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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the city is tougher on businesses than private residences. That is a hard hit bedroom community by foreclosures. If you have driven through there you will probably notice the much higher percentage of by domestic PU Trucks and SUVs than most of the county. Still crowded at the Costco store most of the time. Just an example. Some fancy homes were built in 2005 on the hillside near me. The starting price was $800k before all the flooring etc. Three have sold in the last 6 months by the bank under $650k. Making hard for me to sell my home there even with 5 acres.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I'd categorize "crappy" as in the bottom third against similar competition. Crappy models:

    Cobalt
    Aveo
    Impala
    Equinox
    G3
    G6
    Solstice
    Sky (but they look good)
    Astra

    Those are just off the top of my head, not as familiar with trucks and SUVs; feel free to pitch in.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    You forgot to include the HHR in the crappy category. Definitely a front runner for Turkey of the year in 2008 or 2009.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You forgot to include the HHR in the crappy category.

    I agree there. I rented one for a week in Alaska. I thought the Equinox in Hawaii was bad. The HHR is not something I would consider worth paying insurance on if someone gave it to me. The sad list goes on. I was a GM truck fan for nearly 20 years. I do not like what GM is building and selling as trucks. I would probably pick Ford that I think is ugly over a GM PU truck.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Add Yukon Denali. Falls apart even before 36K miles.

    Regards,
    OW
  • pmuscepmusce Member Posts: 132
    I *did* call it. GM doesn't want anyone to know where the bailout money is really going because it's all gong overseas to basically get the hell out of the U.S. when it comes to manufacturing. They say stuff in the press and lie through their teeth, but if the guys in China say they're going to be building them there, I know which newspapers to believe.

    Moral - only buy cars with a 1 as the first number in the VIN. Anything else is literally shipping dollars out of our economy and overseas.


    The Cruze will built in Lordstown, Ohio. It is also a world car and will be built in other plants around the world. Nothing wrong with that. GM just got the loan and you think they managed to build a plant in China? Things don't move that quickly. The Cruze will be in production in the next couple of months and for sale in many parts of the world. The delay for US production is because they are building an engine plant (in Michigan) that will supply the Cruze engines for the US version (1.4L DI Turbo).
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You claim there are about 40 crappy GM models. can you give specifics?

    Cobalt
    G5
    Aura
    Equinox
    Torrent
    G6
    Impala
    Colorado
    HHR
    Sierra
    Aveo
    G3
    Vibe (I don't like the Matrix either)
    Trailblazer (did that finally go away yet?)

    That's off the top of my head, with no research.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Per the GM restructuring plan

    U.S. Industry Outlook:
    - Downside
    2009 10.5 million
    2010 11.5
    2011 12.0
    2012 12.8
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Seems to me the lion's share of design work on the Camaro was done in Australia. I suppose the US-based powertrain crew would count for a few hundred jobs.

    Austrailia is in charge of the architecture. Truthfully I am not sure where the cut off is but I do know my brother here in the US is the design engineer of multiple exterior parts. He also has the same parts on other vehicles. The purchasing of parts is also done by people at the tech center. Validation is also at our Milford proving grounds.

    Here is GM's statement:

    Indeed, the 2010 Camaro exemplifies GM's global development process. The design concept originated in the United States; engineering was directed by GM's global rear-wheel-drive team in Australia; validation was conducted on roads around the world and assembly will take place at GM's award-winning Oshawa facility in Canada.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Reports: GM, Chrysler bailout deals bar strikes
    Friday January 9, 7:13 am ET
    Reports: General Motors, Chrysler federal bailout loans in default if union strikes


    DETROIT (AP) -- Newspaper reports say General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC would be in default of their multi-billion dollar federal bailouts if their workers go on strike and could be forced into bankruptcy.

    The Detroit Free Press and The Detroit News report Friday that the default is part of the deal GM signed with the Bush administration last month to get $13.4 billion in loans. The Detroit News reports Chrysler's loan deal has a similar provision.

    The United Auto Workers isn't a party to the deal and hasn't threatened a strike.

    The Free Press says if GM defaults on its loans, the U.S. Treasury Department could demand remand repayment and force GM into bankruptcy.

    The UAW and the automakers have a Feb. 17 deadline for concessions to lower labor costs.


    Interesting that the UAW is immune to things that affect the business and therefore the industry.

    Regards,
    OW
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    The design concept originated in the United States; engineering was directed by GM's global rear-wheel-drive team in Australia; validation was conducted on roads around the world and assembly will take place at GM's award-winning Oshawa facility in Canada.

