Chevy beat the average, too. Lots of makes crowd the middle, wonder what the margin of error is? There are a few outliers, Land Rover and Mitsubishi and VW still have work to do. Lexus on top by a decent margin.
I will beat uplanderguy to it and point out that Chevy finished ahead of Hyundai and Kia. Sorry to steal your thunder, up!
Chevy and Ford really almost identical; what's surprising to me (really) are the names way down at the bottom...from what I hear here all the time .
Of course, we'll get into the same arguments we did here last time something like this was posted....is ergonomics a 'problem'? I don't believe that kind of thing is what this is based on, but I'm absolutely certain others will disagree.
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Power said Mitsubishi, Scion, Cadillac and Hyundai reported the biggest increase in problems in the study. So, what's going on at Cadillac.
"Power said the most dependable 2010 model was the Lexus RX -- with 57 problems per 100 models surveyed. It's the first time an SUV or crossover has topped the list of models studied for long-term reliability."
But, is a problem a problem a problem? Does Power distinguish between major and minor problems? Some problems could be safety or vehicle operational issues which most would consider major. Other problems might not affect safe operation of vehicle.
I know their 'methodology' involves comparing to other cars, but it always blows my mind to see a whole column of red and not a single black mark, then see a black mark at the bottom as 'overall'.
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I can't imagine the tickets I'd get with a M3 or ZL1...
Two words: Radar Detector
Escort 9500 models have built in GPS and can combine with a smartphone to do amazingly clever things to help you avoid trouble with the revenue enforcers.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Exactly, you don't want your "sporty" car to do so poorly on the straights from being underpowered that a typical Accord or Camry will win the race against you (even though your faster in the turns and twisties).
Ideally, you want to be able to keep up even in the straights. BMW has learned that lesson from 2006 on when the 330 got powerful.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
RDX is built in East Liberty, OH and Marysville, OH TL is built in Marysville, OH ILX is built in Greensburg, IN MDX and ZDX are built in Alliston, ON
Interesting. I know the TSX's I looked at in '06 (previous generation which is considered the best version by those in the know), were all built in Japan, and interestingly, seemed to have very fine fit and finish.
I loved the TL the best, but it almost made me mad how good the less expensive TSX was.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
As a 3-series owner, I would say you have it pegged perfectly.
The range of a 3-series owner runs from an upscale (at least, in her opinion) mother wanting the safest ride for her kids (remember the Volvo moms in the 1990's?) to some guy who fancies himself a "street racer", and everything in between.
Oddly, to JDP and associates a poorly designed cup holder, that doesn't work well, is considered a design flaw, and would count against the car.
It's not broken, just badly designed and fails at its function.
Weird.
The Hummer H2 got dinged for MPG that didn't meet expectations. Nothing was broken, but they considered it an issue because owners complained about it.
the company's third straight annual profit since its 2009 bankruptcy
IMHO, the measure of the company's success won't be when the auto sales are doing well, it will be whether they can continue to do decently during the next downturn.
I know that's been discussed before, but I find that hard to believe. I think 90% of Americans would define 'problem' as 'something that needs repaired', not a design dislike. I'm supposed to be working so am not going to search on Powers' site, but again...seems hard to believe.
I mean, this isn't their 'likeability' survey, or even 'owner satisfaction', it's a 'problem' survey.
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I would agree, but fuel economy can be a problem. If your vehicle is rated to get 12, 30, 50, or whatever, and it's getting 6, 15, 25, and so on. You'd likely be taking it to the dealer to see what's going on.
Article stated: "For the full year, GM's net income was $4.86 billion, vs. a record $7.59 billion in 2011. Operating income in 2012, before any one-time items, was $7.86 billion, down from $8.30 billion in 2011."
So, income in 2012 down from 2011. Also, did not see mention that GM sill owes we taxpayers $21 Billion.
I know that's been discussed before, but I find that hard to believe. I think 90% of Americans would define 'problem' as 'something that needs repaired', not a design dislike.
