX is built in Greensburg, IN
    MDX and ZDX are built in Alliston, ON


    Interesting. I know the TSX's I looked at in '06 (previous generation which is considered the best version by those in the know), were all built in Japan, and interestingly, seemed to have very fine fit and finish.

    I loved the TL the best, but it almost made me mad how good the less expensive TSX was.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I guarantee you that with the demographics of buyers a BMW 3-Series includes, you'd get 2 complaints for the same thing, only different:

    One lease buyer with an automatic transmission will probably say "The exhaust is too loud and buzzy."

    Another purchase buyer with a manual might say "the exhaust is too muffled and toned down."
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I have been very lucky recently. My wife has had ups and downs but she's good now so it's a keeper. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I do think expectations play a role.

    You may tolerate a squeak in a Chevy that would not in a Cadillac.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    what's surprising to me (really) are the names way down at the bottom...from what I hear here all the time .

    Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Land Rover, what's surprising about that? They've been at the bottom of every list for decades now!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    As a 3-series owner, I would say you have it pegged perfectly.

    The range of a 3-series owner runs from an upscale (at least, in her opinion) mother wanting the safest ride for her kids (remember the Volvo moms in the 1990's?) to some guy who fancies himself a "street racer", and everything in between.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    the company's third straight annual profit since its 2009 bankruptcy

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130214/OEM/130219913#ixzz2Ksyn226o
    Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

    Just think, they could have let a chinese company like Chery acquire whatever was left and then all those profits would be going to China. ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    I guarantee you that with the demographics of buyers a BMW 3-Series includes, you'd get 2 complaints for the same thing, only different:

    One lease buyer with an automatic transmission will probably say "The exhaust is too loud and buzzy."

    Another purchase buyer with a manual might say "the exhaust is too muffled and toned down."


    Are these things considered a 'problem'? I don't think so.

    I think 'problem' means 'something you take to the dealer to repair'.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Oddly, to JDP and associates a poorly designed cup holder, that doesn't work well, is considered a design flaw, and would count against the car.

    It's not broken, just badly designed and fails at its function.

    Weird.

    The Hummer H2 got dinged for MPG that didn't meet expectations. Nothing was broken, but they considered it an issue because owners complained about it.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    the company's third straight annual profit since its 2009 bankruptcy

    IMHO, the measure of the company's success won't be when the auto sales are doing well, it will be whether they can continue to do decently during the next downturn.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    edited February 2013
    I know that's been discussed before, but I find that hard to believe. I think 90% of Americans would define 'problem' as 'something that needs repaired', not a design dislike. I'm supposed to be working so am not going to search on Powers' site, but again...seems hard to believe.

    I mean, this isn't their 'likeability' survey, or even 'owner satisfaction', it's a 'problem' survey.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I would agree, but fuel economy can be a problem. If your vehicle is rated to get 12, 30, 50, or whatever, and it's getting 6, 15, 25, and so on. You'd likely be taking it to the dealer to see what's going on.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Well, sort of. I got Googled.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Article stated: "For the full year, GM's net income was $4.86 billion, vs. a record $7.59 billion in 2011. Operating income in 2012, before any one-time items, was $7.86 billion, down from $8.30 billion in 2011."

    So, income in 2012 down from 2011. Also, did not see mention that GM sill owes we taxpayers $21 Billion.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    Geez, that Buick looks good in that pic!

    I see what you meant, earlier, about the common color. It seems like most are that color! ;)

    Every once in a while I'd see one that was the color of spring grass. I liked that but I don't think it was very popular.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I know that's been discussed before, but I find that hard to believe. I think 90% of Americans would define 'problem' as 'something that needs repaired', not a design dislike.

    Per Car and Driver:

    Raffi Festekjian, J. D. Power’s director of automotive product research, explains that the IQS was designed to capture “things gone wrong” with a vehicle. Each one is called a “problem,” and it can be “either a fault in the assembly of the vehicle or a design issue.” A fault might be a poorly assembled door panel or a loose electrical connection, while a design issue is something that a customer doesn’t like—a multifunction cruise-control stalk, for example—even though the item is performing exactly as intended.

    I'm supposed to be working...

    As are most of us - get your priorities straight!! :)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    edited February 2013
    If that's the case, I thus put no more weight in their survey than in CR's, where you have to pay for their subscription to be counted. ;)

    All kidding aside, I think that's very disappointing about Powers.

    EDIT: "IQS" equals "Initial Quality Survey" doesn't it, not "things gone wrong in 36 months"?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited February 2013
    EDIT: "IQS" equals "Initial Quality Survey" doesn't it, not "things gone wrong in 36 months"?

    Who is talking about 36 months? The article refers to 90 day IQS.

    If you read the article, it notes that JD Powers takes the definition of quality literally:

    But Webster’s concise definition of quality is “the degree of excellence which a thing possesses.”

    Something may work as designed but if it's a poor design, is it still a quality item??
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    That's awesome. How did you find that?

    I've stalked out areas where I usually am, looking for my cars - no luck.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Google Earth pic of my place still shows my 1988 Park Avenue parked on the street.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    The survey posted the other day was problems in three years ownership, on 2010 model cars.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    That's awesome. How did you find that?