    So basically the US part of the Camaro is...we thought of it. And maybe road-tested it here. They did the actual engineering design and assembly elsewhere.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For those that like to complain about the states offering incentives to non domestic auto makers. Michigan has just done the same for battery makers. So they are trying to entice companies back into Michigan. No different than the So States giving tax breaks to new industry.

    Not coincidentally, Michigan recently approved a $335 million package of tax breaks to encourage companies to build battery research and manufacturing facilities in the state

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/01/a123-systems-seeks-18-billion-f- - ederal-loan-for-ev-battery-factories-in-us.html
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    At least it's an American battery manufacturer.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    The company talked about is a US company. The state isn't offering money to a foreign company hoping to come in to undercut the US battery company and run them out of business.

    Indeed if the battery company needs new space for manufacturing, we have a large plant that's relatively new in Dayton Ohio area that vacant of its GM truck assembly. We also have some Delphi facilities that would work well for manufacturing! And I'm sure Moraine, Montgomery County, and the Great State of Ohio will offer lots of incentives to help a company new to the area manufacture batteries. We have Toyota Georgetown, Isuzu/Toyota Lafayette Indiana, Honda Marysville, GM Lordstown, Honda Indiana all a short delivery trip from our I-75/I-70 Crossroads of America location!!!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ohio needs to start a bidding war for those manufacturers. If you can just control the UAW from tainting the work force. I believe the Michigan offer is to any battery company foreign or domestic. The last I read it is a foreign company with the best chance for the Volt battery. A123 is hopeful they can get the contract. I think GM is trying to beat the battery makers down and waiting till the last minute to let the contracts.

    I also read that GM and Chrysler have requested $22 billion of the alternative energy money, from the $25 billion pool. That sounds shaky to me. If they were to give a couple billion to A123, that would not leave much for alternative fuel research. Battery cars are so far in the future to replace the internal combustion engine, that it would be a mistake to dump all the resources into that pot.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043

    The design concept originated in the United States; engineering was directed by GM's global rear-wheel-drive team in Australia; validation was conducted on roads around the world and assembly will take place at GM's award-winning Oshawa facility in Canada.

    So basically the US part of the Camaro is...we thought of it. And maybe road-tested it here. They did the actual engineering design and assembly elsewhere.


    No, it is "engineering is directed" by the folks in Austrailia. I thought I mentioned that my brother, who lives here in the US, has parts on the car. Holden designed/developed the architecture for the Zetas. For the Camaro the parts that are not common with all the Zeta are designed here. The Camaro styling was done at design staff here in the US.

    The VLE (Vehicle Line Executive) is in Austrailia which owns all of the zetas/RWD vehicles. They "direct" the process and make decisions at a high level. Gene Stefanyshyn is the VLE (global RWD and performance cars) who moved to Austrailia to lead the team. Only one of the 5 people directly reporting to him actually lives in Austrailia. The other 5 are here. Out of the 20 other members who do not report directly to him only 3 are in Austrailia. The VLD (Vehicle Line Director) of the Camaro does work and live in the US.

    Wagoner CEO US
    Bob Lutz Global Product Development US
    Jonathan J Lauckner Global Program Management US
    Gene Stefanyshyn Vehicle Line Executive RWD and Performance AUS
    John Santilli Vehicle Line Director Camaro US
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You forgot to include the HHR in the crappy category. Definitely a front runner for Turkey of the year in 2008 or 2009.

    I thought about the HHR, but since I defined "crappy" as in the bottom third against the competition and I only saw the PT Cruiser as similar (and that's crappy too!) I didn't include it. If you include small wagons like the small Volvo wagon, the Mazda 5, etc., then the HHR would be crappy as well.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Add Yukon Denali. Falls apart even before 36K miles.

    OK, so by defining "crappy" as in the bottom third against the competition, the following is the updated list. Any others? Particularly need help with the SUVs and Trucks as I am unfamiliar. What about Buicks? What about the bigger Caddys? Gary, you said UAW made a lousy truck for you - was that one in the bottom third?

    Didn't somebody say that GM has about 40 nameplate models? We have 20 names on the list so far, which would be 50% if the 40 number is accurate.

    So for Dave's original question on which vehicles are crappy, here's the current list. Everybody feel free to agree or disagree:

    HHR
    Yukon Denali
    Cobalt
    Aveo
    Impala
    Equinox
    G3
    G6
    Solstice (but looks good)
    Sky (but looks good)
    H2 (I'll add this one and the next one)
    H3
    Astra
    G5
    Aura
    Torrent
    Colorado
    Sierra
    Vibe
    Trailblazer
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    HHR - I like it better than the PT Cruiser. The HHR at least resembles an old Chevy. The PT Cruiser reminds me more of a 1937 Ford than any past Mopar product,

    Aveo - My Mom has one and has no problems with it.