Raffi Festekjian, J. D. Power’s director of automotive product research, explains that the IQS was designed to capture “things gone wrong” with a vehicle. Each one is called a “problem,” and it can be “either a fault in the assembly of the vehicle or a design issue.” A fault might be a poorly assembled door panel or a loose electrical connection, while a design issue is something that a customer doesn’t like—a multifunction cruise-control stalk, for example—even though the item is performing exactly as intended.
I'm supposed to be working...
As are most of us - get your priorities straight!!
I remembered driving out that way back in May of last year with a friend, going to a party, and there was a Googlemaps car off on the shoulder of the exit lane, going really slow. I've actually tried looking at that spot every once in awhile, but for the longest time it looked like there was a glitch, like the camera was over-exposed. or something. But then, yesterday I was bored, looked again, noticed that it appeared fixed, and found my car.
I remember years ago, when bingmaps (or whatever it was called back in the day) first started doing birds-eye views, I looked up my Granddad's house, and my '79 5th Ave was parked out in front. That had to have been a one in a million shot...that they'd happen to fly over at a time that I happened to be there, and driving that car. Either that, or the gov't is watching me! :surprise:
I see what you meant, earlier, about the common color. It seems like most are that color!
Yeah, it's common enough that last week, as I was bringing it back from the repair shop, a couple hundred feet before I reached my house, a non-Ultra edition in the same color passed me going the other way. I gave a thumbs up to the driver, but he seemed oblivious.
I've seen an occasional dark green Park Ave, sort of what I'd call Emerald Green? But I think you're right, that it wasn't too common. Shame, because I think it's a nice color. The other day I saw one in a nice silvery blue, too.
The green I'm thinking of was dark, but not real dark. My guess is it was a '99, because I remember the same color available on the '99 Chevy Venture Van. I wanted our new van that color, but my wife wanted navy blue. I won't tell you what my wife called that green color. I'd almost (but not quite) call it a 'bright' green.
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Oh, that makes sense - having never noticed a google car on the road, that might explain why I am not in any street view pics. My cars also usually sit in a garage when not in use, limiting my chances.
I have noticed my sister's old Focus is shown at her house, my brother's unique new wave graphics Toyota pickup in front of my mother's house, and on a GM note, my uncle's LeSabre at my grandmother's.
Something may work as designed but if it's a poor design, is it still a quality item??
So if I am understanding correctly are we saying that:
The JDP IQS is about problems, which can include both things gone wrong as well as poor design issues; and
...the JDP 3 year survey is just about reliability (but excludes those "poor design issues" that were counted in the IQS, unless that leads to actual breakage of parts or system functions?
Read the part where it says "this score is based on problems with the front-/rear-end styling, the appearance of the interior and exterior, and the sound of the doors when closing".
Hard to believe, sure, but there it is in black and white.
Styling can be considered a "problem".
But, wait, Cup Holders?!
Yes, in reviews I read "cup holders too small to fit most drinks".
I'm an auditor. I hear B.S. constantly, so I am skeptical.
I find it hard to believe that styling would be considered a reliability issue at three years. Does styling change from "initial" to three years of age?
"Initial" testing would be more likely to include owner satisfaction, etc., it seems. But maybe not.
"Durability" seems to me to be a much more specific word than "quality" (as in "initial quality"). Don't they also do an "APEAL" (like 'appeal') rating on cars fairly early on in their life?
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No clear definition of exactly what the survey is asking, and as the end result, what is being reported.
Of course, it may be that way by design, so that the reader can gain whatever result and inference he/she is looking to find.
As an auditor, I suspect you would agree that a clear definition of the "audit", as a survey might be called, is very important in reporting the results.
It's why I take ALL surveys with a grain of salt. Informative, but not necessarily unbiased or factual (either by incompetence or design).
That's my opinion, anyway.
Oh, btw, the APEAL study results are at the bottom of the page ...
Comments
Buick did quite well.
Chevy beat the average, too. Lots of makes crowd the middle, wonder what the margin of error is? There are a few outliers, Land Rover and Mitsubishi and VW still have work to do. Lexus on top by a decent margin.
I will beat uplanderguy to it and point out that Chevy finished ahead of Hyundai and Kia. Sorry to steal your thunder, up!