    I remembered driving out that way back in May of last year with a friend, going to a party, and there was a Googlemaps car off on the shoulder of the exit lane, going really slow. I've actually tried looking at that spot every once in awhile, but for the longest time it looked like there was a glitch, like the camera was over-exposed. or something. But then, yesterday I was bored, looked again, noticed that it appeared fixed, and found my car.

    I remember years ago, when bingmaps (or whatever it was called back in the day) first started doing birds-eye views, I looked up my Granddad's house, and my '79 5th Ave was parked out in front. That had to have been a one in a million shot...that they'd happen to fly over at a time that I happened to be there, and driving that car. Either that, or the gov't is watching me! :surprise:
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    When I use Google Earth to zoom in on my folks' house in California, it's got Dad's orange Chevy pickup in the driveway.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I see what you meant, earlier, about the common color. It seems like most are that color!

    Yeah, it's common enough that last week, as I was bringing it back from the repair shop, a couple hundred feet before I reached my house, a non-Ultra edition in the same color passed me going the other way. I gave a thumbs up to the driver, but he seemed oblivious.

    I've seen an occasional dark green Park Ave, sort of what I'd call Emerald Green? But I think you're right, that it wasn't too common. Shame, because I think it's a nice color. The other day I saw one in a nice silvery blue, too.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    The green I'm thinking of was dark, but not real dark. My guess is it was a '99, because I remember the same color available on the '99 Chevy Venture Van. I wanted our new van that color, but my wife wanted navy blue. I won't tell you what my wife called that green color. I'd almost (but not quite) call it a 'bright' green.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    edited February 2013
    Oh, that makes sense - having never noticed a google car on the road, that might explain why I am not in any street view pics. My cars also usually sit in a garage when not in use, limiting my chances.

    I have noticed my sister's old Focus is shown at her house, my brother's unique new wave graphics Toyota pickup in front of my mother's house, and on a GM note, my uncle's LeSabre at my grandmother's.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Apparently, Google came around my neighborhood again fairly recently (last time had been in the summer of '08), and managed to snag my uncle on the way home, in his '97 Silverado.

    They also got my yard, with my '79 New Yorker, looking pretty dusty and forlorn. And the grass well overdue for a cut. :blush:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Something may work as designed but if it's a poor design, is it still a quality item??

    So if I am understanding correctly are we saying that:

    The JDP IQS is about problems, which can include both things gone wrong as well as poor design issues; and

    ...the JDP 3 year survey is just about reliability (but excludes those "poor design issues" that were counted in the IQS, unless that leads to actual breakage of parts or system functions?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That's awesome. How did you find that?

    I agree, it's awesome.
    I suspect a truck from a company whose treacherous traitorous criminal executives who should be hanged took his picture!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I suspect a truck from a company whose treacherous traitorous criminal executives who should be hanged took his picture!

    I forget what it was, but for some reason I'm getting the mental image of a Nissan Quest.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I find that hard to believe

    Skepticism is fair, I've been guilty of that, too. :shades:

    But look here:

    http://autos.jdpower.com/research/MINI/Cooper/2012/Convertible/ratings.htm

    Under IQS, Body & Interior Quality - Design ? ...

    Then hover your mouse over the question mark....

    Read the part where it says "this score is based on problems with the front-/rear-end styling, the appearance of the interior and exterior, and the sound of the doors when closing".

    Hard to believe, sure, but there it is in black and white.

    Styling can be considered a "problem".

    But, wait, Cup Holders?!

    Yes, in reviews I read "cup holders too small to fit most drinks".

    Now do you believe me? :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So the follow-up question is, are these things included in the Durability Study?

    To be honest I'm not sure, but here:

    http://autos.jdpower.com/content/study-auto/p9FeKpq/2013-u-s-vehicle-dependabili- ty-study-results.htm

    That page says "The overall dependability score for each model is derived based on the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles".

    Remember, though. These folks just said they reported on problems with styling and appearance.

    So I'm not sure if they're included or not, but if it's a problem in the IQS, why would they define "problem" differently for the Durability Study?

    This is the same company, after all.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    Funny, that's exactly how I picture the $500 NYer looking every day :shades:

    Somehow I expect them to use Prius around here. Maybe a Volt.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,419
    You work for google? :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Lol!

    No.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,866
    edited February 2013
    I'm an auditor. I hear B.S. constantly, so I am skeptical. ;)

    I find it hard to believe that styling would be considered a reliability issue at three years. Does styling change from "initial" to three years of age?

    "Initial" testing would be more likely to include owner satisfaction, etc., it seems. But maybe not.

    "Durability" seems to me to be a much more specific word than "quality" (as in "initial quality"). Don't they also do an "APEAL" (like 'appeal') rating on cars fairly early on in their life?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2013
    There lies the REAL problem with these surveys...

    No clear definition of exactly what the survey is asking, and as the end result, what is being reported.

    Of course, it may be that way by design, so that the reader can gain whatever result and inference he/she is looking to find.

    As an auditor, I suspect you would agree that a clear definition of the "audit", as a survey might be called, is very important in reporting the results.

    It's why I take ALL surveys with a grain of salt. Informative, but not necessarily unbiased or factual (either by incompetence or design).

    That's my opinion, anyway.

    Oh, btw, the APEAL study results are at the bottom of the page ...

    http://autos.jdpower.com/research/MINI/Cooper/2012/Convertible/ratings.htm
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