    Impala - What the heck is wrong with the Impala?

    Aura - isn't this the Saturn clone of the excellent Malibu?

    Vibe - Isn't this a Toyota Matrix in disguise?

    Trailblazer - Dead
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Aura - isn't this the Saturn clone of the excellent Malibu?

    Vibe - Isn't this a Toyota Matrix in disguise?


    The Aura was the beta version of the Malibu. This year (as Saturn is about to disappear) it finally catches up to the Malibu.

    The Vibe's interior is awful compared to the Matrix (at least in the previous generation, haven't seen the current model). The current version of the Vibe/Matrix has gotten lukewarm reviews.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    HHR - I like it better than the PT Cruiser. The HHR at least resembles an old Chevy. The PT Cruiser reminds me more of a 1937 Ford than any past Mopar product,

    I agree it's better than the PT Cruiser. However, that leaves a LOT of cars that it ISN"T better than.

    Aveo - My Mom has one and has no problems with it. Congrats to your mom. It's still worse than the Yaris, Fit, Versa, Rio, and Accent.

    Impala - What the heck is wrong with the Impala?
    Nothing if you're a cop, I guess. Other than that though, the Taurus, Avalon, Accord, 300C, etc are a lot better.

    Aura - isn't this the Saturn clone of the excellent Malibu?
    I'm not sure about this..is it the clone of this gen or last gen? I know the Aura is missing some features on the Malibu (Satellite radio comes to mind). I know the Pontiac G6 is based on the last gen Malibu, not the current one.

    Vibe - Isn't this a Toyota Matrix in disguise?
    Yeah. So? That sucks too. :shades:

    Trailblazer - Dead
    Thank God. :)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Rode in an HHR during vacation. It had a great feel and seemed to ride like it was on rails. And this was a rental, usually what people use to evaluate a GM product and then extrapolate that all models XXX are bad because the rental was low end costwise. But this had a good feel, and I was thinking I might pick up one of these as a used rental at a local dealer if I need to buy another car quickly some day.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Aura - isn't this the Saturn clone of the excellent Malibu?
    I'm not sure about this..is it the clone of this gen or last gen? I know the Aura is missing some features on the Malibu (Satellite radio comes to mind).
    I know the Pontiac G6 is based on the last gen Malibu, not the current one. :confuse:


    Aura has XM satellite radio as standard.

    G6, old Malibu, Aura are all based on Epsilon I architecture. The Opel Insignia and the new LaCrosse are based on the slightly larger Epsilson II architecture.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    A friend of mine bought a base model LT (?) when they first came out. I think he paid something like 13 grand for it, with a stick. That is one hell of a bargain. Now, this was beyond bare bones, which meant weak radio, crank windows, thinly padded seats, I don't even think it had A/C, but for the money it was a ton of car.

    I would have bought one myself if it had AWD and better seats. :shades:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM’s E-Flex system is the same that will power the highly anticipated Chevrolet Volt range-extending electric vehicle, but don’t expect the Cadillac concept to be just some boring four-door. Cadillac gave its designers free range on the new concept, resulting in a highly stylized – and extremely fuel efficient –two-door coupe.

    According to Businessweek, the Caddy concept will be smaller than the current CTS sedan and will have looks even “bolder” than the upcoming CTS coupe. One GM executive even told Businessweek the car’s styling will make “people want it regardless of the energy source.”


    http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-e-flex-coupe-concept.html

    image
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    One GM executive even told Businessweek the car’s styling will make “people want it regardless of the energy source.”

    Ahhhhh, there's that cocky, arrogant attitude that we've come to know and love... :lemon:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    In a bid to increase loan money for car sales:

    General Motors today launched a nationwide test program that gives 90 million credit union members access to the company's Credit Union Member Discount Program with participating GM dealers.

    The "Invest in America" program also gives members access to financing on new-vehicle purchases.

    This follows a four-state Midwest program GM began early last month. The expanded program now encompasses nearly 8,000 credit unions nationwide. It makes a credit union member discount available for eligible new-vehicle purchases as well as more than $80 billion in credit union low-cost auto loans.

    Mark LaNeve, GM vice president of North America sales, service and marketing, said in a statement: "We've had very positive responses from our dealers to the four-state Midwest credit union pilot that is currently running.

    Jim Bunnell, executive director of GM's channel support group, said the program includes almost all 2008 and 2009 models, except for the Corvette and medium-duty trucks.