Of course, we'll get into the same arguments we did here last time something like this was posted....is ergonomics a 'problem'? I don't believe that kind of thing is what this is based on, but I'm absolutely certain others will disagree.
"Power said the most dependable 2010 model was the Lexus RX -- with 57 problems per 100 models surveyed. It's the first time an SUV or crossover has topped the list of models studied for long-term reliability."
But, is a problem a problem a problem? Does Power distinguish between major and minor problems? Some problems could be safety or vehicle operational issues which most would consider major. Other problems might not affect safe operation of vehicle.
Does CR?
Cadillac - these are 3 year old models, right? We're new designs introduced right around then, I wonder?
Every brand has v1.0 issues to iron out.
Overall we're talking about differences of 0.2 problems per car from a high rated brand to a low rated one in most cases.
On the same note, TrueDelta publishes "Nada Odds" and most good cars have 99% of the sample with zero problems.
If you're in the one percent you are unlucky and your car stand out in surveys.
How many new cars have your purchased?
Regards,
OW
Two words: Radar Detector
Escort 9500 models have built in GPS and can combine with a smartphone to do amazingly clever things to help you avoid trouble with the revenue enforcers.
Ideally, you want to be able to keep up even in the straights. BMW has learned that lesson from 2006 on when the 330 got powerful.
TL is built in Marysville, OH
ILX is built in Greensburg, IN
MDX and ZDX are built in Alliston, ON
Interesting. I know the TSX's I looked at in '06 (previous generation which is considered the best version by those in the know), were all built in Japan, and interestingly, seemed to have very fine fit and finish.
I loved the TL the best, but it almost made me mad how good the less expensive TSX was.
One lease buyer with an automatic transmission will probably say "The exhaust is too loud and buzzy."
Another purchase buyer with a manual might say "the exhaust is too muffled and toned down."
You may tolerate a squeak in a Chevy that would not in a Cadillac.
Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Land Rover, what's surprising about that? They've been at the bottom of every list for decades now!
The range of a 3-series owner runs from an upscale (at least, in her opinion) mother wanting the safest ride for her kids (remember the Volvo moms in the 1990's?) to some guy who fancies himself a "street racer", and everything in between.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130214/OEM/130219913#ixzz2Ksyn226o
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Just think, they could have let a chinese company like Chery acquire whatever was left and then all those profits would be going to China.
One lease buyer with an automatic transmission will probably say "The exhaust is too loud and buzzy."
Another purchase buyer with a manual might say "the exhaust is too muffled and toned down."
Are these things considered a 'problem'? I don't think so.
I think 'problem' means 'something you take to the dealer to repair'.
It's not broken, just badly designed and fails at its function.
Weird.
The Hummer H2 got dinged for MPG that didn't meet expectations. Nothing was broken, but they considered it an issue because owners complained about it.
IMHO, the measure of the company's success won't be when the auto sales are doing well, it will be whether they can continue to do decently during the next downturn.
I mean, this isn't their 'likeability' survey, or even 'owner satisfaction', it's a 'problem' survey.
So, income in 2012 down from 2011. Also, did not see mention that GM sill owes we taxpayers $21 Billion.
I see what you meant, earlier, about the common color. It seems like most are that color!
Every once in a while I'd see one that was the color of spring grass. I liked that but I don't think it was very popular.
Per Car and Driver:
Raffi Festekjian, J. D. Power’s director of automotive product research, explains that the IQS was designed to capture “things gone wrong” with a vehicle. Each one is called a “problem,” and it can be “either a fault in the assembly of the vehicle or a design issue.” A fault might be a poorly assembled door panel or a loose electrical connection, while a design issue is something that a customer doesn’t like—a multifunction cruise-control stalk, for example—even though the item is performing exactly as intended.
I'm supposed to be working...
As are most of us - get your priorities straight!!
All kidding aside, I think that's very disappointing about Powers.
EDIT: "IQS" equals "Initial Quality Survey" doesn't it, not "things gone wrong in 36 months"?
Who is talking about 36 months? The article refers to 90 day IQS.
If you read the article, it notes that JD Powers takes the definition of quality literally:
But Webster’s concise definition of quality is “the degree of excellence which a thing possesses.”