    According to a Datatrac survey of more than 17,000 financial institutions, the average credit union loan rate is 5.4 percent, compared with 6.9 percent for the average bank rate the past two months, the Michigan Credit Union League said in a press statement.

    The Web site for the program, lovemycreditunion.org, yielded about 1.3 million hits, Bunnell said.

    "And based on the prospects who came into the credit union and asked for an authorization code to get the discount, 30 percent of those ended up buying a GM vehicle," he said. "So that's a high conversion number and a good success rate."

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If you want to see specific areas hit the link.

    General Motors Corp. announced today that it set a new company record for vehicle sales in Asia Pacific in 2008. Its sales in the region rose 2.7 percent from the previous year to 1,475,093 units. A further 766,400 vehicles and 599,080 complete knockdown (CKD) vehicle sets were exported from the region to other parts of the world.

    http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gm- news/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=2&docid=51194
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    * GME president Carl- Peter Forster: “a success in difficult times”
    * GM sales in Europe reach 2.04 million vehicles in 2008, with a market share of 9.3 percent
    * Chevrolet breaks through 500,000 sales volume
    * Opel sets sales record in Central and Eastern Europe, with volume up 13 percent
    * All-new Opel/Vauxhall Insignia wins European Car of the Year 2009 and has excellent start with nearly 44,000 orders

    Insignia is on the Epsilon II architecture which is also in the new LaCrosse. Insignia was to be the next Aura but now? Perhaps the G6? Keep the G8 and Sky and quite a line up. Or bring the Insignia over as the new Malibu? Might be a bit too sporty for a Chevy.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Great vehicles coming out, award winning vehicles, sales up overseas! So I guess the crisis is over, GM won't ask for any more loans, and they'll start paying the loans back in 2010! ;)

    It just seems like a few short weeks ago that GM was saying they'd have to close the doors, as no one in the private sector was willing to loan GM $. Doh - it was just a few short weeks ago!

    So which story GM is pushing is right? It seems GM is presenting 2-face stories.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "Little Miss can't be wrong" - Spin Doctors. It's being played on many forums, including Edmunds. ;)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Here is what I believe was said. Not sure what you heard but if you get all your input from the internet forums I can see why you are confused.

    In December GM said they did not have enough liquidity to pay their bills here in the US. If they did not pay their bills they would have to go bankrupt. Now that they have the loan they are paying their bills. They do seem to have a lot of award winning vehicles coming out. Sales are up overseas. They have said they do not plan on asking for anymore money. Where did you read the loans would be paid back in 2010? Per the restructuring plan:

    Assuming the lower, depressed industry volumes under the Downside scenario, GM would make full use of the $18 billion temporary Federal loan facilities through most of 2012. While not shown, Downside industry volumes in 2013 are projected at 13.5 million units. Under this Downside Scenario, the company would expect to begin partial repayment of the temporary Federal loan facilities in 2012.

    They have said all along that the issue is in the US only. Overseas they have increasing sales and the end of the year sales confirms that sales are increasing overseas.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    So far, same news as the last few decades:

    According to data from Edmunds.com, the Detroit Three lost a collective total of 3.7 points of market share in 2008. Chrysler led the group, ceding 1.9 points of share (from 12.9 percent of the market in 2007 to 11 percent in 2008). GM lost 1.4 percent (from 23.8 percent in 2007 to 22.4 percent). Ford gave back 0.4 points of share (from 15.5 percent to 15.1 percent for 2008).

    Meanwhile, the three automakers who comprise the rest of the U.S. "Big Six" - Toyota Motor Corp, Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. and Honda Motor Co. Ltd. - all gained market share in 2008, despite their own heavy declines in actual sales volume.

    Toyota picked up a half-point of share (16.3 percent of the market in 2007 to 16.8 percent in 2008), Nissan gained 0.6 percent (from 6.6 percent to 7.2 percent of the market) and Honda grabbed an extra 1.2 percent of market share (from 9.7 percent in 2007 to 10.9 percent for 2008).

    The totals, then, maintained Detroit's decades-long giveaway of market share: in 2008, Detroit slid from owning 52.2 percent of U.S. auto sales to 48.5 percent.

    The three largest Japanese automakers gained 2.3 percent of market share in 2008 (from 2007's 32.6 percent to 34.9 percent for 2008), leaving 1.4 percent to be distributed among the smaller automakers.


    Long road ahead, indeed.