Something may work as designed but if it's a poor design, is it still a quality item??
I've stalked out areas where I usually am, looking for my cars - no luck.
I remembered driving out that way back in May of last year with a friend, going to a party, and there was a Googlemaps car off on the shoulder of the exit lane, going really slow. I've actually tried looking at that spot every once in awhile, but for the longest time it looked like there was a glitch, like the camera was over-exposed. or something. But then, yesterday I was bored, looked again, noticed that it appeared fixed, and found my car.
I remember years ago, when bingmaps (or whatever it was called back in the day) first started doing birds-eye views, I looked up my Granddad's house, and my '79 5th Ave was parked out in front. That had to have been a one in a million shot...that they'd happen to fly over at a time that I happened to be there, and driving that car. Either that, or the gov't is watching me! :surprise:
Yeah, it's common enough that last week, as I was bringing it back from the repair shop, a couple hundred feet before I reached my house, a non-Ultra edition in the same color passed me going the other way. I gave a thumbs up to the driver, but he seemed oblivious.
I've seen an occasional dark green Park Ave, sort of what I'd call Emerald Green? But I think you're right, that it wasn't too common. Shame, because I think it's a nice color. The other day I saw one in a nice silvery blue, too.
I have noticed my sister's old Focus is shown at her house, my brother's unique new wave graphics Toyota pickup in front of my mother's house, and on a GM note, my uncle's LeSabre at my grandmother's.
They also got my yard, with my '79 New Yorker, looking pretty dusty and forlorn. And the grass well overdue for a cut.
So if I am understanding correctly are we saying that:
The JDP IQS is about problems, which can include both things gone wrong as well as poor design issues; and
...the JDP 3 year survey is just about reliability (but excludes those "poor design issues" that were counted in the IQS, unless that leads to actual breakage of parts or system functions?
I agree, it's awesome.
I suspect a truck from a company whose treacherous traitorous criminal executives who should be hanged took his picture!
I forget what it was, but for some reason I'm getting the mental image of a Nissan Quest.
Skepticism is fair, I've been guilty of that, too. :shades:
But look here:
http://autos.jdpower.com/research/MINI/Cooper/2012/Convertible/ratings.htm
Under IQS, Body & Interior Quality - Design ? ...
Then hover your mouse over the question mark....
Read the part where it says "this score is based on problems with the front-/rear-end styling, the appearance of the interior and exterior, and the sound of the doors when closing".
Hard to believe, sure, but there it is in black and white.
Styling can be considered a "problem".
But, wait, Cup Holders?!
Yes, in reviews I read "cup holders too small to fit most drinks".
Now do you believe me? :shades:
To be honest I'm not sure, but here:
http://autos.jdpower.com/content/study-auto/p9FeKpq/2013-u-s-vehicle-dependabili- ty-study-results.htm
That page says "The overall dependability score for each model is derived based on the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles".
Remember, though. These folks just said they reported on problems with styling and appearance.
So I'm not sure if they're included or not, but if it's a problem in the IQS, why would they define "problem" differently for the Durability Study?
This is the same company, after all.
Somehow I expect them to use Prius around here. Maybe a Volt.
No.
I find it hard to believe that styling would be considered a reliability issue at three years. Does styling change from "initial" to three years of age?
"Initial" testing would be more likely to include owner satisfaction, etc., it seems. But maybe not.
"Durability" seems to me to be a much more specific word than "quality" (as in "initial quality"). Don't they also do an "APEAL" (like 'appeal') rating on cars fairly early on in their life?
No clear definition of exactly what the survey is asking, and as the end result, what is being reported.
Of course, it may be that way by design, so that the reader can gain whatever result and inference he/she is looking to find.
As an auditor, I suspect you would agree that a clear definition of the "audit", as a survey might be called, is very important in reporting the results.
It's why I take ALL surveys with a grain of salt. Informative, but not necessarily unbiased or factual (either by incompetence or design).
That's my opinion, anyway.
Oh, btw, the APEAL study results are at the bottom of the page ...
http://autos.jdpower.com/research/MINI/Cooper/2012/Convertible/ratings.htm