    Regards,
    OW
  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    Personally, I like the HHR, especially the SS. Just wish it was built with higher quality materials (like the Malibu), a tad bit larger in all dimensions, the windshield wasn't so short, had a console, and the A-pillars weren't 11" thick. Oh, yeah, wish it was built here in the States. Other than that, it's a nice auto with fairly decent gas mileage and cargo area. If I were in the market, it would be on my short list, but close to the bottom of said list. And like you said, AWD would be great.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Aveo - My Mom has one and has no problems with it.

    Impala - What the heck is wrong with the Impala?


    Issue is not whether there is something wrong with it. Issue is whether it is in the bottom third of currently offered models in that class. Aveo is at the bottom compared with Fit, Yaris, Versa, Mini Cooper -- just to name four tiny cars. It might be better than the Smart.

    Impala - not as good as Camry, Accord, Sonata, Optima, etc.

    My 66 VW Beetle was reliable and got me from A to B. So was it crappy if nothing was wrong with it? In today's market it would be crappy.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Rode in an HHR during vacation. It had a great feel and seemed to ride like it was on rails

    No offense, but LOL. Maybe if you are used to the big land yachts. Try driving a BMW, Audi, or even a VW.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I'm confused - are you saying that Caddy is going to have a model named Volt, or that the Chevy Volt would be used as a basis for a similar but more upscale Cadillac vehicle?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Didn't know we were building BMWs. As far as the VW models you mentioned, a friend had a VW. Windows fell into the doors, it had a check engine light that came on for years. It spent more time at the dealer than it spent on the road during the time they owned it before trading it. Even the closer Cincinnati dealer wouldn't work on it for him. Had to drive 50 miles.

    >No offense, but LOL. Maybe if you are used to the big land yachts.

    Not sure why you're trying to ridicule that I thought one would be good for a third car, but if it's okay with the forum...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    AFAIR Ford has had fairly steady market share for the last decade or so, is that correct? I think GM and Chrysler have led most of the D3 market share declines over the past 10 years.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    As far as the VW models you mentioned, a friend had a VW. Windows fell into the doors, it had a check engine light that came on for years.

    I was amused that you thought the HHR rode like on rails. Compared to land yachts but not to any decent handling car. It was not a comment on reliability, etc.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The article shows a smaller Cadillac using the same eflex EV system used on the Volt. Not really new news since GM has already announced there will be a fleet of vehicles using it. Just we see a concept vehicle. I would say that by 2012 Cadillac will have an evolt based vehicle. Probably a couple more models also soon after that.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    It would still be great if Caddy could build a premium smaller car like the 3 series. The CTS is nice but there is room for a TSX/Jetta/older A4 sized vehicle and there are really no choices from the D3 in that segment. Something like an upgraded BTS or baby CTS.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Very true. But perhaps a e-volt could be it? Lots of power. But perhaps a bit expensive for the first version.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    If the HHR handles like it's on rails, that is one train wreck ride I don't want to be on!

    The interior materials are chrysler-esqe = horrid!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    Didn't they give high remarks for the SS version, though? As far as cornering, etc.? I hardly see any SSs on the road. See loads of LTs.

    I agree, the interior materials are quite cheesy. Perhaps the next generation will be better, more upscale. I like the vehicle but demand a little bit more creature comforts.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Matt Lauer questioned Gettlefinger and Wagoner side by side yesterday morning on the Today show. The joint responses were that UAW wages are already on par with the foreign companies operating in America and that the 4 yr contract was not going to be opened up. They also said that the work rules are currently optimized for corporate profitability.

    When they compared wages, they were probably factoring things to say there was equality.
    Those factors could have been bonuses at the transplants added top their wages, cost of living differences between Rpley WV and Troy Michigan, and benefits like pensions were excluded.

    Sounds like the union is not giving another dime. They said they already gave with VEBA.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    You claim there are about 40 crappy GM models. can you give specifics?

    Cobalt
    G5
    Aura
    Equinox
    Torrent
    G6
    Impala
    Colorado
    HHR
    Sierra
    Aveo
    G3
    Vibe (I don't like the Matrix either)
    Trailblazer (did that finally go away yet?)

    That's off the top of my head, with no research
    .

    And the specifics are?????????????????
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    bottom third?
    so 33% unemployment would be your target for our economy if you were in Obama's position? That would leave crappy people out on the street?
    In what category?
    sales?
    price?
    warranty?
    Specifics were asked for, otherwise you are doing exactly what I accused this site of constantly doing.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    GM incorporates the overseas entities so they can go bankrupt just in the US separately to kill the union.

    2nd worst job loss year since 1945. Where's the problem with the D3 market share going over to Japan?
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